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BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day

GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 09:13 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Mar 06 - 09:27 AM
Liz the Squeak 19 Mar 06 - 09:28 AM
Den 19 Mar 06 - 09:42 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 10:10 AM
Bill D 19 Mar 06 - 10:19 AM
Azizi 19 Mar 06 - 10:33 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 10:40 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 10:44 AM
Ebbie 19 Mar 06 - 10:45 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 10:53 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 11:09 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 11:11 AM
Ebbie 19 Mar 06 - 11:15 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 11:22 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 11:24 AM
Ebbie 19 Mar 06 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,Boston Boy 19 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM
Purple Foxx 19 Mar 06 - 11:52 AM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,Boston Boy 19 Mar 06 - 12:00 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 12:06 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 12:12 PM
Purple Foxx 19 Mar 06 - 12:17 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 12:20 PM
JohnInKansas 19 Mar 06 - 12:25 PM
jimmyt 19 Mar 06 - 12:30 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 12:36 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 12:44 PM
Gorgeous Gary 19 Mar 06 - 12:46 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,GaelicPolice 19 Mar 06 - 12:57 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 01:08 PM
Ebbie 19 Mar 06 - 01:19 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 01:21 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,thurg 19 Mar 06 - 01:29 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 01:31 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 01:36 PM
John MacKenzie 19 Mar 06 - 01:51 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 02:01 PM
catspaw49 19 Mar 06 - 02:16 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 02:30 PM
Azizi 19 Mar 06 - 02:37 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 02:45 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 06 - 02:47 PM
Seamus Kennedy 19 Mar 06 - 02:48 PM
John MacKenzie 19 Mar 06 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,Boston 19 Mar 06 - 02:54 PM
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John MacKenzie 19 Mar 06 - 03:19 PM
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McGrath of Harlow 19 Mar 06 - 03:33 PM
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Subject: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 09:13 AM

From whence does this American St. Patrick's Day custom originate, and what is it's purpose?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 09:27 AM

Never heard of it. There is an Orange Order which is an Northern Irish Protestant organisation. I somehow think that this is what you may be getting confused about. The tradition is as the song says The Wearin' O' the Green, but as green is associated with Glasgow celtic and therefore Catholics it may just be a protestant sulky backlash.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 09:28 AM

Orange Order, Protestants. Wearing orange in some parts of Ireland can be seen as an incitement to public disorder - the Orange Order are those who 'march' through Irish cities. There have been riots, injuries and deaths before now because they insist on marching their traditional routes, even though it deliberately takes them through mainly Catholic areas.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Den
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 09:42 AM

Go here for an interesting little twist on things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:10 AM

Posters are responding to the war between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland over which side will rule the land.

I'm talking about an American custom of wearing orange on St. Patrick's Day.

Do any American posters here, who seem to know so much about the Irish American history of the day, know what that custom is about in the US? As recently as two years ago, I sat and listened to a school librarian tell a library full of children that in her family, they all wore orange on St Patrick's Day, and claimed it was "all in good fun". Her high school students called her on it, claiming she was being outrageously bigoted.

So what gives with this time honored American tradition?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:19 AM

"... time honored American tradition..." Where? I never heard of it. Maybe it happens in some areas where they still hold the old Catholic/Protestant grudges, but it was always green everywhere I've lived.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:33 AM

I have some vague recollection of a person in my work place wearing orange for St. Patrick's Day because she was Irish/Protestant. But As Bill said, from my experience, it seems that that custom nowhere near as well known and practiced as wearing green for St. Patrick's Day.

I don't think that most Americans associate green with Catholicism, just with being Irish. And during that day, [supposedly] anyone can wear green even if they aren't Irish. However, it has been my experience that Black people get teased [in a friendly manner] if we wear green on that day. Though it's not the subject of this thread, I wonder if anyone has seen Asians, and people from the Middle East, and other people of color wearing green for St. Patrick's Day? I wonder if they also are teased about that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:40 AM

I also responded to artbrooks' question about this in the other thread.

Azizi, you are likely correct to a certain extent about orange being worn by Irish Protestants, to demonstrate their non-Catholic status.

