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BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?

GUEST,M.Ted 25 Feb 06 - 05:10 PM
Little Hawk 25 Feb 06 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,GREG_TRUE 25 Feb 06 - 04:46 PM
bobad 25 Feb 06 - 04:38 PM
bobad 25 Feb 06 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,M.Ted 25 Feb 06 - 04:06 PM
Little Hawk 25 Feb 06 - 01:49 PM
Grab 25 Feb 06 - 11:26 AM
bobad 25 Feb 06 - 07:43 AM
GUEST,When will they ever lean 25 Feb 06 - 01:56 AM
GUEST,Jimminy 25 Feb 06 - 01:55 AM
GUEST,Jack O 25 Feb 06 - 01:53 AM
GUEST,Bob Hope 25 Feb 06 - 01:52 AM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 06 - 11:28 PM
M.Ted 24 Feb 06 - 10:32 PM
bobad 24 Feb 06 - 07:06 PM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 06 - 06:41 PM
TheBigPinkLad 24 Feb 06 - 05:52 PM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 06 - 05:42 PM
TheBigPinkLad 24 Feb 06 - 05:38 PM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 06 - 05:31 PM
M.Ted 24 Feb 06 - 05:25 PM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 06 - 05:22 PM
bobad 24 Feb 06 - 05:15 PM
Clinton Hammond 24 Feb 06 - 05:11 PM
TheBigPinkLad 24 Feb 06 - 05:08 PM
Clinton Hammond 24 Feb 06 - 04:59 PM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 06 - 04:53 PM
TheBigPinkLad 24 Feb 06 - 04:41 PM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 06 - 04:39 PM
TheBigPinkLad 24 Feb 06 - 04:38 PM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 06 - 04:35 PM
TheBigPinkLad 24 Feb 06 - 04:13 PM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 06 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,TIA 24 Feb 06 - 03:58 PM
GUEST 24 Feb 06 - 03:50 PM
Little Hawk 24 Feb 06 - 03:00 PM
Grab 24 Feb 06 - 01:45 PM
LilyFestre 24 Feb 06 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,TIA 24 Feb 06 - 12:14 PM
bobad 24 Feb 06 - 11:44 AM
Grab 24 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM
Deckman 23 Feb 06 - 05:56 PM
M.Ted 23 Feb 06 - 05:08 PM
Little Hawk 23 Feb 06 - 12:17 AM
GUEST,M.Ted 23 Feb 06 - 12:01 AM
Little Hawk 22 Feb 06 - 11:58 PM
GUEST,TIA 22 Feb 06 - 11:11 PM
GUEST,TIA 22 Feb 06 - 11:01 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 05:10 PM

You never were specific about what you considered to be "alternative" medicine.

You went on at length about double-blind studies. As is pointed out in the abstract I posted above, they aren't the be-all and end-all when it comes to treating an individual patient. They are the basis for a statistical assessment of certain types of medical treatment, mostly pharmaceauticals--many accepted medical procedures have not been subjected to double-blind studies, and, for a variety of reasons(also in the abstract above) many cannot be--


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:56 PM

Laughter is definitely a powerful healer. So is smiling a lot, they tell me.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,GREG_TRUE
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:46 PM

Pardon me if I digress... Spaw has again proved to me that laughter is good medicine. I've been moody due to the season ya know. And now, at least for a while I'm feelin alright about life because I read a Spaw Story.
However, I want to testify to the power of the electric blanket and heating pad. Okay, we all know that heat is therapeutic. But I got to believe, in my case, that my electric blanket, which I only used while sleeping this winter, might be what has given a measure of relief to my aches all day long.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:38 PM

M.Ted

I don't recall making any specific comments about homeopathy but in regards to so-called alternative therapies I do not categorically refute any of them, I would just like to see the claims made by their proponents backed up by solid research.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:27 PM

With due respect to your belief in faith healing LH, I believe you misinterpreted the conclusions of the arthroscopy study. The authors of said study concluded that the results of the procedures for the specific condition studied were no better than placebo, to quote "Conclusions: In this controlled trial involving patients with osteoarthritis of the knee, the outcomes after arthroscopic lavage or arthroscopic debridement were no better than those after a placebo procedure." This conclusion is at considerable variance with that of saying that the placebo group were cured.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/347/2/81


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:06 PM

With due respect, Grab and bobad, what you say about Homeopathy is not true--homeopathic remedies fare quite well in double-bind and other scientific studies--the mechanisms may not be clear, but the results are--here is an example--the occasional grammatical oddness are because the site is in German--http://www.mtec-ag.de/1_3_1_3.asp?lang=eng



The proof of effectivity by Leipzig University

Professor Karen Nieber, head of the institute for pharmacy at Leipzig University, set about proving that homeopathy does not work and at the most can be explained by the so-called placebo effect. It was whilst looking for a test arrangement which totally excluded any placebo effect that she came up with the following idea: she placed a rat intestines in a nutrient solution and fixed it using organic threads to a sensor in order to measure the reduction of the intestines through contraction. She then added a stimulant to the nutrient solution, which caused a strong contraction of the rat intestines.

