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BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq

GUEST 10 Mar 06 - 09:29 PM
GUEST 10 Mar 06 - 10:35 PM
Azizi 10 Mar 06 - 10:41 PM
Bobert 10 Mar 06 - 11:11 PM
Roger the Skiffler 11 Mar 06 - 04:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Mar 06 - 04:33 AM
John MacKenzie 11 Mar 06 - 05:27 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Mar 06 - 07:05 AM
SINSULL 11 Mar 06 - 10:19 AM
Stilly River Sage 11 Mar 06 - 11:07 AM
katlaughing 11 Mar 06 - 11:33 AM
SunnySister 11 Mar 06 - 08:26 PM
Rapparee 11 Mar 06 - 11:08 PM
Peter T. 12 Mar 06 - 01:21 PM
GUEST 12 Mar 06 - 05:54 PM
Peter T. 12 Mar 06 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,Not the other GUEST 12 Mar 06 - 08:03 PM
GUEST,dianavan 12 Mar 06 - 08:13 PM
Ferrara 12 Mar 06 - 08:28 PM
katlaughing 12 Mar 06 - 09:57 PM
GUEST,Obie 13 Mar 06 - 12:03 AM
A Wandering Minstrel 13 Mar 06 - 08:26 AM
GUEST 13 Mar 06 - 09:25 AM
Stilly River Sage 13 Mar 06 - 09:58 AM
Ferrara 13 Mar 06 - 10:25 AM
Scoville 13 Mar 06 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,dianavan 13 Mar 06 - 12:38 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Mar 06 - 01:23 PM
open mike 13 Mar 06 - 01:38 PM
gnu 13 Mar 06 - 01:45 PM
Janie 13 Mar 06 - 01:52 PM
GUEST 13 Mar 06 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,GUEST, Not the Other Guest 13 Mar 06 - 06:12 PM
kendall 14 Mar 06 - 01:23 PM
katlaughing 14 Mar 06 - 02:54 PM
cool hand Tom 14 Mar 06 - 04:00 PM

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Subject: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 09:29 PM

hostage killed in Iraq


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 10:35 PM

Tom was a gentle man. Pray for his family. lor


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 10:41 PM

I'm so very sorry to hear this news.

He lived a meaningful life and his memory will live on.

I do pray for his family. I also pray for all of us who are still here working in our own ways for a better world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 11:11 PM

Sniff...

Yeah, my heart and prayers go out to his family and friends...

...but I hold George Bush personally responsible...

This is a terrible war.... Worse than Nam... Worse thasn Korea...

This war was created for no other purpose than politics and getting Bush re-elected so that Boss Hog could continue the fleecing of America... It is disgusting. It is immoral. And it is a crime against humanity...

Tom Fox knew exactly what I mean...

Screw the George Bush's of the world... The only positive aspect of this is these creeps will all rot in Hell... And better yet, they will know it before they die... Creeps...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:09 AM

Stillpraying for Norman Pember & the two Canadians. Alas, the sort of people who kill peace workers and bomb rival mosques are not amenable to reason.

RtS


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 04:33 AM

Absolutely RtS,

I'm afraid that Norman Kember and the two Canadians will also be killed.

Proof, if any were needed, that you can't negotiate with fanatics.

Bobert is also correct. Responsibility for these deaths can be laid squarely at the door of Messrs. Bush and Blair, may they both pay heavily for their crimes.

Shame indeed that others have to die for their greed and corruption.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 05:27 AM

This is yet another infamous chapter in another pointless war poor man, his family must have known this was the likely outcome, but will still be devastated now that their last hope has gone.
As Don says you cannot negotiate with these fanatics, I feel if you did give in to their demands and release all the prisoners, yes you would get the hostages back, but they'd still be dead. These people despise weakness of friend or foe, and appear to have no concept of mercy.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 07:05 AM

These people despise weakness of friend or foe, and appear to have no concept of mercy.

But they aren't the only people who think like that. And the people who think like that, wherever they are and on whichever side they are, do things that are designed to help each other, because mutual fear and hate are what gives them strength and influence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 10:19 AM

"These people despise weakness of friend or foe, and appear to have no concept of mercy."

