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BS: Why does everyone hate America

GUEST 25 Mar 06 - 07:32 AM
Purple Foxx 25 Mar 06 - 07:35 AM
Purple Foxx 25 Mar 06 - 07:36 AM
ifor 25 Mar 06 - 07:52 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 06 - 08:06 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 06 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,JB 25 Mar 06 - 08:36 AM
kendall 25 Mar 06 - 08:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 06 - 08:49 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 06 - 08:53 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 06 - 09:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 06 - 09:17 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 06 - 09:21 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 06 - 09:22 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 06 - 09:24 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Mar 06 - 09:57 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 06 - 09:58 AM
Amos 25 Mar 06 - 10:07 AM
Little Hawk 25 Mar 06 - 10:11 AM
Little Hawk 25 Mar 06 - 10:37 AM
Once Famous 25 Mar 06 - 11:15 AM
GUEST 25 Mar 06 - 11:15 AM
Little Hawk 25 Mar 06 - 11:54 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 06 - 01:41 PM
Little Hawk 25 Mar 06 - 01:48 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Mar 06 - 02:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 06 - 05:18 PM
John O'L 25 Mar 06 - 05:33 PM
Little Hawk 25 Mar 06 - 05:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 06 - 06:10 PM
Little Hawk 25 Mar 06 - 06:25 PM
Teribus 25 Mar 06 - 07:45 PM
Don Firth 25 Mar 06 - 07:53 PM
Naemanson 25 Mar 06 - 08:11 PM
Little Hawk 25 Mar 06 - 08:18 PM
GUEST 25 Mar 06 - 08:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Mar 06 - 08:54 PM
Don Firth 25 Mar 06 - 09:51 PM
Little Hawk 25 Mar 06 - 10:12 PM
Once Famous 26 Mar 06 - 01:28 AM
GUEST,M.Ted 26 Mar 06 - 03:25 AM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Mar 06 - 08:04 AM
GUEST 26 Mar 06 - 03:59 PM
Don Firth 26 Mar 06 - 04:17 PM
Little Hawk 26 Mar 06 - 04:20 PM
Don Firth 26 Mar 06 - 04:22 PM
Little Hawk 26 Mar 06 - 04:27 PM
Little Hawk 26 Mar 06 - 04:28 PM
Shields Folk 26 Mar 06 - 04:29 PM
Little Hawk 26 Mar 06 - 04:49 PM
Don Firth 26 Mar 06 - 04:53 PM
John O'L 26 Mar 06 - 04:57 PM
GUEST 26 Mar 06 - 05:05 PM
NH Dave 26 Mar 06 - 07:09 PM
Little Hawk 26 Mar 06 - 07:46 PM
heric 26 Mar 06 - 10:14 PM
Bobert 26 Mar 06 - 10:25 PM
Paco Rabanne 27 Mar 06 - 02:35 AM
Kweku 27 Mar 06 - 05:49 AM
GUEST 27 Mar 06 - 06:01 AM
Bunnahabhain 27 Mar 06 - 06:33 AM
beardedbruce 27 Mar 06 - 06:35 AM
beardedbruce 27 Mar 06 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,redhorse at work 27 Mar 06 - 07:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Mar 06 - 12:01 PM
Little Hawk 27 Mar 06 - 03:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Mar 06 - 03:36 PM
Little Hawk 27 Mar 06 - 03:47 PM
Georgiansilver 27 Mar 06 - 04:10 PM
Little Hawk 27 Mar 06 - 04:32 PM
Georgiansilver 27 Mar 06 - 05:03 PM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Mar 06 - 07:32 PM
Little Hawk 27 Mar 06 - 08:04 PM
NH Dave 27 Mar 06 - 11:36 PM
Little Hawk 28 Mar 06 - 12:18 AM
GUEST,thurg 28 Mar 06 - 12:40 AM
Little Hawk 28 Mar 06 - 01:08 AM
Purple Foxx 28 Mar 06 - 01:33 AM
Little Hawk 28 Mar 06 - 02:23 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Mar 06 - 02:33 AM
Stu 28 Mar 06 - 03:43 AM
jacqui.c 28 Mar 06 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,robomatic 28 Mar 06 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Larry K 28 Mar 06 - 11:19 AM
Stu 28 Mar 06 - 11:37 AM
Stu 28 Mar 06 - 11:47 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 28 Mar 06 - 11:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Mar 06 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,closet francophile 28 Mar 06 - 12:49 PM
Little Hawk 28 Mar 06 - 12:53 PM
Little Hawk 28 Mar 06 - 01:08 PM
Teribus 28 Mar 06 - 01:22 PM
Little Hawk 28 Mar 06 - 01:47 PM
Desdemona 28 Mar 06 - 01:54 PM
Little Hawk 28 Mar 06 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,thurg 28 Mar 06 - 02:21 PM
Little Hawk 28 Mar 06 - 02:33 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Mar 06 - 12:41 AM
Paco Rabanne 29 Mar 06 - 02:12 AM
Sttaw Legend 29 Mar 06 - 02:27 AM
Stu 29 Mar 06 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,dianavan 29 Mar 06 - 03:44 AM
GUEST,Larry K 29 Mar 06 - 11:18 AM
NH Dave 29 Mar 06 - 12:01 PM
Little Hawk 29 Mar 06 - 01:43 PM
Peace 29 Mar 06 - 01:44 PM
Bunnahabhain 29 Mar 06 - 02:02 PM
Little Hawk 29 Mar 06 - 02:21 PM
Shields Folk 29 Mar 06 - 05:03 PM
Little Hawk 29 Mar 06 - 06:12 PM
Shields Folk 29 Mar 06 - 06:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Mar 06 - 07:09 PM
Shields Folk 29 Mar 06 - 07:19 PM
Donuel 29 Mar 06 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,thurg 29 Mar 06 - 08:34 PM
GUEST,me 29 Mar 06 - 08:43 PM
Little Hawk 29 Mar 06 - 10:30 PM
GUEST,not me but hey you 29 Mar 06 - 10:42 PM
Little Hawk 29 Mar 06 - 11:20 PM
GUEST 29 Mar 06 - 11:23 PM

