BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:54 PM

The Earth's magnetic field! I'd forgotten about that! I'll betcha that's what's caused the problems with my computer recently!

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:48 PM

Yes, without it we would all fly off into space... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:36 PM

"Is it a possibility?"

Anything's a possibility - consider the healing powers of gravity.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:59 PM

Yes, TIA, but what do you make of the fact that the DC magnetic field that comes from the Earth has been declining steadily for hundreds of years, and is now only about 20% as strong as it used to be? Would that decline in the Earth's magnetic field have an effect on living things? Could it? Is it a possibility?

If so, what would one do about it?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:55 PM

"a lot of the effects of conventional medicinces and therapies is related to the placebo effect--"

That may be because a lot of the conditions which respond to placebos are psychosomatic in origin.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:51 PM

Don't waste your money on the braceletes, etc. Your entire body is subjected to a magnetic field of 54,000 to 58,000 nanoTeslas (depending on your latitude and longitude) every moment of your life. MRI machines do, in fact, use DC magnetic fields that are upwards of five times this intensity, but they are for imaging and NOT for treatment of anything. Some AC fields might be helpful, but others (e.g. in the microwave or gamma wavebands) are absolutely deadly. In any case, the bracelets, etc. generate only DC, and you are already getting that treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:19 PM

At the risk of bring the discussion back to topic, I will mention that there is a thought going around that a lot of the effects of conventional medicinces and therapies is related to the placebo effect--

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:58 PM

Yeah, yeah.... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:43 PM

"gave myself a bad case of whiplash........."
LOL

"My mom??? She's getting a little old for that"
That's just what she tells YOU...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:39 PM

Thanks, BPL. I don't think I've ever sat through a Bob Hope film. Matter of fact, I know I haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:37 PM

My mom??? She's getting a little old for that, Clinton. LOL!

My God, what a place this is.....

Spaw, I think you should check out the health food stores in your area. My understanding is that you can get expandable magnetic bracelets and necklaces that will fit ANY size of dick, neck, or whatever. Even yours.

Also, go to a doctor, man, and ask him to teach you about basic anatomy. It's not too late to find out where your dick really is, and I think you're just a little confused.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:36 PM

No Clinton, I am not confused at all. I haven't confused my neck with my dick since that time I decided to jack-off and gave myself a bad case of whiplash.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:33 PM

LH - that was a scene from Buttons an' Bows starring Bob Hope. ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:30 PM

Yer mom says I'm WAY hotter than you

And better in bed too...

:-P
Heh

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:28 PM

Rapaire... LOL! You're not serious, are you? Geez, he would have to be wearing some pretty heavy duty magnetic stuff to do that.

Yes, scepticism does affect test results. It worsens them. For example, I've heard about more than one study in ESP (guessing a hidden card type) where the following results were obtained...

Those who believed in it were fairly good at it, scoring higher than average results, indicating ESP ability.

Those who were neutral about it scored average to better than average, also indicating some ESP ability.

Those who categorically did NOT believe in ESP scored considerably lower than average results. In other words, they more often guessed 'wrong' than they should have...according to their theory that ESP does not exist. They evidently WERE using ESP, totally unconsciously, to prove to their own satisfaction that ESP does not exist!

Amusing. People are capable of more than they are prepared to admit to.

Clinton, I recommend that you try that thing with the bullfrog. It probably won't do anything for your cold, but it'll at least make you look more attractive. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:25 PM

Yer confusing yer dick with yer neck again....

Sure, so does everybody else, but....

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:22 PM

Hawk, I DID try one of those copper bracelets on my dick but even the extra-large size cut off the circulation.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 03:07 PM

There is a diference between magnetic fields produced by magnets and by electromagnetic devices. Basicaly the field from a magnet is static (to the magnet) and the electromagnetic device occilates. This has a dramatic effect on certain materials, and is also dependent on frequency.
If all those who think magnetic fields can have no effect on the Human Body would step foreward and place there heads into a microwave (safetys removed) whilst I switch on.......... what .... no voulenteers?


CLogger:

A couple of minor impediments here.

1. Ferromagnetic dipoles, as you say, are relatively static in their field alignment. But so are electromagnets created by a coil with DC going through it. The oscillation you speak of is an AC phenomenon.

2. Microwaves do not use magnetic fields to affect their targets. They emit very high frequency radio waves, with a wavelength in the range of 0.001-0.3m. While these are part of the general electro-magnetic spectrum, they use a magnet only to spin the electrons and generate the radio-waves; the magnetism does not impact the target dish, it just helps excite the microwave energy.

In a magnetron, emitted electrons interact with an electric field and a strong magnetic field to generate microwave energy. The direction of the electric field that accelerates the electron beam is perpendicular to the axis of the magnetic field.

