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BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?

Purple Foxx 07 Mar 06 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,TIA 07 Mar 06 - 07:58 AM
GUEST,*daylia* 07 Mar 06 - 07:47 AM
Wolfgang 07 Mar 06 - 07:14 AM
Paul Burke 07 Mar 06 - 06:05 AM
Escamillo 07 Mar 06 - 06:04 AM
Gervase 07 Mar 06 - 06:03 AM
autolycus 07 Mar 06 - 05:30 AM
Paul Burke 07 Mar 06 - 05:29 AM
GUEST 07 Mar 06 - 04:52 AM
Gervase 07 Mar 06 - 04:51 AM
Gervase 07 Mar 06 - 04:40 AM
Bagpuss 07 Mar 06 - 04:08 AM
Paul Burke 07 Mar 06 - 03:35 AM
Bagpuss 07 Mar 06 - 03:27 AM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 12:19 AM
Bill D 06 Mar 06 - 10:10 PM
Bill D 06 Mar 06 - 09:46 PM
GUEST,*daylia* 06 Mar 06 - 09:34 PM
Bill D 06 Mar 06 - 08:56 PM
GUEST,*daylia* 06 Mar 06 - 08:39 PM
Bunnahabhain 06 Mar 06 - 07:32 PM
Clinton Hammond 06 Mar 06 - 07:16 PM
Little Hawk 06 Mar 06 - 07:11 PM
Clinton Hammond 06 Mar 06 - 06:59 PM
Little Hawk 06 Mar 06 - 06:53 PM
bobad 06 Mar 06 - 06:52 PM
Little Hawk 06 Mar 06 - 06:37 PM
Bill D 06 Mar 06 - 06:13 PM
Bill D 06 Mar 06 - 05:46 PM
Clinton Hammond 06 Mar 06 - 05:22 PM
Gervase 06 Mar 06 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,*daylia* 06 Mar 06 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,*daylia* 06 Mar 06 - 05:14 PM
Clinton Hammond 06 Mar 06 - 04:38 PM
Purple Foxx 06 Mar 06 - 04:15 PM
Purple Foxx 06 Mar 06 - 04:14 PM
Little Hawk 06 Mar 06 - 04:13 PM
Gervase 06 Mar 06 - 03:56 PM
Clinton Hammond 06 Mar 06 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,*daylia* 06 Mar 06 - 02:48 PM
Bill D 06 Mar 06 - 02:06 PM
Clinton Hammond 06 Mar 06 - 01:47 PM
Little Hawk 06 Mar 06 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,*daylia* 06 Mar 06 - 01:36 PM
Bagpuss 06 Mar 06 - 01:33 PM
Bagpuss 06 Mar 06 - 01:28 PM
Clinton Hammond 06 Mar 06 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,*daylia* 06 Mar 06 - 01:20 PM
Clinton Hammond 06 Mar 06 - 01:11 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 08:07 AM

Atheistic beliefs from Theistic loins?
Err...no.
As well as presupposing that god(s) created man rather than the opposite.
Atheistic writings predate all of the major world religons with the possible (and highly debatable) exception of Hinduism.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:58 AM

Daylia - adding little smileys after snide comments does not actually make them less snide.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:47 AM

You are less likely than 'ol Bill G to try to mess with my life on the basis of your ideas about me

Mess with your life? Awww ... you sound like such the paranoid, misinformed little camper! Why do you think I have any interest at all in your life or your chart?

Let me put those fears to rest right now, Bill. I do not have any interest in you, your chart or your life Bill. ANd even if I did, how I could possibly mess with it?

YOu're the one choosing to discuss a subject you don't care for, one that you know absolutely nothing about save your life-long prejudices and misconceptions about. You choose to read what I have to say, and to have your own say about it. Now, if you think those choices are 'messing with your life', simple. Choose something else.

so I'll just let the planets go on in their orbits and conjunct as they will. *grin*...

Well, the planets go about thier business without your help or permission anyway, Bill. So, good plan - you right about this at least!

