Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?

Subject: Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?
From:
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 06:05 PM

I am researching folk-tune variants in American Shape-note tunebooks.

Does anyone hear Carrickfergus in the below tune? It is noted in 1850's.

PARTING FRIENDS (the author says he learned the air from his mother)

http://www.pilgrimproduction.org/sacredharp/rockymt1996/music/29.mp3

or this one It is noted in 1844.

FULFILLMENT

http://www.pilgrimproduction.org/sacredharp/maquoketa/music/21.mp3

I also have one more from 1805.

Since these dates are early for America, could the shape-note version be related to an older Gaelic original rather than the modern version of the tune.

I would love your thoughts and feedback on the possible relationship of these tunes.

All the Best,

Tom Malone
Boston University
www.SingIngalls.org
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 04:34 AM

Hi, Tom - I turned your URLs into clickable links, but couldn't get them to work this evening. I think maybe pilgrimproductions.org is down.

Parting Friends (click) is in the Southern Harmony hymnal - I don't hear Carrickfergus there.

I didn't find a MIDI for "Fulfillment."

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:19 AM

"Carrickfergus" is a variant of "Waly, Waly" which was first recorded from southern Scotland around 1700 - nothing suggests it's Gaelic. "Waly Waly" has made its way into British hymnbooks but only in the 20th century as far as I know.

I have a hard time identifying any tune in those MP3s, they sound worse than 78s. I might do better with a score - the melody is in the tenor line?

Subject: RE: Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:39 AM

No Carrickfergus that I know. When I'd decided that the first one wasn't Vogon, it sounded rather Bulgarian.

The second one sounded much like the Watersons on "sound, sound".

Subject: RE: Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 08:22 AM

Jack

The relationship of Carrickfegus/Do bhí bean uasal to Waly,Waly was thrashed out in this thread .

Regards

Subject: RE: Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 09:38 AM

The first one sounded more like "I am a Poor Wayfaring Stranger" to me, but I can see how IAAPWS "could" sound a little like Carrickfergus but no more so than many songs and tunes have relationships.

Subject: RE: Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 06:45 PM

Both are in The Sacred Harp (1991 Revision):

102 Fulfillment ("See how the Scriptures are fulfilling")

267 Parting Friends ("Farewell, my friends, I'm bound for Canaan")

Subject: RE: Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:24 PM

Both are suitably stirring, though the mp3s are of horribly low quality. Neither has the slightest resemblance to Carrickfergus that I can hear. On the whole, shape-note tunes (when not new compositions made in America) seem to derive from English and Anglo-Scottish sources, rather than Irish or Scottish Gaelic.

See the late Bruce Olson's comments of the history of the Carrickfergus melody (Martin has already dealt with the question of the text) in earlier threads here, and in his website, which is archived at

http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/Olson/

and

http://www.mudcat.org/olson/viewpage.cfm

Subject: RE: Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 11:24 PM

Sounds more like the wicked witch's soldiers in Wizard of Oz.

Subject: RE: Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?
From:
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 04:53 PM

Thanks for your perspectives of the tune resemblance, or lack thereof.

Sorry for the low-fi sound samples, I guess I've sung Sacred Harp too long, they sound fine to me! And yes, the melody is in the tenor line so it's kind of hard to tease out amongst all of the parallel 5ths and 8ves.

I guess I could re-phrase my question:

What other related traditional British-Isles tunes are structured on a 9.8.9.8. metric scheme?

Too ask the same question another way:

What other traditional tunes would have a similar enough rhythm, pulse, and number of syllables to each line that the words to C'fergus (Gaelic or English) could be sung to it?

For instance, a tune sung for Barbara Allen could also serve for Gypsy Davy because they have a 8.7.8.7. kind of structure to each stanza.

So is there a larger family of tunes with a 9.8.9.8 structure of which C'fergus is one?

The resemblance of the tunes I posted to Wayfaring Stranger has been noted by others, and that tune also has 9.8.9.8 for a metric scheme. See what I'm looking for here? An earlier model for both...

One could even try singing the words of C'fergus to the tune of Wayfaring Stranger and get the feeling of what I'm after!

Again I appreciate your thoughts and expertise.

All the best,

Tom Malone

Subject: RE: Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 11:46 AM

Tom, this probably retreads old ground for you, but my obsolete United Church of Canada hymnal points to 2 old 9898 tunes attributed to Louis Bourgeois in the mid 16th century Genevan Psalter, Rendez A Dieu & Les Commandemens, the first of which is said to be "arranged as in The English Hymnal".

Subject: RE: Shape-note tune and Carrickfergus?
From: Snuffy
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 01:25 PM

Songs of Praise lists the following as 9.8.9.8.
ESSEX
WEISSE (Gottlob,es geht nun mehr zum Ende)
JOLDWYNDS
LES COMMANDEMENS DE DIEU
PIMLICO ROAD (irreg.)

and the following as 9.8.9.8.D
HENHAM
RENDEZ À DIEU
CRUGYBAR

And if you added a couple of syllables to each line you could use LONDONDERRY 11.10.11.10.D (a.k.a. Danny Boy) :-)