At least, that's how I understand the damn thing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:47 PM

I knew a guy who wore magnetics all the time. Said it cured everything that was wrong with him and prevented everything else. It did not, however, cure clumsiness and one day he fell against a rack of computer servers and erased all the hard drives, then riccocheted into the racks holding the backup tapes and erased those. He was terminated on the spot by an irate Computer Services Supervisor, who used a .38 special.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:38 PM

"skeptics by their very nature transmit an anti-aura"

What a load of bullsquirt!

Almost as big a load as Magnetic Therapy.....

What's next? Pyramid Power? The Tarot?   Wearing a bullfrog around your neck to 'cure' a cold??

Pack up your ogga-booga and take it back to the 13th Century where it belongs o.k....

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:34 PM

Bill D, Clinton, artbrooks and other poindexters: Of course these things don't work for you. You are skeptics and skeptics by their very nature transmit an anti-aura that impedes both quasi-electro and quantum magnetic devices. It's the same homocentric energy blocker that rechannels the chakra in what Deepak Chapra calls 'intrinsic obscuring.' Experience is the only true knowledge; Why not allow those who would benefit from alternative medicine to do so?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 01:36 PM

Next, Spaw, you should try wearing that copper bracelet on your dick and see if it shows any improvement there....

The reason placebos work is because human thought and belief in itself can be a tremendously powerful healing agent to an ailing body.

As Jesus said, "Ye are all gods and sons of the most high. All the things I have done, you can do these and greater."

People are the prisoners of their own basic limiting beliefs about themselves and about life. This is universally true.

A human being is an electromagnetic system, with those electromagnetic energies pulsing out constantly from the brain through the nervous system and the endocrine glands, and regulating the functioning of the various body systems. That's why depression, for example, is injurious to your physical health. It interferes with the healthy communication of the nervous system to the body. It suppresses or misdirects the electromagnetic communications in the nervous system.

Why should a magnetic flux field (either steady or alternating) not have some effect on either assisting or perhaps interfering with the functioning of an electromagnetic nervous system in your body?

The planet Earth is itself a generator of a huge magnetic field, with a north polarity in the northern hemisphere, and a south polarity in the southern hemisphere. That field is passing through your body every moment of your life. Might it not have some effect on your well-being to increase or decrease that field, which is a condition your biological organism has been attuned to since birth?

There are a great many scientific verifications now of an interesting fact: the magnetic field of our planet has decreased substantially in the past few thousand years, from a former level of 2.5 gauss to a level of .5 gauss. That's a reduction of 80% in a relatively short biological period of time!

Scientists do not know why the magnetic field of the planet has decreased so dramatically, but they do know it has.

There is a possibility that the reduced magnetic field of the planet in recent times has added to various stresses upon lifeforms which for lengthy millenia were accustomed to being immersed in a much stronger magnetic field, and that may be why magnetic therapy, if done properly, can be useful in stimulating a biological system to repair itself.

I'm not saying I know that is so. I'm saying it might be so, and the sceptic who has probably never given the matter a moment's serious thought, truth be told, but is merely reacting out of his own arrogant chauvinism in most cases, has no more reason to say he KNOWS it isn't so than I would have to say I KNOW it IS so. It MAY be so. It's a possibility. Possibilities deserve to be investigated.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:45 PM

There is a diference between magnetic fields produced by magnets and by electromagnetic devices. Basicaly the field from a magnet is static (to the magnet) and the electromagnetic device occilates. This has a dramatic effect on certain materials, and is also dependent on frequency.
If all those who think magnetic fields can have no effect on the Human Body would step foreward and place there heads into a microwave (safetys removed) whilst I switch on.......... what .... no voulenteers?
Obviously, microwaves are tuned to resonate with the water molecule produceing heat! Other devices MAY have other effects.
Until recently Wesern Medical Science denied that accupuncture works, dispite proveable evidence to the contery. Could the same not be true of magnetic therapy?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:31 PM

I was a therapeutic hypnotist for 12 years and saw some amazing "placebo" effects.

Amos how did you come to the correct conclusion in so little time?

Jeez, I could have saved 12 years ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:27 PM

I don't understand the attitude sometimes encountered in duiscussions like this one which says in effect, "oh, you weren't REALLY cured -- that was placebo effect."

I would suggest that if modifying a mental action by suggestion or belief brings about healing, you are looking at a far more powerful therapeutic approach, not one that should be invalidated; namely, a therapeutic approach that costs nearly zero to apply and is self-localizing in its effects. I have no idea exactly how much money pharmaceutical companies spend to make the chemicals they want to apply in the body get to the correct sites, and not effect the wrong ones, but I expect it is a major technical factor in the design of tablets and pharmaceutical compounds. USing the placebo effect would be like getting the remedy for the price of the label alone! How d'ye like them apples?