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Subject: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 07:32 AM

just wondered


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 07:35 AM

They Don't. Everyone in this equation = Approximately 6 Bilion People.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 07:36 AM

Before anyone else points it out that should hae read Billion


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: ifor
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 07:52 AM

Everyone doesnt hate America! But there are billions of us who hate the neo cons and their oil wars!
Firstly the neo cons hate the American working class and underpriviliged of the USA itself.The Bus gang are quick to send others off to war when their own kids are kept far removed from the war zones.
However there is an Ameria that is loved and respected across the world.
It is the USA of
Paul Robeson
Marin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement
Woody Guthrie
Pete Seeger
Joe Hill
John Coltrane
The Mississippi Feedom Riders
Bob Dylan
Alan Ginsburg
Kurt Vonnegurt
James Baldwin
Curtis Mayfield
The anti war in Vietnam movement
Harriet Tubman
Mahalia Jackson
and those ordinary ,ornery Ameicans who are prepared to stand up to injustice wherever it appears
ifor


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 08:06 AM

USA's population 300,000,000 or so
you name about a dozen that are OK
I think my point is made


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 08:09 AM

i was just sittin' around picking my nose and I thought I'd post this statement as a question, y'know?
standby while I wipe off this keyboard...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,JB
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 08:36 AM

I feel it necessary to point out that there is a great difference between hating America and hating the bunch of rogues and crooks who are fucking up the world and America big time.

I doubt very much that the average person hates Americans, but the hatred that Bush, Cheeney, Rumsfeld and all their chronies have managed to produce over the last few years will take a very long time to heal.

Besides you can`t blame people for feeling very very sceptical about all those Americans who put that scoundrel back into power for another term. Even if it was only by the narrowest of margins, that still adds up to many million Americans.

America has been a great place to so many people and I`m sure it will in time recover to be a great and TRUSTED nation again.

JB


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: kendall
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 08:44 AM

Don't feed the troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 08:49 AM

The real question is why it seems so many Americans actually worry whether people hate "America" or not. I'm inclined to think that it shows a kind of humility, even though it may at times be expressed in a disguise of arrogance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 08:53 AM

Trollins what mudcat is all about


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 09:01 AM

and why do they hate the french after the french won them independence, a bit rude that


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 09:17 AM

Here's a recipe for making "Trollins".   Worth trying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 09:21 AM

thank you for that
yum yum


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 09:22 AM

its not french so it might go down well with the mericuns


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 09:24 AM

Is that what they mean by feeding the troll?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 09:57 AM

perhaps we need another term for GUEST

something less complimentary

PHANTOM DICKHEAD maybe......
GUERILLA CONTRIBUTOR


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 09:58 AM

mudcat welcomes "guests", sorry "phantom dickheads"


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 10:07 AM

Even ones who are below the minimum sanity quotient and pose questions like this one.

There is no "everybody", pal. It is, oddly enough, a null set. Big secret.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 10:11 AM

Why? It's obvious. For much the same reasons that Rome was hated 2,000 years ago, that Greece was hated some time before that, that Persia was hated prior to that....

That Stalin was hated, that Hitler was hated, that Imperial Spain was hated in the 1500's, and that the British were hated in the 1700's, for example (by the American revolutionaries and many other people).

But you already knew that, didn't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 10:37 AM

And, like Amos says, there is no "everyone" in matters such as this.

