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BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day

GUEST,saulgoldie 12 Mar 06 - 10:20 AM
John MacKenzie 12 Mar 06 - 10:24 AM
GUEST 12 Mar 06 - 10:31 AM
Windsinger 12 Mar 06 - 10:37 AM
Alba 12 Mar 06 - 11:25 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Mar 06 - 03:32 PM
Windsinger 12 Mar 06 - 03:59 PM
JulieF 12 Mar 06 - 04:10 PM
Den 12 Mar 06 - 04:48 PM
Alba 12 Mar 06 - 05:24 PM
michaelr 12 Mar 06 - 06:08 PM
Peace 12 Mar 06 - 06:17 PM
katlaughing 13 Mar 06 - 12:17 AM
GUEST,Paul Burke lost his wotsit 13 Mar 06 - 03:35 AM
Windsinger 13 Mar 06 - 10:31 AM
manitas_at_work 13 Mar 06 - 10:41 AM
GUEST 13 Mar 06 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Coyote Breath (upon the 'green') 13 Mar 06 - 02:24 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Mar 06 - 03:19 PM
GUEST 13 Mar 06 - 04:15 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 13 Mar 06 - 04:15 PM
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GUEST 13 Mar 06 - 08:05 PM
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Subject: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 10:20 AM

I just heard it on NPR (so it MUST be true!) that if you want to honor St. Patrick's Day, pass on the green beer and go for the dark stout, which is certifiably Irish. Guiness is good. No doubt folks will mention others. Me, I can't get anything else in our limited selection gov't run liquor stores and even more limited "beer and wine" shoppes. Oh well. Perhaps I'll have to go to the pub. OTOH, there IS also Irish Mist and Irish creme, both available. And, of course, whiskey.

OTOH, OTOH, just singing Irish songs and not imbibing is also cool. I didn't mean to suggest that the only way to honor the day was to drink alcohol. Other'n Danny Boy, any popularly-known songs to suggest?

Didn't St. Patrick rid Ireland of the snakes, according to legend?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 10:24 AM

Drink enough of the dark stuff and you'll start seeing the snakes again Saul.
I'm only half Irish so I only get half pissed!
G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 10:31 AM

Or you could do what secular Irish folk do, and ignore the day altogether.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 10:37 AM

I already ranted at length about this elsewhere, so I have nothing more to add. :)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Alba
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 11:25 AM

Hi Saul,
I don't pay much heed to St Pat's day myself as it occures just before one of the eight Sabbats I celebrate called Ostara.
I did the St Patrick's Day Gigs the first year I arrived in America and that was enough for me as I was as green about the whole process here as the Beer they were serving in all the venues we played..**BG**. Talk about just off the Boat!:)
Guinness.... well I wait till I am on firm Irish turf before even thinking of partacking in the supping of Porter.

So whatever you do on March 17th Saul,
I wish you a safe and Happy Day.
and
for what it may be worth:)

Beannachtaí na Féile Pádraig ort!
(St. Patrick's Day Blessing On You)

Love and Light as always
Jude


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 03:32 PM

green beer?

how does that work out?
you mean bright green like washing up liquid? or black with a greeny tinge.
I'd like to see that, can you get it in England - nobody ever offered it me in Ireland even, or even a half of it in Scotland.

my favourite wine gums are the green ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 03:59 PM

Wee,

You're not missing much. It's a gimmick that silly wankers American bartenders began doing in the 50's as a St. Patrick's Day promotional.

In fact, you can make a batch yourself, if you're feeling morbidly curious enough:

Basically you take pilsner, pale ale or any light-colored beer, and dump in bright green food coloring. When it looks as dangerously irradiated as the Irish Sea washing up against the Sellafield nuclear facility, :P that means you did it right.

It's an abhomination. Truly. And about as Irish as chicken vindaloo (the pale beer is a dead tip-off!!!!)

The city of Chicago dyes their principal river green on the 17th, as do several other cities. This perennially baffles the hell out of the Irish.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: JulieF
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 04:10 PM

There was definitely green beer in Sheffield last year, didn't see it myself but it was there.

Personally, it's not the colour of the guinness but the quality and the price. So far the best price heard of is at Hallam student union bar at £1.50 where my daughter will be hanging out for the afternoon. She is celebrating going out and drinking with her mates rather than being forced into a dress and made to dance all the time ( and sometimes we flung her whistle or fiddle at her and made her play).

As a Scot adopted by the irish community, I will start at the Irish Centre and end up at a gig in Chesterfield.   It's always an interesting day - usually not going quite how you planned.

J


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Den
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 04:48 PM

Alba, Guinness is not porter it is stout, a very different animal;-) And anyone who would attempt to put food colouring in it deserves to have their spectacles stapled to their knee caps. Being Irish on Saint Patrick's day for me means, pining real shamrock on my coat, mass in the morning and then a nice breakfast with my family. After that we put out our Tricolour out and then my wife and I get together with my brother and some friends and go out to enjoy some good Irish music and Guinness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Alba
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 05:24 PM

Stout and Porter are truly a different animal indeed Den!

I think it is more of a term we use as in "are ye going to Green's tonight for Porter and a few tunes?". **BG** ( I wish I were )
and being that Guinness doesn't talk, it doesn't seem to mind that we don't call it 'stout':)

The Day You and Your Family have planned sounds great. I hope you all celebrate heartily.

Lá Fhéile Pádraig Sona Duit
Jude


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 06:08 PM

Stout and Porter are truly a different animal indeed Den!

Not so very different. In fact, Guinness used to be known as porter. If you look at the old Guinness ads that are so ubiquitous in Irish pubs, you'll see that the little guy ("My goodness! My Guinness!) is wearing a porter's uniform.

Slainte,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 06:17 PM

I am still gonna be Scottish (50%), English (37.5%) and Irish (12.5%) on St Patrick's Day--or any other day for that matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 12:17 AM

My very fun and old English teacher served green beer to a few of us at her home on St. Patrick's one year. She was as Irish as they come, first generation here in America. The only problem I had with it was my dad always made us wear orange on that day to prove we weren't Papists and I felt I was betraying him in some way by drinking it green!

Some people need to lighten up, imo.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Paul Burke lost his wotsit
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 03:35 AM

Historical note:

both porter and stout developed in London in the late 18th century. The characteristic creamy head was originally achieved by having two (or even three) barrels of naturally conditioned stout (fermenting in the barrel) available: a mature barrel (or two) low in CO2, that provided the body, and a fresh, rapidly fermenting barrel to give the head.

Paddy's day in England used to drive my mother mad, because we all had to wear sprigs of shamrock, and she didn't want to be taken for Irish- her mother was from old Lancashire Recusant stock!


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:31 AM

anyone who would attempt to put food colouring in it [Guinness]deserves to have their spectacles stapled to their knee caps.

How would one tell if there's food coloring in black beer? :P

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:41 AM

By the colour of the foam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:49 AM

Nice to see the stereotyping of Irish people as drunks alive and well.

It makes Irish people look almost as good as that enlightened group of Hibernian gay bashers.

All those in favor of banning St Patrick's Day (celebration of the excesses of fascist American Irish Catholicism), and getting this piss poor example of "being Irish" off the calendar...


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Coyote Breath (upon the 'green')
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 02:24 PM

I will be wearing my football jersey (with the crest with three shamrocks) and a "Cat in the hat" type hat with shamrocks galore. I will be doing this because the lovely Kelly Parker has asked me to entertain the kiddies of her pre-school class. That will be in the morning.

Later that evening I will be wearing my Tiocfaidh ar La tee shirt with tricolor and clenched fist rampant. I will repair to a local cultural establishment to join in rolicking musical mayhem.

At that time I will sing the song my "Da" and I came up with one St. Pat's day long ago:

Does Your Mother Know You're Irish?

Does your mother know you're Irish?
Does she know your Da's a Mick
Did he hail from county Kerry
Or mayhaps from Limerick?

