Songwriting

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 11:55 AM

how about Busta Rhymes?

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Windsinger
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:33 PM

(Refresh.)

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Bert
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:40 PM

When stuck for a rhyme I often change the structure of the line so that the rhyme falls on a different word. Or expressed differently you don't HAVE to rhyme on a key word.

Also I create an imaginary picture of the verse in my mind and add props to the picture then you can rhyme with one of the props.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 05:58 PM

About the block thing, think yin/yang. When you can't get over a 'block' by hitting it head on, try another angle. Sneak around the sides or surprise it from behind.

I've tried to write about a certain subject and got no-where. It's because if the song needed to be writen, it would sort of start itself going. The 'why' comes before the 'what'. Why do you want to write the song? What is it about the subject that inspires you.

As for tunes, I've actually found I'm better on melody instruments. I hear the chords/harmonies in my head anyway. I know just enough guitar for it to limit me. Fiddle is OK, but I have to set it down to write or type the notes. I bought a cheapie keyboard, and the melodies come easier on that. The best tunes (sans words) I've written have been done solely on computer, with me thinking, "What happens if I stick a quarter note here?" With both the keyboard and the computer, I feel more free to experiment, but I don't know why.

What's hardest for me is that, although I can write words, and I can write tunes, it's a real bugger for me to write tunes to words or words to tunes!

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 08:55 PM

It's been a while since I visited this thread... thanks for the generous comments, alanabit. This is what I wrote in the Kitchen Table thread (why not stop by for a visit?)

"I don't write songs. I tame them. They are like shy, timid wild creatures. If I approach them too aggressively, they run for cover. I need to coax them out, encouraging them and if they draw back, let them. They will come to me in their own time.

It's why I could never do a songwriter's workshop where I give people advice on "how" to write a song. Other than maybe "Don't make any quick moves or it will run and hide. " :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 12:50 AM

I'm with Jerry 100% on that one.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: GUEST,Sandy Andina
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 02:56 AM

>>A guitar-buddy of mine in WV recommended just tooling around with preexisting songs that you like -- rearranging them, inverting the chords or the melody, changing the time signature. <<

Busted! "Ink and Pen" started out as the tune to the Beatles' "A Day in the Life," to which I originally put "I bought a pen today, oh, boy." Morphed into "I brought a brand-new pen today;" then I changed the melody and then the structure of the following lines so that the underpinnings were completely gone. Sort of like making papier-mache over a balloon and then popping the balloon once everything has dried and set. (Or inking and painting over a pencil sketch and erasing the pencil lines, or knocking down the scaffolding from a finished building).

Songs usually come to me via one phrase whose vowels and rhythm practically dictate the melody. Then comes the rest of the chorus, whose melody is usually fully formed before I even pick up a guitar. Lately, though, I have begun to visualize the chords even as I form the melody. Most of the time, I tell myself I must write a certain song, only to have something else worm its way into my consciousness and demand "Write me now, dammit!"

I am always open to new tricks to shake things up, and to unusual choices of chords to affect the harmony of the melody. But every note must serve the lyrics, and every lyric must be singable and flow with the song. One of my pet peeves is a gorgeous poetic lyric and then a clunky prosaic phrase that just thuds and lies there like a dead fish thrown onto a boat deck.

And no matter how much I may like the finished product, I'm always open to suggestions on how to refine it. There is a big difference between believing in your songs and being married to them.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: number 6
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:23 PM

"I don't write songs. I tame them. They are like shy, timid wild creatures. If I approach them too aggressively, they run for cover. I need to coax them out, encouraging them and if they draw back, let them. They will come to me in their own time."

So true Jerry. I find that exactly with writing lyrics.

sIx

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 01:46 PM

Songs usually start with the melody for me - I've very rarely been able to write a song for a given topic, and when I do, it doesn't have much staying power for me. Usually it starts with playing around on an instrument, or hearing a melody in my head, and the melody inspires the lyric. However, like El Greko, I always make sure that the foot of the lyric matches the demands of the melody. No accents on the wrong syllABle for for me!

And I write them quickly - 30 minutes to an hour and a hald, tops. I can think of only one or two songs that ever took me more than a day to write, and thes etook two. As I sing them, they evolve - I correct a fact, or try singing it in a differnt way, or refine the lyrics. I amke sure not to repeat words too often or have rhymes that are too obvious. And if a song isn't working out, I give up.