Professor Karen Nieber, as a pharmacologist, expected that the treatment with a homeopathic agent with a potenz above C12 would have no effect against the enterospasms, since there are no more active agents present above this potenz. In order to make the degree of dilution apprehensible: a C14 is like a single drop in all the worlds' oceans together!

In Leipzig they then added Belladonna D90 to the nutrient solution with the rat intestines cramped through the stimulant they had added and lo and behold, the enterospasms ceased immediately, the measuring device registered the relaxation of the intestines.

What Hahnemann declared two hundred years ago in order to defend his homeopathy may also apply to the Leipzig study:

"I don't demand any belief in it, nor require that someone understands it. Even I don't understand it; but enough, the facts are so and not otherwise. Only the experience says it, which I believe more than my own comprehension."


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:49 PM

That's fascinating stuff, Grab, and it suggests one thing very strongly to me....and that one thing could turn our entire materialistically-minded civilization on its head, if taken seriously and acted upon. Namely...

the most crucial factor in both illness and healing may be consciousness, not outer physical factors. Consciousness and belief may in fact be the most powerful healing forces there are, and the tragedy of modern man may be that he already HAS the conscious ability to heal himself by his own belief and control over his own body, but he has unwittingly surrendered that ability by NOT believing he can heal himself or control his own body to heal itself!

Given that situation, a sceptic is his own worst enemy, because he has already decided that he is powerless without artificial outer assistance.

This is the central matter to Jesus' teachings in the New Testament, as regards healing, that people are healed BY their own belief...that they have the power if only they believe.

I say that not as a Christian, trying to convert you...I'm not technically a Christian or any other religion....I say it because I find it fascinating that the experiments you describe in your post (where people were healed by believing that a placebo was the real thing) indicate only one thing: that what Jesus said was correct. Their belief was what healed them.

In other words, their body-mind already HAD the innate ability to heal the problem, but their mind had to give conscious assent to a supposed outer mechanism...their mind had to have confidence in that mechanism...before their body-mind would put itself effectively in gear and DO the healing!

That's revolutionary. That could change everything. As long as people believe themselves to be helpless, they will be. As such, they'll be at the mercy of some outside agent to "heal" them...if they can find one they have any confidence in. It's a shame, really, because they could do it themselves if they only believed they could.

And that's why Jesus said basically this: "Ye are gods and sons of the most high. All the things I have done, you can do these and greater." (!) That is not the line taken by most of his supposed followers, who would rather turn him into an exclusive idol and worship it...than unlock the incredible power that lies sleeping within themselves and BE like him.

I believe that consciousness is the most crucial factor in good health and in healing. Ironically enough, though, I'm not all that good at managing consciousness myself. I know a fair number of people who are definitely better at it than I am. I've noticed that the people who are best at managing their consciousness are the ones who are most effective in life, most energetic, and least often struck down by illness. That figures. They are strenthened from within by their state of mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Grab
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 11:26 AM

I find the deliberate false use of the term placebo unfair at the least. A placebo is not a cure, it is simply something given a patient to humour them. Sometimes -- not often at all -- just sometimes, temporary relief of symptoms occurs.

BPL, that's not the case. The unscrupulous *may* prescribe pills containing no active ingredients to humour their "patients" - homeopathy for one - but the placebo effect is well-known, well-documented and something that anyone interested in things medical needs to know about.

The effect isn't just temporary, and it isn't "just sometimes". There's plenty of evidence for people getting real benefits from placebos, right up to an outright cure. This clearly works best on things that the brain has direct control over - placebos for pain medication are a classic - but it's present in many other places too.

Want to hear something really wild? There's placebo effect in surgery too! They got some volunteers who needed a knee op doing - half of them got the real op; half of them were just opened up and stitched back together. Now the odd bit is that a significant number of the ones who *didn't* get the real op got all the benefits of it. I first heard about this through NewScientist, but this link has details.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 07:43 AM

Why Double-Blind Studies?

Although most people have heard of double-blind studies, few recognize their true significance. It's not that double-blind studies are hard to understand; rather, that their consequences are difficult to accept. Why? Because double-blind studies tell us that we can't trust our direct personal experience. This isn't easy to swallow, but it's nonetheless true.

The insights provided by double-blind studies have been particularly disturbing for alternative medicine. Most alternative medicine methods are grounded in tradition, common sense, anecdote, and testimonial. On the surface, these seem like perfectly good sources of information. However, double-blind studies have shown us otherwise. We now know that a host of "confounding factors" can easily create a kind of optical illusion, causing the appearance of efficacy where none in fact exists. The double-blind study is thus much more than a requirement for absolute proof of efficacy (as is commonly supposed) - it is a necessity for knowing almost anything about whether a treatment really works.

http://www.mendosa.com/bratman.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,When will they ever lean
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:56 AM

...to the regiment...!


