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BS: Remember the Alamo

DigiTrad:
REMEMBER THE ALAMO
THE BALLAD OF THE ALAMO


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mkebenn 06 Mar 06 - 12:50 PM
Little Hawk 06 Mar 06 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 06 Mar 06 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,number 6 06 Mar 06 - 01:19 PM
leftydee 06 Mar 06 - 01:47 PM
Little Hawk 06 Mar 06 - 01:52 PM
Peace 06 Mar 06 - 01:53 PM
GUEST 06 Mar 06 - 01:58 PM
Alba 06 Mar 06 - 02:33 PM
Wesley S 06 Mar 06 - 02:52 PM
mkebenn 06 Mar 06 - 04:10 PM
Little Hawk 06 Mar 06 - 04:17 PM
Greg F. 06 Mar 06 - 05:55 PM
artbrooks 06 Mar 06 - 06:15 PM
Rapparee 06 Mar 06 - 06:28 PM
Little Hawk 06 Mar 06 - 06:31 PM
Rapparee 06 Mar 06 - 06:37 PM
Little Hawk 06 Mar 06 - 06:38 PM
Rapparee 06 Mar 06 - 06:41 PM
Greg F. 06 Mar 06 - 06:41 PM
Little Hawk 06 Mar 06 - 06:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 06 - 06:58 PM
Little Hawk 06 Mar 06 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 06 Mar 06 - 07:23 PM
bobad 06 Mar 06 - 07:37 PM
Peace 06 Mar 06 - 07:47 PM
Rapparee 06 Mar 06 - 07:53 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Mar 06 - 08:06 PM
Rapparee 06 Mar 06 - 08:10 PM
Big Mick 06 Mar 06 - 09:01 PM
NH Dave 06 Mar 06 - 09:10 PM
Bobert 06 Mar 06 - 09:37 PM
Peace 06 Mar 06 - 09:52 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Mar 06 - 10:51 PM
Peace 06 Mar 06 - 10:52 PM
Rapparee 06 Mar 06 - 11:32 PM
Peace 06 Mar 06 - 11:36 PM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 12:10 AM
Paul Burke 07 Mar 06 - 03:37 AM
Ron Davies 07 Mar 06 - 07:24 AM
Ron Davies 07 Mar 06 - 07:29 AM
Rapparee 07 Mar 06 - 07:30 AM
mkebenn 07 Mar 06 - 07:56 AM
Greg F. 07 Mar 06 - 08:34 AM
Paul Burke 07 Mar 06 - 08:52 AM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 10:32 AM
Peace 07 Mar 06 - 10:35 AM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 10:48 AM
Peace 07 Mar 06 - 10:51 AM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 10:56 AM

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Subject: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: mkebenn
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 12:50 PM

The thirteen days of glory ended at 6:00am this day one hundred and seventy years ago. Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:08 PM

Yeah. A very dramatic story. I really enjoyed the recent movie, which was far more accurate than past attempts. They showed the final attack as it really happened, in the predawn hours. The portrayal of David Crockett was wonderful...for a change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:16 PM

An excellent book on the topic is Stephen Harrigans "Gates of the Alamo"


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:19 PM

I agree with you LH ... that recent movie was well done.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: leftydee
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:47 PM

I was at the Alamo a few years back and realised the walls are only 5'high or so. It sure wasn't the picture I had in mind from old movies. The boys that defended it surely had cajones, common sense......not so much


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:52 PM

They had painted themselves into a corner. This was not helped by the fact that Santa Anna considered them as "pirates", not a legal army, and accordingly had no intention of sparing the lives of any that fell into his hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:53 PM

Rivals Thermopylae for courage, but in the course of human warfare there have been many such battles. It's about time it stopped, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 01:58 PM

Davey Crockett red hot violin virtuoso superstar !

yeah the recent new movie was worth watching on DVD..

but curious to know which character Russell Crowe had been intended to play
before money talks ruled him out ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Alba
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 02:33 PM

Gates of the Alamo was very good Wesley. Another book I really liked on the topic is Brian Kaufman's, The Breech.
J


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 02:52 PM

I'll look it up. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: mkebenn
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:10 PM

The new movie was great, and Billy Bob nailed the ambivilance of Crockett's position. Has anyone read Stephan Hardin's "Texas Iliad"? He was involed in the new flick and many of the Hist. Channel's shows.I grew up worshiping at the Fess Parker shrine, but the more I learn, the more I appreciate the sacrifice. No Alamo, no Texas Republic. No Texas Republic, no Mexican war. No mexican war, no anexing New Mexico and California. No anexetion, no continental nation. The most meaningful meaningless battle in history. Remember the Alamo!!!! Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 04:17 PM

A disaster for Mexico...and a windfall for the USA. Mexico is a country with a very tragic history.