(we never finished the song but I'm sure you get the idea. contributions to fill it out are welcome. you've got 4 days)

CB


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 03:19 PM

I wonder if that's how they make that Bombay Gin blue?

if you're worried about racial stereotyping, why not start an Irish icons thread.

has anyone been on the Swansea Cork crossing ferry. theres an ad in the Irish Post this week and it looks very cheap. Is there a catch - like is the sea particularly rough going that way?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 04:15 PM

Anyone who would piss on St Patrick's Cathedral should be bashed, and bashed good. That's yer gay protestor fer ye


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 04:15 PM

"Drink enough of the dark stuff and you'll start seeing the snakes again "

The "dark stuff" actually has less alcohol (Guinness Draught - 4.0)than Budweiser (5.0) and fewer calories as well!


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 04:32 PM

"...worried about racial stereotyping..."

WTF???

Who said anything about race?

It doesn't worry me, it depresses me. Why should any culture be reduced to this sort of banal, unimaginative, mean-spirited stereotyping?

Answer: it makes assholes feel good about themselves by putting others down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Dave'sWife
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:25 PM

My own personal pet peeve about St. Patrick's Day and regular americans remembering this time of year that I'm Irish:

If one more person asks me if I'm cooking Corned beef on the 17th I think I'm gonna smash 'em in the head with my cast iron frying pan. Does anyone know where this idea that Corned Beef was Irish got started? I'll be making lamb stew, thankyou, and apple dumplings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:28 PM

Not to mention, presuming you consume corned beef on a particular day of the year because you are Irish, is an affront to Irish vegetarians everywhere.

But hey--let's not burst that stereotypical "being Irish" bubble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:28 PM

"Does anyone know where this idea that Corned Beef was Irish got started? "

Yes, and there might have been a thread about this.

As an Irish-AMERICAN, you should not feel upset with this dish. It is truly an IRISH-AMERICAN dish and perfectly acceptable for St. Patrick's Day here in the states.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:48 PM

Dave's Wife,

Stateside, corned beef is what replaced boiling-bacon as the traditional cut of meat to be served in Irish cabbage dishes.

It simply happened because Irish-Americans found out they could get ahold of corned beef more cheaply.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 06:27 PM

Apple Dumplings? Would you be so kind as to message the recipe or even post it here? I love apple dumplings and I haven't had any really good ones since my grandmother died in 1967.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 07:42 PM

do Americans get Fray Bentos corned beef, or is it made from all that beef that you see in the cowboy films?

as for us being nasty to the iRish. They DO have a lot of drinking songs in their national folksong repertoire and they Do make the best whisky and beer in the world - famous all over the world. people are going to take note of these facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 08:05 PM

Yes, and of course the Irish are the only people in the world with a lot of drinking songs in their national repertoire.

Ditto, the only people in the world who produce popular alcoholic beverages.

Of course, that makes the stereotyping OK. Thanks for setting me straight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Dave'sWife
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:01 PM

Ron olesko - American-born Irish don't call themsleves Irish-American unless their families have more than 2 generations born here - at least that's the arbitary divding line I grew up with in NYC. MY father is a dual-citizen of the USA and ROI. Therefore, I am Irish. Now, in other cities, maybe anyone born here is Irish-AMERICAN. We just wouldn't use the term unless we were describing folks whose families came over before the 1920s. I think it may also have to do with how assimilated your family is or was.

Under some interesting program The ROI has going right now for certain much needed professions, I could reverse emmigrate if I wanted to and be entitled to all manner of nifty aid were I willing to go back to teaching. The shortage of qualified Irish workers is such in the current strong economy there this program was created. I have often tried to sell this to my husband but he's having none of it. Maybe I'll bring it up again on St. Patricks day!



Peace - apple dumplings:

Tell me, what do YOU consider apple dumplings? Mine are whole peeled apples, cored, filled with butter, spices and nuts and then wrapped up in pastry and baked. is that your idea of a dumpling or did you think I meant American style like fritters? ( I can do those too!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:10 PM

As an American of Irish ancestry, I view the word "Irish" as meaning a person born in Ireland, or an Irish national. Just as I would with "Japanese" or "Welsh".

The very recent tendency of Americans to hybridize their identity, by using their ancestry hyphenated with the word "American" I've always thought an odd way of distinguishing one's self as "not mainstream WASP".

That said, growing up, when someone asked me "what I was" I never had any problem figuring out what they were asking--it was either my ancestry or my religion.

Just for the record--it wasn't nearly as trendy to be of Irish ancestry and a Catholic in the US prior to the 90s Irish fads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:19 PM

Daves wife, you make very good observations and I am sure that people are entitled to call themselves whatever they like. Sometimes I refer to myself as Polish or Czech, but I am third generation. Technically, if you are born in this country or have citizenship, you are American - but I do understand your point.

The point I would like to bring up with about the simple dish of corned beef and cabbage is that it should be part of a St. Patrick's Day celebration here in the United States, and probably Canada too. As Windsinger pointed out, it replace boiling bacon here in the United States. Irish immigrants who came over to this country could either not get boiling bacon, or more often, could only afford the tougher cut of meet which was corned beef.   The fact that they could turn it into a such a tasty dish is a testament to their perseverence and a reminder of how much they brought to this country. When I eat my corned beef, I do feel that I am celebrating a proud heritage and spirit of our immigrant past. Perhaps that is why "everyone's Irish" on St. Patrick's Day. Most of us share the immigrant experience in our family history so I look at the day as a way of saying "thanks" for everything they brought to form this countries culture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:21 PM

"The very recent tendency of Americans to hybridize their identity"

You are 100% wrong there. This is nothing new. This nation has always remembered it's roots as well as support the U.S.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:29 PM

True, but the hyphenating of ancestry with nationality is new.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,**B**
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:34 PM

Níl gach uile fhánaí caillte!

I lay the blame on Riverdance, Lord of the Dance and Enya...(half joking!)

The first St Patrick's Day parade was in 1737 in Boston.
It has grown to be what it is in America.There is no changing back the Clock!
Surely tis better to celebrate being of Irish decent than to hide it!
I really think that your comments Guest are just a bit bitter.

America is a new Land in many ways. Built and founded by Immigrants.
To say your Irish American is to me saying were your roots lie that's all.

People should be left to do their pleasing when it comes to celebrating their Irish Ancestry. To belittle people because they wish to celebrate St Patrick's day no matter who they are or where they are from is mean spirited.

Fill ar do dhúchas


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 11:26 PM

Well really now, why would everyone want to be Irish anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 12:12 AM

"Tell me, what do YOU consider apple dumplings?"

THANK YOU for the recipe. That's it! Wow. Question for you Dave's Wife, if you don't mind. What kind of pasty do you use?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 12:47 AM

Read my somewhat irish American lips....I do not give a rat's ass what they think of us in Ireland. Not one whit. Let them do what they want over there. What we as irish Americans forgive the hyphenation or lack of it do is an Irish American holiday. i don't care what songs they sing in ireland, what beer they drink, whether or not they color their rivers green. it is or used to be before (a) the irish themslves and (b) everyone else ruined it my favorite day of the year. I don't have people to celebrate with and thre is really no point unles most of them are cut from the samecloth...but if I did I would be singing who threw the overalls in Mrs. Murphy's chowder and Molly Malone and especially the kerry dancers....for th last and final time it does not matter what they sing in Ireland..does not matter....d you finally get it???????? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 12:49 AM

p.s. when you make fun of us and I bet you would even make fun of my shamrock that you press a button and it little green lights flashing you insult our ancesters, which you may or may not realize had extremely difficult lives, and how anyone not of their culture could feel free to make fun of the pitiful amount of pleasure they might ahve obtained by singing irish eyes are smiling is just plain mean. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 01:42 AM

Jaysus, lad, sure and why don't ya feckin tell us how ya really feel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 07:55 AM

so YOU set us straight. What aspect of Irishness would YOU like emphasised, so all of us uncool people will empathise with your nation in an unstereotypical and acceptable manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 08:05 AM

The list is pretty long, actually. From textiles to archaeology to literature to music to history to environmental movements to religion to maritime museums...

Not all that difficult, really. And not one of them has to do with green beer and shamrocks.

MG, I don't begrudge you or other Irish Americans the day or the songs or anything like that. I am just depressed by the focus on drunkeness, and the demeaning stereotypes that go along with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 09:03 AM

Honestly, most of the wankerish behavior comes from Americans of non-Irish descent, who have only observe the holiday because it's an excuse to get shitfaced by piggybacking off of someone else's ethnic pride. (Ex: What other reason do my Polish, Italian or Korean neighbors have to feel compelled to celebrate this particular holiday?)