But you knew that too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 11:15 AM

I love America. So, it's not everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 11:15 AM

America is hated for the same reason "That Stalin was hated, that Hitler was hated"
That answers my question, thank you Little Hawk


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 11:54 AM

Those who are feared are hated. It's that simple. Whether they are seen as good or bad, that's all a question of in whose eyes. The Romans were seen as good in their own eyes, they were seen as the devil incarnate in the eyes of those whose lands they invaded and conquered, and the same goes for the British, the Nazis, Stalin, the French, the Spanish, the Japanese, the Persians, the Greeks, the Moors, the Iroquois (Six Nations), the Aztecs, the Mongols, the Chinese, etc.

As to who among those was more or less evil in their behaviour than the others, comparatively speaking, that can be debated until you're blue in the face, but it won't change anything.

Great conquerors are not loved by those made to dwell in their shadow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 01:41 PM

But I doubt if it would even have occurred to those people to ask as question like that, with its implication that the opinions of other people mattered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 01:48 PM

No, probably not, McGrath, except a few philosophers here and there. The average human does not focus on his own wrongs, he focuses on the wrongs of others. The same is true of the average politician (if not all of them...politics being a very competitive racket).


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 02:59 PM

Because people like Martin Gibson love it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 05:18 PM

The average human does not focus on his own wrongs. Ambiguous -    "his own wrongs" would normally be taken to mean the wrongs done to him, in which case I don't think that assertion is true. I suspect you mean "the wrongs done by him". "Wrongdoings" would avoid that ambiguity.

But I don't think it's a matter of self-awareness anyway - it's only when you are worried what other people think of you that you worry about whether what you are doing looks good or not, and feel a need try to persuade yourself you are a good guy.

I mean can anyone imagine the Romans caring whether they were "good" or not in the eyes of anyone else? The imnportant thing for them would have been that they were Roman, and the only adverse comparisons that could have worried them would have been with their ancestors, with the implication that they weren't Roman enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: John O'L
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 05:33 PM

Good post, ifor. I agree. Guest has of course missed the point, but only because he/she wanted to.

Purple Foxx:
Before anyone else points it out that should have read 'have read'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 05:34 PM

You suspect my meaning correctly, McGrath. I meant "his own faults and shortcomings and wrongdoings".

It IS a matter of self-awareness. Self-awareness is not so much concerned with what other people think OF you, but with what truly is rightful conduct and what isn't (regardless of whether it personally benefits you in the moment or not). How many people truly are self-aware? Well, it's hard to say, but most of those who are are not to be in the leadership positions running aggressive empires, anyway. That job doesn't suit people given to questioning their own motives. ;-D

You are quite right about the Romans. I am suggesting that the only people in a society like Rome who were likely to seriously question its ways were unconventionally deep thinkers of the time...such as philosophers or great creative writers, for example. (and only a minority of those as well)

Socrates questioned the mores of his time. So did Jesus. So did Buddha. Such people are rare. Their presence is usually considered subversive by the ruling order, precisely because they DO stand for self-awareness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 06:10 PM

And my point is that the fact that Americans do actually seem to worry about what other people think of them is something that in principle is rather honourable. Even when it shows itself in seeking to defending things that are really indefensible, there is an implicit recognition that ethical judgements are relevant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 06:25 PM

It is definitely honorable when seen in the individual American citizen.

American citizens are not well represented by their present criminal administration...nor were they well represented by the criminal administrations which preceded it (Reagan, Bush Sr, and Clinton).

What comes next? God knows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 07:45 PM

Envy, pure and simple, envy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 07:53 PM

SNORT!!

don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Naemanson
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 08:11 PM

The initial question is a generalization which is, as we know by its nature, wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 08:18 PM

Envy? Envy!!??? Ha! Ha! Ha! (gasp!) Ha! Ha! (snort!) Ha! Ha! Ha!

Oh, my....gotta wipe the tears away...

You are imagining that most Canadians envy people for living in the USA? Hey, man, I HAVE lived there. I'm in Canada now by choice. By God, I feel like kissing the ground whenever I return north across that USA border to sane, sensible, peaceful, reasonable Canada.

You are living in a dream world, teribus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 08:50 PM

Yeah, right, envy.

We envy your slums and your polluted air. We envy your unelected leaders. We envy your non-existent health care system. We envy your crime and the number of prisons you have. We envy your national debt. We envy the freedom of your press. We envy the repressive legislation brought forward by right wing Christian fundamentalists. We envy your fast food outlets. We envy food stamps. We also envy hollywood.

But most of all, we envy your international reputation as thugs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 08:54 PM

"Why does everyone hate America?" is about as sensible as asking "Why are all cats black and white?"

A rather better way of putting this question would be "What causes people to hate America?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 09:51 PM

"What causes people to hate America?"