Gervase, I know. the truth can seem quite ghastly at first glance. But once the initial shock wears off and your awareness/understanding deepens a bit, I'm sure you'll feel a bit better.

What I said is the truth. Atheistic beliefs are just as shakey and vulnerable as the theistic ones from whose 'loins' they sprang.

And Wolfgang, peer reviewed journals may be your personal version of the Holy Word, but they honestly mean diddely squat to me. Like many other subjects you enjoy arguing about (even in spite of your ignorance and lack of experience), astrology is still beyond the very limited (but improving quickly!) scope of modern science anyway.

And wow, there sure are a lot of potholes around here today. So many, one can hardly see the road! I'll be sure to wear my hipwaders and rubber boots when I check in later. And I see I've missed one of Ivor's posts -- so I'll be sure to return when time permits.

Have yourselves a star-studded day now,

daylia










.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:14 AM

From an empirical point of view the endeavour of astrology has failed completely (A. Hergovich, Die Psychologie der Astrologie, my translation), is the summary of Hergovich after a thorough review of the literature.

I've written an invited review of Hergovich's book last month and during that work have reread some of the original studies. Over and over again, empirical studies (some even by astrologers) have found no effect. The few that have found effects (Mayo et al., Sachs, Gauqulin,...) had methodological problems. Astrological literature tends to report the initial successes and skip over the later follow-up work.

Autolycos's law of astrological ignorance states that anyone who is a fierce adverse critic of astrology is certain never to have made any kind of serious study of it.

Ivor, (or Daylia) I have not the impression that you have read any of the many original studies about astrology in a serious (peer reviewed) journal. You seem to be talking from a position of ignorance. Some of your statements could come directly from a chapter titled "The excuses of the astrologers" in Hergovichs book.

The only really interesting question is how a belief survives in the teeth of empirical failure. The "feeling of evidence" acts strongly for astrology, in particular among the practitioners. For someone who, like Daylia, puts "personal experience" over all data, this feeling has a hard to resist strength. A fairly recent book by Vyse, The Psychology of Superstition (I have retranslated its German title, the English title may differ) or even the old same-titled book by Jahoda list a number of factors that can lead to a persistence of belief.

BTW, Daylia, I'm still interested whether you have read the Einstein quote with a reference or without.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 06:05 AM

The truly wise man is sure of nothing." What's so special about nothing?

He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, he is a fool, avoid him.

He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, he is a sage, hear him.

He who knows, and knows not that he knows, he is an asset, strip him.

He who knows, and knows that he knows, he is an asshole, f*** him.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Escamillo
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 06:04 AM

No, I don´t believe. But I have read a little about it, and didn´t find any astrologer (serious astrologers as they name themselves) who could explain WHICH KIND of energy is somehow influencing or describing the "house where one lives" or the "field where one plays his life". I know, they don't predict, they only describe.

If the birth of a child (why not the conception?) is a physical fact, and some kind of energy determines his/her initial conditions in function of his/her moment and place of birth, HOW SHOULD THAT ENERGY BE MEASURED? Is it gravitational (like the body of the mother) ? Magnetic? Light-related ? Sub-atomic particles ? Cosmic radiation ?

Early astrologers studied only what they saw with their naked eyes, and ignored 99% of what the average student knows today. Modern astrologers should be able to explain the basics of their technique in more modern terms. Complicated calculations are not an answer by themselves.

Otherwise, I understand that most people do need a belief, and if that belief explains how they should behave, it is a real RELIEF and will be more than welcome.

Un abrazo from Buenos Aires
Andrés


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 06:03 AM

Citation is one thing, but why is it that one just gets a pile of quotations in response when one questions matters of faith and belief? Can people not think for themselves, or do they always have to lean on the gnomic words of others?

Let's get a few more off our chests:
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know (Ralph Waldo Emerson),
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation (Oscar Wilde), and
Quotation: the act of repeating erroneously the words of another. (Ambrose Bierce).

