BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Janie
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 08:25 AM

Yes, well said indeed, Paul.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 05:37 AM

Thank you for that, Paul - I can see myself stealing those words! Very elegantly expressed.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:47 AM

Beautifully put Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Mar 06 - 03:45 AM

Except that you can have meanings with different scopes. The view that the universe is essentially meaningless- big bang to big crunch, or evaporation- doesn't preclude local meanings over a humanly comprehensible time span. I happen to think that it's people and cultures that create these meanings, and that we have to work for them, rather than that they are given by some external force.

So a life of otherwise dull routine and poverty interspersed with pointless tragedy can be given rich meaning by the human care for parents, children and neighbours, and by the mutually generated culture that they share. This is purely spiritual- but it doesn't require the existence of any spirits.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Janie
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 07:28 PM

I don't know where this post should go. I guess this is as good (or as bad) a place as any.

My kid goes is in middle school at a Friends (Quaker) school. He came home in stitches today. One of the science classes is doing a project about the Big Bang theory. One kid brought in a big poster with a Gary Larson 'Far side' cartoon on it.

It was the Genesis Big Bang theory. The angel Gabriel is standing on a cloud, looking a little bored and feckless.
There is a huge hand descending from the sky, index finger pointing. A voice says "Gabriel,pull my finger!"

Now THAT is anthropomorphic!

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: John O'L
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 05:44 PM

Fair comment LH. I stand corrected. Once again I need to be reprimanded for my casual & reckless misuse of words.
If only I could work out how to use that damn thesaurus.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 05:35 PM

You could word it a bit differently, John. "Meaning" rather than "purpose". Purpose presupposes that something specific is waiting to be accomplished, and the spiritual view does not necessarily require that at all...but it DOES require meaning. Either everything has meaning and is intimately connected with the meaning of everything else around it...or everything doesn't have meaning and it's all accidental.

I think that's the essential divide right there.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: John O'L
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 05:29 PM

There are two possiblilties:
Either everything happened for a purpose or everything just happened.
Each of us has to choose which is the least unlikely.

Everything else is concerned with what happened afterwards.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 05:16 PM

So...you're assuming that existence doesn't exist? Or did I misapprehend your definition of "God"? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 05:11 PM

God is a hypothesis. Logically, I suppose, one must start by assuming he doesn't exist and then review the evidence to the contrary. I reckon that what evidence does exist is either circumstantial or anecdotal ...

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: lady penelope
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 04:56 PM

Quite so.....   :)

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 04:54 PM

The same principle applies to wiener dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: lady penelope
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 04:04 PM

I don't believe in gods. It just encourages them........

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 01:13 PM

and he disguises himself

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 01:07 PM

gets around, don't he?

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: frogprince
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 12:17 PM

"God Is In" by Billy Jonas (www.billyjonas.com)

God is in the child's eyes, see them wide, wondrous, wise • God is in the rain and snow, and each snowflake: this we know • God is in the trees and air; the rocks, the birds, the bees, the bears • God is in the clouds above; God is in each act of love • God is in the oceans deep, some say God goes there to sleep • God is in the mountains high, whistling a lullaby • God is in the darkest woods, God is in your neighborhood • God is in a place that's near; sometimes it's just not so clear • God is in .... God is in .... God is in .... God is in .... God is in .... God is in

God is in your strangest pleasure; some say God is into leather • God is into body piercing; in your nipple, lip, and nose ring • God is in your new tattoo, in your scars and birthmarks too • God is in your brand new nose in your control top pantyhose • God is in the latest fad, except for bungy jumping -- thats dangerous and bad • God is in your cellular phone, God will not leave you alone • God is in the internet, wondering why you're not there yet • God is in Vogue, and Spin, and Rolling Stone cuz God is IN! God is in .... God is in .... God is in .... God is in ....God is in .... God is in

God is in the Christian house; bread and wine and holy cross • God is in the Jewish home; shalom chaverim, shalom • God is in the Muslim, Allah hu akbar salaam • God is in the Hindu way, jai bagwan! namaste • God is in those dancing Pagans, in each drop of perspiration • God is in the Wicken coven; twelve plus one -- a perfect dozen! • God is in the Druid's song, that's why they go on so long • God is in the Buddhist's chair saying "don't just do something -- sit there!" • God is in the Vatican; God goes there for vacation • God is in the Quaker meeting, sleeping 'til they start the singing • God is in your guru; how do you spell that? "Gee, you - are - you" • God is in the atheist, saying "yeah, I don't exist" • God is in the flowing Tao, then and now and now and now • God is in the Rastaman; I and I and on and on • God is in the Moonie wedding; who getswho -- begin the betting • God is in the Hare Krishna, rub their heads and make a wish now • God is in .... God is in .... God is in .... God is in .... God is in .... God is in