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,Jimminy
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:55 AM

What in tarnation


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,Jack O
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:53 AM

I'll leave it to your own devices


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,Bob Hope
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:52 AM

woooooooooooo!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 11:28 PM

I don't think I've ever been conscious of whether any medical procedure I considered trying (conventional OR alternative) had been subjected to double-blind studies or not, bobad. ;-) I guess that's just not the first question or even the tenth question that pops into my mind when considering such things....

What I usually do if I'm interested in a medical procedure (conventional OR alternative) is, I read up on it from various sources, compare and evaluate what they say about it, and I talk to people I know personally who might know about it or be familiar with it. Then I search my own reasoning powers and my own gut feeling as to what to do next. This usually seems to work well. I trust my own judgement, and I am naturally cautious by nature. That nature certainly served me well in my youth, since I did not have one bad drug experience during my entire youth or since, did not get addicted to anything, had no alcohol problems and did not smoke...all on the basis of my own good judgement.

If I was smart enough to avoid those common pitfalls that the vast majority of people my age fell into without hesitation in the 60's and 70's, I figure I'm smart enough to avoid harmful or useless therapeutic methods as well.

In other words, I trust my OWN opinion, and the opinions of people I personally know and respect, not the opinion of some official special interest group with an axe to grind...whether it be the FDA or the AMA or the National Association of Psychic Healers or whoever the hell it is.

I don't let them decide for me. I decide.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 10:32 PM

First question of course, is, what do you mean by "alternative therapies"? In fact, all the currently accepted therapies were, at the time they were developed and introduced, alternative therapies. In fact,many of the therapies that we regard as miraculous and lifesaving, were met with skepticism of such degree that the developers had difficulty finding a forum to present their evidence--

bobad, you would be horrified to know that a significant percentage of the commonly used medical procedures have not been subjected to double blind studies--or to any efficacy evaluations at all.
The doctor who made the "if it works, do it" comment I related above,also said that, in his field, which is one of the largest medical specialties, only about 1/3 of the procedures had been scientifically verified.

Here the answer to your question, bobab not from me but in an abstract from October 2002, Vol 92, No. 10 American Journal of Public Health : Diversity, the Individual, and Proof of Efficacy: Complementary and Alternative Medicine in Medical Education byConstance M. Park, MD, PhD.


Patients will always have access to a variety of possibly effective, but unproved, therapies directed at maintaining health or treating illness. And there will always be complex, potentially therapeutic regimens that cannot be adequately tested for financial, ethical, or methodological reasons. Furthermore, even after adequate study of a given regimen, there will always be the fundamental uncertainty of medical practice: the fact that epidemiological research produces probabilistic results that cannot predict with certainty the best treatment for the single unique patient before us.

The exploration of complementary and alternative medicine topics in the medical school curriculum helps to elucidate the complex and uncertain nature of medical practice, sharpens skills for clinical decisionmaking, increases cultural sensitivity, and provides ideas for future research.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 07:06 PM

I think most sceptics would more readily accept the claims made by 'alternative' therapies if they were subjected to the scrutiny of the commonly accepted evaluation methodology of the double blind study. Do those of you who readily accept anecdotal evidence ever question why they are not ?


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 06:41 PM

I wouldn't mind, if it were not for the main establishment making so many unwarranted attacks on alternative therapies...and not to protect the public (in my opinion), but to guard its own financial turf.

Regarding altruism, alternative therapists run the gamut on that. Some are altruistic, some are not. Some are just in it for the money, others are genuinely in it to help people. Some are well-informed, others are cranks. You have to judge each case on its own merits, I guess, and go by word of mouth of the part of people you know as to whether a therapy worked for them. That's a good start, anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:52 PM

Fair enough. But stand back and think; are the promoters of 'alternative therapies' altruists? No likely, is it? And at least the conventional therapies are required to prove what they claim, efficacy aside. There is no such requirement for the other stuff. Ripe for exploitation I'd say.

I'm all for promoting anything that leads to a healthier lifestyle, (bring on tax exemption for gym membership!) but I'm really fearful that scarce health care resources will be squandered on rewarding practitioners of unproven therapies when they should be directed at the poor and the sick.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:48 PM

The fact is, most people just line up instinctively on one side or the other when it comes to this sort of thing. Their opinions are formed in the twitch of a bent knee. Some people instinctively oppose almost anything that is not officially sanctioned by the most authoritative structures at the top of their society. In other words, they favour the conventional approach. (they trust 'daddy')

Other people do the exact opposite. (they don't trust 'daddy')

And that is what drives the endless debates here. Not facts, not evidence, not much real experience, just basic differences in individual human psychology...the lover of conventionality versus the rebel against conventionality.