Far better than a handful of quotes, however, would be a reference to a proper, peer-reviewed scientific study which said that astrology had any basis in fact. For sure, the time of year in which one is born could have an influence, but the point of astrology is surely the influence of the heavenly bodies (or at least those various stars and satellites on which astrologers agree) on our lives.
Is there anywhere some reputable research which resoundingly proves astrology to be the 'fact' that some here claim it to be? Or should we post-enlightenment types remain sceptical and file it away with chiromancy, tarot, reading the tea leaves, inspecting the livers of freshly-slaughtered sheep and all the other attributes of the deluded and the deluding down the ages?


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: autolycus
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:30 AM

Just to repeat Kendall's quote,"The truly wise man is sure of nothing."

or,"To know that you do not know is the beginning of wisdom." Some twit or other called, what does this say?, funny name, how do you say it?, Socrates. Wild.


Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:29 AM

I was once attacked by Occam's razor gang. Still feel cut up about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:52 AM

I know that the universerse was created by a dustbin man called Reg on his afternoon off down in the potting shed. There is absolutely no evidence that the non belief in this is true, therefore it is just as much a faith position as any other. But because I don't believe in Reg, I know him to be true, then it must be so.

Anyone ever heard of Occam's Razor?


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:51 AM

Sorry - that was a tad ad hominem, but sometimes frustration makes boors of us all. Apologies Daylia if that comes across as a personal attack - it's your beliefs I want to rattle, not your bones!


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:40 AM

Atheism is a belief in non-belief. There is just as much "scientific" evidence of the cherished (and shakey) beliefs of atheism as for the cherished (and shakey) beliefs of religion.
Notta smidgeon.
Atheistic beliefs are every bit as shakey and vulnerable as the theistic variety that spawned them.
However, knowledge - specifically, truthful knowledge - is not. Even in the presence of the deepest, darkest, dirtiest and most dangerous of potholes.


Is tht really your sincerely held view? If it is and you're not being ironic, sarcastic or in some way satirical, then I'm aghast.
Aghast at the apparent smug self-satisfaction with an ignorance that effectively snuffs out the Enlightenment and would have us back in the Dark Ages intellectually. You may not like the real world and find it overly challenging, but you can't just make it go away it with such twaddle.
I really do suggest you broaden your reading and challenge yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:08 AM

Well it was Daylia's use of the words both times, so at least she should be internally consistent?


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 03:35 AM

Bagpuss, I suspect we are talking about different meanings of the verb 'to know' here. Don't ask me why, I just know we are.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 03:27 AM

Well Daylia, it seems I now know more about certain basic aspects of astrology than you do. You keep telling me I have to know more about it to understand it properly. Maybe you do too.

You didnt just say you werent an expert, you said you weren't an expert, but you did KNOW certain things. These things that you knew were not backed up by someone more expert in astrology than you. [Well I'm no expert, but I do know that astrology doesn't predict a thing. Astrology is a description, not a prediction. That's been explained several times already on this thread. So the answer's no, Bagpuss.]

Belief can be shaken, knowledge cannot??? If what I quoted to you doesn't shake at least on bit of knowledge you thought you had, then it isn't because knowledge cannot be shaken, it is because you refuse to allow it to be shaken.

And I never managed to get to the point of what I was trying to say which was that given what that astrologer said and given that there has indeed been such a study of time twins which showed what he expected from astrology was false, that should be enough to make anyone question the validity of what they believe/"know".

If you were really interested in whether what you believe in is true, you might read this study as a starting place. If not, then maybe it shows that you are happy to believe in something that is not true because it brings you some sort of happiness to do so. And that's fine, but we will all know where we stand. Here is the study in question.

"You want to argue? Bother someone else."

I am only bothering those who choose to be bothered by participating in a thread which centres on a debate about the validity of astrology. If you never wanted to be part of such a debate, then why were you here all this time. You were fighting your corner, and as much a part of the debate as the rest of us. In fact if you weren't here the thread would probably have died long ago. Debate needs two sides you know.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 12:19 AM

Bill, I know you believe in life. Everybody does...or else they kill themselves. As far as I'm concerned, life is God.

