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BS: Irshad Manji on the wall
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:11 PM 30! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 06 - 05:54 PM CarolC is now up to up to 29 posts in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 27 Mar 06 - 05:40 PM Has anyone ever noticed that all threads about Israel and Palestine eventually become threads about CarolC and live on well after the specific topic has been exhausted? It's astonishing, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: number 6 Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:22 PM Sort of like the "Greatest Story Ever Told" ... you take it or leave it. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:13 PM Well, those threads always attract pretty much the same people, and none of those people are about to just give up and walk away... I call it the Neverending Story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 06 - 03:51 PM Has anyone ever noticed that all threads about Israel and Palestine eventually become threads about CarolC and live on well after the specific topic has been exhausted? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST Date: 27 Mar 06 - 02:13 PM CarolC is now up to up to 28 posts in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 27 Mar 06 - 12:29 PM Possibly, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,Sigmund F. Date: 27 Mar 06 - 12:13 AM I might suggest that you seem to have an awful lot invested in this thread, emotionally speaking. In fact, I might even suggest that you seem to be as emotionally invested in this thread as the person who started it. Let's see, C. Ham, the person who started this thread made 10 posts. Robomatic, who CarolC accuses having an awful lot invested, emotionally speaking, made 7 posts. CarolC, on the other hand, has (so far) made 27 posts. It seems obvious who's really the one f***ed up over the thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 26 Mar 06 - 11:47 PM Although, if I were going to engage in that sort of thing, I might suggest that you seem to have an awful lot invested in this thread, emotionally speaking. In fact, I might even suggest that you seem to be as emotionally invested in this thread as the person who started it. But I'm not qualified to make those kinds of assessments, so I won't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 26 Mar 06 - 11:40 PM What I notice about you, robomatic, is your inclination to want to psychonalyze people. As I said before on another thread, you're not qualified to do that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,robomatic Date: 26 Mar 06 - 09:25 PM Yeah, CarolC it IS really me. You are quite right about one thing, I purposely sent off a 'taunt' much as you did to C. Ham and have done on many other threads. I have noted your tendency to 'count coup' rather than contribute to a multilogue, as you have done in this case by trying to recast one poster (C.Ham) as another (our much 'beloved' MG). And sure enough, you said you were outta here but you just had to checked one more time. Your use of ad hominem is threefold, one you make an ad hominem attack on the person being discussed, two, you make an ad hominum attack on the poster who disagrees with your first attack, and three, you then accuse the poster of ad hominum behavior. I thnk that's a tough but honest appraisal of your actions in this and other threads, though certainly not all. It is definitely not my typical behavior, but I couldn't resist giving you the same kind of send-off you gave C.Ham. Have a nice visit with your guests, and I have a couple of flights to make and a job o'work to do. See you safely on the other end? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 26 Mar 06 - 07:10 PM Is that really you, robomatic, posting as Guest,robomatic? If so, you surprise me. Even though I have gotten used to you making only ad hominem arguments in the absence of any kind of legitimate arguments, I am surprised to see just how low you are willing to go in the form of taking nasty pot shots at people. Or maybe you're just trolling. Either way, have fun with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Mar 06 - 04:51 PM Which ego will score the last damaging point? Who will rub his opponent's face in the dirt one last time? Who will achieve the final humiliation? Tune in daily for further episodes of our fascinating soap: "As the Mudcat Turns" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,robomatic Date: 26 Mar 06 - 04:41 PM Sorry to see you couldn't take the heat, after generating nothing but, Carol C. -robo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 26 Mar 06 - 03:12 PM LOL You guys are going to have to play this game without me. I've got houseguests for a while and I don't have time. beardedbruce, I don't claim to be perfect. However, my approach in this thread has been productive, as I had hoped it would be. As you can see, there are some very interesting and potentially enlightening discussions on the subject of ad hominem arguments in this thread. So nothing is wasted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,robomatic Date: 26 Mar 06 - 12:26 AM Thus being a resurrection of MG's tactics, he is now enshrined in CarolC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST Date: 25 Mar 06 - 10:34 AM But it was successful in wearing down C. Ham who realized her tactic and split. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,robomatic Date: 25 Mar 06 - 08:22 AM And I find CarolC's resurrection of Martin Gibson a kind of lonely call for help. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Mar 06 - 10:39 AM CarolC, Your last comment implies that people here are free to criticize CarolC if they disagree with the way you goes about critisizing ( whatever). That is the ad hominum attack that you have (rightfully) objected to being used against you. One should critisize the ideas that the person presents, NOT the person who presents those ideas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 24 Mar 06 - 10:17 AM Had you been following the discussion, Wolfgang, you would have known that I was quoting Ms. Manji when I said the thing Guest,C. Ham was criticizing, and as a result, you would have known that the sentence you used was not the one I was referring to. Ms. Manji is free to criticize the way Islam is practiced by some or even all of its adherents. And I am free to criticize Ms. Manji if I disagree with the way she goes about doing it. And I do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Mar 06 - 05:30 AM Carol, read again your 23 Mar 06 - 05:05 PM post and tell me whether you seriously believe I should have been able to guess that 'the same statement' meant one particular of many in a former post. I'm not a mind reader. But now I finally know what you are talking about I disagree. That sentence in a similar context would not be antisemitic in my eyes. Ms. Manji defends Islam against possible misinterpretations that Islam would request a patriarchal treatment of women. She fights for a more liberal and more even-handed interpretation of the Islam in her fight for women's rights. I applaud her for that. In Christianity too, there could be interpretations of the book (mulier taceat in ecclesia is one example) supporting male dominance. Liberal and not sexist interpretations of a faith based on a centuries old book don't come without a fight. She makes that fight within Islam against the literalist interpretation of the Sunni mainstream. I admire her for that. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 23 Mar 06 - 11:42 PM I don't know, but I wish she would. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: number 6 Date: 23 Mar 06 - 07:25 PM What would Irshad's reaction be if she could read this thread? sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:54 PM And by the way, I've seen practicing Jews get called "anti-Semite" by other practicing Jews plenty of times. Some of them right here in the Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:51 PM And thank goodness I'm not a member of the "left". ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:50 PM Adios, Guest,C. Ham! Wrong sentance, Wolfgang. But you knew that, didn't you. This is the sentence to which I was referring (with substitutions)... I hope I don't sound like a Judaism apologist when I point out that in cases like this, Judaism is not the problem; Jews are. And I think the death threats against her are reprehensible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:21 PM "The thing about the left is that it has, in recent years, developed an orthodoxy that is every bit as repressive as the orthodoxy in the right." Absolutely. In fact, that has always been the case, not just recently. Left and Right are equally given to hypocrisy, self-serving hyperbole, and unthinking prejudice. This makes it easy for them both to find a lot to accuse the other of, and a lot to bitch about generally. You could say exactly the same of the Arabs and the Israelis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:21 PM Over-interpreting XXX's words as a blanket condemnation of "all" Jews is absurd considering that she, herself, is a practicing Jew. I could tell you many instances of antisemitism in Mudcat but this would be one. What do you think about the death threats against her, Carol? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,C. Ham Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:15 PM Oh please, there are many Jews who criticize Judaism. Debate is inherent in Jewish culture. Gather together four Jewish rabbis and you might well have four different interpretations of Jewish laws and customs. If you've actually read Manji's book, not just the reviews by repressive people out to silence her, you would know that her goal is to stimulate open debate within Islamic culture. Seriously, CarolC, you should read her book. Do that and then we'll discuss. Until then, adios. