Inclusivity? Exclusivity?

Subject: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 04:12 AM

In a very favourable review of Radio 2's "Radio Ballads" published in today's Observer,Miranda Sawyer makes the interesting point that "the project's insistence of defined topics ...would be rejected by lottery or the arts council as not inclusive enough."
In a seperate story the same paper their is a report on MI5's monitoring of Ewan MacColl because of his Communist party membership.
Now I have always tended to the view that the C.P.'S most enduring & influential legacy is the idea that egalitarian aims & objectives are best pursued by elitist policies & practices.
Some would argue that MacColl's approach to Folk Music reflects that belief.
All of which is a starting off point for asking Whether you think Folk is or ought to be exclusive or quite the reverse?

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: GUEST,GUEST:HC
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 07:10 AM

One of those,yes.

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 07:19 AM

A bit of both, surely (I am a Guardian reader). A very blinkered view of life is ultimately self-defeating. On the other hand, a Pigeon Fanciers Society can accommodate a visiting budgerigar or vulture once in a while; but it cannot last long once the proportion of pigeons dips much below 50%

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: BB
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 07:25 AM

Inclusive or exclusive of what?

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 07:54 AM

Inclusive or exclusive of those who wish to participate.
Should a lifelong affection for Slade preclude someone?
Or having previously been lead singer with Monsoon?
Or inadvertantly sitting in the "wrong" seat in a Whitby Pub?
That sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 08:05 AM

Semantically, this thread will just go round in circles.

The words 'inclusive' and 'exclusive' used together remind me of Russell's Paradox about the signs which each show the location of all the other signs in the park. But at the entrance, there is a sign that shows the locations of all the signs in the park that do not each show their own locations.

Now wait for it....

Does the sign at the entrance show the location of itself?

Be back in about 20 years.... if I'm still alive...

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 10:27 AM

Forgive my tardiness in responding,Foolestroupe,I was helping Russell & Wittgenstein remove a recalcitrant Rhino from their rooms.
Having done that I went to wash my hands but the sink had both a hot and a cold tap and ,consequently, disappeared in a puff of logic.
You are right that circular logic only makes people dizzy though.
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann,darueber muss man schweigen."
As a former porter of one of my local hospitals was wont to say.
Good response Greg.

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 10:53 AM

indeed! *smile*...greg has said it eloquently!

You could make the same point about almost any special interest group.
..Should knitters let tatters and needlepoint aficionados visit, join or comment? And aren't these sort of similar to weaving?

A group MUST have some clear definition of its own bounderies, even as it shares the edges with overlapping interests.

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 11:01 AM

Agreed 100% Bill!
All areas of human activity from Politics to Trainspotting contain within them individuals who vary in their degree of interest/commitment.
How welcoming are we/can we/should we be to those in the overlaps?

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 11:35 AM

Membership/participation in "Folk," just like in this forum, is pretty much self-regulating. My musical interests are probably not exsactly the same as yours, but as long as each of us feels at home here, we'll both stick around. Participants who eventually feel excluded or marginalized will eventually select themselves out.

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 11:41 AM

One might argue that once you think of a work of music or art as "folk" you're distancing yourself from it--what's really part of your life is really "folk", but not thought of in those terms.

examples: "Take Me Out to the Ball Game"; "Coming 'Round the Mountain";
etc. etc.

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: BB
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 12:26 PM

Purple Foxx, re your 7.54 am post, that's including whom, not what. No-one should be excluded from folk music - if they don't like what's going on within the genre, they will exclude themselves, so my answer to your examples is a definite no.

However, without getting into the 'What is folk?' debate, those who are part of the scene may decide that some musical material should be excluded, or more probably discouraged, and this will differ to some extent in different situations - pub sessions, clubs, concerts or whatever - depending largely on the organisers or those who regularly attend the particular venue. It seems likely to me that if someone's offering is radically different from anyone else's within the situation, they themselves will feel uncomfortable listening to the other music in that situation, or bringing their music into it. Again, they may well exclude themselves or alter their style of music accordingly.

I prefer to perform traditional or traditional-style music, but I would also encourage a wide church, and I feel that clubs and sessions which only serve up traditional or singer/songwriter or blues or contemporary or whatever, do no service to the folk music we profess to love.

What we should be encouraging is *good* music, and those clubs that existed with that in mind in the sixties and seventies spread the word and got large numbers of people involved, not just as audience but as participators, even if only in the choruses. That is something that seems to me to have disappeared to a horrendous extent in the club scene. I've nothing against 'entertainment', but I really don't like the 'sit back and entertain me' attitude of many audiences, which is perhaps encouraged by the 'concert'-style clubs.

Yes, I know this avoids the bad floor-singer syndrome, but for me, part of a club organiser's job should be to find ways to encourage and help their club singers to improve their skills, repertoire or whatever.

Sorry, I've got a bit passionate here, and gone on a bit, but my answer is: inclusive of people and their music, and the rest will probably work itself out.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 12:31 PM

One 'might' argue that, Dick...*grin*..and one 'might' argue that by clarifying your general definition, you're making it easier to find, participate in what you wish to explore, and filter extraneous stuff masquerading as folk.

"Hey...I'm going to a concert, wanna come along?"

"Oh?...what kind?"

"Folk music.."

"Really?...who is it?"

"Some young Celtic group with electric bagpipes. Their lead singer has written some really neat stuff about politcal responsiblity."

"Ummm....no thanks."

'Distancing' is valuble if is saves you $15 and a bad evening.... ;>)

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 12:34 PM

NEVER apologise for being passionate about anything BB.
I am rather new 'round these parts so I am genuinely asking for information.
Please accept my sincerest thanks for your well thought out informative & very well written response.
You have certainly given me something to consider.
Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: autolycus
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 02:18 PM

Can't see why the sign at the entrance needs to show itself.

It shows itself by being at the entrance (assuming you can find the entrance.)

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 08:20 PM

Stop it autolycus, you'll go blind!

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 08:28 PM

Oh, BTW, if you look on most public signs that show area map/locations (supermarkets, etc), you will almost always find a 'you are here' position.

An answer extracted by pragmatism, rather than theory.

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: Grab
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 09:12 AM

"the project's insistence of defined topics ...would be rejected by lottery or the arts council as not inclusive enough."

Sounds like rubbish to me. If you were just doing one programme, then maybe. But if you're doing a whole bunch of them, I don't see why it would be "not inclusive enough". And even if it was only one, it's then up to the Arts Council to distribute funding to other groups to get diversity. After all, you're not going to get many Indian classical musicians playing Western classical music, but that shouldn't stop both Indian and English musicians getting funding.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 09:15 AM

Miranda Sawyer has a very silly fringe.

Subject: RE: Inclusivity? Exclusivity?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 10:18 AM

bill D.-
My personal definition of folk music essentially comes down to what I like---which makes it a perfectly useless definition for anyone else.