But of course, minds vary wildly and cases respond with different levels of confidence and result to suggestions. This area is a profound study, IMO, examining the nature of postulated realities (even when stimulated by authoritarian permission) on structural and organic physical objects. Sure it is unsettling if you believe in the all-mechnaism model of thought, but, well, tough.

If it works at all, you have what might be called a "white crow" phenomenon -- absolute rebuttal to the statement "all crows are black". This implies that an all-mechanism paradigm of human existence, encountering a definite but non-aligned (to the model) phenomenon, must be re-examined and its flawed assumptions identified.

A

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:18 PM

LAOL

laughing almost out loud

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:18 PM

Donuel, magnetic therapies are also being experimentally used in depression - TMS - transcranial magnetic stimulation. However those sorts of strong electromagnetic therapies are a world away from the use of magnetic bracelets etc.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:17 PM

I don't know about the magnets, but I do know that those copper bracelets work! I know the thing must have worked 'cause it turned my wrist green.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 12:03 PM

Other than the MRI, and new magnetic tensor scanning devices used for diagnosis and surigcal guides, the only magnetic therapeutic application that I know of is the use of certain magnetic frequencies that aid in the healing of bone breaks by speeding healing up to 50%.
It is especially valuable for the elderly with broken hips.

As for the back braces with magnets, they won't cause harm and cost about the same as supports without magnets so I say go ahead.



As for clintonH's fount of knowledge...
the only scams would be miracle claims for disease and joint pain relief.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 11:03 AM

On Dr. Ben Goldacre's site there's a very good article explaining how the decline of the old fashioned paternalistic, authoritarian medicine has created a need for therapists who talk in a comforting but authoritative way... witchdoctoring in other words. The problem with mainstream medicine is that the doctors are too honest and won't lie to you about the effects!

When I was a kid, all drugs were marked "THE TABLETS" or "THE MIXTURE", and our kindly old Scottish family doctor was highly offended if anyone presumed to ask what they contained.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:54 AM

Have you tried Melatonin {sp?} for the insomnia ?

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Grab
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:29 AM

Try using a non-magnetic bracelet as well, and see if it makes a difference. In fact, if you want to do it properly then paint both of them the same colour and get someone to give you one of them at random. Otherwise you're likely to be hitting placebo effects.

Placebo effects aren't a *bad* thing - as M Ted's doctor was smart enough to realise - but just bcos someone gets relief from their symptoms by praying to Zeus every hour, it doesn't mean you will.

Bonecruncher, as far as quoting MRI scans goes, we're talking major differences here. It's like saying that because a blowtorch will light a piece of wood on fire, you must also be able to light a piece of wood by huffing on it.

And not that I'm any kind of expert, but I was surprised to hear on the radio recently that animals are *more* susceptable to placebo effect than humans. Partly it's animals trusting that humans will look after them, and partly it's observational bias on the part of the humans doing the looking-after.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: JennyO
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 10:22 AM

I had a broken ankle in '99 and there was a lot of tissue damage which resulted in it swelling up every day for the first few months. After not much improvement after 3 months, my naturopath suggested a magnetic pillow, which was actually a slim pillow with magnets between the layers, which you insert into your normal pillowcase next to your normal pillow.

I always sleep with a pillow between my knees and ankles anyway, as it seems to help prevent occasional back problems, so I had my ankle next to the magnetic pillow all night. I also took as many opportunities during the day to sit with it wrapped around my ankle (I had already been spending as much time as possible with my feet up). Within two days I started to notice a dramatic improvement, with much less swelling from then on. A couple of weeks later it was pretty much back to normal.

When I broke my wrist in early 2002, and it was taking a long time to heal, I got the pillow out again and rested my arm on it at night in bed. Apart from it feeling instantly more comfortable, the healing rate started to pick up, and I got more movement back in my fingers. It had been a very bad break, and the doctor was amazed at how much movement and flexibility I got back. It's as good as new now.

Of course I can't give figures or measurements or proof, but the results seemed obvious enough to me that I believe it works, and if I had a similar problem again, I would use it again and expect to see good results again.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 06:34 AM

if you had a really strong magnet - you could undo people's zips without them noticing.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 05:47 AM

http://www.jfponline.com/Pages.asp?AddFav=1&UID=60&AID=1090

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/329/7480/1450

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/extract/332/7532/4

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/329/7480/0-b

These are just a few articles I have found by googling the topic and using pubmed. Unfortunately a lot of the BMJ stuff is fairly recent, so you have to be a subscriber to get the full text. But a useful thing is the rapid response letters to the articles in which academics discuss the quality (or lack thereof) of the research done.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: MBSLynne
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 02:41 AM

My Mother and I both suffwe from arthritic-type pain in the fleshy area at the side of our hand/base of our thumbs. We both find that when it flares up, if we wear a magnetic bracelet for a couple of days it goes away.