But if the color green is to represent Irishness, and not Catholicness, what would the point be in wearing orange?

Here is the link I provided in the other thread:

American custom of wearing orange on Paddy's Day


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:44 AM

Also, I can answer that people of all races wear green in St. Paul, a VERY Irish town on Paddy's Day. Minneapolis (usually associated with Scandinavian Lutherans, the same way St Paul is associated with Irish Catholics) has a St Paddy's Day parade at night, to try and pull some of the after work bar business to Minneapolis (the St Paul parade is during the day, and their Irish bars are packed to capacity by 11 am).

The news media showed helicopter shots of the two towns parades on the news last night. Virtually empty streets in Minneapolis. Crowds as far as the eye could see in St Paul.

There is a lot of "wearing of the orange" around these parts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:45 AM

I've never seen any such thing.

!. Most Americans probably are not even aware of the political significance of orange in Ireland.

2. Most Americans have probably never even seen orange in connection with St. Patrick's Day.

If that school teacher said that, my guess is that as in Azizi's recollection, the teacher was an ex-pat Protestant who wasnted to START such a tradition...


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 10:53 AM

Well, to the Ancient Order of Hibernians, I assure you the wearing of orange on Paddy's Day would most definitely be perceived as a bigoted affront, because of it's association with Ireland's Orange Order, whom they (the AOH) perceive as the Northern Irish equivalent of the KKK.

Most Irish Catholics will also blanch at someone wearing orange on St Paddy's Day.

I think here in the Twin Cities, where a lot of Scandinavian Lutherans grew up "across the river" from St. Paul, which was a more Catholic city, it is simply a holdover of anti-Catholic bigotry. That is how the Scandinavian Lutheran librarian phrased it. She claimed it was to show they didn't worship the pope.

I think anywhere you see a lot of political and economic competition between Protestants and Catholics, you see the phenomenon of orange on the day. And also in places where there is a large contingency of Irish Protestants who feel threatened by the ascendancy of Irish Catholic identity/nadir of WASP dominance around the world in the more recent past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 11:09 AM

Also, there must be some logical reason why the orange on Paddy's Day is on the radar of these Mensa folk!

Just because some non-Irish folk at Mudcat haven't heard of the custom, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I'm guessing it has anti-Irish Catholic immigrant (which became more generic anti-Catholic in some places) origins in the US and Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 11:11 AM

Also, there is a tradition of wearing the colors of the Irish flag (green, white and orange) on clothing on St Paddy's Day (especially football jerseys), but there is no tradition among American Irish Catholics of wearing orange only.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 11:15 AM

Those 'Mensa folk', Guest, appear to be Canadian.

Earlier you described wearing orange as an American "custom". I realize that there are regional customs of all sorts; my contention is that there is no such American custom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 11:22 AM

I think you are splitting hairs here Ebbie, in an effort to prove there is no US custom.

When I say American in the context of Irish immigration, I'm always thinking both Canadian and US immigration because the two countries both had sizable Irish immigration groups coming in the wake of the Irish famine and it's Devotional Revolution aftermath.

I don't think this particular custom is regional. I think it is universal throughout Canada and the US. I've cited two examples, from both countries.

I have no way of proving this, of course, because folk customs associated with anti-ethnic and anti-religious bigotry tend to be covered up, glossed over, denied, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 11:24 AM

Or, I should have said, the custom is universal in the US and Canada in places with sizable Irish Catholic populations, particularly those populations that came over in the wake of the Irish famine and post-famine migrations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 11:32 AM

Whoa


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST,Boston Boy
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM

St, Patricks day was first celebrated in America by an order by the British military for the Irish soldiers serving in her ranks there !

Oh so nice to see a thread with an Irish tone that hasn´t been attacked by the famous two anti Irish catters !

Well it´s early yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 11:50 AM

This is posted at reference.com (scroll down, it is the paragraph just above the Related Articles section):

"Children in the U.S. celebrate St. Patrick's day by wearing green colored clothing and items. Traditionally, those who are caught not wearing green are pinched, leading to several St. Patrick's Day items hosting phrases such as "Can't pinch me!" Of course, people caught wearing orange (the colors of the opposing group Orange Order) on this day are always suggested to be wary, regardless of what country they're living in."