You can see the same folks lining up predictably on the 2 sides of centreline just like in a hockey game...the moment any discusssion is launched.

The same goes for most political debates.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:42 PM

I'm making an assumption... ;-) I don't know Barrett personally, so my assumption is based on a general impression, just like Clinton's assumptions about most forms of alternative therapy.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:38 PM

Excellent examples of the ad hominem fallacy.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:31 PM

Barrett, I suspect, is a well-paid agent of the pharmaceutical/medical industry and his only real mission is to destroy any possible competition that would threaten their monopoly on health care. He is one of many such agents. They hide behind the mask of medical conventionality like a political fanatic hides behind the flag of his country.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:25 PM

Barrett uses abusive language that is not a part of scientific or medical discussions--he uses the word "quack" a lot, for instance--This word is not used in the scientific review of anything that I am familiar with--he uses the word "fake" a lot, as well--moreover, he uses these words exclusively in connection with alternative therapies, such as Chiropracty, Homeopathy, Accupuncture, Osteopathy, and the like.

Notwithstanding the comments of some here, there is a substantial body of medical evidence that these approaches to treatment have merit. There is a growing body of evidence that suggests that, for a variety of conditions, these treatments have higher positive outcomes, lower treatment costs, and fewer adverse results than conventional treatments. For that reason, conventional medical institutions are integrating these approaches into their programs--Barrett's response to this is that they are naive.

Barrett's approach is review by epithet--he doesn't talk like a doctor or a scientist, he talks like an exorcist--to him, alternative therapies are not legitimate medical therapies, they are manifestations of evil, and he rejects anything that establishes their legitimacy, no matter how well founded, and accepts anything negative, no matter how dubious--

The truest proof of his motives is the proof of omission--he says nothing whatsoever about conventional medical practices--


An example:

The fourth most common type of cancer is pancreatic cancer. The most common surgical procedure used for it is called "Whipple's Operation". The mortality rate for this surgery, in the high volume medical centers, such as Johns Hopkins, that specialize in it, is about 5%--however, the same procedure, in the average, low volume, local hospital, the mortality rate is 20% or higher.
(one in five, the odds at Russian Roulette being one in six)

Does Barrett call the practitioners in these hospitals quacks? Fakes? Murders?--No, he doesn't. He doesn't say a word. Because it isn't important to him.

There certainly are people who pose as "alternative therapy" healers who are not qualified in any way to administer medical care--but the same in mainstream, conventional, medicine. It is a mistake to judge either type of treatment by the incompetent, unqualified, or simply opportunistic, who pose as healers.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:22 PM

And how do you know the World isn't hollow, Clinton? ;-)

I mean, hell, I don't tend to think it's hollow either, but what do I base that on? Just the general stuff I've heard most of my life, nothing else whatsoever. Neither you nor I actually has a clue whether or not the World is hollow, but we assume it isn't because that's what our culture has told us since we were kids. We've been given a general impression about something that no one can actually show us directly.

We assume a very great deal of what we think we know. I would guess, about 75% of it, in fact. Maybe more. The only stuff we KNOW is stuff we have seen with our own eyes and touched with our own hands and proven beyond any shadow of a doubt by direct experience.

In my mother's case, she now knows that the bracelet is helping her...but not why. That's good enough for her. I do not expect it to convince anyone else. Only our own personal experience will ever convince you, me, or anyone else of anything at the deepest level of their belief and knowledge of life.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:15 PM

A historical perspective of the popular use of electric and magnetic therapy.

Basford JR.

Department of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, Mayo Clinic and Foundation, Rochester, MN 55902, USA.

OBJECTIVES: To review the history of the therapeutic use of static electric and magnetic fields and to understand its implications for current popular and medical acceptance of these and other alternative and complementary therapies. DATA SOURCES: Comprehensive MEDLINE (1960-2000) and CINAHL (1982-2000) computer literature searches by using key words such as electricity, magnetism, electromagnetic, therapy, medicine, EMF, history of medicine, and fields. Additional references were obtained from the bibliographies of the selected articles. In addition, discussions were held with curators of medical history museums and supplemental searches were made of Internet sources through various search engines. STUDY SELECTION: Primary references were used whenever possible. In a few instances, secondary references, particularly those requiring translations of early texts, were used. DATA SYNTHESIS: The use of electric and magnetic forces to treat disease has intrigued the general public and the scientific community since at least the time of the ancient Greeks. The popularity of these therapies has waxed and waned over the millennia, but at all times the popular imagination, often spurred by dynamic and colorful practitioners of pseudoscience, has been more excited than the medical or political establishment. In fact, a pattern seems to reappear. In each era, unsophisticated public acceptance is met first with medical disdain, then with investigation, and, finally, with a failure to find objective evidence of efficacy. This pattern continues today with the public acceptance of magnetic therapy (and alternative and complementary medicine in general) far outstripping acceptance by the medical community. CONCLUSION: The therapeutic implications of applying electrical and magnetic fields to heal disease have continually captured the popular imagination. Approaches thousands of years apart can be remarkably similar, but, in each era, proof has been lacking and the prevailing medical establishment has remained unconvinced. Interest persists today. Although these agents may have a future role in the healing of human disease, their history and a minimal scientific rationale makes it unlikely that the dichotomy between the hopes of the public and the medical skepticism will disappear.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:11 PM

"I will concede that there are those who insist it works."