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:14 PM Don't be silly, Ham...an idiot can easily confuse such things. ;-D And we are all idiots about some things, in my experience. Therefore smart people can also confuse things. Martin, by the way, is capable of showing more than one face. He's not stupid either. I know this from having had many interesting conversations with him from time to time. But the topical songwriter thing? Again???????? After all this time? You must be joking. Only extreme malice or encroaching mental illness could drive a person to indulge in such a petty hanging onto ancient past grievances as you are displaying, especially such very trivial ones. Why don't you just forgive, and move on? You can live easily without this forum. I'm sure you'd be happier if you did. After all, none of us is perfect, not you or me. We have all made sloppy and careless statements from time to time. We have all fallen short of total brilliance. I don't give a tinker's damn about my topical songwriting status in the field of protest music. It simply does not matter to me. It may have mattered once, but it doesn't now. Times have changed. So why should it matter to you? Let go of the past, Ham. It isn't real any more. It's gone, deceased, defunct, dead, perished, extinct. "If its feet hadn't been nailed to the perch it would be pushing up daisies." Move on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:05 PM I used to admire her work, Wolfgang. But since making the statement you quoted, I have learned a lot more about her. I no longer respect either her or her work. Over-interpreting Manji's words as a blanket condemnation of "all" Muslims is absurd considering that she, herself, is a practicing Muslim. And yet, had the same statement been made using the word "Jew" instead of "Muslim", many of the people on this thread as well as quite a few others not on this thread so far would have labeled it an anti-Semitic statement, or at least an incitement to hatred, regardless of whether or not it was said by a practicing Jew. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,Jack Winslow Horton Date: 23 Mar 06 - 05:02 PM "And all those politicians breaths stink bad, be they left or be they right" -from "Woodrow" by Tom Russell |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,C. Ham Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:59 PM Salman Rushdie, among other free thinkers, does stand with Manji. The thing about the left is that it has, in recent years, developed an orthodoxy that is every bit as repressive as the orthodoxy in the right. As a free thinker, Manji challenges both orthodoxies and pays the price from both sides. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:54 PM Usually, people on the left of the political divide are known to take a stand for writers living with a death threat for something they have written. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:47 PM I admire her work (Carol about Ms. Manji) is paid with money for her words (Carol) That's true for all writers, but somehow you manage to make it sound wrong. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,C. Ham Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:43 PM Over-interpreting Manji's words as a blanket condemnation of "all" Muslims is absurd considering that she, herself, is a practicing Muslim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,C. Ham Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:38 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:36 PM LOL, LH... and thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:33 PM People like Neta Golan and Justin Podur are the real heroes. Irshad Manji is more huckster than hero. This review of her book does an excellent job of making the point I think needs to be made about Manji generally. If she was genuinely interested in helping to heal the problems that exist with the cultural expression of the Islamic faith, she would do it in a way that brings about her stated objectives. But she is not doing that. The way she is going about it (being more concerned with self-promotion than with really helping to bring about social change), is producing exactly the opposite result than the one she says she wants. It is further dividing people into polarized camps, and it is doing more to spread hate than tolerance. I'm posting the text because you have to join to read the article, but here's a link for those who want to join... http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20051121&fname=Booksb&sid=1 The article - "In early February 1989, Iran's spiritual leader, Ayatollah Khomeini, was watching the gains of a decade-old Islamic revolution slipping away amid unemployment, inflation and corruption. No longer was it enough to denounce the "Great Satan" in Washington or recycle memories of the Shah�s twisted rule. Theocracy just wasn't delivering the goods. Then in the streets of the English city of Bradford, an opportunity presented itself to the crafty old man in Tehran. Local Muslims - Pakistani, Kashmiri and British-born - were rioting, burning a mysterious book. It was called The Satanic Verses and the writer, Salman Rushdie, was the real opportunity. An Indian-born, secular Muslim with the sensibilities of the London literary salon and a pointed pen, Rushdie became Khomeini's political salvation. Within a few weeks, the bearded old satrap had declared his now infamous fatwa against Rushdie. The writer was doomed to years of insecurity while the Ayatollah spent the rest of his life basking in the flames of Muslim anger that resurrected his reputation in Iran and the Islamic world. Irshad Manji is no Rushdie. But she might just be the Ayatollah. The Trouble with Islam Today is a vitriolic broadside against an entire faith and its Arabic followers. It's a bitter, ill-researched and awkwardly written pamphlet that purports to be an open letter to Muslims. I hesitate to call this