So let me ask you then...what is life? You tell me what you think it is. I think it's conscious being, being consciously aware that "I am" or that "you are". That's life. Without such conscious being there is no awareness whatsoever. Without any awareness there is no life.

That's my opinion. I don't give a frog's patootie if that's not good enough for you or if it fails to meet your stringent standards of "substantiation". I give less than a frog's patootie about that as a matter of fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 10:10 PM

I was typing while you were posting it seems...

No, I am not bothered by your confidence that, having data about my birth, you might know more about me than I do. Bill Gates probably has more yet.

   You are less likely than 'ol Bill G to try to mess with my life on the basis of your ideas about me, so I'll just let the planets go on in their orbits and conjunct as they will. *grin*...

(That's Denver, Colorado, 5:34 AM, May 20, 1939...Mercy Hospital (if it still exists) Now you can explain, at least to yourself, why I am so tedious about trying to make discussions balanced.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:46 PM

ok, *daylia*...I guess you have outlasted me. You are now just repeating the same unfounded statements and arbitrary 'definitions'. More rounds of "No, it isn't" "Yes, it is" won't serve much purpose.

   I see no evidence that you even see the point I was making, so we can't compare many ideas from here on .....

   Your position about astrology hasn't been DIS-proved by anything I said, so I'll leave it at that. (We Taurans are pretty stubborn, I hear)....there's enough up above to re-read if you ever get the urge.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:34 PM

Philosopher or not, just like everyone else on the planet you see only what you want to see, Bill. And that's if you can bypass seeing only that which YOU actually are (but are mostly unaware of, as Ivor pointed out) in everything and everyone around you.

Does it bother you to think that I (or LH or Ivor or whoever) really do know the truth about a lot of things you still haven't a clue about? Or that there are other ways of knowing besides the one you happen to be accustomed to?

Or could it be because Venus went inconjunct Uranus tonight?


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 08:56 PM

You were doing fine there, Little Hawk, agreeing with my explanation of different types of 'atheism'...and even enlarging on my description of you as a Pantheist-- but then you had to end it with the same type of linguistic fuzziness as *daylia* used:

"
Atheists also believe in life. Therefore, atheists believe in my God, they just don't realize it!"

The first part of that, if it means anything, is either trivially true or a rank overgeneralization....or so ambiguous as to be silly.

The 2nd part is both incorrect and a logical fallacy based on unsubstantiated premises.

My God = life,
Atheists believe in Life
Therefore atheists believe in my God.

'life' does not fit the usual definition of a God...1st premise is an equivocation on the term.

Atheists are unlikely to USE the word 'believe' in that way, so 2nd premise commits the 'fallacy of ambiguity' as well as not being accurate.

The conclusion therefore, although it sort of follows logically from the premises, fails because of the status of the premises.

...and no, it ISN'T a matter of opinon how the logic can be applied. The rules of logic are as close to an absolute as anything we can discuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 08:39 PM

Atheism is a belief in non-belief. There is just as much "scientific" evidence of the cherished (and shakey) beliefs of atheism as for the cherished (and shakey) beliefs of religion.

Notta smidgeon.

Atheistic beliefs are every bit as shakey and vulnerable as the theistic variety that spawned them.

However, knowledge - specifically, truthful knowledge - is not. Even in the presence of the deepest, darkest, dirtiest and most dangerous of potholes.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 07:32 PM

You know Issac Newton? The first person to explain why the Planets orbit they way they do?

Well, most of his work was actually on decoding the Book of Revalation. He was an expert on it. He still didn't manage to make it into the date of the end of the world, or even a recipe for mushroom kebabs.

Just being an expert and a genius isn't enough to make randomness into anything more.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 07:16 PM

From Chris Rocks "No Sex In The Champagne Room"

Here's a horoscope for everyone-
Aquarius- your gonna die
Capricorn- your gonna die
Gemini- your gonna die twice
Leo- your gonna die
Scorpio- your gonna die f*ckin

"physical life has its drawbacks"
As it's the only life we have any evidence for, it sure beats FK outa the alternative....