Well, probably not America in toto, but perhaps a certain arrogant disregard for human decency on the part of certain American political and business leaders, perhaps?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 06 - 10:12 PM

The question is: What causes people to hate America as a political/military/financial controlling system?

Not the land itself. Not the American people. The American ruling $ySStem. That ruling $ySStem is the enemy of most of the American people themselves too...except for a tiny percentage of controllers at the top. I figure they are less than 1% of the population.

If they can fool even 20% of the American public into supporting them, they will claim they have a mandate. And so far they have been able to fool at least that many.

If necessary, they will stage (or assist and arrange not to prevent) another terrorist attack. Nothing unites a populace so effectively as a perceived threat from a foreign enemy. It worked for Hitler. It works for this administration. So far it has worked every time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 01:28 AM

That's right Richard Bridge. But lawyers are pukes no matter where they live.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 03:25 AM

Sayyid Kutb, the guy who started the whole Islamic Fundamentalism thing, hated America because he was shocked because he saw boys flirting with girls at church sock hops when he was in Colorado. Richard Bridge, by contrast, hates America because someone on eBay wouldn't ship something or other to him. Canadians hate America because of something to do with Salmon fishing, though I never quite understood what--

For my part, I hated America because of MCarthyism, Racism, the Vietnam War, and because no one would ever dance with me in High School--

I like America now, because I realized that there is more to life than sock hops--


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 08:04 AM

" feel it necessary to point out that there is a great difference between hating America and hating the bunch of rogues and crooks who are fucking up the world and America big time. "

But they work so damn HARD at it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 03:59 PM

Okay, Brits and others, do you hate us because we saved your sorry asses when you couldn't.

I never crossed my mind with regard to hateing any of you because I barely give you a passing thought to begin with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 04:17 PM

". . . we saved your sorry asses. . . ."

Yeah, right! Just whose "sorry ass" were we saving, anyway? It was damned lucky that this country woke up in time and was able to fight the Axis powers in Europe and the Pacific islands, because if they hadn't been defeated there, we would have been fighting the Germans on the East coast and the Japanese on the West. By saving other peoples' "sorry asses," we were saving our own, and at the same time, keeping the destruction of war off our own shores.

No sense of history, GUEST. Go read a book! (Also, you might want to learn how to spell.)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 04:20 PM

The British proved well able to save their own sorry asses, Guest. They, and they alone, stopped the Germans in 1940 when they won the Battle of Britain. That was the first German defeat in the war.    Hitler shelved all plans to invade Britain after the summer of 1940. The USA was not even in the war until Dec '41.

Further to that, it was on the vast steppes of Russia in '41-'44 that the German army suffered its truly decisive defeats and irrevocably lost the war. The USA was not responsible for that victory either.

Oh, you helped, all right, but you did not save Britain's sorry ass, they saved themselves, and if you think you did, well, you are just engaging in a little self-serving rewriting of history.

Besides, the French saved your sorry asses in the American Revolution. Remember? (grin) It was their naval victory over the British that enabled George Washington to defeat Cornwallis at Yorktown. So why are you Americans giving the French all this shit now over "freedom fries" and stuff like that? Short memory?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 04:22 PM

I would say the only "sorry ass" around here is GUEST's.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 04:27 PM

I think the West Coast would have been way too long a stretch for Japan, Don. Way too long. Not realistic. And the East Coast for the Germans? Well...they would have had to take England and defeat Russia first (then take 2 or 3 years to build a huge Atlantic navy) and they could not succeed in any of those objectives...even before the USA was in the war. Their effort to invade England had failed by Sep 1940. Their effort to conquer Russia failed before the gates of Moscow in the bitter winter of Dec 1941. The handwriting of German defeat was on the wall long before the first American soldiers set foot in Europe. The Germans took on too many opponents. By the time Normandy happened, they had already lost the war, and no doubt about it. They could still fight, but they could not win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 04:28 PM

People DO give a passing thought to a dire threat, don't they? That's why the world thinks about the USA a lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Shields Folk
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 04:29 PM

....and if the British had't saved your sorry ass' you'd be speaking FRENCH!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 04:49 PM

LOL! Yeah, this business of who saved whose "sorry ass" goes all over the place, doesn't it?

Let's see...

The French saved the Algoquins' SAs from the Iroquois...
The British and the Iroquois saved the future Americans' SAs from the French and the Algonquins...
The French then saved the Americans' SAs from the Iroquois and the British...

and blah, blah, blah, blah!

The real truth is: They ALL did it for themselves! 100%

The USA included.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 04:53 PM

Right, Little Hawk. They never would have made it. But the Japanese did shell the coast of California from submarines a couple of times (didn't do much damage), and a balloon bomb killed a group of children in Oregon. They also landed a force in the Aleutian Islands, apparently thinking of island-hopping their way to the continental U. S., which was not a very smart tactic.