Yes, Giok. Hard to understand when they have the merciful US Army to teach them the right way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 11:07 AM

It was foolish to go over there. For any and all Americans, it was foolish. Downright stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 11:33 AM

Lorcan, sorry for this sad news. It is ever thus in the affairs of men for all of the reasons listed above. Though, that does not mean we should just let it continue. Raising our voices, as I know you do everyday, is one way we can assuage the pain of loss and hope to influence the day and the future. May his family find peace and comfort in knowing there are many who follow the wishes of Tom and others who work for peace and humanity.

(BTW, I've missed you!)

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: SunnySister
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 08:26 PM

I have been too upset about hearing the horrible news about Mr. Fox to write earlier. I also continue to worry tremendously about the safety of the other men. My thoughts also go to their family and friends during this hardest of times.

I don't think what they did was foolish at all. To speak out for peace. To care about the world and all those who live in it, even those who could and may do you harm. To put your life on the line in the name of love, humanity and peace. What better things to place your life on the line for?

What is additionally horrific to me is that so many people in this world have lost the ability to care and to empathize. Power and being right mean more than kindness and decency.

I celebrate Mr. Fox's heart and his courage. I mourn and worry about those that could harm such a man.

-- SunnySister


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Mar 06 - 11:08 PM

The word is now that he was tortured before he was shot.

I can say no more than others have said. Sit quietly and pray for his killers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 01:21 PM

People might be interested in his blog: http://waitinginthelight.blogspot.com.

While I disagree with it, I think his essay on the Force of War vs. the Force of Peace is very deep.

In the horror of it, he may have lost sight of the one true fact: he died for what he believed in, and it was an honourable belief. He brings more honour to the name of America than some others one could name.
yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 05:54 PM

Sit quietly and pray for his killers.

Let's pray that we get the job done in Iraq because the torture and killing of Tom Fox is proof that our enemies do not have any respect for peace.

Let's also be thankful that President Bush, not the Mudcat mentality, is in charge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 08:00 PM

And how did they become our enemies, O Guest?

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: GUEST,Not the other GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 08:03 PM

Question is what did Tom Fox do to make them HIS enemies? From his blog looks like he was suckin' up to 'em bigtime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 08:13 PM

I don't think it was any more foolish for him to go there than it is foolish for any soldier to go there. Only difference is that he was a soldier for Peace. I can only applaud the commitment. He was a better human being than most of us.

There is a fine line between bravery and foolishness and I'm not going to judge his very personal decision to go to Iraq. It was his decision. He paid with his life. I'm sure he has left behind a family who loved him very much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Ferrara
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 08:28 PM

Tom was committed to the principle of forgiveness. From what I know of him, he didn't forgive his enemies; he didn't put anyone in the position of "enemies." He forgave people who behaved in rotten ways for rotten reasons. He believed it's an important part of working for peace with your whole being.

I just needed to mention this because of course tempers are hot because of his death but ... it does him no honor. The best thing one can do in his honor, and in his memory, and for his family, is to read his blogs, learn a little about his thinking and his principles, and try to comprehend the vision of complete, active nonviolence of thought and action that Tom was trying to live by.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 09:57 PM

Peter and Ferrara, thansk for the link to his blog.

Ferrara, thanks for putting it so well.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 12:03 AM

I have no love for Bush but I don't see how he's totally to blame for this. There was enough publicity that the arseholes holding these hostages should have known why they were in Iraq. May they sleep in death under a heap of camel dung!
I hope that his death will come to some good in the end in speeding a peaceful end to this mess!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 08:26 AM

A terrible price to pay for standing up for peace and truth. very saddened by this news. Larry , my thoughts are with you


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 09:25 AM

And how did they become our enemies, O Guest?

O Peter T, aren't you from Canada? Canada isn't with us in Iraq. I guess that means the Islamic terrorists who tortured and murdered Tom Fox are not your enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 09:58 AM

But his point is very well taken, oh unnamed Guest. I've bit my cheek hard as this thread progressed, not wanting to add more than my first remark, but the level of naivete regarding this death is staggering, all things considered. Islam isn't the only generator of martyrs in this war. And Dianavan, soldiers don't have a choice in this matter, but this religious man did.

Go on grieving, but understand that not everyone is convinced that his mission was a wise one, that not being part of the solution, he was part of the problem, another offensive westerner feeding the roiling anger over the invasion of Iraq.