God is in your bank account, sometimes juggling the amount • God is in your ATM, counting bills and stacking them • God is in your college fund, laughing cuz it's gone gone gone • God is in your IRA, adding interest every day • God is in your pocket change, your job is giving it to strangers • God is in the beggar's cup; sometimes God just fills it up • God is in the empty hand, spent it all on cheap Almaden; • God was in the S & L's but left, that's why they went to hell • God is in the Wal-Mart; greets you with a shopping cart • God is in your old jalopy, makes it go when it should not be • God is in the Greyhound bus, sitting in back, watching us • God is in 'tourist class,' on a frequent flyer pass • God is in the pilot light; dancing through the night • God is in the radio, Wolfman Jack told me so • God is in the microwave, unless you try to use something metal -- then the microwave is the devil; also don't microwave with plastic wrap cuz it forms molecular bonds with your food and turns your intestines into Tupperware • God is in your Tupperware, but not the lids so buy some spares • God is in .... God is in .... God is in .... God is in .... God is in .... God is in

God is in the ozone layer; holier and holier • God is in the atom bomb, or at least the atom bomber's mom • God is in Chechnya, Sobrenica, Slovenica, Serbia, Bosnia, Herzegovia, Montana, Oklahoma • God is incredulous at all the stuff we do to us • God is inspired by those who fly and those who try • God is insatiable so sing and dance way past full • God is in you and me, someday God will help us see that • God is in love with love so live and love and that's enough • God is inside of you and all you don't and all you do • God is in your greatest doubt, the jury's out, the doctor's out, but • God is in, God is in, God is in your darkest sin, and out and in, and out and in, and God is in .... Goddess in .... God is Zen .... Got us in .... God is in

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 12:13 PM

You better start f***ing believe in me!

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 12:11 PM

My God is the one over there.

John P. the issue you have rega regarding Christians in the U.S. can be found in any religion, anywhere in the world.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 11:56 AM

Is that different from "The Only One" and "The Real One"?...

Is the Left One inferior to "The Right One"?

Do "The Wrongs Ones" pout and complain?

Can I interview the candidates, please?

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 11:44 AM

I believe in the one on the left.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: John P
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 10:12 AM

The second worse thing about some religions, for me, is the whole "this is the only, one, true way to God" thing. It has always struck me as egotistical. And sure to cause strife. It's almost like they're out looking for a fight. Love your enemies, indeed.

Why is it that of all the perfectly good religions on earth, the Christians have all the power and the Muslims have all the oil? I think they may be the two most self-involved gangs of believers around. They've created situations where they either have to clash or admit that someone else's idea might be just as good as their own. Which is something that neither group -- at least not the majorities in each group -- can do.

Maybe the third worse thing about religion here in the United States, for me, is the attitude that so many Christians have that their religion is only thing that could possibly provide anyone with any moral compass. As if ethical behavior can't be arrived at through reason, or genuinely good people can't exist outside of the church. The idea that "the only way we can teach kids to be good is to instill religious beliefs in them" sucks. What a bunch of self-important, patronizing jerks.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 09:28 AM

Religion can sometimes also be about questioning all dogmas...other than one's own.

Depends on the religion, though. Hinduism and the Bahai faith, for example, have historically tended to be much more open-minded in that respect than Christianity, Judaism, or Islam have.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 09:18 AM

I apologise for mine and LH's silly behaviour ... but sometimes a thread needs a little bit of diversion to keep it alive and to get itself back on topic.

Basically if one believes ... does it matter to anyone else 'which one' ... as we all are one in the eyes of God.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 09:13 AM

Philosophy is concerned with the undermining & questioning of all Dogmas,whereas religion is all about accepting & supporting them.
This do?

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 09:12 AM

OK....my Army dog-tags say "no religious preference". That seems to cover it.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 09:05 AM

Well, that's true. Someone needs to make an on-topic post to get things back on track. Do I hear any volunteers?

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: John P
Date: 02 Mar 06 - 08:47 AM

BORING . . . the last ten posts, and several before that, have been off-topic drivel. How rude.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 10:18 PM

Yeah .... bring that into the picture LH ... cover up all the crime in Mariposa that Chongo has been involved with on specist rhetoric ... Chongo is guilty and that's all there is to it ... he is one bad dude.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 10:12 PM

LOL! Boy, I think it's pretty insensitive of you to talk about a professional dick (private eye, shamus) like that...matter of fact, I think you're verging on specist rhetoric there, Number 6.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 10:08 PM

I knew it, I knew it.

I'm sure the RCMP will have an all points bulletin out for Chongo ... I'm certainly gonna keep an eye out for any suspicious monkeys wearing pork pie hats and driving vehicles with Otnario licence plates out this way.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 10:02 PM

Funny you should mention that. 3 houses got busted last night in Orillia, all major pot-growing operations. The police netted $1.8 million in plants and equipment. The whole town is talking about it.

Chongo will be quite interested, I'm sure. He's away right now.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 09:59 PM

I have a mind to go and give Raptor a big talking to also ...... I've heard rumours Chongo is running the illegal drug trade in Orillia. That's he is even top monkey in the Huronia Cartel.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 09:50 PM

That is a blatant lie. Raptor spread a bunch of false rumors about it. Chongo is going to pay him a visit and give him a good talkin' to.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 09:36 PM

Hey ... I thought that low life monkey overed on hard drugs!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Auggie
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 09:35 PM

RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?