Germany wouldn't have been able to do much more on the East coast, even if they'd made it all all. But they were working on the A-bomb at the time, had come darned close, and had already designed but not tested an intercontinental multi-stage missile (the A9-A10) with the A-bomb in mind (captured samples of their experimental hardware jump-started the American missile/space program). Some people have said that they were within a few months of getting The Bomb, so defeating them with dispatch turned out to be more important than we realized at time.

So there was a certain amount of self-interest involved in "saving sorry ass," as in "the sorry ass you save may be your own!"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: John O'L
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 04:57 PM

If the Japs hadn't attacked Sydney Harbour in '42 you'd ALL be speaking Australian today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 05:05 PM

Touchy, touchy, thouchy!!!!!!!!

Just the kind of response I expected - sorry about the typo, Don, but it did give a comeback of sorts. Glad to oblige.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: NH Dave
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 07:09 PM

I suspect that everyone doesn't hate the US because everyone doesn't know of the US' existence.

I also suspect that there was a time when Germany could have conquered any nation she chose to attack, but this refers to Germany fighting a way, led by her military people. That having been said, Germany didn't attack one nation, she took nations on in numbers odd and even, and she wasn't led by her military commanders but by that hysterical little Austrian who seemed to take advice from every off the wall kook, including his astrologer, or astrologers.

I'm sorry it infuriates some on this list that the US didn't jump right into the fray, when German hordes overran Poland, France, or any of the other countries who didn't emerge from under the heels of tyrants of one type or another for many years. The US, by and large, was just coming out of a depression, where few people had two nickels to rub against each other, let alone dimes. We were not in a position to aid other countries at the beginning of the war, although many individuals tried very hard to slip across our border with Canada, and sign up in their Air Force to help England out in this time of trouble. Other pilots voluntarily left our Air Corps, and volunteered to fly for China as mercenaries, for mercenaries' wages. This one was approved of by our military and State Department. Our president did a nudge and wink and began "lending" Britain and her allies war material and shipping to get them to England, an act regarded by the Germans as an act of undeclared war.

By the time Japanese forces attacked out Navy at Pearl Harbor, we were more ready for way, although burdened by a large number of ineffective aircraft, ships, and tanks. The Japanese took care of many of our battleships berthed in Hawaii, as well as many of our aircraft, and we blew through many of our inferior tanks at Kasserine, and other North African battlegrounds. By this time we had our industry turned around into making war materials. Automobile companies made tanks and aircraft and typewriter companies made rifles and sub machine guns, machine pistols to our European friends. Japanese strategists may have been correct in their thinking that if they could devastate our Navy at Pear Harbor, they could prove us incapable of waging Naval war, and force a non-aggression treaty from us, effectively taking us out of a Pacific war.

This didn't happen for several reasons. They didn't knock out our carriers at Pearl, thus priming us to wage a Naval Aviation War in the Pacific, rather a battleship war, which the Japanese might have won. Secondly their declaration of war did not arrive, properly decoded and presented to our government prior to beginning the Pearl Harbor Strike. Thirdly, thanks to the Polish and British codebreakers we were able to read some but not all of the Japanese Naval Codes, and some of the German Naval Codes as well. This allowed us to neutralize Japan's Yamamoto, in a surgical strike on his transport aircraft by US fighter aircraft, in the Pacific, denying the Japanese his strategy and strategic thinking for the rest of the war.

We waged a fall-back war in the Pacific while we marshaled our forces and joined in an attack on Vichi French held areas in North Africa.   Our Marines island hopped closer and closer to Japan, while our Armies were pushing across North Africa, Sicily, up Italy, and then massed for the cross channel attack onto Normandy, in June of 1944. Less than a year later, German forces surrendered to Allied Forces, and then after numerous fire bomb raids on Japan, culminated by two atomic bomb attacks on Japan's main island, wound up the war in the Pacific, where Japanese military and diplomatic forces surrendered to Allied forces on the Battleship Missouri, in Tokyo Bay.

While we couldn't have successfully taken on either Germany or Japan in 1940, by 1942 our industry had switched to a war time footing, and were turning out one heavy bomber aircraft every hour, at Ford's River Rouge plant, and other factories were designing and producing bigger and better tanks, aircraft, and other weapons, and our training bases were turning out armies of trained motivated men and women to bring the fight to our enemies.

This effort was so successful that we were able to help defeat two major powers, and then maintain an occupying force in both Japan and Germany, a feat we have yet to even suggest in Afghanistan and Iraq, today.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 07:46 PM

All true, Dave. I don't think the USA is hated by many (if any) for waiting until Dec '41 to go to war. Those were the political and strategic realities at the time.