Some people think the world is hollow, too....


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 05:08 PM

The world is littered in anecdotal reports of cures.

I've read translations of Chinese texts on acupuncture. I read them when I knew nothing about the procedure. They seemed to me to be reiterations of ancient lore based on poor understanding of how the human body actually functions. I will concede that there are those who insist it works.

I find the deliberate false use of the term placebo unfair at the least. A placebo is not a cure, it is simply something given a patient to humour them. Sometimes -- not often at all -- just sometimes, temporary relief of symptoms occurs.

My sincere best wishes to your mum.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:59 PM

And because you type it here, we should believe it why?

Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence...

Find me reputable science that discusses the benefits of these magnetic scams, and I'll happily examine it...

I'm not gonna hold my breath


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:53 PM

Hmm. Well, I've had it used as an aneasthetic, and it seemed to work rather well, but the demonstration I was really impressed by was seeing it used on an ex-girlfriend to help cure various serious food allergies she had. It definitely worked for that, and nothing else had worked prior to using acupuncture. That convinced me it was real.

There are plenty of Chinese texts that explain how it works, but only those who already believe in it can be bothered to read them, I've noticed.

Regarding the magnetic bracelets....my mother decided to try one as of yesterday. She has been using it for about the past 24 hours to treat a sore and weak wrist and right hand that had been bothering her for months. Result: within about 2 hours of her putting on the bracelet much of the soreness was relieved, and she is now able to make a proper fist with that hand, closing the fingers properly...for the first time in several months.

Hell of a good placebo, isn't it? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:41 PM

No.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:39 PM

Excellent. I'm glad to hear that. Did you find it useful in any way?


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:38 PM

I've had acupuncture, if you're asking me.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:35 PM

It's just dreadful not knowing how or why something works, isn't it? ;-) Well, just deny it out of hand then, and you'll feel much better about the whole thing.

Ever had acupuncture?


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:13 PM

I do know of one MD who is doing experimental work with whole-body magnetics on a few serious medical problems, and they have had encouraging results. They do not know how it works, but the theory is that the forces, (if used on a large scale so that only one polarity is passing across the body in one area), seem to disrupt dysfunctional cells by realigning the tiny metal ions contained within the cells, and that with some conditions that disruption is very helpful.   It's a bit like electro-shock in theory. Shouldn't necessarily work, but is very helpful to some people.

Wow. That's even better than the pseudo-science-babble I contributed.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 04:12 PM

Yes, it appears that a single polarity magnetic field (north in the northern hemisphere) has some kind of beneficial effect on the body. This may be simply because it does the same thing the planet's magnetic field does in normally attuning the body, but it strenthens the local effect.

The vital thing about any form of treatment is:

1. does it work?

2. does it produce any harmful side effects?

Antibiotics definitely work for certain things. They also produce a great many harmful side effects, since they kill off friendly micro-organisms that are required for a well functioning digestive tract. This encourages the development of Candida and a host of unpleasant symptoms and illnesses. You can take more drugs to cover up the symptoms, and get sicker, or you can eliminate the antibiotics, clear out the Candida, and re-introduce the friendly micro-organisms back into the digestive tract. To do so is far more time consuming and complicated than popping some painkillers and anti-depressants.

People want a quick fix. The drug companies promise them one. They fall for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 03:58 PM

The "real scientists" are the ones who are willing to honestly test the claims of others, and to accept the results of others' honest tests. Period. Doesn't matter whether they come from the "conventional" or "alternative" world. It is the test, not the claim, nor the jargon that makes it science.

I'll even go this far - the distinction between conventional medicine and alternative medicine is phoney and misleading. There should be only one category - Medicine. If it works, it's not "alternative", it's medicine. If it has not been tested (double blind please), or has failed all tests so far (N.B. the important "so far"), it's not medicine.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 03:50 PM

Thank you, Little Hawk. The only real scientists among doctors today are the ones willing to risk all to test new therapies instead of parroting whatever line they were taught 25 years back, or whatever line of bull big pharma is selling. And when you're seriously ill, you need a scientist, not a parrot.