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 11:52 AM

You mention WASP's in this context GUEST but not all Irish Protestants are white & most are not Anglo-Saxon.
There is the famous Story of Hare Khrishna devotees visiting Belfast & being surprised to find themselves challenged as to whether they were Catholic or Protestant.
They shouldn't have been surprised.
Minds obsessed with sectarianism see everything in purely Sectarian terms.
I would put it to you that , that is the reason why you have People who are still prepared to bang the drum on behalf of King Billy in 21st Century Minnesota.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:00 PM

Here is another reference to "what not to do" (ie wear orange) from Poynter Online:

"Page One Today / March 2006
Each weekday, Poynter highlights the front page of a newspaper somewhere in the world. These images are used courtesy of the Newseum.

By David Shedden (more by author)
Library Director, Poynter Institute

Chicago Sun-Times, March 17, 2006
Newseum Image
March 17, 2006: An excerpt from a story in the Chicago Sun-Times:

A round-the-clock rush of St. Patrick's Day fun

By MISHA DAVENPORT

Chances are, if you're like me, you're waking up today after eight days of celebrating your Irishness.

Though the official parades have literally passed you by -- St. Patrick's Day merriment isn't over. There's still plenty of opportunity for some good craic (Irish for a good time). A timeline for how to spend the day:

9 a.m.

After sleeping in late, get up, shower and put something green on. Any other color with the green is fine, except orange. Do not under any circumstance wear orange on St. Patrick's Day (I make an exception, of course, for my orange hair)."

The Poynter Online website has a photo of the front page of the Chicago Sun Times as "Chicago O'Sun Times" with a photo of a red haired, blue eyed boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST,Boston Boy
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:00 PM

100% of race attacks in Northern Ireland are by Protestants. That is fact. There is the famous one by Fred Crowe a Unionstist Mayor of Craigavon who said after local muslims applied to build a place of worship, No it wouldn´t or shouldn´t be allowed, there is an old people´s home near by and it would distress them ! Got the newspaper sent over to me ! It wasn´t allowed to be built.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:06 PM

Now fellas, we don't need to get all sectarian, just because we are discussing a custom rooted in it.

To prove the point, let's lighten it up here a bit with this interesting tale of the wearin' o' the orange.

There is a reason why I didn't post this upstairs--it inevitably would have led to a flame war.

I am serious in my discussion of this as a tradition/custom/folklore of St Paddy's Day in Amerikay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:12 PM

I mention WASP, though I just as easily could have said "dominant Anglo American culture of the US and Canada. It just takes a lot longer to type. I think we all know that WASP is shorthand for today's more PC version of said shorthand, which is "dominant Anglo American culture". The religion default that nobody mentions (because it ain't PC) is that the "dominant Anglo American culture" in the US and Canada is also of the Protestant religion. We can't say that anymore, because it isn't considered polite to discuss politicized religious divides in mixed company.

And again, please, let's keep this thread OFF of what is happening in Ulster. This is a thread about an Irish American St. Patrick's Day custom, not who is shooting at Catholic school girls walking to school in (fill in the blank city/town) in Northern Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:17 PM

Suppose this would be a bad time to mention that (American style) St Patrick's Day celebrations are becoming popular in Japan?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:20 PM

It seems the most activie discussions of this online are in the blogs. Hmmmm...blogs must be very rich sources of folklore on the Internet!

Anyway, here is a link to one blog, where a person asks "what's up with the wearing of orange" and is answered by a link to this web page.

To which the original querent replies "ahhhh."


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:25 PM

When I was a newcomer to Boston, (ca. 1958) it was common for "outlanders" like me to be warned NOT to wear orange, even by accident, on St Patricks day, as it would be construed as "anti Irish" and could result in "aggresive actions" by those wearing the green. I don't believe that those giving out the warning were particularly informed as to the political or religious associations with the orange, but the "real" Irish population there was overwhelmingly Catholic (and mostly members of the police forces?).