I'm writing a lot fewer songs than I used to - when I was in college I wrote a song a month, and some of them were pretty good. But most of them weren't really keepers. Now I write one or two a year, most of them keepers, and just keep my ears firmly rooted in the good music that's all around.

My most recent song grew out of a lullabye my mother used to sing to me when I was a child - and somehow developed a story of parents who, through war and economic necessity, were unable to be with their child at night. (It's better in song form!) Where did it come from? I don't know; it was just there. But I like it fairly well.

A friend once told me: "Don't plot. Write." It was good advice.

Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: GUEST,Tim the Twangler
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:58 PM

Hey writing em is easy getting the nerve to sing and play them is hard.
Getting them published and some money coming in?
How do you experts do that?

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:07 PM

...getting the nerve to sing and play the...

You're right there Tim, there's always that first time, and you're thinking is this a load of crap, or, did I unconciously steal this from somewhere

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:52 PM

Money?

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: GUEST,Dan Schatz (laptop)
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:35 PM

Usually if I'm not interested in singing them for myself I'm not interested in singing them for anyone else either. I also sing them for folks I trust - my wife, friends, etc.

I imagine that I've probably let go some commercially viable songs - probably any commercially viable songs - in the name of high standards. I'd never make it in Nashville....

Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:54 PM

Here's how it works in some cases, Tim:

You sing them to friends first. You practice the ones that make it through that net. One day you steel yourself and sing them at a singaround. Then at another. And another. You take note about which ones are most popular and slowly structure a set around them. You keep going to more singarounds, and now you start to travel further and further for that. Eventually you record them and publish them under your own label - at this point you also register them for copyright. You start selling some copies of your album, but probably giving away at least as many as you sell. What you're trying to do through all this is to get the songs heard, to keep them in people's consciousness. By now probably a couple of years have elapsed, and so far you only have costs - for travel, overnight stays, recording.

Now you spend more money. You set up a website, put up some free downloads. Prepare abiography and start sending it round clubs, cafes etc. Your regular clubs might be willing to offer you your first gigs (and they will be very low paid of course, you are a risk). But if you are any good and if the songs are any good you will probably start to get some better gigs within another 6-12 months. And if you have done your work going round venues and singarounds, perhaps some other people have started to sing your songs. Send promotional copies of the album to radio stations and reviewers. Every time you support some bigger name than yourself make sure you sing songs that they might latch on to. Eventually, some may like your songs and take them up. You will get some royalties if they record your songs, but in folk volumes are low and so the royalties you get will be hardly enough to cover your costs for producing the album (if you get 20-25% you are doing well) - that can only come from your album sales and gig fees. So you keep pushing; you keep writing; perhaps produce a second and a third album. And you hope for the day when you will break even.

Five years down that road, I am hoping to break even in 2006 - on annual basis. How long will it take me to cover the losses of 5 years? I don't know, perhaps never. Which gives you a clue:

I am not doing it for the money.

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 05:42 PM

You described it perfectly, El: My only question is "If I keep losing money, why don't I qualify as a Non-Profit organization?"

Jerry

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Anne Lister
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 06:06 PM

Tried to contribute the other night and thought I had but clearly it didn't make it ...Writing songs for me doesn't tend to be something I particularly want to do, it just has to happen. And there are two distinct types of song - one is the songs which get sung into my ear, like taking dictation, and they arrive almost fully formed with very little need to do much to them. The other - the songs that need working at, tweaking and pruning and taking care of. I tend to have most confidence in the first group, but I'm not sure audiences can work out which is which.   
How do I know which ones work best? By testing them out on audiences.   If a new song doesn't stir up much reaction on its first few outings I reckon it's probably not much of a keeper, on the grounds that if I'm putting all this new song energy into performing a new song and it's not making an impact, then it's probably not one of my better efforts. I have high standards and I've probably lost a few good songs that way!
Oh, and I should probably introduce myself under my real name of Anne Lister.   Nice to be here (fairly new Mudcatter).
Anne

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 07:09 PM

Welcome Anne (George Papavgeris here, hardly surprising I suppose).

I found what you said about songs arriving fully formed. It is magical when that happens, isn't it? I have only been blessed with about half a dozen of those, and I'll never forget the first (The flowers & the guns). What I found amazing was the way that the lyrics in that case were dictating the tune (I usually work tune-first). It was as if no other tune could ever fit the phrases.

