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BS: Remember the Alamo

DigiTrad:
REMEMBER THE ALAMO
THE BALLAD OF THE ALAMO


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Cluin 08 Mar 06 - 12:11 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 07 Mar 06 - 11:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 06 - 06:26 PM
Greg F. 07 Mar 06 - 06:10 PM
Peace 07 Mar 06 - 06:08 PM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 06:00 PM
Greg F. 07 Mar 06 - 05:42 PM
Wesley S 07 Mar 06 - 05:08 PM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 04:59 PM
bobad 07 Mar 06 - 04:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 06 - 04:56 PM
Peace 07 Mar 06 - 04:46 PM
Peace 07 Mar 06 - 04:40 PM
GUEST 07 Mar 06 - 04:39 PM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 04:38 PM
Rapparee 07 Mar 06 - 04:07 PM
Wesley S 07 Mar 06 - 01:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 06 - 12:59 PM
bobad 07 Mar 06 - 12:44 PM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Richard Widmark 07 Mar 06 - 12:16 PM
bobad 07 Mar 06 - 12:01 PM
Peace 07 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM
Peace 07 Mar 06 - 11:48 AM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 11:47 AM
Peace 07 Mar 06 - 11:45 AM
bobad 07 Mar 06 - 11:43 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 06 - 11:33 AM
Peace 07 Mar 06 - 11:32 AM
Paul Burke 07 Mar 06 - 11:27 AM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 10:56 AM
Peace 07 Mar 06 - 10:51 AM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 10:48 AM
Peace 07 Mar 06 - 10:35 AM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 10:32 AM
Paul Burke 07 Mar 06 - 08:52 AM
Greg F. 07 Mar 06 - 08:34 AM
mkebenn 07 Mar 06 - 07:56 AM
Rapparee 07 Mar 06 - 07:30 AM
Ron Davies 07 Mar 06 - 07:29 AM
Ron Davies 07 Mar 06 - 07:24 AM
Paul Burke 07 Mar 06 - 03:37 AM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 06 - 12:10 AM
Peace 06 Mar 06 - 11:36 PM
Rapparee 06 Mar 06 - 11:32 PM
Peace 06 Mar 06 - 10:52 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Mar 06 - 10:51 PM
Peace 06 Mar 06 - 09:52 PM
Bobert 06 Mar 06 - 09:37 PM
NH Dave 06 Mar 06 - 09:10 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:11 AM

I liked the last Alamo movie. Though the Crockett character (and his gang) was the only one I had any sympathy for. The rest of them were bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 11:59 PM

i got the uk dvd of the new version Alamo for a weekend,
only real extra info was a short 'making of' documentary..

the us region 1 DVD is advertised
including this;

"Audio commentary by historical advisor Steven L. Hardin and military advisor Allan Huffines. "

might have to look for a cheap one on ebay..


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 06:26 PM

Whereas while Texas was part of Mexico the man wouldn't have been a slave in the first place, since Mexico had abolished slavery a generation before the USA did, and without needing a Civil War to do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 06:10 PM

Yeah, but that's just the kinda guy John Wayne was. Spent all of WWII in Hollywood, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 06:08 PM

I first saw that movie in NYC when it first came out--OK, maybe not FIRST came out--but it was showing on 42nd Street. Was in the balcony and there were a few folks there who were passing something in a brown paper bag--it had a liquid sound.

Eventually, the scene came where one of the White guys in the movie lay dying (can't recall who) and he turned to his slaves and handed one a piece of paper. The slave looked at him and said, "Wass that, Massa?" The 'massa replied, "Why, that's your freedom."

Get the picture here. They are surrounded by at least 20,000 Mexican soldiers. The slave says, "But what can I do, Massa" Massa replied, "You can do anything you want now, you're free." The fellow sitting a few seats down--the one holding the bottle in the brown paper bag--stood up, tossed the bottle at the screen and shouted, "F#ck him in the a$$." The whole theatre cracked up.

Sorry to include trivia on the thread. Back to regular programming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 06:00 PM

Yes, but there is better and worse entertainment, Greg. I object to "worse", which is what we mostly get.

You want a seriously BAD Alamo movie? Check out the one with John Wayne. It's interminable, deadly boring, and laughably bad all at the same time. John Wayne succeeds in doing to Davy Crocket what Jerry Lewis did to good taste in humour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:42 PM

"History in the Movies" is a contradiction in terms, folks.

