Posting your own songs-copyright proof?

Subject: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: muppitz
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 01:52 PM

Just a small thought.

I posted a snippet of some lyrics from one of my own songs in a previous thread and someone commented that they had heard someone else do it, I forget the exact comment but it just put a thought in my head.
If someone WERE to 'steal' another person's song and credit it as their own, would a posting to Mudcat be adequate proof of the true author as there is a date on the thread?
I'm not asking for reasons of personal defence but I know of the 'poor man's copyright' wherein you mail a copy of your song to yourself using recorded delivery and keep the envelope sealed, I'm just interested to know if it came to it whether or not this would be viable proof of ownership.

muppitz x

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 03:01 PM

muppitz

There are lots of different interpretation, depending on who you are, who your backers are, and where you are.

In the US, the copyright does nothing to protect the "creator" or author of something. It protects the copy (it's a copyright) and while there's a "tradition" that some property right adheres to a creator/author, a copyright theoretically doesn't exist until there's a "publication." Mailing your creation to yourself would likely have little standing in any legal defense of your ownership of the song, except perhaps as "peripheral evidence" in court arguments by your very high priced lawyer.

A posting at mudcat might hold up as being a "publication" subject to copyright protection, but only if you specifically declare that it is you property, which is usually done by including the © symbol and the name of the person claiming rights in every appearance of a given work you've created.

There are many nuances, so quite likely others will have more to offer.

John

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 03:09 PM

Why take the chance.   Its easy to fill out the form and send in your $30 along with a CDR or cassette with all your songs on it. Compilation applications are extremely inexpensive and give you the security you are looking for. The internet makes it quite simple. Heck, even I can do it.

Mike

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Feb 06 - 03:11 PM

I was told by a rep from SOCAN (Canadian version of ASCAP) that the "mailing a song to yourself" trick wouldn't hold up in court. The only reliable method of copyright protection is to go to a music publishing company.

I had thought SOCAN did that for you, but I was corrected; they only deal with collecting royalties and paying them to the artist.

By the way, unless you're a widely played big name artist, don't count on making any serious dough from royalties. But if you're lucky enough to get on a film or TV show soundtrack, then you get paid by the second for how long your music is played in the movie/show. Every time it's shown.

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: Suffet
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 08:58 AM

Greetings:

According to my attorney who has lots of experience is this field, John is only partly correct. In the USA, and maybe elsewhere, you can register the copyright for an unpublished work of performing art. In most cases, the author of the work is deemed the copyright owner, and it is he or she who should register the claim with the US Copyright Office using Form PA.

One exception would be a work created "for hire," meaning that someone else paid you to create it. In that instance the person who hired you owns the copyright, and he or she needs to register the claim.

The US Copyright office does not issue copyrights; it registers claims. Unless you can produce credible evidence to the contrary -- and that's where your letter to yourself may come in handy -- courts usually recognize the earliest copyright claim as valid.

Another important point to consider is this. Even if you can later demonstrate that you are the legitimate copyright owner of a song, no one has to pay you even one cent in licensing fees until your copyright claim has been registered.

So take Alaska Mike's advice and pay the $30. You can, as he says, register an entire collection of songs at one time for one fee. Your give your collection a name of its own under "Title of This Work" on Form PA , such The Music of Muppitz. Where the form says "Previous or Alternative Titles," you list the names of all the individual songs. If there is not enough space, you must use a continuation sheet, Form __/CON.

Best of luck.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: sinpelo
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 10:36 AM

In the UK (I don't know where you're from), a work is copyright as soon as it's created. There is no need to register. In the event of a dispute, the earliest evidence of its creation may be acceptable in the absence of any other form of evidence (A hard copy with the date on is NOT evidence of the date of creation). Posting on a forum will provide evidence that it was published on that date (posting on the Internet counts as 'publishing'.... ie; making available to the public). Anyone claiming the work to be their own would have to provide evidence that it was published under their name at an earlier date.

This won't, of course, prevent anyone from singing your songs and, although you would technically be entitled to performing rights, it can be difficult to enforce. Recording your work or publishing in any format without your consent is infringement and the recordings/publications stand as evidence. If someone just sings your songs at folk clubs, I'd be inclined to regard it as a compliment and don't worry about it.

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: Suffet
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 11:28 AM

Greetings:

What Sinpelo says about the UK is somewhat true about the USA as well. Unless it is a work "for hire," the person who creates a work is deemed the copyright owner as soon as the work is created.

However, and this is what my attorney told me, if a dispute ever arose, the earliest copyright registration would be accepted as valid on its face. If you were not the person who registered the copyright claim first, the burden would be yours to provide credible evidence that you were the rightful copyright owner. That could be a long, difficult, and costly process, and you still might not prevail. It's easier and cheaper to pay the $30 up front.

He also advised me that until the copyright claim is registered with the US Copyright Office, no one is under any obligation to pay for mechanical rights. (Mechanical rights are the rights to make sound recordings such as CDs and tapes.) The rationale is: how would anyone know you are the copyright owner unless that information is available to the public?