A similar situation arises over Cinco de Mayo -- a day which most Mexicans could give a hoot about.

Having said that, you might find that a surprising amount of Amerians of Irish descent ARE in touch with their roots, and respectably and intelligently so. (And yes, some of us were so WELL before the fads of the 90's.)

Remember, the 17th only became a raging big deal in the States because of homesick immigrants and their offspring. Being that the Irish made up an enormous segment of the immigrant population in this coutry, it is not surprising that the phenomenon snowballed to its current size.

I can understand some eyeball-rolling at thematic cheesiness from people who don't "get it"...but for those of us who DO, kindly let us hoist a pint in peace?

Beannachtaí na Féile Pádraig oraibh (in advance).

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 09:31 AM

"What other reason do my Polish, Italian or Korean neighbors have to feel compelled to celebrate this particular holiday?"

See my comments earlier. It isn't about drinking or an excuse to get shitfaced. It is a celebration of a heritage that has offered a great deal to the fabric of our culture.   The drinking is overstated by the media.

If pride can't be shared, it isn't worth having.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 09:41 AM

Cinco de Mayo? There's me thinking it was Cuatro de Galway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Alba
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 09:55 AM

LOL Paul or even Cuatro de Ennis!!:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 10:08 AM

I guess Prossies/Pagans/et alia shouldn't be allowed to send hearts and flowers on St. Valentine's day, not being Catholic and all. Making such a mockery of it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 10:21 AM

A work in progress,,,,


The sun rose bright and clear today,
A brisk March wind straight up Broadway,
Pipes and drums sound pure and clear,
Plastic darbies, cold green beer,
Marching on me merry way,
See the Bud Girls on display,
Willy Yeats has gone away,
Hoist 'yer glass it's Paddy's day.


Near McSorley's crowded bar,
I sang 'em " Johnson's Motor Car",
Green lines painted in the street,
Boiled cabbage, pickled meat,
Played 'em one by Christie Moore,
" Ah, the red-haired actress, sure"
Tommy Davis begorrah s'gone away,
Hoist 'yer glass it's Paddy's day.

Put 'em out on your green lawns,
The auld tricolor, leprechauns,
Be a pal and watch me back,
All I miss is Captain Jack,
Sang one more, " The Foggy Dew",
Two o' clock me day was through,
Brendan Behan sure he's gone away,
Hoist 'yer glass it's Paddy's day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 10:31 AM

Kat, quite the opposite. ;)

As with a few other holidays, the Catholics yoinked St. Val's from the pagan Romans (it used to be a pretty raunchy fertility festival called "Lupercal") in order to absorb and make it "safe."

It was the Victorians who really started going nuts with the hearts and the flowers.

The Cathlolic Church removed St. Val's from the calendar as an official religious holiday back in the late 60's, so I imagine it's currently up for grabs.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 10:40 AM

The Roman festival was called Lupercalia. Lupercal is the cave where Romulus and Remus were found.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 11:21 AM

Oh, jeezis, Windsinger, give it a rest, will you? It was tongue in cheek. I am well aware of the history of such.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 11:24 AM

Hey, at least I was willing to sign it. :P


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 11:24 AM

"I can understand some eyeball-rolling at thematic cheesiness from people who don't "get it"...but for those of us who DO, kindly let us hoist a pint in peace?"

By all means.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 11:32 AM

The list is pretty long, actually. From textiles to archaeology to literature to music to history to environmental movements to religion to maritime museums

well okay, but you can see how the green beer caught on, it's catchy. Like the man says to Paul Simon in One Trick Pony, ya gotta have a hook!


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 11:37 AM

"you can see how the green beer caught on, it's catchy"

Uggh.   Maybe it the establishment. I would not frequent any tavern or pub that serves beer with food dye added to it.   I can't recall the last time I entered a place that did!

What really gets me is the local bagel shop that dyes their bagels green. Usually I would toss a green bagel!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 11:39 AM

Is it OK to eat carrots?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 11:42 AM

This doesn't even touch on the effect excessive liquid food-dye can have upon one's teeth...tongue...clothing...countertop...

Temporary? Well, maybe.

Attractive? $%^# no. (Images come to mind of little kids grossing out one another with their multicolored tongues, after one popsicle too many.)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 11:45 AM

:::snicker::: Peace. :)

Maybe, but if you're in Ulster be careful of what neighborhood you're in.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 11:57 AM

considering that beer seems to have found an express route to the bladder, I can only imagine what that green dye would do!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 01:21 PM

And in the interest of fairness:

Sometimes even native-born Irish can be idiots about their own heritage. ;) So perhaps it evens out in the end.

"Skangers" are what they call "chavs" in the U.K. I haven't yet figured out if the U.S. equivalent would be Wiggers or Skinheads.

Either way...disturbing.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 02:33 PM

I feel little connection with the various days set aside to celebrate things of this nature. That includes Christmas, New Years, St Patrick's Day, Queen Victoria's Day, Canada Day, Halloween, Easter, my Birthday, etc. I don't mind that others seem to enjoy these things, but I have found that it just ain't for me. I do however wish others things like Happy St Patrick's Day or Happy Birthday or Merry Christmas, etc, because it means something to them.

As to wearing green--if I do it's usually by accident because I also seldom know when these days fall during the week. I could never be arsed to remember when Holloween is, or most other days. It's all I can do to remember Monday thru Sunday and where I am in THAT. For example, it is by happenstance that I'm aware today is Thursday.

Parenthetically, I understood that St Patrick's Day was supposed to be a happy occasion. I guess I understood wrong.

Thanks for the grin, Fionn. Happy St Patrick's Day to you and most others here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 02:57 PM

I love the day, it means a lot to me. My family and city used to celebrate it with an early mass, songs, green carnations and a parade.   Now I live where nobody else gets it.

The parades started in the 19th century as a point of ethnic pride, to prove how mainstream and respectable Irish in America could be. A secondary point was to honor St. Patrick, one of thethe world's greatest teachers and evangelists; a saint and scholar. This was during a time when the No-Nothings wanted immigration of the undesirable poor Irish to be stopped, and prejudice against Irish was real. Today the main parades are still no-alcohol celebrations of civic and ethnic pride, every business and union local and pipe band proud of its place in the community. (Others have degenerated into beer busts, I'll agree).   Since that time Irish-Americans have become the mainstream of society and few feel any need to honor their roots in such a tacky old way.

Our immigrant ancestors were economic migrants, some were abused evictees literally sent forcibly from their homes on coffin ships. They taught their kids to remember the homeland and to wear the green one day a year whether anybody liked it or not. And to be grateful they lived in a time and place where they could wear it 365 days a year without getting thrown in the jug.

If you don't like it, don't celebrate it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 03:15 PM

Happy St Patrick's Day to you then Guest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 09:47 PM

one from James Gordon:


St. Patrick's Day

Look at that guy there, doesn't he take the cake?
The one yelling "Play The Black Velvet Band!"
He must be descended from one of those snakes
Old Saint Paddy drove from Ireland

Give him a green cardboard hat
And it makes him think that
He is King for a Day.
All his wasted years
Disappear in green beer
And he feels okay.

chorus:
Well I wouldn't be surprised
If his drunken dreams were realized.
Stranger things have happened on St. Patrick's Day

Okay, let's say, just for arguments' sake
That he's more than just a jerk in a bar
Underneath that polyester, he aches
Something has pushed him too far

And what does he think?
If he has enough drinks
Maybe things will change?
Suddenly
middle-aged
overweight
white guys
Will be the rage?

(chorus)

This loser-type guy
Wishes he could be Irish
For just one night.
All that shamrock luck,
He could drink it all up
And he'd be all right

(chorus)


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: DougR
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 11:13 PM

I don't go near a Pub on St. Patrick's Day. Nothing but a very large crowd of folks that don't frequent it EXCEPT on St. Patrick's Day. Too many people, too many drunks on the road for me.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Dave'sWife sans cookie & can't recall my PW!
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 11:00 PM

Ron Olesko said:
>>>
What really gets me is the local bagel shop that dyes their bagels green. Usually I would toss a green bagel!!<<<

Bwahaha - I just railed against that in the other stereotypical St. Patrick's day thread.