This is friggin ENTERTAINMENT, fer chrissakes.

You want real history, read reputable historians- don't look to Hollywood.

No wonder half the damn U.S. still thinks Iraq had something to do with the attcak on the Twin Towers....


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:08 PM

A good sharp Bowie knife will split a hair very nicely.

A Jim Bowie knife - not a David Bowie knife.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:59 PM

Good article. I loved that movie. It is the only Alamo movie I've ever seen that has the feel of historical authenticity, and it shows both sides pretty accurately, warts and all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: bobad
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:57 PM

That is good Peace, I enjoyed it. Have been to the Alamo a couple of times and enjoy reading about the history, I'll try and get to see the movie, it sounds good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:56 PM

Is there any topic whatsoever that you people won't discuss to death?

Of course not. Why should there be?


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:46 PM

Neat review/article here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:40 PM

I'm gettin' there. Losing lots of hair. Sorry you don't like the stuff you read. Why not just go away?


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:39 PM

Is there any topic whatsoever that you people won't discuss to death? You sure all do like to hear yourselves talk. I've never seen so many hairs split as there are here. So many that you all gotta be bald.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:38 PM

I figure the popular press of the time had quite a bit to do with building the Jim Bowie legend, as they did with Crockett and many others. A public needs its heroes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:07 PM

His brother designed a knife. Jim used it. As far as anyone can tell, that is. It's all kinda up in the air. Even the actual design of the knife is debatable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 01:15 PM

No


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 12:59 PM

Any relation to David?


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: bobad
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 12:44 PM

He had a good knife.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 12:38 PM

Hard to say. You hear a lot of different stuff about him. He seems to have been a brawler in his youth with a talent for killing people. On the other hand, he was said to be quite gracious and gallant toward the ladies in his latter years, and seems to have been devoted to his family and on good terms with many of the Mexicans he knew in Texas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: GUEST,Richard Widmark
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 12:16 PM

.. so anyway.. the Alamo ?


did Jim Bowie have any redeeming qualities ?


his character was a bit under-used and sketchy
in the latest movie version


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: bobad
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 12:01 PM

"Although the size of the gap in life expectancy between the Registered Indian and Canadian population was reduced during the period, sizable differences between the two populations remained in 1990 (about 6 years for females and 8 years for males)."

"Registered Indian infant mortality rate remains about 60% higher than that of the general Canadian population."

These are disgusting statistics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM

HOWEVER, it's no better in the general population, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 11:48 AM

Chart here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 11:47 AM

When I said "the same", I did NOT mean to make everything the same as in the USA! ;-) I meant that a world based on relative equality works better than a world based on huge disparities in standard of living and human rights...divided into armed camps against one another. That was the message in the show "Star Trek", which was one of the reasons I really liked that show.

Nationalism such as we have now is a primitive stage. It's less primitive than tribalism or feudalism were, but it's still primitive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 11:45 AM

The infant mortality rate in Canada's indigenous population is a national disgrace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: bobad
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 11:43 AM

Not to mention Canada McG of H.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 11:33 AM

Well that depends what "same" actually means. Not much fun having the same freedoms for everyone that people currently have in large parts of the planet.

And it appears that achieving the same economic security, health provision and infant mortality that poor people in the USA enjoy would mean a massive step backwards for people in most of Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 11:32 AM

Ah, yes, THE Charlene . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 11:27 AM

The ANCESTORS of Lucy?

No evidence that we're actually descended from her, BTW. Just from hominids like her, perhaps her second cousin Charlene.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 10:56 AM

You're quite right, there should be no borders. There should also be economic equality of opportunity everywhere...the same bill of rights everywhere...the same freedoms everywhere...the same minimum wage laws everywhere...

We're moving very slowly in that direction. Very slowly. There's been some retrograde movement just lately, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 10:51 AM

Point is, I get real tired of hearing about who 'owns' what. This planet should not have artificial borders. I realize that's a much broader issue, but listening to folks opine that this group took it from that group--fact is, the fuckin' multinationals have damned near all of it now, and the history doesn't really matter all that much other than in an altruistic sense, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 10:48 AM

That's if you believe literally in Adam and Eve! A lot of people don't.

As for Lucy...that's just another theory.