a book for that would give it a heft and substance it lacks. This is the work of an agent provocateur, and it suffers from so many shortcomings that listing them all would be pointless and as tedious as the polemic itself. Not that books like this should not be written. Ziauddin Sardar, Stephen Schwartz and Bernard Lewis have all asked probing questions about Islam and the modern world and we're the richer for it. No faith is sacrosanct, whatever obscurantists in Tora Bora or the Vatican would have us believe. Religion comforts and kills by turns and we need to constantly understand its role in our lives. But to return to the late Ayatollah, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Manji isn't just actively courting the wild attention that this publication has garnered so far. Its critics are many and frequently unreasonable. Often, they are Muslim. They point out that she's gay, as she does countless times in her writing. They question her credentials as a member of an Islamic sect - Ismaili - that some orthodox Sunnis see as heretical, however much this proves her contention that modern Islam is mired in crises of resentment, intolerance and hate. None of these points matters a whit. What does is her motive in producing these pages of anger and scorn. Is she generally interested in provoking a debate among Muslims about the very real problems of their faith? Or is she looking to be declared a heretic by some mullah somewhere and garner even more attention than she has already attracted, a martyr-in-the-making who might otherwise have languished in Toronto as an obscure TV personality. Those who already hate the faith founded by the Prophet Mohammed will take great comfort from The Trouble with Islam. Muslims who believe in lurid conspiracy theories about Israel, Jews and the West are hardly likely to change their minds after wading through Manji's erratic, often bewildering text. Her call for ijtihad, for Islam to be reformed and debated in the modern context, lack all credibility when it is served up in a sauce of glib, repetitive mockery of the faith. Those looking for cogent critiques of Islam should avoid this book at all costs. In fact, I don't think anyone should read it." ____________________________ However, for those who see her as a hero, I do like most of what she says in the following quote, one which, I think, is contrary to the motives of most people who like to use her words to try to make points (and in many cases, to spread hate). I might actually have some respect for her as a social activist had she bothered to say "some Muslims" rather than making a blanket condemnation of all Muslims. But the fact that she does not bother to do so, pretty much ever, shows her true motivations, which are don't have anything whatever to do with promoting tolerance... "I hope I'm not splitting hairs when I point out that there are no 'laws' as such in the Koran. There are words, and those words are interpreted by men to shape laws. The key words here are 'interpreted' and 'men'. That is, the Koran says a daughter should receive half the inheritance of her brother, because her brother is expected to share his inheritance with family members in need. There are claims on a man's income that, in theory, there aren't on a woman's. In reality, of course, this principle gets distorted by sharia courts, which in turn are influenced by patriarchal prejudices and convenient cultural biases. I hope I don't sound like a Muslim apologist when I point out that in cases like this, Islam is not the problem; Muslims are. However, the fact that under almost every interpretation of Islam today, women suffer second-class status (at best) suggests that a deep problem does exist within Islam today. No apologia on my part. And, hopefully, no sarcasm either." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,C. Ham Date: 23 Mar 06 - 04:09 PM Look at Martin's writing, look at my writing. Not even an idiot could possibly confuse the two of us. And we both know that CarolC is a smart woman. She knew I wasn't Martin Gibson when she called me that. A dumb assumption might be if I called myself a major topical songwriter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Mar 06 - 03:39 PM How do you know that for sure, Ham? Might you just be making an unfounded assumption? I know Carol, and she doesn't strike me as being a deliberate liar. Nope, just doesn't sound likely to me. Not even vaguely likely. I think it's more likely that she did think you were Martin Gibson, posing under another name. (Carol, you do me an injustice! I could possibly be more wrong. I could be tremendously more wrong, I assure you...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,C. Ham Date: 23 Mar 06 - 03:01 PM CarolC knew damn well that I'm not Martin Gibson when she trollingly called me by that name. It was not an assumption and that makes her... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Mar 06 - 02:43 PM Just one comment here. To accuse a person of lying, telling a "bald-faced lie", is not valid or fair if the person was merely mistaken in an assumption they made. A lie has to be a deliberately told, pre-planned falsehood to be a lie. A statement made in error because it is based on an incorrect assumption is not a lie, it's simply an error. To call someone a "liar" when they have simply expressed an opinion about something is an inflammatory and unscrupulous form of attack. It's intended to hurt the person, not to illuminate or further the discussion in any useful way. Other than that, wouldn't it be nice if we could all get free of our internet "arguing and being right by making others wrong" addictions? I know I'd like to. ;-D If I do, you probably won't even hear from me anymore on most of these debates, and you can enjoy imagining that you got in the "last word" until you forget about the whole thing eventually and find something real to do instead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST Date: 23 Mar 06 - 09:28 AM I can't see any trolling by CHam. CarolC, however, instigated trolling by calling Manji a tool and then accusing CHam of being Martin Gibson, then a troll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: robomatic Date: 23 Mar 06 - 06:52 AM Carol: Re-read this thread. You've done nothing but attack the source of the original post, both the poster and the link. You've done nothing to speak to the actual issues yourself . So you've actually contributed nothing but vitriol to this thread. You've done it at last... YOU are Martin Gibson! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 23 Mar 06 - 12:19 AM You couldn't tar and feather me by calling me Martin Gibson, so you pull out the old canard of "troll." All I did was point out an interesting op-ed piece in the New York Times by a respected Muslim academic. No, you used one of the taunts Martin likes to use against me when he's making ad hominem attacks... the one the trailer out in the middle of nowhere. Thanks for the links to the quotes. I'll check them out tomorrow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: number 6 Date: 22 Mar 06 - 11:49 PM Irshad Manji is one of the bravest, most honest speaking women in the world today .... my hat goes off to her. and as to "Irshad Manji, on the other hand, is paid with money for her words." ... she earns every penny she gets. The world could do with more of her kind. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: GUEST,C. Ham Date: 22 Mar 06 - 10:24 PM "Ok, you're not Martin Gibson, Guest, C.Ham, you're a troll who is trying to look like Martin Gibson." You couldn't tar and feather me by calling me Martin Gibson, so you pull out the old canard of "troll." All I did was point out an interesting op-ed piece in the New York Times by a respected Muslim academic. If anyone is a troll, it is you who seeks to smear anyone who disagrees with you with McCarthyist innuendos of "tool," "Martin Gibson," "troll," etc. ---- Here are several statements by Irshad Manji on the occupation. "I passionately support an end to the military occupation of the Palestinian territories." The above quote is on this page. "military occupation by the Israel Defense Forces, and the distress that it's inflicting can't be denied." "I'm not implying that Israeli government policies are blameless. Far from it. For example, the government of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon refuses to arrest the criminals who set up illegal outposts in the West Bank. Such willful negligence will only feed extremism on both sides." The above two quotes are onthis page. "I know that Israel wrongly occupies Palestinian territories, and I'm the first to say that this occupation has to end." The above quote is on this page. "There actually are two occupations going on. One is the military occupation, which I cannot deny exists. But the other is the political or ideological occupation of the Palestinian people, and that can be laid at the feet of their so-called leaders. Both have to be cleaned up in order for a sustainable peace to take place." The above quote is on this page. "I'm not surprised that you accuse me of neglecting Palestinians. In our politically polarized environment, if you point out (as I do) that both Israel and the PA share culpability for the plight of Palestinians, then you're anti-Palestinian if not anti-Muslim. The reason? Simply because you haven't declared Israel to be the sole oppressor. I don't buy it, Mona. Neither do many Palestinians, who are as angry with the corruption of the PA as they are with the military presence of the IDF. Both occupations need to end." The above quote is on this page. "Likewise, I tip my hat the newer refuseniks — Israeli soldiers who protest the military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. They want to unlock the physical and geographic cages in which Palestinians find themselves. Their ultimate aim is openness." The above quote is on this page. "In fact, I've spent more time in the Occupied Territories and have updated my observations for the British edition of The Trouble with Islam. Of course, that hasn't stopped critics from charging Zionist motives." The above quote is on this page. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irshad Manji on the wall From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 06 - 06:27 PM I also notice you have not pointed out Wolfgang's ad hominem attacks on the sources I've linked to in this thread, robomatic. Why is it that you only point out or protest ad hominem arguments when they are from people with whom you disagree, and not from those who support your point of view? |