BTW, just because science hasn't yet found an explanation for something (and there are a lot of things they haven't) doesn't make it paranormal.

Yes they work some of the time, and not on everyone, but then, so do a lot of accepted western medicines.

Just because YOU don't understand it, doesn't make it crap

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 01:31 AM

A doctor that I used to use did a lot of work with magnets, including using them for diagnostics-- I do not and did not understand exactly what the procedure was, but he was able to get get information that was verified using other, independent procedures. It has been ten or more years since, and, surprisingly(given that it seemed to work), I've never heard about it.

Another doctor that I had, who was much more mainstream(in fact, he was one of those doctors that always are on lists in magazines) told me that if it works, and doesn't do any harm, you should keep doing it--He told me that a there are a lot of therapies don't work for everyone, or even for most of the people that try them, but can be very effective for a few people--and If it works for 99 others, but not for you, it doesn't work--

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,rt89
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 10:17 PM

Okay, good. We have a couple more real posts on the subject. Thank you for your input, Bonecruncher & Kaleea.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:44 PM

Ha ha good joke about Voltaire, Bonecruncher.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Kaleea
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:38 PM

I tried the magnet thing for my wrists (carpal tunnel of both), my neck & low back, knees & ankles-arthritis, nerve damage & other injuries from auto accident. I got plenty o' nuthin' from them thar magnets. zero. zip. nada. no relief of any of the pain.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:21 PM

Hello GUEST rt89
I am an Osteopath and have a number of patients who use magnetic bracelets etc. to improve their symptoms. In most cases they have felt a tangible improvement.
There have been a number of cases where magnetic collars have been fitted to animals and in most cases there was a marked improvement. With my own dog improvement came within two hours. If his colar was removed he deteriorated over several hours, improving again when the collar was replaced. Work on animals removes the placebo effect.

We may not know how it works but mainstream medecine uses magnets in MRI scans. Magnets obviously have some sort of effect on a body which is, in effect, a huge battery.
Unfortunately science still does not know all the answers as to how the human body works. Only recently it has been found that herbal remedies, in some cases, work better than manufactured drugs as the plant contains substances other than the main ingredient which acts in sybiosis to facilitate healing.

Remember that studies of any medicine can only be carried out with the knowledge and tools that we have today. Dow we always have the right tools?
Men once played with Whimshurst machines and Leyden jars to make sparks fly as an after-dinner entertainment. It was only whrn a guy called Votaire built a meter to measure electricity that society realised what it could do for them.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:20 PM

"The question is, how do you go about measuring something like this? "

Aye that's the rub isn't it ? That's the problem with evaluating the efficacy of therapies. Anecdotal claims are not reliable because for everyone who claims benefit we never hear about how many received no benefit at all.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,rt89
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:40 PM

Yes. The question is, how do you go about measuring something like this? As I say, the bracelet does appear to be helping with the wrist...but my condition was not so dramatic as to make it totally clear one way or another. Anyway, we shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:26 PM

Why don't you try it out yourself then and report back here, I would be interested to see if there is any MEASURABLE improvement in the condition for which you intend to use it.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,rt89
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:19 PM

Wesley, I would like to sleep better at night. I have a fair bit of insomnia from time to time. I also have some tendency toward carpal tunnel or tendonitis symptoms in the wrists at times, from computer work. I have tried using a magnetic bracelet for a few days for the wrist, and it does appear to be helping.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,rt89
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:15 PM

Artbrooks, I wish to hear not from the converted paranormal choir nor the professional sceptic debunking choir. Neither of those. They both have an axe to grind, and a familiar position to defend.

I wish to hear from ordinary people who have tried magnetic therapy themselves and can tell me if it helped them or not. Period. Perhaps there are no such people on this forum, but that hardly seems likely.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 08:07 PM

Just curious. What are you hoping to cure, relieve,put into remission... whatever

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:59 PM

Well, let's just say it works some of the time; if anyone comes up with a poll, I'd be interested in seeing it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: GUEST,rt89
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:52 PM

There are plenty of theories about how and why it works, but I certainly do not intend to type them all out here in a fruitless attempt to persuade know-it-alls who already know all about things they're never personally experienced. Naw.   

Anyway, thanks for the anecdote, Amos. It seems that quite a few pro golfers and professional sports people are using these magnetic wristbands, knee braces, and other such devices to eliminate pain and assist them in their sport.

The important thing is, does it work? In many cases it seems to. I am hoping, however, to get feedback from people with genuine direct, personal EXPERIENCE...not empty opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: info on magnetic therapy devices?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:45 PM

Well, GUEST,rt89 perhaps you need to ask your question at a website for practitioners and believers in the paranormal. I directed you to the results of a scientific study done by people that I personally know and respect, and one of the three researchers involved told me that he was very surprised to find that the study showed no measurable effects.