By the way, in the USA if a musical work is published, the copyright owner must, upon request, issue a license for mechanical rights. This is called a compulsory license, and currently the person receiving the license must pay the statutory fee of 9.1 cents per distributed copy for works of 5 minutes or less, which includes most folk type songs. There is no requirement to issue a compulsory license for an unpublished work.

I have been on both ends of this. I once had to issue a compulsory license for a song I had published by posting on the rec.muisc.folk Internet newsgroup. At the time the statutory fee was 7.55 cents, so I received $75.50 for 1,000 CDs. Then last year, when I produced my CD Now the Wheel Has Turned, I obtained compulsory licenses for the three cover songs I recorded. By that time the fee had risen 8.5 cents, so I paid $42.50 each for licenses for 500 CDs. Actually, I paid $52.50 per license, since I bought them on-line through the Harry Fox Agency which tacks on a $10 handling fee per license.

The statutory fee became 9.1 cents on January 1, 2006.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: open mike
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 11:39 AM

on the other hand, if you post a song here
it is more likely that others will sing or
play it...

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: NH Dave
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 11:43 AM

In the US anything you write is automatically copyright, but for protection, you need to register the copyright. The "for hire" exception is just a bit more trickythan has been posted so far.

As I understand the law, if you are working for a person or corporation, everything you create while working for them, even if the something you create isn't done directly for them, belongs to them, and may even do if they can show that something you wrote grew from or branched from something you did while working for them.

Not fair? Well that may well be true, but life frequently gets that way,and we just have to learn to live with it.

Dave

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 11:51 AM

In Canada as in the UK copyright is from British common law. Copyright belongs to the authour from the time of creation of the work. What you need to be able to do is prove that you created something before someone else can claim to have done so. If a letter to yourself containg a copy of the work is postal dated but remains sealed it can be taken to a court official such as a justice of the peace or a judge. He will open the letter to confirm the contents and you will take an oath that it is your creation. The burden of proof would then be on the other party to prove that they possessed the work at an earlier date.
Publishing a work certainly dates it but is not a requirement for copyright. BE VERY CAREFUL OF PUBLISHERS FINE PRINT! Many of these bastards steal copyright!

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 01:11 PM

Point of interest - You DONT need to be a 'Big Name' to earn money from royalties . Barbara Berry is doing quite nicely for her setting of the poem 'I wandered By a Brookside' - especially as Eva Cassidy recorded it ! Just get a 'Big Name' to sing one of your songs on a CD .

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 04:23 PM

Suffet -

That you can register a copyright without separately publishing your work is correct; but in the "nuance" area that I mentioned, the registration itself is considered a suitable "publication." This isn't something worth more than about "half a quibble."

A similar principle applies with patents. Having an idea first is of little value. The patent goes to the first person "showing due diligence in reducing the idea to practice." The patent application and disclosure usually is accepted as evidence of an intent to "reduce to practice," and hence you don't actually have to build something for it to be patented. Especially if you don't intend to build it immediately (often because it won't actually work, in practice), you probably will want to patent it.

NH Dave -

if you are working for a person or corporation, everything you create while working for them, even if the something you create isn't done directly for them, belongs to them

This is not a statutory requirement. It depends on the contract you sign at the time of employment. Many companies demand that you sign such an agreement as a condition of employment, and such contracts have been found to be "legal" in most jurisdictions; however at least three states in the US do have statutes prohibiting this kind of contract.

Even without a contract, usually anything you do as an employee as part of your job, or using the employer's resources in any way, including in most cases incorporating special knowledge gained specifically from your employment, generally "belongs," in full or in some part, to the employer.

In those few states where the "inclusive" contract form is prohibited, if you can clearly show that your invention was created entirely independent of your employment, the employer cannot claim any part of it. A common "out" is for the employer to offer to "assist you" in obtaining your patent or copyright, which of course does give the employer an ownership interest. "Assistance," especially from someone with money, is seldom completely benign.

John

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: Suffet
Date: 26 Feb 06 - 09:17 PM

Greetings again:

Yes, John is correct that registering the copyright for an unpublished work serves the same purpose as actual publication for establishing the date of copyright ownership. It is, however, not the same as publication for the purpose of obtaining a compulsory mechanical license for making recordings. The copyright owner must issue a compulsory license only for a published work. He or she is under no obligation to issue a compulsory license for an unpublished work.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 02:22 AM

Suffet -

Very nicely, and concisely, stated.

John

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 03:39 AM

Sinpelo is largely right. However, the posting (as Americans would say, "mailing") trick, or the posting of a work on a forum is only proof of the existence of the work at that date, not of authorship.

The rule in the US about the effect of registration used to be, when I last looked it up seriously (about 1985) that registration of the work was prima facie evidence for a year and after a year conclusive evidence in the absence of proof of fraud on the copyright office.

Subject: RE: Posting your own songs-copyright proof?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Feb 06 - 04:48 AM

"on the other hand, if you post a song here
it is more likely that others will sing or
play it..."- open mike.

I've never seen any evidence that anyone reads anything that anyone else has posted on Mudcat or anywhere else on the internet...