What Santa Anna ought to have done was bypass the Alamo or leave an adequate force behind to besiege it...and advance immediately deeper into Texas and crush the rebellion. I'd say he was just a tad overconfident.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 05:55 PM

Yup, the "Texas Republic"- a buncha U.S. slaveholders illegally taking possession of a portion of a foreign country so they could get around the fact that Mexico had abolished slavery & thus make lotsa money.

Another sordid episode brought to you by U. S. "Manifest Destiny" and the Slaveocracy.

No Texas Republic, no Mexican war. No mexican war, no anexing New Mexico and California.

And this possibly most useless & idiotic of U.S. wars [barring the War of 1812, of course] and these territorial thefts were admirable things?

Its amazing the absolute crap some folks can find to celebrate & admire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:15 PM

Of the 178 Alamo defenders whose places of origin are known, 39 came from slave states, 47 from border states (Kentucky, Maryland and Tennessee), 48 from free states, 12 were born in Texas (7 of these had Spanish surnames) and 32 were born outside of the Americas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:28 PM

What I've found interesting about the Alamo have been the survivors. Even, possibly, Crockett (although he was killed after the place was taken).


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:31 PM

Yup. History is written by the winners. Never been an army yet that didn't think they were the good guys. And they all are...from their own point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:37 PM

I think it's a damned shame that our ancestors weren't the angels we obviously are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:38 PM

Too true. Why, if they were....think what a perfect world we would have today, eh, Rap? ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:41 PM

Right. We wouldn't have a damned thing to bitch about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:41 PM

Art-

I'm not talking about the poor dumb bastards taking bullets in the front line, but about those running the show from safety & feeding the poor slobs the bulls$hit about "The Cause" & etc....

Things ain't changed all that much in 150 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:53 PM

And that, Rap, could drive some people to drink...or worse! Things like chronic self-abuse or channel-surfing or watching the WWF...


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 06:58 PM

Santa Anna considered them as "pirates", not a legal army

The modern term is "illegal combatants".


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 07:12 PM

Yeah. They get no respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 07:23 PM

latest movie version is a definite advance on the old john wayne
'classic'
saturday matinee hero worship ego fest..

but still leaves out too much to fit convenient running time and budget..

it'd be very interesting to see what an HBO mini series with
production values and intelligence/iconoclasm

of "Deadwood" and "Rome"

could do with this facinating 'true-life' saga..


maybe 10 episodes with the Alamo siege occupying the middle 4 or 5 episodes,
but with more time devoted to presenting the historical/political build up and consequences..

and the follow up massacre that i've forgotten the
name of and dont recall
ever seeing depicted in a movie..??


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 07:37 PM

I recall reading an account of Davey Crockett the "injun" hunter, who as a hired exterminator for the U.S. government leading a gang of hunters, trapped a group of indians in a farmhouse which they proceeded to set afire. Davy recorded in his diary how they dined on roasted potatoes that were in the cellar and were deliciously basted with the melted fat of the injuns.

Needless to say my Disnified image of Davey Crockett was altered and his demise at the Alamo was no longer the tragic loss that had been   inculcated into the impressionable children of our generation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 07:47 PM

Congressman. They still dine on bodies--just at an arm(y)'s distance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 07:53 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 08:06 PM

Those at the meetings that led to the Texas Republic took advantage of the fact that under Santa Ana and his rich landowner support, many in the area considered their freedom was restricted and the constitution had been subverted. Of those who formed the Republic, only 2 were native Texans, one had been born in Mexico, and the majority were from the United States and Europe. Only ten had been in Texas in 1836. Those at the meetings at Washington-on-the-Brazos were a mix of developers, entrepreneurs and politicians. Sam Houston, a close friend of President Jackson, and chosen commander-in-chief of the revolutionary army, had been governor of Tennessee and a U. S. Congressman. George Childress, who had recently visited President Jackson, presented the resolution calling for independence.

Now some might think that Jackson's hand was behind the movement for independence- and the war with Mexico already in his plans.
In 1836, Texas had a population of about 38000, of whom 5000 were slaves. It is true that actions of the Mexican government threatened slavery in the region, and kept some planters from the old South from emigrating or expanding to the rich lands of east Texas, but the real expansion of slavery came following the acquisition of Texas by the United States.
Data from The Handbook of Texas.

Concerning the Alamo itself, holing up at the old mission was a mistake, as Little Hawk notes, but Santa Anna was a really great blunderer. It is doubtful, however, that Mexico could have held on to the Southwest since Jackson and other leaders in the U. S. government were determined to push to the Pacific.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 08:10 PM

...Santa Anna was a really great blunderer...