I received similar warnings, although less frequently, in Milwaukee, ca. 1965, which is a bit perplexing as the population there appeared to be about 95% Polish (but still largely Catholic, I would presume).

In Milwaukee, again, the only explanation given was that "orange is anti-Irish."

I suspect that in both cases, it was another instance of a prejudice that outlived its own original meaning, although there may have been significant numbers of people in both places who actually held the prejudice and believed that they knew why - just not ones in my circle of acquaintances.

I haven't heard of places in the US where the wearing of orange on St Patricks day is traditional, but it's quite likely that some such places do exist. There are a few places where the main settlers were predominately Irish Protestants, and some others where they were at least a significant fraction of the Irish settlers.

The particular areas where I received warnings NOT to wear orange were most definitely predominately Catholic, regardless of what national heritages might be claimed.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:30 PM

I think it is just more of the grand American conspiracy much like the fact that even our Ebayers are evil because they won't ship out of the country. Don't you know that everything evil in the world is so American that there is really no use in trying to find evil elsewhere? more nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:36 PM

John, you are describing the exact phenomenon I'm talking about!

Now then, here is a link to a website called titled "St. Patrick's Day Fun @ FOUR EYES JOKE SHOP" (though the URL is "newenglandyankee.com).

If you scrowl down, you will find the "Orange Tie Dyed Shirt For non-Irish Celebrants".

I'm guessing it has a little something to do with the custom.

If anyone was looking for demeaning stereotyping of the Irish and Irish Americans, one couldn't find better examples than those exhibited at that website!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:44 PM

Hmmmm...I had forgotten that the custom being discussed also involves another anti-Irish stereotype (as John alludes to above): that of the violent Irish.

To wit, from an ezboard post:

"Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's legend, but apparently in NYC in the 70s, if you wore orange on St. Patrick's Day, you could get stabbed."


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Gorgeous Gary
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:46 PM

I had a good laugh this past week (which I shared with the two Irish Catholics in my office). The local (DC-area) classic rock radio station I listen to was advertising their big St. Patrick's Day bash...at a local Hooters!!

-- Gary


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:56 PM

PurpleFoxx, the increasing popularity of American style celebrations of the day seems to stem directly from the number of Irish musicians/bands (like the Chieftains and Altan) who began touring Japan in the 90s.

But it could be a karaoke thing too, for all I know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST,GaelicPolice
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 12:57 PM

This is yet more rubbish dressed up as a serious posting by some un-named guest, hoping to spread discord and nastiness.

First off Mr Guest, not all Irih OR SCOTS are Christian, and second I don't know even one Irish or Scottish Protestant who would admit to it, and none I MEAN none of these are sectarian assholes such as you seem to think they are. Irish or Scottish Catholics are not out here stirring up trouble either.

Colors; everywhere I have been in the world - YES THE WORLD - except Ireland, if there is a St Patricks day celebration then the most popular color is green, the most popular image is a leperachauns or a harp or a saint etc.

As for the NastiNornIron IRA/OrangeOrder neo nazi scum who have brought disgrace and shame on Ireland and the UK for the last 80 years, we all know what we would like thme to do, but we are too nice to say it. Go and figure it out for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 01:08 PM

OK. And thanks for that special input.

Now, back to the wearing of orange on the day folklore.

That online bastion of enlightened consumerism, CafePress.com, has a whole page full of "The Wearing of the Orange" products for St. Paddy's!

Can't say I ever saw any of those t-shirts in my years of partying at the parades!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 01:19 PM

Guest, what is your understanding of the word "custom"? And "tradition"? It seems to me that every link you have posted here implies just the opposite of custom and tradition.

I'm gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 01:21 PM

This one is interesting. It tracks hits to the Irish Eyes webblog, apparently.

And then there is this fascinating tidbit of orange/green urban legendry over at saintpatricksdayparade.com, about the dying of the Chicago River for the day.

And here is an interesting spin from another blog:

"This year, I am particularly annoyed that St. Patrick's Day is on a Friday, one of the few days I can go out and not worry about being in bed at a reasonable hour. Plus, I usually head to the Coat of Arms for an after work beer on Fridays, but because the bar has a British Isles theme, it's going to be packed. This despite the fact the bar is English. I guess Americans don't understand the centuries of animosity drilled into my head by my British grandmother.