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 07:11 PM

It's already getting my body, man...what a drag, eh? This physical life has its drawbacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:59 PM

" I believe in Life. To me, it's holy. To me it's eternal."

Talk New Age all ya want, it's old age gonna get you in the end....

Or in the immortal words of GTA3s "Lazlow", "Go hug a rainbow!"

:-P


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:53 PM

Right...


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:52 PM

"I believe in Life"

It's not what it used to be http://www.life.com


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:37 PM

Atheism is non-belief in a certain type of God...the God you imagine in your mind when you make up this idea about the God you don't believe in. That God may in no wise resemble the God of someone else who does believe in what he terms "God".

To put it more simply, Bill...and Clinton...I ALSO do not believe in the God you don't believe in! ;-P But I do believe in God. But not the God of the Bible, per se. And not the God that is separate from you or me or anyone else. And not the God that judges people.

I believe in Life. To me, it's holy. To me it's eternal. To me, it is God. It belongs to no religion, but they do make attempts to describe it now and then or they say something about it.

Atheists also believe in life. Therefore, atheists believe in my God, they just don't realize it!


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:13 PM

"..beliefs may be certainly shaken. Knowledge cannot."

please don't deduce from that shaky notion (if it IS true, it is only trivially true)that "If it's not shaken, it must be knowlege." Then you get stubborness defining fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 05:46 PM

"Atheism is a belief in nonbelief."

piffle! That is just playing with words and defining concepts narrowly to suit your interests.
Besides, you'll find levels and varieties of atheism, just as you find many modes of religiosity (did I just coin a term?)

Some atheists vehemently oppose 'belief' while others simply say they choose to 'not accept' religious beliefs without more evidence. Others oppose 'religion' but not belief per se. Still others react to specific religious claims, but embrace some sort of Pan-Theism (much as Little Hawk suggests in many posts)...a lot of fundamental Christians would label him an atheist for not accepting God, Jesus and strict interpretation of the Bible)...

we can debate, but tossing "bumper sticker" type slogans around hardly promotes understanding.

(I hope you realize that, much as you said earlier, critiquing arguments has nothing to do with judging you as a person....I'd hope that we could, if necessary, conduct a more detailed debate over coffee and still smile at the end)

(to put it differently, I don't debate with fools that I suspect are not even trying and won't even hear me....I could point to threads I don't go near! *grin*)


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 05:22 PM

Depends what you think you know....

A few hundred years ago, people KNEW the world was flat...

John Nash KNEW he had a room-mate when he was in university....

A good friend of mine KNEW he could fly when he jumped off a 10 story building and killed himself...

So, ill-informed, mentally ill, or on drugs.... what's your excuse Daylia?


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 05:20 PM

At the risk of sounding like a Monty Python sketch, no it's not. Atheism is non belief in a god. Full stop. There is no 'belief' involved.
A belief is simply that which is believed as accepted opinion or which is taken as true in the absence of knowledge based on empirical truth.
Athiests want facts, believers tend not to need them.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 05:17 PM

ANd Gervase -- beliefs may be certainly shaken. Knowledge cannot.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 05:14 PM

Atheism is a belief in nonbelief.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:38 PM

"No amount of logic is going to dislodge that belief"

I have no desire to dislodge any belief... If you want to believe the world is hollow and that the moon is made of green cheese, you go right ahead....    just don't expect me to 'respect' your beliefs-based-on-delusion just because they happen to be dear to you....


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:15 PM

As is atheism.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:14 PM

Athism by definition is about nonbelief.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:13 PM

Yup. Same thing that happens when you shake someone's belief in atheism...


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 03:56 PM

Clinton - it's like religion. Some people have a need to believe in this sort of thing; it's a touchstone against the apparent randomness and inchoate nature of existence. No amount of logic is going to dislodge that belief, any more than an atheist can convince the devoutly religious, because belief lies beyond the realm of logic.
And even if you were to shake someone's belief in astrology, they'd probably replace it with something else.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 02:50 PM

" That is not the case here."