No, they are hated now for their economic and military intervention all over the globe, and for their false pretensions of moral grandeur...just as Rome or Britain were once hated for much the same sorts of imperial activities...and the same sort of hubris.

Next, it may be the Chinese. We shall see. (if we live long enough)

I agree that the Germans, with fully competent military leadership, could have defeated just about any one nation in the 40's...except for the USA (they didn't have a big enough navy to do that)...and maybe Russia, but hard to say. Russia has a way of swallowing up invaders, simply because it is so enormous. If the Russians choose to fight, lose, fall back, fight again, fall back, and fight yet again...eventually the size of the land itself wins for them. The same would be true of the USA, in my opinion, were anyone conceivably in a position to effectively invade it in the first place. No one really is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: heric
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 10:14 PM

Maybe it's because their immigration applications were denied? I dunno. Maybe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 10:25 PM

Right now????

Bush....


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 02:35 AM

I think America is fab, and if I ever stop spending money on guitars and get solvent, I would love to visit the place


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Kweku
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 05:49 AM

the lizard says,"i am not angry at the kid who stones me, but the adult who stands there unconcerned".


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:01 AM

Yes, Flamenco Ted, I would love to visit you guys also.

I offer a somewhat thinly vieled apology for the 'sorry asses' comment. Kudos to those who offered fact based opinions. (Dawn, I really can spel)

and Quarcoo, Amen!


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:33 AM

Well, I don't but I can see why people do. A combination of fear, envy, and disgust. The last few Presidents have not helped matters at all.


And yes, a competent German millitary leadership would have conquered the British Isles in 1940-41, and would have had a free run at Russia at that point, with the Mid-eastern oil fields, without the RAF raiding it, and without any aid convoys reaching Russia. That would be a very long and bloody campaign for both sides, and impossible to see who would win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:35 AM

LH,

"for their false pretensions of moral grandeur..."


tell me about "sane, sensible, peaceful, reasonable Canada" and why they still export asbestos in violation of international law...


3 million dead asians, but they plan to do it peacefully.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 06:59 AM

LH-

Given the 10x greater population of the US, we would need to kill 30 million ( somewhat more than the total killed by all sides in WWII) to equal that level of per capita guilt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 07:20 AM

Now there's a new moral concept - per capita guilt!

On that basis with a population of 250 million the USA could commit genocide on 200 million people, secure in the knowledge that it was 20% less culpable than a murderer working alone who kills one person.

Bollocks!!!

nick


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 12:01 PM

On the analogy of "carbon emissions trading" you could have "genocide trading". Very handy when you run up against indigenous populations who get in the way of development by existing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 03:21 PM

Yes, BB, cling to that little shred of documented Canadian evil as best you can... (grin) I might remind you that we (our private industries, I mean) are also a major arms supplier, sending death-dealing machines all over the world (frequently to American-instigated wars) for the benefit of the New World Order. Focus on that too, and you will feel much, much better, because we are warmongers too.....OOooooo...we're BAD, baby, BAD. Like you.

Why is it happening? Because of capitalism. We have the same kind of big corporations here as in the USA, and they like making lots of money selling arms and ruining the world, same as the corporations in the USA do.

Matter of fact, economically speaking we are a helpless branch plant of the USA.

Be that as it may, it's still more peaceful, safer, saner, and nicer here in many ways, the health care is mostly paid for, and we are very well liked by the rest of the world, but the USA is not. So suffer, baby, suffer... ;-)

When you go travelling, remember to wear your Canadian flag decal. It helps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 03:36 PM

When you go travelling, remember to wear your Canadian flag decal. I believe that backpackers from the USA quite often do that as well.

And an Irish flag generally goes down better than a Union Jack ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 03:47 PM

Bunab, I quite agree with your analysis of Germany's chances in 40-41. I too think that with a competent military command they could have defeated Britain. The crucial theatre was North Africa, in my opinion. If they had taken it (while simultaneously threatening an invasion of England to tie down British forces) they would then have dominated the Mediterranean, they would have also taken the Middle East, and the UK would have been in a position to either sue for peace or face something much worse than a negotiated end to their war with Germany.

Hitler showed little resolve in these matters for some reason, although he got mad as hell over the bombing of Berlin in 1940, and ordered the mass bombing of London as a consequence...the very order that finally and thoroughly lost the Germans the chance to win the Battle of Britain. It was exactly the break the hard-pressed RAF needed, although it might not have seemed so to Londoners at the time.

The German preparations to invade England (Operation Sea Lion) were half-hearted at best. Hitler also allowed the B.E.F. to get away at Dunkirk in 1940! Astounding. He could have bagged the lot with a simple order to his panzer divisions to attack and crush the encircled forces. He held them back instead, only letting Goering's Luftwaffe attack the beaches in force.

If he had crushed the B.E.F. at Dunkirk, he could probably have invaded England in a month or two and taken the place.