In that thread I also mentioned how the observation of the holiday changed from generation to generation.

For my grandad in the 1920s it was a bitter, political day. He had uncles involved in the 1916 Easter Rebellion and his family's reason for coming here was to avoid arrest. My dad on the otherhand grew up in the 1950s when it wasn't a severe disadvantage to be Irish in NYC and so has fond memories of the Parade.   Me, I had a rought time growing up as a Catholic in an increasingly Protestant area and caught a lot of flack about my Catholocism and Irish bakground in Public School. The whole getting spit on coming back from Mass on Ash Wed was surreal.

As for whether I'm Irish or Irish-American, it's a perception thing as Ron stated. My In-laws certainly don't consider me to be Ã…merican and they let me know it..often, usually during Lent! My Husband's family fought in the American Revolution his Mom is DAR. From their point of view, my family are...oh...dare I say it..."Dirty Micks."

It's probabaly that more than anything that makes me something of a St. Patrick's day Scrooge. That and the fact that I known none of those people partying in the streets on St. Patricks Day!

I'll stay at home and make my husband some Lamb Stew and Apple Dumplings as stated above!

Now all-important FOOD talk:

PEACE: I use a beef suet pasty recipe. To my mind, no pasty is more tender than one made with beef suet. Here in Los Angeles you can also get Manteca, a type of meat lard which also makes a good pasty. if you don't eat pies and dumplings every day, it doesn't hurt to use the artery-clogging suet!

I'm also planning on making a Necatrine & Blueberry Fool because I got a box of Nectarines from my fruit of the month club this week. They'll be perfectly ripe in time for Friday. Fruit Fools aren't very common here in the US but I love them.

In case you care PEACE, I add some steel cut oatmeal(not american rolled oats) to my Lamb Stew to thicken it and for the vegatables I use Swede, marrow, parnsips, carrots, leeks and sweet onion. I also put some freshly grated ginger into the whole mess before baking it to add a nice bright taste. If you don't like nuggets of oats in your stew, you can leave them out and use pulverized rolled oats to thicken the gravy and get the same rich creamy flavor.


When I make my apple dumplings friday, I'll note what I use so I can message it to you (If I ever recall my password). I make it up as I go along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 11:16 PM

Thank you so very much. And Happy St Patrick's Day to you and Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 07:27 AM

Doug, that's why I might be paying my respects to Flynn's tonight instead of tomorrow.

Besides; have to drag out the harp tonight, tune it, and get the fingers in shape for this weekend. A little "lubrication" (read: Jameson's) always helps a practice-session go more smoothly. ;)

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 11:34 AM

Doug, Get the feet-up and put on that Firestone Irish Tenor CD, and float away with a glass of Paddy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 11:53 AM

HSPD to you, ard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 01:55 PM

All this quibbling reminds me of a St Patty's day celebration at one of our local schools. There I seen several first generation emigrants meet for the first time and guess what they all asked each other? 'what County are ye from'?

Well Oim Oirish twooo and I have to remind myself that Saint Patrick was English, so there; moreover, his colors were red as well as green.

Guess he is everybody's Saint and so we all get to celebrate the holiday.

Happy GreenBeer day!


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 02:58 PM

The same to you Peace, in the occupied six northern counties of Ireland it is a normal working day, but not for the Nationalists, although in my younger days I have seen people lose their jobs for taking the day off,now they just lose a days wages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 03:30 PM

Saint Patrick was English

Good screaming holy fuck, no he was not.

The Angles and Saxons didn't even know where Britain WAS in 400 A.D. Much less had they started squatters' settlements on it.

Patrick did come from Britain, but if anything he was Roman. "Possibly" Romanized British Celt; but either way, he was about as English as pasta fagioli.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 03:43 PM

"Good screaming holy fuck, no he was not."

I haven't laughed so hard in a while. Thank you. Never heard that one before. (Unfortunately, never had one either.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 03:44 PM

Still laughing.

Any chance you'll do voice-overs for Batman cartoons?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Alba
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 04:10 PM

There are a few points which a lot of people agree on and some on which they differ regarding Patrick's origins.
From the transcription of Patrick's two works The "Confessio" and the "Epistola ad Coroticum" it pretty much depends on the translation
Some say Maewyn Succat (later to become St Patrick) was born at Kilpatrick, near Dumbarton, in Scotland, in the year 387 and died at Saul, Downpatrick, Ireland, 17 March, 493.
It's generally accepted that he was captured when he 16 on the 'West coast of Briton' (though not specific on location but some agree that it was nearer to the shorter sea crossing between the British Isles and Ulster (which would then support his birth being in Scotland) and there after he was sold into slavery to a Druid Cheif in Ireland, and six years later he escaped to Gaul where he later became a monk. Around 432 he returned to Ireland as a missionary and succeeded in converting many of the island's tribes to Christianity.
There are some that say he was born on the West Coast of Wales and some that say he was born on the west Coast of England.
Where ever he was born, he is Ireland's Own now.

Jude


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 04:14 PM

I have it on good authority that he was born in Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Alba
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 04:29 PM

LOL B,
Could be, could be. On the West Coast though huh!
Love
Jude


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 04:41 PM

Absolutely!

Funny that St Patrick has a day that is recognized all over the world, while ol' St Andrew, St David and St George have days that are much less 'celebrated'. Interesting. Anyone care to comment?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 05:05 PM

I think there was a discussion about this on one of the other threads...could be something to do with the island going predominantly Protestant?

Of the three patrons you mentioned, David does seem to get the biggest nod on his feast-day.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Dave'sWife sans cookie
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 07:46 PM

Well, here's a fine how do you do, my formerly Presbyterian husband reminded me this morning as I was making pasty dough out of beef suet that St. Patrick's day being on a Friday this year and during LENT puts the kabosh on both my Apple Dumplings AND my Lamb Stew! Those were my protest dishes.

I reminded him I am a lapsed Catholic who attends a different Church with HIM lo these past 7 years which is nither Catholic NOR Presbyterian and so I kept right on rolling out the dough!

This is something of a family joke ever since his mother put meat on my plate on Good Friday ten years ago when I was a practising Catholic just to see if I'd eat it. I did out of concern that I would offend her and then she and her sister jumped up to point fingers at me and call me a "Bad Catholic." All this was a few weeks before our Catholic Wedding, something she objected to vehemently. Ah, memories.


That gave me a good laugh but did make me wonder just how many Corned Beef's are gonna be cooked tomorrow considering!

I was speaking to an Irish friend of mine who lives in Toledo OH (not American) and she told me in Toledo the 16th of March is called "St. Practice Day" and the drinking begins there at 7 Am on the 16th.

St. Practice Day. LOL.

So, who's gonna eat Corned Beef tomorrow even though it's Friday and LENT? (me me me me)


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 08:02 PM

"Good screaming holy fuck, no he was not.

The Angles and Saxons didn't even know where Britain WAS in 400 A.D. Much less had they started squatters' settlements on it.

Patrick did come from Britain, but if anything he was Roman. "Possibly" Romanized British Celt; but either way, he was about as English as pasta fagioli.

Slán,"

You very well knew what I meant and took it in a very un St Patrick way! 'Twould not matter what it was then called since we don't today know the name, it is NOW called England. Next, how do you know St Patrick wasn't an Anglo? did you have his DNA tested? Don't think so. So I know you are talking out of your big boasty hat.

Pog mo ? agus Slan, big bully!


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 08:03 PM

"Next, how do you know St Patrick wasn't an Anglo?"

Simple. He was a Canadian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 08:35 PM

some trollish ape-like gibberish which concluded with "Pog mo ? agus Slan, big bully!"

Feh. :/

Dún do bheal, agus feisigh do thóin féin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 08:39 PM

That caps it. You are both speaking Canadian just like it used to be spoke and as it was taught to us all by the Blessed Saint himself. Just proves my point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 08:47 PM

Well, I knew the Mormans claimed CHRIST had a New World ministry none of the Biblical authors bothered to write about...

So there's now a book of Maewyn too? :P

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 08:49 PM

Just felt like chiming in to show off that I finally remember my Mudcat password! yay! Now I've written it down in case I lose my cookie again as I am wont to do from time to time.