I think her name was Brittney, and that explains why things are in such a bloody mess now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 10:35 AM

The Earth--if I am following the logic here--then belongs to the descendents of Adam and Eve (for Christian religious folks) or the ancestors of Lucy (if you follow Evolution as the cause of us all bein' here). Therefore, if y'ain't related to either of these lines of folks, kindly leave the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 10:32 AM

Ha! True. Let's see...um...how far back do we want to go to decide who had first claim to the disputed lands? People's memory is always selective about this sort of thing, and it goes back just about as far as suits their prejudice or their agenda.

The people with the longest selective memory regarding land ownership at this point, I think, would have to be the Israelis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 08:52 AM

"the Spanish had allready grabed it from the rightfull owners, we just re grabed it."

That rather takes the ground from under objections to Saddam invading Kuwait, I think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 08:34 AM

Mommy, Mommy, but Johnny did it first....


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: mkebenn
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:56 AM

I should have used the word needless in place of useless. LH is right on about what Santa Anna should have done. He also passed up a larger and more stratigic force at Goliad to get to San Antonio. Why? Vengence.His ego demanded taking back the town surrended by his brother-in-law general Cos, putting a blemish on his family's honor. As far as Land Grabbing, the Spanish had allready grabed it from the rightfull owners, we just re grabed it. Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:30 AM

One of the better put-ons around is "The Alamo used to be outside of town, only because there are so many tourists the City and Chamber of Commerce moved it to make it more convenient."


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:29 AM

"nor a state"


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:24 AM

From the reading I've done on this, it seems pretty clear, as Little Hawk indicates, that the Alamo slaughter was needless.

General Houston, in charge of the regulars, had in fact sent Jim Bowie to carry the word to destroy the Alamo and retreat to a more defensible position--as originally a mission, it was not a good place to be besieged. But what appears to have happened in that when Bowie got there he was so impressed with what had been done to improve the position, and possibly convinced it was essential as a forward post, that he decided to stay and improve it further. (If it was only 5 feet off the ground. this is puzzling). Houston had sent a message to Governor Smith (governor of what I don't know, since Texas was neither a country not a state--he seems to have been the head of a governing committee a la the Continental Congresses). Houston told Smith the Alamo should be abandoned if Smith saw fit. Gov. Smith did not see fit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 03:37 AM

When are you going to hand the illegally- occupied territories back?


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 12:10 AM

That whole war (WWI) was useless. The trouble was, they just didn't know what else to do in Europe at that point, the Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires were nearing the point of internal failure, and they all thought it would be over by Christmas anyway. Surprise......

Santa Anna was a tremendously bad general. Probably one of the worst in history. The Texans could hardly have asked for a less competent Mexican commander.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 11:36 PM

My grandfather was at Ypres. Far as he was concerned, it WAS useless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 11:32 PM

I dunno. I view a lot of battles are having been useless. Ypres, Kenesaw Mountain, the Little Big Horn, Stillman's Run, Manila Bay, Khe Sanh...the list is pretty long.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 10:52 PM

Oh. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 10:51 PM

"The Yellow Rose" was discussed recently in a Mudcat thread. Any relationship with Santa Anna apparently is myth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:52 PM

Michener's book also had a tale in it about "The Yellow Rose of Texas". It's been years since I read it, but I think she 'entertained' the Mexican general and thus held up the attack for about six hours. I stand to be corrected as to details--not the graphic details, because I don't think they spent the day in his tent playing canasta.


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:37 PM

Better luck next time, President Fox...

I mean, lets get friggin' real here...

Polks War was just a big ol land grab... Nothin more, nuthin' less... One of the saddest chapters in US history...

(Ahhhhh, Bobert, now about the folks who lived in the US before Jamestown and Plymouth Rock... They got a good US screwin, too, din't they???)

Nevermind... Too many "saddest chapters" to pick just one... Kinda like potato chips...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Remember the Alamo
From: NH Dave
Date: 06 Mar 06 - 09:10 PM

I've found Michener's book, Texas, to be an honest statement of the facts about the Alamo.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't rank the stand a the Alamo as the most useless battle, as Mike did. With respect to his opinion, that "honor" should go to The Battle of New Orleans, a battle which becasue of the slow lines of communication, was fought soe time after the "official" end of The War of 1812.

Dave


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