I get the impression that Hitler never really wanted a war with the English at all, but rather hoped they would become his allies against Communist Russia. His real ambitions lay in the East. That was where he sought great territorial gains...grain, oil, and "living room" for the population of the "thousand-year Reich".


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:10 PM

Why does everyone hate America. Who hates America?...it's just a piece of land with people in it just as is the rest of the world. People may hate some aspects of the American ethic and culture but who hates America?. Who hates America any more than they hate the UK or Europe or Asia or Africa or S/America or Mexico or wherever. This is the world you were born into...learn to love it or die unhappy.
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:32 PM

Now, Mike, don't be obtuse. ;-) You know perfectly well what we are talking about here...

Be blessed, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 05:03 PM

Be Blessed LH.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 07:32 PM

"I get the impression that Hitler never really wanted a war with the English at all, but rather hoped they would become his allies against Communist Russia. His real ambitions lay in the East. That was where he sought great territorial gains...grain, oil, and "living room" for the population of the "thousand-year Reich". "

Exactly what Mein Kampf and his other outpourings said.


"The crucial theatre was North Africa, in my opinion. If they had taken it"

They had very little chance of doing that with the German Enigma Code being cracked - that's what defeated Rommel, not Monty! The problem was that the British could not sink ALL the African Supply Convoys, for fear of the Germans suspecting the code was cracked.

If Britain had gone under earlier, it is unlikely that the US would have had the Enigma code too - unless Bletchley managed to hide that the US had been given the Enigma secret, and the US were able to summon up a similar cracking effort - including the 'invention of automatic computing devices'. Also the Atlantic would mean that fewer of the German radio transmissions would be intercepted, giving the crackers much less to work on.

Of course the sort of 'resistance' problems, including the use of 'disruptive terrorists tactics' as used by the French, would have been a real pain for the Germans trying to exercise complete control over such a large area as continental Britain, there was Scotland, and god help us - Ireland! This would have chewed up large numbers of troops, which would have seriously affected the Russian Campaign (Hitler was a fool, not an idiot!), even if there had been competent military leadership at the very top - the refusal time and time again to allow troops to fall back and regroup caused huge German losses for no practical military gain, but only propaganda purposes - like some of Georgie Boy's brilliant leadership.

Without the 'floating base' of Britain, European Invasion would have been damn near impossible without some other nearby place, or some method of taking Britain as a staging post first - we might STILL be fighting the war, or now sprechen Deutsch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 08:04 PM

Interesting points, Foolestroupe. The cracking of both the German and Japanese military codes in the war was crucial to Allied victory. Funny that neither one of them caught on to what was happening... (Hitler eventually began to suspect it, but far too late. That's why he insisted on complete radio silence prior to the Ardennes offensive/Battle of the Bulge in Dec 44. They achieved surprise that time, but by then it was about 3 years too late to make any real difference in the outcome.)

I would suggest that it was not necessary for the Germans to physically occupy the British Isles in the '40s in order to technically win a war with England. They would merely have had to win big enough in the Med, North Africa, and the Middle East, and hurt the British Empire economy sufficiently to get the British to talk peace terms....not a surrender...just a cessation of Anglo-German hostilities and a negotiated agreement on what to do next in western Europe and the Med, etc. That, I believe, they could have arranged, because the UK is nothing if not 100% pragmatic when it comes to insoluble dilemmas such as wars that have become unwinnable. They negotiated an end to the American revolution, after all. They have pulled in their horns after other military fiascos that didn't go well.

Given the fact that Hitler envisioned the British as his natural allies, I think he would have been quite eager to negotiate a "live and let live" mutual arrangement and not invade at all...as long as it appeared feasible.

His next hope would then have been to get the British onside to help him fight Russia. And it's just possible he might have succeeded in that, specially if the British were offered some territorial gains out of it...say moving up from India into Afghanistan and southern Russia.

That would have realized Hitler's dream of Germans and Anglos running the world.

The British are practical people. They would have done first what was necessary to survive....then the next logical thing that might restore their strength and influence on the world scene as soon as possible. If that had meant working with Germany in the 40s, they would have done it, in my opinion. Maybe Churchill would not have, but his successor would have. Churchill would have gotten sacked in such a case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: NH Dave
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 11:36 PM

I recently saw a T-shirt that backs one of the previous points. It read, "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a military veteran.

   Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:18 AM

The Germans are still reading German. They lost.

The Japanese are also still reading Japanese, despite losing.

(this isn't because we're nice guys and the Germans and Japanese aren't...it's because culture is a very powerful thing, and it outlasts temporary storms and setbacks like lost wars)

The French continued speaking French, reading French, and writing French without a moment's hesitation during the entire German military occupation of France from 1940 to late '44. I recall no German iniative to alter that fact, and none could have achieved its purpose.