My apple dumplings are all made and lined up in a row ready to be warmed for tommorrow.

PEACE - it helps if you use those little apples - not crab-apple size but halfway between a crab-apple and a real apple. I think in the USA they call them Sweetheart Apples. I use Golden Apples for my dumplings becuase they cook up nice and tender. You can pour a bit of Irish Whisky into the sugar&spice mix with the nuts and sultanas. A couple drops adds a lot of flavor. I did that today and they smelled heavenly while baking. I also mix some cinnamon and castor sugar into the pasty dough. When you serve them, melt some brown sugar (or dry carmelized castor sugar)and butter in a saucepan, add liberal amounts of cinnamon and mace and another splash of whiskey. Pour the hot spice suace over the warm dumplins and serve with some ice-cream.

yay! I have my cookie back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 09:08 PM

THANK YOU very much. I will try that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 11:09 PM

Interesting thread-not only did I learn someting about St. Patrick, and the history behind that celebration, but I also learned Dave's wife recipe for Apple Dumplings!

As an African American with no known Irish ancestry, I make sure I don't wear green on St. Patrick's Day. Too many unfunny comments about being "Black Irish".

However, I sincerely say to all who celebrate this holiday,
Happy St Patrick's Day!


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 11:18 PM

BTW, my daughter is a first grade teacher at a public school that has 99.9% African American students. I asked her if she plans to wear green tomorrow, and she said yes. On this day, as on all others, the students in the school wear [non-green] school uniforms.

Usually my daughter goes to work early on St. Patrick's Day or the school day before St. Patrick's Day. She decorates her classroon with shamrocks, and sprinkles green powderly sparkles in a trail on the floor and on the children's desks.

Then she leaves a warm greeting on the blackboard from Mr or Ms Leprachaun {alternating genders in different years}. Her students then write a reply to the leprachaun as their writing assignment for that day. Needless to say, the children have written some creative, and often funny examples.

I'm going to share this thread with my daughter so that she can also tell "her children" about the background of St. Patrick's Day.

Thanks again for the info!


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 16 Mar 06 - 11:22 PM

Azizi - laugh about the Black Irish but let me tell you something you may not have known:

A number of Irishmen left Ireland and went to fight the English in South Africa during the Beor war. The idea being, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Some stayed and married African women. One of the fellows imprisoned during Apratheid, last name of McBride, is descended from one of those fellows. I think his name is John McBRide and his great grandfather was Willie Mcbride. I could be wrong on the n ames, but not on the circumstances.

It is very common to find African-Americans of Irish descent in The United States due to the fact that Freedmen and irishmen often worked at the same jobs and were social equals. I have a few friends in my congregation who have Irish Great grandfathers (from ireland) who were "white" and yet, they self-identify as African American due to skin color.

Of course, that's not what anyone means when they refer to "Black irish" but I thought I'd toss it in for your amusement.

If you are ever in los Angeles Azizi, come to my house and I'll make you Apple Dumplings!


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 12:03 AM

Thanks Dave's wife!

I'm aware of a number of African Americans who have Irish ancestry, and I have read of the historical & cultural traditions linking Irish Americans and African Americans. For example, I've read that tap dancing is a result of the blending of the dance styles of these two cultures.

However, I wasn't aware of that there are South African Black people who have some Irish ancestry as a result of their ancestors fighting in the Boer wars. I guess-as per South Africa's traditions re: racial classification, these people consider themselves to be "Coloured'. [?]

Dave's wife, I very much appreciate your invitation to visit your home and sample your dessert.

God willing, I'll be able to take you up on your offer sometime in the not too distant future.

Best wishes!

Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Alba
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 12:30 AM

Dave's Wife you definetly have the name right.
I only know a little about John Mc Bride and even less about his Son but here's the little I know of.
John MacBride came from Westport Co. Mayo and at some point he emmigrated to South Africa were he organised the Irish Transvaal Brigade. The Brigade were Irish and Irish-American miners living in the Transvaal who joined with the Boers to fight the British.
He eventually returned to Ireland.
He was an Irish Republican who was executed in Kilmainham Jail by the British for his role in the 1916 Easter Rising.

His son Seán was very active in Irish Politics and won the 1974 Nobel Peace Prize.
(I think he was a founder/member of Amnesty International?)
In fact time to dig out some more information on this topic.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention again.

Now about those dumplings you make..lol
I want some Apple dumplings too..I mean if Azizi, my astrological Sister, can have some then can't I?...:)

Hi Azizi sounds like your Daughter has a great Day planned for the Children.
Love and Warmest Wishes as always Sis
Jude


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 01:18 AM

Jude - so it would be John Mc Bride's great grandson then who is a black activitst in South Africa I guess. He's quite lightskinned. I've seen interviews with him where he talks about his Irish Ancestry.

I assume I learned all this at my Grandfather's knee who was born in Mayo.

Yes, Apple Dumplings for everyone who comes by!


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 01:36 AM

"Dún do bheal, agus feisigh do thóin féin" op[wiekl;amna.,dsmal'kdfa ..yeah right

Gibberish to most people who see this page. The reason for that is Gaelic is a dying language, but to me its just realy bad Irish and the person that wrote it an eegit. If a gobshite can be insulted - unlikely in this case through lack of brains - I would do it but what's the use of beating an already dead bore?

Instead I'll say for you in English what you failed to say in Gaelic.

Go the fvck off and boil yer head until yer brain begins to work. Meanwhile, shut the fvck up and don't be abusing an old dying language with yor ignorance and bad grammer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 07:59 AM

My brain works fine, you trollish waste of flesh (and bandwidth).

And as for ignorance, anyone who makes a butt-ignorant statement like "Patrick was English" in a public forum, when the English as a people didn't yet exist (the A-S's may have, but if they tried to get a toehold on the island while the Romans were in control they'd have gotten their asses kicked across the North Sea) deserves to be called out for their apparant inability to crack the spine on a single fucking history book.

Sorry that you lack the opposable thumbs to do so, but you there you are.

"Bad grammar?' Just to refresh your memory, here is a verbatim paste of the wankish poseur-shite you posted: Pog mo ? agus Slan which is a phrase every teenaged Irish-wannabe who doesn't ACTUALLY speak Gaelic has begun parroting (or trying to) when they think it'll make it sound like they do.

Ergo, I'm unimpressed.

(The word you apparantly couldn't think of was thóin, BTW.)

Go the fvck off and boil yer head

Wrong again, O Simian Knuckle-Dragging Wonder. It was "shut your mouth and go fuck your own ass."

Which I suggest you do, and leave this thread in peace. You dropped the collective IQ of it just by walking through the door and contaminating the common air.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir
    Settle down, please. Windsinger and Sorefingers are both guilty of personal attacks in this thread.
    If you'll recall, we don't allow personal attacks. As I used to tell my kids - "I don't care who started it - just STOP IT!!!"
    Thank you.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 10:28 AM

Ma'am. I am in awe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Alba
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 10:40 AM

Shock and Awe, B or just awe?:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 10:42 AM

99 is the new 100.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 12:20 PM

..Slán,

~Fionn"


And good riddance to you, Irish Language mangler, Irish nation shaming turd, Irish people slandering unmusician poser. One who had no life at all before a therapist showed you 'Mudcat'. Fake, fraud, coward and eeejit of the day, March 17th 2006.


Famous Irish musicians

M Coleman ( AngloIrish )
M Russell ( Ditto )
J Morrison ( Ditto )
T Peoples ( Ditto )

( Windposer isn't on any list that I know of but there again we sometimes need a clown to laugh at )


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 12:31 PM

Once again, dude: the word you were scratching for earlier is "thóin".

Tee haitch, oh-fada, eye en.

Which is exactly what you're behaving like.

Slink back under your bridge, troll. Save your monkey-chatter for whatever passing billygoats might give a flying damn.

(Citing a children's book, in hopes you might actually recognize a literary reference that's at your reading-level),

~Fionn


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 01:51 PM

JOo Offer said it best.

Shut up already and talk about something nice.

GreenBeer is very good so I'm off to get one....