That may be why I shy away from the holiday. My grandmother would school us even if we accidentally work green on St. Patrick's Day. "You are not Irish. You are English and must wear orange." I don't remember why orange exactly, but I think it had to do with some battle where the English crushed the Irish and the English happened to be wearing orange at the time. I never really went for this, mostly because I didn't think it was appropriate to symbolically give the finger to an entire culture on the one day they gather to party.

So whether you hole up in a bunker with Newcastle or dress like the Celtics mascot, Lucky, have a good time. St. Patrick's Day is about having fun and, yes, drinking, but it's also about pride. Whatever you do, try not to disgrace the Irish. They've been through enough already."

From After Dark with Beth LaMontagne at BlogtheCoast.com.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 01:27 PM

OK--one last time. I started this thread to talk about folklore surrounding St. Patrick's Day. The folklore in particular is about wearing orange, instead of green on St. Patrick's Day, and where it comes from/originates.

Have I not been clear about that? Call it custom, tradition, or folklore, I think it should be clear to everyone who visits Mudcat regularly and sees discussions of folklore of holidays, cultures, food, etc.

It shouldn't be that tough to understand what the thread is about here, Ebbie. So what's your problem with this thread? That is, if you have the decency to explain to us what you think is so terribly wrong with this discussion that you now must leave it in a huff?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 01:29 PM

I've lived and travelled all over Canada, and I've never heard of or seen anyone deliberately wearing orange on St. Patrick's Day. Not saying it never happened, but it's certainly not common.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 01:31 PM

And apparently, I was caught out before I even thought about all of this--as far back as 2004!

That NYC blogdude at least has a sense of humor!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 01:36 PM

thurg--I have rarely seen it either, though the school librarian I mentioned was wearing it on the Paddy's Day I mentioned, as her version of "celebrating" a day that wasn't being celebrated school-wide, just in her homeroom in the library. It was bizarre beyond belief, actually.

Yet, when I thought of it this a.m. when I logged in to the Mudcat St. Paddy's discussions, I thought it odd that there is so much folklore and urban legend surrounding something that I thought must only be happening in rare instances (as is often the case with folklore and urban legend).

Yet, there seems to be something of a new cottage industry springing up, if those pages of commercial products I linked to above are anything to go by...


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 01:51 PM

Why do threads on this subject bring out such a large percentage of Guests?
G. ☻


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:01 PM

Why should it matter if I'm a guest? Are guests not allowed to discuss something like this at Mudcat, because of the sad state of affairs in Northern Ireland (and the tendency of certain Mudcat MEMBERS to get in flame wars over it?)

I should have added to my last post at 01:36 PM, that there was even a report of this wearing of the orange phenomenon in the news reports locally here in the Twin Cities, along with the requisite "St Paddy's Day bar interview" of people wearing orange in a Minneapolis bar.

Just seems that in the last few years, there has been a rise in this practice, and that there certainly is folklore about orange being a taboo color on St. Patrick's Day.

So, is this a common thing? I doubt it. Is it rooted in popular mythology and lore surrounding the holiday? Absolutely--as much as the pinching someone who isn't wearing green (which is where this started for me today--see the other St Paddy's thread with contributions by Azizi about this) is, at least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:16 PM

HUGE TROLL ALERT

....as if you didn't already know. All of the unnamed Guest postings belong to one our favorite trolls and she is obviously up having a great time with this nonsense.......LOL......yeah, a real American tradition.........right..........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:30 PM

Ah, the Mudcat clones have now spoken. So this is how you shut down threads now--just piss on the posts of people you don't like?

Typical. The thread must be threatening some Mudcat regular, if catspaw is drawn in. What, you are the clone on duty today catspaw? Here to keep Mudcat safe from people like me, discussing St Paddy's Day in the BS section?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:37 PM

Hmmm. Well I didn't know that all the Guest posts were written by one person. And even if they were, I've learned something about folklore as a result of this and the other St. Patrick's Day thread.
And I'm sure I'm not the only one who learned something by reading this thread and this one:

Being Irish on St. Patrick's Day

I hope that this is understood, but in case it isn't, I want to say that in posting comments to these threads I meant no religious, political, cultural, or any other kind of disrespect.