I do know of one MD who is doing experimental work with whole-body magnetics on a few serious medical problems, and they have had encouraging results. They do not know how it works, but the theory is that the forces, (if used on a large scale so that only one polarity is passing across the body in one area), seem to disrupt dysfunctional cells by realigning the tiny metal ions contained within the cells, and that with some conditions that disruption is very helpful.   It's a bit like electro-shock in theory. Shouldn't necessarily work, but is very helpful to some people.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 03:00 PM

Best look into why so many are suffering premature obesity and getting cancer, heart disease, and diabetes in the first place, and do something about that instead. But that could cause about 60,000 major food and drug industries to go bust if anything serious was done about it, couldn't it?

Hmmmmm...

Well, not to worry, most people are way too lazy and distracted to alter their accustomed modern consumer lifestyle anyway, so we'll just count on that, and keep right on with the emergency brigade (poison, cut, and burn) and rush in to the rescue AFTER they get sick and start dying. And we'll all be rich!


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Grab
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 01:45 PM

I stand corrected, Bobad - thanks for the info.

I realise I missed something. If a placebo works for you, then fine - you're free to try it. But a doctor can't give you a list of placebo treatments (or suspected-placebo treatments) and say "try any of these, they might work for you", because his job is to present you with treatments that *have* been proven to work, and to know which ones those are. Lest anyone forgets, "poison, cut and burn" is the reason most people survive cancer these days, when within most of our lifetimes it was a near-certain death sentence.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 12:51 PM

Interesting drift.

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 12:14 PM

Of course Barrett is interested in "discrediting". Science is all about "discrediting". If you make a claim, it has to stand up to all attempts to "discredit" it. Ideas that can be discredited fall away (e.g. leeching perhaps?), while those that can withstand testing live on (until they might later be discredited that is - because everything is always open to testing or it ain't science). It may seem mean-spirited, or exclusive, or elitist, or whatever - but it is the way science works. And science does work, or we would not be here having this discussion (in particular in this fashion!).


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 11:44 AM

"And we *still* don't know how aspirin works. "

      How aspirin works
      New understanding of old remedy may spell relief for regular users

      Although aspirin was introduced as a pain reliever nearly 100 years ago, how it actually works has remained a mystery until now.

      University researchers, led by Michael Garavito, Associate Professor in Biochemistry & Molecular Biology, have discovered the precise chemical mechanism of how aspirin stops pain and inflammation. The team's finding, reported in the journal Nature/Structural Biology, means that millions of arthritis sufferers and others who regularly take aspirin to reduce pain and inflammation may be able to look forward to improved drugs with fewer side effects.

      Aspirin and other non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), such as ibuprofen and indomethacin, work by inhibiting an enzyme that produces prostaglandins -- hormone-like messenger molecules that trigger processes in the body, including inflammation. The Chicago researchers have shown that aspirin splits into two parts and affixes one part to the enzyme, permanently altering its chemical structure and blocking the reaction that produces prostaglandins. Aspirin is the only NSAID known to work in this manner.

      The new finding follows a report last year by the same researchers in which they determined the molecular structure of the enzyme, prostaglandin H2 synthase, or PGHS. Using X-rays to probe the positions of atoms in tiny crystals of the enzyme, they showed that PGHS has a tunnel running into the middle of it. The raw material must pass through this tunnel to reach the core of the enzyme, where it will be converted into prostaglandin.

      The team reports that aspirin permanently attaches a portion of itself inside the tunnel, where it acts as a gate, blocking prostaglandin's precursor from reaching the "active site" of the enzyme. The researchers further showed that this gate can be in two positions, either fully or partially closed, and that the position of the gate may differ between two forms of the enzyme found in the body. Finding such differences between the two forms is the key to developing improved NSAIDs.

      Four years ago, several groups found that the body has two types of prostaglandin H2 synthase: an ever-ready PGHS-1, present in nearly all cells for basic housekeeping duties, and PGHS-2, made only as needed and just by those cells involved in inflammations and immune responses. Unfortunately for pain sufferers -- and especially for rheumatoid arthritis patients, who must take huge doses daily -- none of the current crop of 16 NSAIDs discriminates between the two enzyme forms. Before it can trickle into the bloodstream and alleviate inflammation by reining in PGHS-2, the drug passes through the stomach, where it knocks out PGHS-1, causing excess acid secretion and stomach upset or ulcers.

      "Just four years ago the consensus in the pharmaceutical community was you couldn't build a better aspirin," Garavito said. "But understanding the differences between the two forms of PGHS may allow us to do exactly that. We know that PGHS-2 is only partly blocked by aspirin, while PGHS-1 is completely knocked out. This paper shows why this might be so. The bottom line is that although the two forms of the enzyme seem very similar, their active sites are subtly different, and this could be a basis for rational drug design."