Happy St Patty's day :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Peace
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 02:06 PM

Fionn is a damned good singer, fine writer and excellent musician.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 02:31 PM

Thank you, Peace. ;)

Granted, I'd accept it even if you said it sucked; at least you and Bobert -- that I know of -- not only HEARD the material before pasing judgement, but actively produce your own recorded music.

Looking forward to this work-day ending,

~F


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 02:45 PM

Speaking of school children, is anyone familiar with this custom?

Today an age forty somethingish African American woman in my office had on a green sweater. She saw me with my black pants & gray sweater on and said "It's St. Patrick's day and you don't have on any green?! Watch out or you'll get a pinch."

When she saw that I didn't have a clue what she was talking about, she explained to me that when she was in school in Houston, Texas, kids who didn't wear anything green on St. Patrick day would be pinched on their arm by other kids througout the whole school day. One thing those kids would do to avoid getting pinched was to go get a leaf from a tree and pin it on their shirt or blouse so they wouldn't be pinched. I guess then they could pinch other children who didn't have on anything green. But she didn't say that. BTW, her school was all Black.

After I heard about this, I did an informal survey of other folks {both Black and non-Black} in my work place. No one else had ever heard of that custom. Maybe it's a Southern USA thing.

Anybody else heard of kids pinching other kids who don't wear green for St. Patrick's day?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 03:00 PM

Absolutely. Forwarned is fordressed. Kids love St. Patrick's Day. When I grew up it was the one day of the year we were not encouraged to be miserable about something. The one day of the year to just have fun and not worry about purgatory and suffering souls and Lent etc. In fact, whatever you give up for Lent you can do on St. Patrick's Day and even if it falls on a Friday you can eat meat. If your archbishop has not given you permission for this, he should have so I would seriously consider doing it anyway but that is up to you of course. If you don't have an archbishop, don't worry about this in the first place. So just have fun today whatever your persuasion. Don't let people make fun of you for celebrating..there are spoilsports everywhere and they are not in charge. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 03:06 PM

Azizi,

Yeah, it's an American thing. Probably regional; it wasn't practiced where I grew up either.

One explanation (there's more than one, I'm sure!) was that according to Celtic legend, the more mischievous types of faeries would repeatedly pinch humans who displeased them in any way. So by failing to wear green, you're somehow offending the little people.

One of the other rules of the game, is that if you get over-zealous and pinch someone who actually IS wearing green -- like some small or hidden article of clothing, socks or a hair ornament -- you get penalized.

This can mean getting gang-pinched in return (yipe.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 03:13 PM

Thanks for that explanation. I suppose this is just a kids' thing, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 03:22 PM

Supposedly. But adults who were raised on it, will still do it with a surprising amount of enthusiasm.

Ex: Just had a phone convo this morning with a friend who is dating a native Scotswoman. She apparantly hit the ceiling when she got her first pinch; no one saw fit to warn her (poor lady.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: gnomad
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 03:50 PM

Someone way up there was asking about "Why corned beef?" Ireland was a source of some of the finest beef cattle for a long time before refrigeration was around. A major export trade in (largely corned) beef was carried on, especially in the Cork area.

Later the emmigrant vessels from England often made a final European call in Cobh to collect the last possible supplies for a trans-Atlantic passage, including both fresh and preserved beef. I would therefore speculate that the association of these supplies with "the Old Country" may have led to the corned beef feast of today. Incidentally I have heard that the hinterland to the supply ports still has a cuisine which makes great use of offal, these being the cow parts which could not be preserved for export.

Don't know if that helps any. I'm away out now, I just hope that the English drunks who have become Irish for the night have adopted the habit of non-agression along with a taste for stout.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 03:57 PM

"...even if it falls on a Friday you can eat meat."

"Yer a trout, yer not a steak... yer a trout, yer not a steak...."

Ah, ya gotta be Irish Cat'lic... or have gone to a Tommy Maken concert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Antaine
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 04:52 PM

"Next, how do you know St Patrick wasn't an Anglo?"

because the only 'anglos' were the Angles, who were still living along the German/Danish border at the time. It wasn't until they mingled with the Saxons (and were subsequently invaded by the Normans) that anything suitable to be called 'English' had emerged as a culture. When dealing with an island that has changed hands culturally, simply using the current name is horribly inaccurate.

As for Lent, most bishops (as have been noted) give dispensation. Simply replace your meatless Friday with another one during the week or do another form of penance in its stead.

And lastly, is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte. Is an fuil croí teangacha cainteoirí nua. 'S ea, mhaise, tá "Gaelic" (eg Gaeilge na hAlban) ag fáil bás, ach ní bhéidh Gaeilge na hÉireann marbh am ar bith gan mhoill...

Beannachtaí Lá Fhéile Phádraig daoibh, a chairde...


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 05:14 PM

Azizi, pinching has always been a tradition in the Rocky Mountain West, too. I caught myself, today, even, thinking I'd better get out my green, even though my dad always had us wear orange on this day. He did allow a bit of green just to keep us from getting pinched!


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Will Power
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 07:00 PM

Really Bad Irish Jokes for St. Patrick's Day



Paddy O'Reilly told his wife he didn't want to be confined to bed, fed with liquids and connected to machines. So his wife threw out his armchair and TV , and poured all his beer down the sink.


Did you hear that Genetic Engineers developed a Seven-leaf Shamrock? The only problem seems to be you get a week's bad luck for picking it.


Drunken O'Hara went into a Chinese restaurant and ordered corned beef and cabbage. They brought him green beer and a fortune Cookie which said "The Universe Changes- So Must You!"


Freddie' O'Hanlon woke up on Saint Patrick's Day dressed and found himself so jaundiced his skin had turned a bright orange. "Bejeezus!" he said, and went to his doctor. The Doctor told him his must immediately quit drinking immediately but when he got the bill the orange quickly changed to bright red.


Kelly the drunk goes into a bar and announced he has a magical frog. "You've gone bonkers," say the patrons. "Watch this!" says Kelly, and he takes the frog out of his pocket. The frog starts singing like Pavarotti "Big deal," says the barman. "You're using an amplifier!" The barman takes the frog and throws it into the sink. It disappears down the drain. A couple of years later Kelly comes back and says "I have three magical frogs!" But when the barman tries to grab the frogs and dump them they hop off in different directions and start singing in three-part harmony. But they only know one song, and the barman looks at Kelly and says "I can't stand that. I'll give you free beer for a year if you shut them up.!" So Kelly whistles and the three frogs hop back into his pocket. Kelly looks at the barman and says "Next time, throw the frog in the microwave!"



Tommy Toohey got drunk one afternoon and stumbled into a Temple, where the elders were discussing the Torah. He saw the bearded men looking into a scroll and ran out swearing off the sauce forever "Jesus, Joseph and Mary," said Toohey, "I never dreamed my sins were that numerous!That was one hell of a long list!"


A Boston bartender accidentally put a permanent green dye into the beer. All his patrons turned green. "Don't worry!. said a patron. "It'll wear off before the Celtics are out of the playoffs!"


An Irish Priest thought it was time he learned to use the internet. So he was surfing along and came to a rather risqué website. He was interested and repelled at the same time. The Monsignor came in and asked "Doing a bit of research?" The Priest said "Better the Devil you know than the Devil you don't!


McNamara the Priest went into the Confessional, when a well-know politician came in and said "Bless me , father, it's been twenty years since my last confession" "Don't worry!" said the Priest "The Lord will lighten your load!" So then the Politician started listing all the sleazy deals he had made in the last twenty years. It went on for hours. "You needn't go into so much detail!" said the Priest. "But I must get everything off my chest!", said the Politician. Finally the Priest said" That's enough! Your sins are forgiven. Say five Hail Maries and sin no more!"

'But that's impossible!" said the Politician. "It's my nature to lie, cheat, and steal" Just as the exhausted Priest was leaving the Church he heard the squeal of brakes and a dull thud. The Priest ran over to see the Politician standing over a dead homeless man. "Thank God!" said the politician. That could have been me". "Hope springs eternal" said the Priest.


A Leprechaun was out for a walk one day when he found himself scooped up in a lepidopterist's net. "Give me three wishes!" said the Butterfly man "And no tricks!" So the Leprechaun starting listing the rules. "Three wishes only. No duplication. The third wish can't be for three more wishes There are no returns and no exchanges" But the Leprechaun was startled when the butterfly man suddenly turned him loose. "You don't even want one wish"" said the startled elf. "Too much fine print!" said the Butterfly man. So the Leprechaun turned him into a toad.