And though sometimes I don't get the punch line of jokes, and maybe I'm dense, but I don't get the sense that other posters to these threads meant any kind of disrespect either.

I'm just sayin....


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:45 PM

Don't worry Azizi, it isn't you. I'm not very popular with the Joe Clones and Max, hence the attacks.

Your perceptions of the discussion are right on. Your comments about wearing green/getting pinched is what piqued my interest on the other thread. I'm Irish, and have lived in Ireland, Chicago, New York, Philly, and now St Paul. I don't try and hide or mask my identity beyond posting as guest. But when I talk about the Twin Cities, it makes it easy for the members who don't like me to identify me in a thread. Once they identify me, they start calling me a troll, and tell others (as a couple of the members have done in recent posts to this thread) to ignore the thread. It's their way of trying to keep me out of the Mudcat community, and ostracized.

It makes them feel bigger, somehow, trying to make me out to be the evil troll. But sadly, it also means the thread is dead. They have the power to do that here--kill threads by demonizing contributors to the forum like me that they don't like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:47 PM

And let it be noted, I didn't even post a single link (at least not knowingly) to a Conrad Bladey website. Now, if I wanted to troll, don't you think I'd have trotted out that ole OO workhorse?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:48 PM

Hi guys.
I'm just back from a road-trip performing all weekend.
What's happening?

Seamus


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:48 PM

I am puzzled as to why you feel the need to remain anonymous, surely if you feel so strongly about it you would want your posts to carry more weight by appending your name to them?
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST,Boston
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 02:54 PM

Lived in California, Nebraska, Ohio, Kentucky, Massachusetts. Never, and I mean NEVER heard of any "American" tradition to wear orange on St. Patrick's Day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Kaleea
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:00 PM

Since there are already several posts, I will make the following observations. I grew up in the midwest USA, & have not seen or heard of this. I have lived in many cities & attended their parades. I've played in Ceili bands since I was a kid, & participated in many years of St. Pat's festivities. I have always seen the flag of Ireland, and people wearing green.
   Many times people like to post something such as the above. Just because "guest" proclaims something to be an "American custom" does not make it so. In the future, when some such thread is begun, if we regular "Catters" do not post to the thread, it will simply fade into oblivion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:05 PM

Ummmm, bitchin' about anon guests are a better fit in in the litterbox here, methinks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: mg
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:08 PM

Well I have lived in Washington, Virginia, Alabama and NEwfoundland and I can assure you that it is very common at least in Washington. It is usually done in a teasing way and people don't really realize it could be offensive or provoking but it has gone on forever and is not new. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:10 PM

You know, this is just the usual Mudcat crap. Now the bandwagon is filling up with members crawling out of the woodwork, who can't wait to get their lashes in on me, because catspaw tooted his horn.

Apparently, it's a slow day for fart jokes.

It IS American folklore, people, regardless of what you think of me, or whether you have heard of it or not.

If it is mentioned in the Chicago Sun Times, Poynter Online, and there are articles on sale at CafePress.com, all about wearing/not wearing orange on St. Patrick's Day, I don't really give two hoots what the rest of you have/haven't heard of when it comes to this subject.

Why should I, or anyone else for that matter, believe any of you more than me?

Oh, because catspaw said so?

Sure. And he, after all, is a real authority on Irish American folklore, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:13 PM

Thank you mg, for speaking up. Considering your feelings about and lifelong participation in the holiday being discussed, as well as your location in one of the American cities with a fairly substantial and active Irish American community, I trust your words here will be heeded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:19 PM

"It IS American folklore, people, regardless of what you think of me, or whether you have heard of it or not."

So St Patrick is American is he?
I see he didn't drive all the snakes out of the USA!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:20 PM

Shit stirring still, Giok?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:33 PM

Orange is every bit as much an Irish colour as Geeen, as any glance at the Irish flag will demonstrate. And that's why the flag was made that way.