At the other end of the scale I have my shortest song, which took me the longest to write. The tune arrived suddenly, and with it the title, the subject (prayer-cum-love-song) and the structure of the three verses. Yet the nevessary emotions to allow me to write the song were not there, and it took nine months of trying and failing, until one morning everything was right and the song was competed in 15 minutes.

It shows the degree to which I do NOT control the process, much as I try to. The ones that dictate themselves are invariably all winners. The ones I have to work hard on only produce a 10-20% success rate at best.

Yet I cannot simply wait for the ideas. Like Dan, I play riffs and chord successions, looking for the inspiration. I refer to it as my "faffing around the guitar time", and it mostly produces little of value. But I feel I have to give it the time all the same; don't ask me why, I couldn't answer - it's a sort of ritual, I suppose (and of course at the same time it serves as guitar practice and callous-building).

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 09:11 PM

Jerry - I, for one, don't qualify as a non-profit organization because I am not that organized. Though I am certainly non-profit!

Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 09:16 PM

I'm with you, Dan... although to be truthful, I am pretty organized. Maybe it's my deodorant?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:41 AM

...... lyrics come to me easily, but actual composition's something I struggled with pretty hard ......

...... Then I work on the hard part, which for me is always the production of a tune that fits the mood of the piece. ......

or, on the other side

...... Lyrics I add after the fact. I never write lyrics (which I find the difficult part) first. .........

...... Words are not really my thing - but I keep thinking I should have another go, but never quite get round to it. ......


There are some musical greats out there, such as Cole Porter, who write both word and music and produce classic songs but there are far more writing partnerships and collaborations:
George and Ira Gershwin; Rogers and Hammerstein; Bernstein and Sondheim; Webber and Rice

I don't often sit down to write a tune but I can do it if I put my mind to it. Sometimes one gels over a few weeks of playing interesting but unconnected phrases. Lyrics are another matter entirely. I'm with Leftydee that subject matter is always the problem for me.

Perhaps I should accept my limitations and try working with someone else. Are there any Lincolnshire lyricists out there looking for a melody or two?


DC

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: David C. Carter
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 05:59 AM

Most of my songs have been written on trains,in the car,out walking.Any kind of movement seems to trigger the process.I never write anything down untill it's "finnished".I'm sort of superstitious about that.It's keeping the "pressure" in,keeps me going as it were.Sometimes I'm writing 2 or 3 songs at once,which can get a little tricky.I don't have a subject in mind when writing,more of a "mood",a frame of mind,leaning to the wind.I have always written songs,but it took me a long time to get to believe in them,or that I could do it.When performing them,I mixed them in with other peoples songs,just to see if anyone was going to fall about laughing when I did one of my own.Gradually,I started to leave out everything else and just do what I'd written myself.I think it was that method which gave me confidence,well,more confidence shall we say.But you must believe in what you write,If you don't nobody else will!Having said all that.......!
Good luck to you

David

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 06:54 AM

Hello Tabster (for those of you who don't know she wrote Icarus and Moth - covered by Martin Simpson and others - seriously great songs in anyone's book, and lots more besides).

Songwriting, eh? Well I thought I'd jot down a few notes, a sheet of A4 to hand out at workshops - and before I knew it it was 40 pages long (it's on my site if anyone's really really bored)!

And every time I read a page like this I remember more things to add - it'll be a hardback if I'm not careful. But the brilliant thing about songwriting is that no matter how long you do it, the process remains a mystery. No other art form (that I've tried, anyway) is so ephemeral. Doesn't matter if it comes in one hit (rare for me) or takes months of painful chipping (more typical), good or bad - I still listen to myself singing and go - good grief, where the heck did THAT come from!

The important thing is to do it. Best therapy ever invented.

Tom (stuck half way through verse 2 as usual)

www.tombliss.co.uk

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: GUEST,Tim the Twangler
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 08:34 AM

It is a hard slog then ?
When a song drops ontp your lap fully formed and ready to fly what is you own explanation of it.
MY wife says someone sent them to me(She is only half joking)
Ihink that I have done all the usual stuff to get a song subconciesly(no spell check in here?)
It would be great to know what you all think.
Cheers Tim
I listened to the song El greko mentioned on Radio Britfolk and was moved by it.
Thanks for finding it mate

Subject: RE: Songwriting
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 09:01 AM

Tom said "...where did that come from?" LOL... and SNAP! I use the expression "Who opened the window and let that one in?"