A couple of Irish-American Politicians were visiting Ireland and were comparing backgrounds. "My Great-grandfather was so poor they had to eat rotten potatoes and sleep seven to a bed." "That's nothing!" said the second Politician." My family was so poor they pretended they were English!"



On Saint Patrick's Day a child accidentally went to school with an Orange shirt and green socks. He got pinched by every kid in school and went home to change clothes. "Why did you let me wear those clothes?" he complained bitterly. "What's the matter? said his mother. "Are they teasing you about the turban again?"



An Irish tout was pleading with his customer to put all his money on a horse called "Pride of Ireland". But the savvy customer referred to the racing form and said "That nag has finished last in every race' "But this time the horse can't lose" said the tout "it's a one-horse race!"



Paddy bought a parrot and took it home. The parrot would sing "When Irish Eyes are Smiling" and "Danny Boy" incessantly. The wife complained, and said "Teach that stupid bird something new!" But no matter ho hard he tried, the bird only would sing those two songs. But one night the constable brought the drunken husband home nearly unconscious and the bird broke out in "God save the Queen!"





A farmer went out one day to milk the cow. He was shocked when the milk came out green. He yelled at his wife "The milk's green again" "What do you expect when you feed it nothing but shamrocks!"



An Irishman named Reilly applied to be a London Bobby. He was shocked when he was actually hired. They put him to work in Cheapside, where his chief job was pulling Irish drunks out of the dustbins. One day he pulled a drunk out of an alley and the drunk saw his nametag. "Say, you wouldn't be a Reilly from Donegal?"

"That would be my mother's family" said the amused copper.

"Would you believe I made love to a re-haired wench there one day?" "No, I wouldn't!, said the copper. 'She had a mole on her chest" The astonished bobby dropped the drunk in the street.

"That would be me mum," he said. "Did she wear a crucifix?"

"Yes, and I kept it for a souvenir!" and the drunk pulled the keepsake from his pocket!

"You might be my father" said the astonished copper. "I'll have to let you go!"

But instead of hugging him, the drunk hauls off and punches the cop in the nose! 'That's it" said the cop. "Now I'm going to have to take you in!"

"Why'd you punch me?" asked the cop.

"No wanker son of mine would ever work for the Brits!" said the drunk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 07:02 PM

I had never in my life until today heard you were supposed to substitute St. Patrick's Day for another day. That is new and not good. It should be a day off period. They said something on TV about it.

This is now a sad day for me...it used to be great. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 06 - 10:34 PM

(Well, gol danged, Bobert... Heck of a food fight here today... And you weren't even in it???)

Well, goldanged!!! Here I've had company fir the last two days and couldn't exactly say, "Ahhhh, excuise me while I go get embrolied in a bunch of mud slinging and sterotypin'"....

Ummmmmm, now the P-Vine is like about between 50% Irish and a 150% Irish and so I live this St Patty's Day 365 a year 'cept, hey, why anyone would wait until just one day a year to have a few beers seems a little laim to me... I drink year 'round like the big boys..
It's a man thing that ain't got one danged thing to do with nuthin'... Men don't need no excuse to drenk!!!

But nevermind drenking and fightin' and carryin' on... Lets talk laundry here!!!

Yeah, why is it that Irish women can't hang a blue and a black sock together on the clothes line eith the same clothes pin??? Yeah, fir all you Irish authorities, answer me that one... Hey, if you do hang a black sock and a blue sock together with a single clothes pin will they not dry???

I mean, lets get real here on this siantliest of sainty days and get to the bottom of something that matters other than why folks drenk... Hey, look around you at this messed up world we are all collectively creating... That's why we drenk and it ain't just Irish folks either...

But, danged, why this obsession of clothes line etiquite... Okay, I have noticed that the Mennonites 'round here also are afflicted with the sock mixin' thing... But they don't frenk so fir anu of you Irish authorities, expalin that one....

O'Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: LadyJean
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 12:56 AM

My all time favorite newspaper cartoon was published in the Post-Gazette many years ago. A police officer has brought two shamrock wearing drunks into the station, and he's telling the sergeant, "Sean O'Casey and W.B. Yeats here for writing *@$# %!Iran on a squad car in green paint."

My family is almost entirely Irish___Protestant. I have some Catholics on mother's side. But Mom was Presbyterian and Dad was Methodist. He was also a staunch Republican, a bourbon drinker (shudder!) and Irish of the Irish. He told me about Finn McCool, and Leprechauns, and Parnell and why boycotts are boycotts, and he's the reason why I have a cat named Grace O'Malley. (She went to the pet blessing at Sacred Heart Church, so she's an Irish Catolic.)

When I was in grade school, I always had a green ribbon in my hair on March 17. Which is howcome I started getting preferential treatment from the gym teacher, Mr. Sullivan. Which, as I am a fainter, was an excellent thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mr grouchy
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 01:25 AM

Re: pinching. Started hearing about this stupidity about ten years ago in northern Alberta. Just another brainless excuse for bullies to bully, under the guise of "it's all in good fun". Did I mention I'm a schoolteacher?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 02:21 AM

A young man from Belfast visited London for the first time & had his first ever Pint of London Beer.
They asked him what he thought of it.
He said it was "pure ale."
They thanked him for the compliment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 06:36 AM

I am probably an outsider, since I don't know if I have any Irish ancestry, but as a person who is familiar with being stereotyped, I want to say that it seems to me that this Irish=heavy alcoholic drinking seems like stereotyping to me.

I am also disturbed that it appears from this thread and others [particularly around St. Patrick's day' that alcoholic drinking=manliness and/or heavy drinking/gettingy drunk [on St. Patrick's Day or otherwise] is a positive.

As I said, I don't know if I have any Irish ancestors or not, but I think this is a people thing, not an Irish thing. And as a person whose twin sister died of alcholism, and as a person who rarely drinks alcoholic beverages because I probably inherited the gene for alcoholism, this "rah rah I'mma get drunk" talk [on St. Patrick's day or otherwise] doesn't sit well with me.

Somehow, since other people are often negatively affected family members and other individuals who drink hard liquor, I would hope that people recognize this stereotyping and are cautious about even social drinking {and driving and taking one's aggressions out on others etc etc etc].

It seems to me that it must be difficult to be an Irish person who has acknowledged that he or she is an alcoholic.

I pray that any alcoholic got through this most difficult of days without relapsing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 06:41 AM

Sorry for the poor sentence construction of my last post. I'd like to rewrite one sentence so that it reads better and better expresses what I was trying to say:

Somehow, since family members and other people are often negatively affected by individuals who drink hard liquor, I would hope that people recognize this stereotyping and are cautious about even social drinking and driving and taking one's aggressions out on others because their inhibitions are lowered as a result of that drinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 07:15 AM

Also, as full disclosure, let me mention that in the interest of sharing multicultural information & commentary, I re-posted some of my comments on this thread on this page from my website:

http://www.cocojams.com/celebrations_and_holidays.htm

Also, with his prior permission, I re-posted two comments from this discussion that were written by another Mudcat member. A comment from this thread that was written by a Guest was also re-posted on that same Cocojams page. This was done in accordance with my agreement with Joe Offer for use of Mudcat posts from Guests {non-members}and Members in my writing projects.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 07:20 AM

I forgot to add that anytime I re-post comments from Mudcat,
I include a link back to that Mudcat thread.

In doing so I hope to encourage Cocojams readers to visit and to join Mudcat. On at least one occassion this has resulted in one person taking the plunge and joining Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 08:14 AM

Well, herself and I went out last night to celebrate a friend's upcoming nuptuals (it was also our anniversary). She and her fiance' are both from the (US) midwest and are mostly of German ancestry. Both wore green. Many of those present were of mostly or entirely Spanish-speaking ancestry...and all wore green, many with pseudo-Irish sayings on their shirts (such as "you don't have to be Irish to be lucky"). Jenn (who is mixed Russian-Jewish and Scots-English) and I (and I'm mostly mixed German, French, English and Irish, with a lot of unknowns) wore green. Drinking was moderate (it was a bar, after all) and none of the beer was green.