But it is... Einstein didn't say what you tried to claim he said...


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 02:48 PM

Bagpuss, do these words ring a bell? "I'm no expert." "Astrologer is only a hobby to me." "I'm no astrologer."

YOu want you answers you can trust? Ask an astrologer, or study it yourself till you're satisfied. You want to argue? Bother someone else.

Clinton, when I know I'm wrong, I say so if I feel it's necessary. That is not the case here.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 02:06 PM

ok. strike Elves...I sure wouldn't want to offend anyone's sensibilities here....in place of elves, substitute "fairies"...now there's a neutral subject, goldurn it! ☺


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:47 PM

" even if they are not Einstein's words, they ARE the truth. Very poetically expressed"

See again.. you cannot even admit when you're wrong... You tried to lend credence to your 'side' by calling in an authority (Who wasn't an authority at all as a matter of fact).. When people called BS, you ignored that fact and try to claim it has value anyway... Your backpedalling must be damn good exercise...

Well, on the subject of find a good quote to support your argument....

"You can't always have things like they are in poetry. Poetry isn't what you'd call truth. There ain't room enough in the verses"
--a singers commentary on "The Ballad Of Sam bass," taken from "A Treasure Of American Folklore"


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:46 PM

Bill, I strongly suggest that you leave Elves out of this discussion, okay? ;-D It's a sensitive matter with a lot of people.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:36 PM

So say you, Clinton, and a few of the other "potholes" here. Don't need astrology to predict that!

If I can find the source again (the quote is said to be taken from Einstein's personal letters) I'll post it here.

And even if they are not Einstein's words, they ARE the truth. Very poetically expressed, too (don't know if I'd have gone as far as 'life-giving elixir' bit but ...)


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:33 PM

So why then would an astrologer say the following? I am going to quote from astrologers from now on wherever I can in order to clarify what astrology does or does not say/predict/describe. And also because Daylia might consider these people authorities whose word she trusts in relation to astrology.

"According to John Addey (1967), in perhaps themost extensive survey of time twins made by an astrologer, 'one would expect to find really exceptional [his emphasis] similarities of life and temperament only in those born almost exactly at the same time
[within a few minutes] and in the same locality', nevertheless 'the tendency for similarities to appear in the lives of those born on the same day must remain strong and well worth investigating' (p. 14). So births more than a day apart might not qualify."

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:28 PM

But surely of a group of 2000 children are born with similar tendencies, they are going to grow up with personalities more similar than if they had completely different tendencies? Otherwise what is the point of astrology, if all it says is that you are born with this tendency, but it will have no effect of the way you are now, as you may or may not realise these tendencies, and whether or not you realise them will be no greater than chance in the general population?


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:23 PM

"those charts display tendencies, or potentials, which may or may not ever be realized by the individual"

If I wrote long enough I could come up with a list of "tendencies, or potentials" that would apply to every human on the planet, and (probably even some who believe in astrology)

That it was generalized enough to be applicable in some way to everyone still wouldn't make it worth the paper it was written on....


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:20 PM

Well I'm no expert, but I do know that astrology doesn't predict a thing. Astrology is a description, not a prediction. That's been explained several times already on this thread. So the answer's no, Bagpuss. Sure, those babies would have similar charts, but even 10 minutes difference in birthtime or a 20-mile difference in location makes for significant changes as we've seen. And as Ivor explained above, those charts display tendencies, or potentials, which may or may not ever be realized by the individual.


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Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:11 PM

"I look to Einstein, and I ponder his wise words very carefully"
Except those aren't his words....   Ponder THAT carefully....

"I wouldn't ask Clinton! Or Bill, or Wolfgang"
So you only want to ask people who agree with you!?!? Go right ahead... You can get together in one big circle-jerk of self-delusion...


" Since we haven't FOUND Atlantis"
We're never going to either, because it NEVER existed... Plato was writing FICTION when he invented it...


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