True enough there's been a bit of a tribal dispute about what political arrangements would be the best way to organise things on the shared island, but that's a temporary disagreement which can't last that much longer - another one or two generations. But Green or Orange, both sides are Irish, and the day belongs to both of them equally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:00 PM

Yup and all under my own name good isn't it?
It's called standing up and being counted and it's what all honest people do!
Giok ☺☻


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:07 PM

Shit stirring under your own name is what honest people do?

Glad I don't live in your world.

McGrath, you didn't read the first twenty or so posts again, did you?
Just piled in on the lemming bandwagon, without a clue as to what the thread is about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:12 PM

And let me be merciful, and pronounce this thread as officially dead.

Killed by the usual suspects--Mudcat members with an inflated sense of their own opinions mattering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:44 PM

Bullshit


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Willie-O
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:50 PM

I'm with Thurg. I live in rural eastern Ontario, where there are still a few active Orange Lodges, and a large number of small decrepit former Orange halls in small hamlets, which are no longer used as such. I've never heard of wearing orange on March 17th as a "custom"--and I'm in a staunchly Presbyterian and conservative neighbourhood that takes great stock in pride in tradition.

I had a look through that orangenet website linked above. Interesting stuff if not exactly forthcoming. They present the Orange Institution as an alliance of conservative Protestants of various denominations,who give lip service to tolerance of other faiths, but enjoy "pointing out errors" in doctrine.

The bottom line is, St. Patrick's Day is not their day, is it?   
The Orange day is July 12th(?) the Battle of the Boyne. They celebrate "Unionism" with the British crown, and the Protestant religions. Wearing orange as a statement on Mar 17th seems like just pissing on someone else's parade.

W-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 05:21 PM

July 12th is Orangeman's Day. Easter Monday is the day for celebrating the Republican tradition.

St Patrick's Day is for everyone who admits to being Irish, among others who just feel it's a good day to join in celebrating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 04:00 AM

Orange connection - King William of Orange - a region of Holland, the Dutch prince who was invited to be king of England when we ran out of Protestant heirs. Both he and his wife, his cousin Mary, were grandchildren of Charles 1st. Mary was Charles II Protestant neice, daughter of his (Catholic) brother James. Parliament invited her to become Queen and she insisted that William become King.

To wear orange is to declare yourself not Irish but English and Protestant.


"American Irish Catholics of wearing orange only" - you wouldn't get a good Catholic of ANY background wearing orange - it's usually seen as a pagan colour (and you thought pagans were all black!).

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 06:43 AM

St, Patricks day to me is about children dressing up, church goers honouring a Saint and local parades that have no connection with any political group.

It has always been a bigger celebration overseas than in Ireland. To me it´s another day of the week and good luck to anyone who enjoys the day in whatever way they wish to celebrate it.

And the same for Orange order members on the 12th of July, even through it´s a celebration I never wished to take part in !

I myself celebrate Easter Sunday and hope never to cause anyone offence.

Sadly this thread has went a little of track. Everyone should be allowed to celebrate there own tradition in their own way as long as it keeps within the bounds of not causing anyone offence or taking it to a point of flag waving for the sake of stirring up hate.

We can all do the same here folks.

By the way I am in Spain for the last month and coming to you from an internet cafe. The Spanish didn´t celebrate the day, I just lay in 80 degrees and enjoyed the sun !


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 07:24 AM

"to the Ancient Order of Hibernians, I assure you the wearing of orange on Paddy's Day would most definitely be perceived as a bigoted affront"

The AOH complaining aboutbigotry?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 07:28 AM

I am not a big Hibs fan Paul, I totally agree with what you say here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST,robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 07:44 AM

I've never heard of anyone wearing orange on purpose FOR or AGAINST Saint Patrick's Day. sounds like a troll. Orange has OTHER meanings anyway. Gonna start throwing stones at electric trucks?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 04:04 PM

A rather naive American such as myself might deduce from the fact that the flag of the Republic of Ireland consists of GREEN, WHITE, AND ORANGE, that orange is therefore a perfectly acceptable color in Ireland. Moreover, one might suppose, reasoning by analogy, that since on American patriotic holidays we decorate with red, white, and blue--none of those colors having any special significance by themselves--on a holiday that celebrates Irishness, we ought to decorate with green, white, and orange.