St. Patrick's Day in the US has long since become a day to just have fun. I've never lived in a place that had a very large Irish population, so I am probably missing some of the nuances of the celebration there (like excluding gay people from the march in NYC), but most of us really don't think of it as a day to bash the "real" Irish or celebrate Irishness (is that a word?) to the exclusion of everyone else. With all possible respect to friend Azizi, most of us also don't see it as an occasion to pointedly avoid wearing green to emphasize our non-Irishness. And yeah, most of the places I lived while growing up observed the "pinch if you're not wearing green" tradition.

Lighten-up, people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 08:18 AM

No offence was intended by my joke Azizi.
It is centred on the fact that in the accent of Belfast the phrase "Pure ale" & the word "Puerile" are pronounced identically.
I do however fully accept that "All x do y" thinking is at best unhelpful & at worst socially divisive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 09:14 AM

No offence was taken to your joke, Purple Foxx.

And I took no offence to artbrooks' post either.

But in regards to his comment "Lighten-up, people" let me say that, thanks to the sun, I'm lighter in the winter than I am in the summer.

;0}}


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Windsinger
Date: 18 Mar 06 - 10:21 AM

Azizi,

Just to put it into perspective:

Rather than thinking of them as a nation of alcoholics, it might be more accurate to say that the relaxed Irish attitue about beer parallels the relaxed attitude the French have about wine.

Ex: A book on brehon law I owned once -- the brehons, or lawgivers, working in conjunction with the bárds (poet-historians) and the druids (priests), are what kept the culture of ancient Irish civilization going -- contains some interesting laws that were once in effect on the island.

One prescribes the "legal" amount that responsible people of various professions (doctors, priests) are allowed to drink with a meal, so it won't interfere with their work.

IIRC, the respective limits were six and eight glasses of beer. :o Which, unless you're drinking from egg-cups, is enough to knock most people I know flat!

And while it's true that the pub-scene's a huge part of Irish culture, one could make a good argument that the draw of the pub is only partially the drink, and more what they call the craic -- i.e., shooting the breeze, palling around and generally being sociable.

Slán,

~Fionn

www.geocities.com/children_of_lir


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 01:34 AM

Just thinking about this.

Hope you all had a good 17th by the way

The point surely is that booze does occupy a rather unique place in Irish culture. Think of Finnegan's Wake - a drop of the stuff falls on Tim and it revives him, and as such it is interpreted as the life force - and becomes the basis for Joyce's great work.

Also the great Viking story tellers - the tradition of which is at the heart of Ulysses - pissheads to a man! Check out the chapter in Stuart Gilbert's critique of Ulyssess if you don't believe me.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater - the myths, the legends, the legendary drinkers, the stuff they got up to, the stuff they achieved - an enormous seminal strand in your culture.

Mines a green beer....


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:43 AM

wld, some food for thought:

Uisce baugh, which gave us the word whiskey, means Water of Life. So does the French eau de vie. There's got to be a reason for that.

And I think it is this: Our world's greatest artists (and I'm lumping writers, painters and musicians together here) have always achieved their peaks by altering their minds -- with whichever substances were available to them. And it would be a dull and boring world indeed if no such substances were around.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 08:31 AM

The problem has never been with the Irish when it comes to the negative stereotyping. The problem has been with the dominant Anglo American mainstream using "the drunk Irishman" stereotype as justification to discriminate against Irish immigrants.

There was good reason why there was a national outcry from Irish Americans when the newly elected Minnesota novelty governor, Jesse "The Body" Ventura, complained about St Paul streets (the Irish side of the river in the Twin Cities) being hard to navigate because they were built by drunk Irishmen, on Leno's show.

Old prejudices die hard, especially among all those American Protestants who insist upon wearing orange on St. Patrick's Day.

Odd no one seems to be interested in THAT St. Patrick's Day custom, isn't it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 09:38 AM

That's a "custom" I've never encountered, GUEST, and I have lived in most parts of the US. Isn't 1/3 of the Irish flag orange?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:32 AM

Just one example I found online (where there isn't much discussion of it--though it has come up on some other St Paddy's threads here at Mudcat):

American custom of wearing orange on Paddy's Day


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 06:00 PM

While I wore orange on this day because my dad suggested it, there was never any rancour nor stereotyping of Irish in our home. I also wore green. My dad wasn't a religious man; in fact he blamed religion for a lot of the woes of the world, esp., as he put it, "the Holy Pappy in Rome." I don't remember it being quite so important to my siblings or mom, but Dad and I always made a point of celebrating this day AND wearing orange AND green. It was just a special day for us, celebrating the bit of Irish we had in our blood; nothing negative towards any Irish. I didn't even know enough about the "Troubles" to understand anything different until I was an adult.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:04 PM

About stereotypes...there was an article in an Irish American magazine about why these stereotypes are so strong and hard to erase...they seriously concluded that the stereotypes linger because many of them are just plain true. I read somewhere that Irish either drink probably to excess or don't drink at all....there might not be a good middle healthy ground...I think alcoholism is strongly related to the whole diabetes/metabolic/malnutrition syndromes and quite soon They will find the proper diet etc. for alcoholics (actually I think they have and it is a high protein, high vitamin one) and the problem will be greatly reduced. I was told all my life I was Irish (only half..the rest being Welsh, Cornish I am just finding out and Native American..all groups who don't fare well with alcohol) and I just couldn't drink. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:36 PM

Why the Irish, then? Why not the Italians, Germans and others in Europe? When my brother lived in Germany for three years, he saw children taking beer to school with them, for their lunches. What is about the Irish which brought about such a stereotype?


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:42 PM

Their war with the English.


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Subject: RE: BS: Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 07:21 AM

>>>From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:32 AM

Just one example I found online (where there isn't much discussion of it--though it has come up on some other St Paddy's threads here at Mudcat):

American custom of wearing orange on Paddy's Day<<<

In some parts of the USA, it is still very common for Protestants to wear Orange on St. Patty's day to 'protest of the holiday' when what it seems they are really protesting is the continued presence of Irish Catholics or Catholics in general. I don't believe this is as common as it once was and it appears to be a regional thing and seems to be limited to the East Coast. I don't ever see it out here in California.

I grew up in and around New York City during the 1970s and this practise orf wearing orange was quite common in the public highschools, which often saw an influx of Catholic students in the 9th grade. Catholic High-school tuition was and is often beyond the means of working class Catholics. Many families will do their best to send their kids to Parochial School through the 8th grade but just can't cut it after that or, they send them to Public school to take advantage of Advanced Placement programs. Another reason is that transportation to the nearest Catholic Highscool is problematic or that enrollement spaces are not avilable. As a result, in some areas with lots of Italians or Irish families, there will be a substantial increase in Catholic students being enrolled in the 9th grade.

In the public High-School I attended, this sudden influx of Italian, Polish and Irish Catholic kids was met with various tactics to remind the Catholic kids they were on a lower societal rung. One tactic was the mass wearing of orange on St. Patricks day. Another was spitting at the foreheads of kids who went to Ash Wednsday services. I'm not sure that the effort to wear orange was Anti-Irish so much as it was Anti-Catholic. There were others related to Holy days of obligation and so on.

I'm not sure how common any of this is nowadays, but when I was in Highschool, none of the kids wearing orange deliberately were of Irish ancestry and it was not about pride in their Ulster heritage. It was intended as an offensive gesture. The Italian kids also got teased but I can't say specifically what things were done to them. The Polish Catholic kids were subjected to the usual "Pollock" jokes. And, these same kids threw pennies at Jewish kids and teachers and theym were quite cruel to Black kids. Ahh, High Schoo! "memories....like the corners of my mind..."

It's not all bad, my memories of having to integrate into Public school! There was one group of Protestant kids who belonged to a Church that derived from Quakerism. It was a stand-alone church I only remember as The 'Federated' Church. The "Federated" kids were quite nice and we enjoyed their company immensely - very open minded families and very welcoming to us Catholic kids. Members of their Church were often our Scouting leaders with many of them owning businesses in the are. Tthis was due to their being descended from people who first settled the area in the early 1700s. Wonderful people who didn't spit on ash wed or wear orange on St. Patty's day to taunt!


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