As his position at the Battle of San Jacinto laster showed -- not to mention his tactics during the Mexican War. A great general he was not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:01 PM

bobad, that incident with the potatoes was portrayed in the movie. Crockett told the story and how he was haunted by it.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: NH Dave
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:10 PM

I've found Michener's book, Texas, to be an honest statement of the facts about the Alamo.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't rank the stand a the Alamo as the most useless battle, as Mike did. With respect to his opinion, that "honor" should go to The Battle of New Orleans, a battle which becasue of the slow lines of communication, was fought soe time after the "official" end of The War of 1812.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:37 PM

Better luck next time, President Fox...

I mean, lets get friggin' real here...

Polks War was just a big ol land grab... Nothin more, nuthin' less... One of the saddest chapters in US history...

(Ahhhhh, Bobert, now about the folks who lived in the US before Jamestown and Plymouth Rock... They got a good US screwin, too, din't they???)

Nevermind... Too many "saddest chapters" to pick just one... Kinda like potato chips...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:52 PM

Michener's book also had a tale in it about "The Yellow Rose of Texas". It's been years since I read it, but I think she 'entertained' the Mexican general and thus held up the attack for about six hours. I stand to be corrected as to details--not the graphic details, because I don't think they spent the day in his tent playing canasta.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 10:51 PM

"The Yellow Rose" was discussed recently in a Mudcat thread. Any relationship with Santa Anna apparently is myth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 10:52 PM

Oh. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 11:32 PM

I dunno. I view a lot of battles are having been useless. Ypres, Kenesaw Mountain, the Little Big Horn, Stillman's Run, Manila Bay, Khe Sanh...the list is pretty long.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 11:36 PM

My grandfather was at Ypres. Far as he was concerned, it WAS useless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 12:10 AM

That whole war (WWI) was useless. The trouble was, they just didn't know what else to do in Europe at that point, the Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires were nearing the point of internal failure, and they all thought it would be over by Christmas anyway. Surprise......

Santa Anna was a tremendously bad general. Probably one of the worst in history. The Texans could hardly have asked for a less competent Mexican commander.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 03:37 AM

When are you going to hand the illegally- occupied territories back?


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:24 AM

From the reading I've done on this, it seems pretty clear, as Little Hawk indicates, that the Alamo slaughter was needless.

General Houston, in charge of the regulars, had in fact sent Jim Bowie to carry the word to destroy the Alamo and retreat to a more defensible position--as originally a mission, it was not a good place to be besieged. But what appears to have happened in that when Bowie got there he was so impressed with what had been done to improve the position, and possibly convinced it was essential as a forward post, that he decided to stay and improve it further. (If it was only 5 feet off the ground. this is puzzling). Houston had sent a message to Governor Smith (governor of what I don't know, since Texas was neither a country not a state--he seems to have been the head of a governing committee a la the Continental Congresses). Houston told Smith the Alamo should be abandoned if Smith saw fit. Gov. Smith did not see fit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:29 AM

"nor a state"


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:30 AM

One of the better put-ons around is "The Alamo used to be outside of town, only because there are so many tourists the City and Chamber of Commerce moved it to make it more convenient."


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: mkebenn
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:56 AM

I should have used the word needless in place of useless. LH is right on about what Santa Anna should have done. He also passed up a larger and more stratigic force at Goliad to get to San Antonio. Why? Vengence.His ego demanded taking back the town surrended by his brother-in-law general Cos, putting a blemish on his family's honor. As far as Land Grabbing, the Spanish had allready grabed it from the rightfull owners, we just re grabed it. Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 08:34 AM

Mommy, Mommy, but Johnny did it first....


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 08:52 AM

"the Spanish had allready grabed it from the rightfull owners, we just re grabed it."

That rather takes the ground from under objections to Saddam invading Kuwait, I think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 10:32 AM

Ha! True. Let's see...um...how far back do we want to go to decide who had first claim to the disputed lands? People's memory is always selective about this sort of thing, and it goes back just about as far as suits their prejudice or their agenda.

The people with the longest selective memory regarding land ownership at this point, I think, would have to be the Israelis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 10:35 AM

The Earth--if I am following the logic here--then belongs to the descendents of Adam and Eve (for Christian religious folks) or the ancestors of Lucy (if you follow Evolution as the cause of us all bein' here). Therefore, if y'ain't related to either of these lines of folks, kindly leave the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 10:48 AM

That's if you believe literally in Adam and Eve! A lot of people don't.

As for Lucy...that's just another theory.

I think her name was Brittney, and that explains why things are in such a bloody mess now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 10:51 AM

Point is, I get real tired of hearing about who 'owns' what. This planet should not have artificial borders. I realize that's a much broader issue, but listening to folks opine that this group took it from that group--fact is, the fuckin' multinationals have damned near all of it now, and the history doesn't really matter all that much other than in an altruistic sense, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 10:56 AM

You're quite right, there should be no borders. There should also be economic equality of opportunity everywhere...the same bill of rights everywhere...the same freedoms everywhere...the same minimum wage laws everywhere...

We're moving very slowly in that direction. Very slowly. There's been some retrograde movement just lately, though.


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