Not wanting to start a flame war, but just stating a few home-truths.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Ferrara
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:25 AM

I suspect I'm going to have to stop reading this thread, because it isn't about Tom but about rage and frustration and politics. Just the antithesis of what Tom was about. But ... I'll try once more.

Tom's being in Iraq, and his activism, were not about politics. They were about standing up for the highest and best in the human spirit. It was about standing up for the powerless.

His captors also never seemed to me to be about politics. They were/are angry, violent men who felt rage at not having control of their country and their lives. They wanted to take out that rage on somebody.

Tom had a deep understanding of the rage and frustration of the powerless. IMO, if (and when, for I'm sure he did) Tom prayed for his captors, it wasn't so they would become nonpolitical or cease being a threat. It was so they could stop being so terribly at war within themselves.

Similarly, it would be totally against his principles to feel rage and hatred against Bush & co., even though he couldn't stand many of the things they do.

We're living through a ghastly, destructive time and as individuals most of us don't seem to be able to do a whole lot about it. We do have a choice though, as to whether we stay at war within ourselves. As I see it we need to keep the anger, keep our determination, but overcome the inner rage and certainly work to overcome feelings of hatred.

I apologize for the preachy tone. Don't know how else to say it. Trying to spread Tom's ideals of inner peacefulness and outer activism is the one thing I can do right now for Tom's family, whom I know well, and one of his dear friends who is a close friend of ours as well. And it feels like the one thing I can do for Tom.

I believe in this approach to life. I have been quietly "preaching" these ideas to friends for ... well, since the U.S. invaded Iraq in spite of protests around the world. I figured the world might not be at peace, but I can be at peace and try to create a peaceful -- not passive or accepting -- space around me as much as possible.

Think about it. That's the best memorial Tom could have IMO -- for people to think about his life and what it represents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Scoville
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:55 AM

His blog.



My dad was going to discuss this in First Day School yesterday but, unfortunately, spring break started and our three high-school age kids were out of town. There were a number of messages about it in meeting, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 12:38 PM

Guest - I don't believe that Tom Fox considered those who killed him to be enemies. I think you should read his blogs so that you can begin to understand his point of view. Whether or not Canada considers his killers to be enemies is beside the point.

SRS - Considering that this is an obit, it seems to be incredibly bad taste for you to keep harping about whether or not Tom was foolish. How kind of you to state what you consider to be a few "home truths". I would also like to mention that since there is no longer a draft, the soldiers who are in Iraq certainly made that choice by signing up in the first place.

Rest in peace, Tom. Your bravery and your commitment to peace has made many of us reflect on our own level of involvement in trying to end the invasion of Iraq and the misery in Fallujah.

I, too, do not intend to start a flame war. I think I have said enough and will leave this thread to others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:23 PM

Keep it up and you'll have a squabble. You're good at those.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: open mike
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:38 PM

What ever became of the woman journalist who was being held hostage?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: gnu
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:45 PM

RIP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: Janie
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:52 PM

Rita-thank you.

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 06:02 PM

Dianavan, most sane people would consider anyone would happily torture and murder them to be an enemy.

Since Tom Fox was a peace activist, I would say that the Islamic fundamentalists who tortured and murdered him are enemies of peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: GUEST,GUEST, Not the Other Guest
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 06:12 PM

I think the idea was clear enough, but Dianavan didn't catch my meaning, which may not entirely be her fault, considering what she has to work with.

What did Tom Fox do to make him THEIR enemies, worthy of the time they took to abduct, house, film, abuse, torture, and shoot to death?

Clear enough for ya?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: kendall
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 01:23 PM

During OUR civil war, there was a famous conversation between a union soldier and a rebel. The Union soldier asked a rebel prisoner, "Why do you continue to fight us"? The rebel answered, "Because you all are down here."

Seems to me that the best way to avoid getting killed in Iraq is to stay the hell out of Iraq. It's clear to anyone with more than a teaspoon full of brains that they don't want us there, and that Iraq did not attack us in the first place. Insurgency my ass! this is a civil war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 02:54 PM

Thank you, Rita, beautifully expressed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Tom Fox Killed In Iraq
From: cool hand Tom
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 04:00 PM

I was in gulf war one,ireland and other places,to be in a dangerous country is to be at risk,we know that.Fanatics they may be,but someones hero they are.If we mess with other cultures deaths are enevitable and a fact of life.

Regards Tom


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