Yes.

The Real One.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 09:28 PM

We need Chongo in the Oval Office, but he says he wouldn't take the job if they gave it to him.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 09:24 PM

Guest Tia .... goddammit, obsession with a monkey makes a man downright mean !!

There was this Republican President once in the U.S. of A. ... aw, forget it, never mind.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: GUEST,Ingrid Frances Stark
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 08:58 PM

Balance.

That which orders the universe (or doesn't) is far beyond our ability to understand, or even comprehend. But the human mind seeks patterns and answers, and sees patterns where, quite possibly none exist.

When it comes to deity, we are much like the blind men and the elephant: each experiences a small part of the whole, a single facet of an infinitly faceted creation.
Some have created religious belief systems around one or another of these facets, and proclaimed, "I have found the truth!" Perhaps they have, but not the whole of it. I think that probably all the world's religions each have a piece of the truth, some of them overlapping, but we poor humans cannot see the entire truth. Let's hear it for mystery!

I started with the word "balance". Nothing exists without its opposite. Light and dark, up and down, left and right, good and evil. Like a pendulum swinging from side to side, or water seeking its own level, all things tend towards a balance. Only our opinions make one wrong and another right. When the pattern is too big to see, we attempt to impose smaller patterns, just so we have a handle to grab. We impose a face and form on the unknown so that we can relate to it, but then forget that the face is our creation, not the other way around.

Ingrid

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 05:56 PM

sIx (28 Feb 06 - 03:01 PM) is soooooo right.

Obsession with Monkey does make a man crazy! In fact, one time I was....

Well, never mind.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 05:45 PM

Rarer than a thinking human? Perhaps not.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 05:43 PM

Kiri-Kin-Tha's First Law of Metaphysics:
Nothing unreal exists.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 05:40 PM

Wow, a talking dragon!

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: John O'L
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 05:36 PM

John P & Clinton (in particular, others also) -

(If it exists), you are requiring empirical proof of that which by definition sets its own parameters. That's what it does. That's its raison d'être. That's why it is. You will never get any such proof. It either exists or it doesn't. You will not be able to measure, weigh it or assign a monetary value to it. It doesn't do those things.

As the dragon said of humans in John Gardner's Grendel -
"Counters and measurers. They only think they think."

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 11:28 AM

How do you know "they" have not already come to see us, Paul, been mildly intrigued but not seriously concerned, and moved on to more important matters?

They might be giving us the once over quite on a regular basis for all you know. That doesn't mean they have to feel under any pressure to land in front of the U.N. or the White House and say, "Take me to your leader."

Maybe we're just not that important in the larger scheme of things that they have any pressing need to do that....

Do we worry about what the apes in Borneo are doing?

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 10:30 AM

Secular humanism has too much of a religion for my taste. I'm a methodological naturalist sensu Laplce's remark about God as the "unnecessary hypothesis".

But do I pretend to know? No.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: John P
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 10:28 AM

Belief is an insult to the mind. Any questions about the origin of human consciousness, or the reason for the Big Bang, or why things are the way they seem to be, are unanswerable with our present level of knowledge. So I've relegated these questions to the "why worry about it?" category. I'm with Clinton in many ways -- show me some evidence and we can talk about it. As far as I know there is not only no proof, but not even any evidence for the existence of any god of any stripe.

I'm also with Janie -- mystery exists. Human beings have the ability to experience something that is known variouly as the "mystery of life" or the "connectedness of all things" or "being one with the universe". I myself have such experiences almost every day. So many people have had such similar experiences, and described them so similarly, that only an idiot would deny they exist. Where many people leave me behind is when they ascribe such experiences to the intervention of a being of some type. We have a spiritual capacity, and in most cases a desire to experience spirituality. But gods? Show me some evidence.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 10:23 AM

My son was asked what his religion was at a hospital just before he was admitted for surgery; when he stated Christian the clerk told him "well thats not enough, we need to know what type of Christian you are" he replied, "an honest one ma'am" I have never been so proud of him as I was then.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 10:14 AM

Persuant to a recent stay in the hospital, I was required st state my religious affiliation. After much soul searching I declared myself a Pastafarian, a devotee of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. One of the nurses understood. The chaplain didn't. A shame, that.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Janie
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 08:13 AM

Great song lyrics, Joe.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 06:12 AM

I suppose I'm a secular humanist, at least I'm not a regular one. Per omnia saecula humanorum.

I'm fairly sure that there are greater intelligences than human, but I think they are bound by the same laws of physics that we are, which is why they haven't broken the speed limit to come and see us.

And if there is an overarching intelligence in the Universe, it is probably the Universe itself, a long, slow intelligence that knows much less of us than we know of our convoluted tubules or mitochondria. Spinoza? perhaps.