As a matter of fact, I've never *noticed* anyone wearing orange on St. Patrick's day, but I can't swear it never happens. If I did see it, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it was meant as an affront.

Don't Italians and Italian-Americans celebrate with red, white, and green? Mexicans, too, for that matter.

If Irish people consider orange so offensive, why did they put it on their flag?

My best guess it that they put it there because it was supposed to represent the peaceful coexistence and cooperation of Catholics and Protestants. That's a cause I could support. It's enough to make me think maybe I ought to wear some orange (and an equal amount of green, of course) next St. Patrick's day.

Now let me tell you a story. I used to own a bright solid-orange shirt. It wasn't meant to have any political significance whatever. I liked the color, that's all. I happened to wear it one St Patrick's day, totally by accident. (When I got dressed that day, it simply didn't occur to me that it was St Patrick's day.) My wife (who happens to be of Swedish and Norwegian ancestry but plays in a Celtic band) had a gig that evening at a Knights of Columbus Hall. I went to hear her play. When I arrived and saw everybody dressed in green, I suddenly remembered my orange shirt. I decided to keep my coat on! I did, the whole time I was there. I didn't stay long.

Now, I don't know that anyone would have been offended if I had taken my coat off, but I didn't want to take the chance. I didn't know anyone there, besides the band members, otherwise I might have asked. Looking back on it, I wish I *had* asked.

By the way, although everyone present was pretending to be Irish, I don't believe they necessarily were Irish. From the neighborhood we were in, I would expect a fair number of Poles and maybe a few Italians. Certainly they were nearly all Catholic; that's what K of C is all about.

I don't know what the person who started this thread had in mind, but I don't particularly care whether he was acting in a troll capacity. This is an interesting topic. For years now, I have wondered what would have happened if I had taken my coat off.

When I told my Irish Catholic brother-in-law the story, we had a good laugh.

By the way, I had worn that shirt at work all that day. No one mentioned it. Of course, they had all seen me wear it before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 08:24 PM

In Minnesota, there is an Irish pipe band of long standing called the Brian Boru Pipe Band. They proudly wear a kilt made, not of tartan, but of a solid brownish-orange color (or orangish brown?) which they call "saffron." (I thought saffron was more yellow.) They also wear green.

Here's a good picture of their uniform.

As you can see from their schedule, they play at both Irish and Scottish events, as well as public events of no particular ethnicity.

I don't think there is any political or religious significance to their choice of colors, beyond being "Irish." At least their web site doesn't mention religion or politics. And I don't believe they have ever provoked any hostility.

There is another band with the same name in Falmouth, Massachusetts, but I see they wear a green tartan, and no orange (or "saffron").

Funny, their web sites don't have links to each other. One is "dot-com" and the other is "dot-org".


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Scoville
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 11:15 AM

I just know that schoolmates and coworkers will pinch the Hell out of you if you don't wear green. (My pinching coworker was out sick but I wore green, and a pewter Celtic horse brooch, anyway because I was out of clean clothes.)



My Irish ancestors were Quakers so I guess rightfully I'd have to wear . . . gray. Not very festive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 09:05 AM

I had never heard of the pinching custom until I read this thread. Where does that happen? (I'm in the Midwest, USA)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 06:11 AM

In Ireland marching pipe bands, for example at Croke Park GAA finals, always wear orange kilts.

For some strange reason most pictures I've seen of Irish bands in teh States seem to wear tartan...


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: DougR
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 12:04 PM

Spaw: I kinda wondered when someone was going to wake up to the fact that GUEST is simply stirring the pot. Did a pretty good job of it too!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 02:45 PM

Jim, thanks for the links. FIne lookin' pipers! That is a kind of dark saffron, imo. When I think saffron, I think of the Dalai Lama and other Tibetan monks...their robes are saffron, too, but brighter and lighter in shade.

We've always pinched in the Rocky Mountain West; are we the only region which does that? I think my kids experienced it, too, in New England, but I'll have to ask them for sure.


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