      Garavito and researchers Patrick Loll, Research Associate in Biochemistry & Molecular Biology, and Daniel Picot (now at the Institut de Biologie Physico-Chimique in Paris) grew crystals of PGHS-1 using a technique that took them six years to develop. They diffused into the growing crystals an analog of aspirin that contains a bromine atom to aid in the X-ray crystallography.

      PGHS-1 is tightly bound to an intracellular membrane. Such proteins are notoriously difficult to study because the detergents needed to separate the protein from the greasy membrane make crystallization difficult. The researchers use PGHS-1 isolated from sheep seminal vesicles. By slowly changing the composition of the solution and the surrounding vapor over a period of weeks, the researchers were able to grow brown, rod-shaped crystals almost one-sixteenth of an inch long for study.

      Drug developers are most interested in targeting PGHS-2, and Garavito's laboratory is trying to grow crystals of that form of the enzyme large enough to X-ray. But aspirin's beneficial effects in preventing vascular disease and heart attacks are thought to be a PGHS-1 phenomenon, and improved anti-platelet drugs may derive directly from the current study, which was funded by the National Institutes of Health.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/950817/aspirin.shtml


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Grab
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 08:49 AM

Amos, that's the point - the human body has amazing powers of self-recovery. That's why the placebo effect is so remarkable, and why there's a need to correct for it in the first place. And again, that's why M Ted's doctor was so right - if it works for you then keep doing it.

Sadly it wouldn't make money for the drugs companies if we found out how it worked, so there isn't the research into it that there really should be. There certainly is research going on, though.

LH, the doctor in your example only *claims* to cure AIDS. Anyone found the actual stats from his hospital?

As far as alternative treatments go, the key thing is finding which ones work and which don't, and for which diseases/symptoms they do/don't work. Acupuncture is a good recent example - it's fairly widely used now (at least in the UK), even though it's not understood yet. And we *still* don't know how aspirin works. But it hasn't stopped studies to find what they do/don't work for. No doctor will ever be thrown out by their professional association for using evidence-based medicine.

The problem is practitioners who *don't* use evidence-based medicine. (Homeopathy is the prime example here, since the overwhelming concensus of studies is that it has no effect beyond placebo.) If you prescribe a treatment that hasn't been shown to work, then you *should* be drummed out of your profession! Unless of course you've made it completely clear that you're doing research, and the patients are 100% in agreement with you using them as guinea pigs for this research - and even then you'll have ethical problems if the results of the treatment failing are near-certainty of death (cancer or AIDS, for instance).

As for "nobody got sick because they *lacked* drugs", that's pure bullshit. There's a reason everyone had huge families before modern medicine - having a family of 10 was the only way you could guarantee 2 of them surviving. Antibiotics and vaccines are the clearest possible counter-argument to your claim. Go talk to an African about river sickness, malaria, diptheria or TB, and see how well they're doing without them.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 05:56 PM

I live in the Seattle, Washington (USA) area. About a dozen years ago, several of us founded a business networking group. We had ten years of weekly meetings. It was an amazing learning time for all of us. During that period, we had about 400 different businesses come and go. Some applied for membership and were not accepted. Most were accepted and had varying degrees of success, depending on many factors.

Early on, we were approached by the Nikon company, based in Japan. Their products all involved magnetic therapy: pillows, shoe inserts, bracelets, sitting mats, etc. At that time, I was in charge of checking the references of new businesses that applied to join our group.

After a background check, we denied them membership, because of the marketing practises of the company. They threatned to sue us and I'm still laughing at them.

The most benificial use of magnents, excepting compasses, is in the dairy industry ... where they force cows to swallow magents to catch the occasional pieces of barbed wire they ingest.

... wanna' buy a bridge ... what color? CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 05:08 PM

Try this--    http://www.medicalconsumers.org/pages/FluVaccineisRarelyEffective.html


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 12:17 AM

Your link isn't working, M. Ted. I might mention that I never get flu shots, nor does anyone in my family.

We don't seem to get the flu either.

Odd, isn't it? ;-)

I might also mention that my mother's health was extremely good until the late 70's, when she got a number of innoculations for a trip to Pakistan. These were supposedly to protect her from all those nasty germs over there. She immediately got very sick from the innoculations (!), and her health remained unstable for about the next 20 years as a direct result of the innoculations, not as a result of any germs in Pakistan!

Odd, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 12:01 AM

TIA--Barrett isn't reputable--he's a foaming at the mouth anti-alternative medicine spin-doctor--his "quackwatch" is only concerned with discrediting that, and never, ever, explores issues like widely known fact that Flu Vaccine is Rarely Effective


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 11:58 PM

Exactly, TIA. We are headed for another planetary magnetic reversal, as has happened in the past numerous times.

What I am wondering is whether the decline in the magnetic field is having subtle effects on people's physical and pschological health. That may be so. It's an area worth looking into.

I read the report by the M.D. Yeah, okay. You will find if you investigate the alternative health field that there is no form of alternative therapy in existence that is not or has not been aggressively and continually attacked by the FTC, the FDA, and the AMA. In those attacks, they enlist the services of any well-paid doctor who is willing to debunk any treatment that does not utilize the use of pharmaceutical drugs, surgery, and radiation...the three sacred cows of the modern medical industry. ("poison, cut, and burn")

These are all invasive techniques (fire department to the rescue!), none of which seem to believe in the body's powerful ability to heal itself through nutrition, exercise, pure water, and a good state of mind, and they all contribute to a multi-billion or trillion dollar national medical industry that guards its own ass and wants no competition to be allowed to survive in its jurisdiction.

I have read books by M.D.'s who categorically oppose the general attitude of the AMA, the FDA, and the FTC in this regard. In so doing, they risk having their careers and reputations destroyed. They risk prosecution and imprisonment. They risk everything.

The conventional doctor who supports the standard line of the AMA, the FTC, and the FDA risks absolutely nothing, and he continues getting a fat paycheck while risking nothing. Can such men be found? In a heartbeat! Also, they may very well believe that they are doing the right thing, since they were educate to believe in the conventional medical system.

Ask me who I think has more credibility under such circumstances? The guy who's putting his career on the line with an unconventional viewpoint, that's who. I read a book by a medical doctor in California who found both the cause of Aids and the cure for it. He has a private clinic and has cured many people there, but he makes no official claim at that clinic to be able to cure anyone....he advertises it simply as a hospice to give comfort to the dying. The "dying" under his treatment surprisingly get better and walk out after a few weeks or months. If he claimed to be able to cure anyone, however, the AMA and the FDA would shut him down immediately.

Why? Because he threatens a multi-billion dollar Aids-generated industry that mostly sells drugs and researches new drugs. He does not use any drugs to cure or treat Aids. If they admit he's right, they can shut their whole industry down right now, and all lose their jobs. They are not going to do that!

If he quietly treats just a few people, doesn't officially claim a cure, and nobody much hears about it, then the national drug business for treating Aids can go on as usual, and they won't have to prosecute hin or kill him.

It's that simple.

Our conventional medicine of today is a great big giant corporate disgrace, based purely on making money. It's all about money and pushing drugs. No one ever got sick because they lacked drugs. Drugs aren't natural. They got sick because they were poisoned BY drugs and by many other modern toxins, and they were weakened by a very poor diet and a stressful and unnatural lifestyle. In a century from now our "modern medicine" of today will be seen the way we now see the "leeches" of oldtime medicine who put their unwashed hands into open wounds...only worse than that. Way worse. They did it out of ignorance. Our drug companies do it for money. Only for money. And they know exactly what they are doing. Their employess may not know. Your personal doctor probably doesn't know. But the people running the drug companies do know, and they don't give a damn.

You want to get sick? Take drugs. Legal drugs. Take lots of them. Take a legal drug for every little symptom you've got. Drink "diet" drinks. Eat "non-fat" processed snacks. Use artificial sweeteners. Take laxatives. Get your flu shots. Take antacids. Use anti-perspirants. Spray chemical stuff up your nose to prevent it from running when you have a cold. Take anti-depressants. Accept the notion that your own body is incapable of fighting "germs" and needs artificial chemical help at all times. Accept the notion that you are not responsible for your health, the drugstore is! I guarantee you will get sick all right, and you'll keep getting sicker too. That will be great for the people who are selling you the drugs, and that is all they care about.


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 11:11 PM

Full disclosure:

I know earth science just fine.
Don't know much about medical science.

But, this guy does...


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Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 11:01 PM

What do I make of it?

Easy - we are headed for another geomagnetic reversal. It has happened hundreds of times (as recorded in the sea floor). The field will decay to naught, and regenerate with a (possibly) new orientation, and Canada will no longer be "North" of the USA (at least according to compasses).

Effects on creatures? There is no correlation between the sea floor stripes and any discernible variations in the fossil record. However, there are clearly migratory creatures (including lobsters!) who employ the Earth's field for navigation, and will be be affected. And what will they do about it? Adapt no doubt.

BTW - just noticed that my attempt at inserting mathematical symbols in my previous post failed. Should say that an MRI magnet is upwards of 500,000 times stronger than the Earth's ambient field. Also 5,000 times stronger than the average fridge magnet at 100 Teslas. The strongest magentic therapy device I could find advertised was 300 Teslas.

The reason MRI magnets are so whopping strong is that the stuff that makes up humans has extremely low magnetic susceptibility. The creatures that use the Earth's field to navigate have actual magnetite crystals in 'em (in the shells of lobsters, in the brains of some birds, etc.) Unfortunately people (other than those who may have met with some violent mineralogic accident) dont have magnetite in 'em.


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