The French in Quebec are still speaking and reading French, despite having lost to English rule in the mid-1700's!

I think my point is made.

This cliche crap about us all reading and speaking German if our parents or grandparents had lost the war may sound good, but it's total and absolute BS in my opinion. That won't stop people from saying it for another fifty years, however...unless we have a Third World War. Then their minds will be occupied with some new monster to build mythology upon...but not the Germans this time, I don't think. Nope, someone else will have to be appointed as the official "most evil nation of all time" soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:40 AM

A point that was neglected in some post 'way up the thread, having to do with imagined German invasion of North America: during the war, German U-boats were active in the ST. Lawrence River, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, around Newfoundland, and all along the northeastern coast of the continent, sinking ships and occasionally putting men ashore. FWIW.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:08 AM

Absolutely, thurg. Submarines travel secretly, unseen (they hope), and they go as far as their range permits. Their submarines went up the St Lawrence, ours went as far as Tokyo Bay. They put a few people ashore for espionage and sabotage purposes. We did the same on their shores with commandos and spies here and there.

None of that in any way resembles an invasion, or the capability of mounting an invasion.

Seaborne invasions aren't clandestine landings of a few men at night. They are a full frontal assault by a massive amphibious force involving infantry, armour, major air cover and a very large fleet.

This the Germans could not do to North America. Not even vaguely possible. They didn't have a big enough navy to do it. They had no aircraft carriers to provide air support, and the USA was much too far away for the Luftwaffe to take part in any such operation. Nor did the Japanese have the strength to invade the West Coast. No chance. They would have needed to move at least half a million men across the entire Pacific to do it with any hope of success. Their incursions in the Aleutian Islands were a sideshow, mostly occuring as a side effect of the botched Midway operation. They had sent minor forces up to the Aleutians to supposedly mislead and misdirect American forces in regards to the main attack on Midway. They were unaware that the Americans had broken their code and knew they were going to Midway. When the Midway operation failed utterly, the Japanese hung on to a couple of little islands in the Aleutians, mostly just because they were already there. It was a useless piece of real estate, but they figured it might tie down some American forces for awhile to keep a Japanese garrison or two active there, and it did that.

The only major power that Germany might have been able to invade amphibiously was the UK...given that the Channel is only a few miles wide. Still, it would have been very tough, because the British Navy had the German Navy outnumbered by about 8 to 1 or something like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:33 AM

Germany was (with Britain) world leader in development of advanced flight (ie Jet aircraft) it was the undisputed leader in development of rocket artillery & was (at that time) the only country doing groundwork into the development of Nuclear Weapons.
As early as 1939 Hitler was openly dismissing the U.S.A. as "Half Judaized half Negrized" in his distorted world view that legitimated Genocide.
Rocket launched Nuclear attacks on American cities would have made invasion unnecessary.
Had Britain fallen this is almost certainly what would have happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:23 AM

Yes, I follow your reasoning on that, Purple Fox. I think, though, that Hitler's fantasies were generally a world apart from the strategic realities of the situation, and were highly unlikely to ever have come about...specially the scenario you suggest.

It's curious that although the Germans had made the first attempts in the direction of research that could have led to nuclear weapons, Hitler himself seems to have shown very little interest in the atomic project. Accordingly, it was not pressed with much emphasis or effectiveness. Their jet project, likeways, was delayed by a couple of years through foolish decisions....they thought the war would be over quite soon, so no need to push it, because the Me 109 was enough to win the air war by itself! (they expected England to "see reason" after the Fall of France, and negotiate a ceasefire in a few months...not surrender. They then expected to have a free hand to invade not England, but Russia.)

They had the V-2 rocket by late '44, a true ballistic missile. It was capable of hitting targets in southern England, but only with a conventional warhead. They might have developed a rocket capable of reaching the USA in a few more years...maybe...but Hitler's main effort was always in the East...Russia...and fighting the Russians was really all Germany could handle in that war, and there was no guarantee of victory there either. Russia alone could well exhaust the resources of the Reich.

The situation with atomic bombs in the early years was...you could only afford to make a few of them. The USA had exactly 2 ready to drop on Japan in August '45. That was all they had. Period. How many could the Germans have had ready, even supposing they had been able to conquer Russia and England and be free for such a huge national effort directed elsewhere? Could they have managed to make 2 or 3 bombs? Maybe. What chance that the USA would have had the same number of A-bombs by then or more? Germany is a small country, geographically speaking, the USA is enormous. The Americans had the long range bombers and the Navy to launch effective across-ocean attacks invasions and attacks. The Germans didn't.

I believe that your scenario is very unlikely to have been achievable at all...but if we assume it could have happened, I would see it this way: Germany could have damaged the USA with 2 or 3 A-bomb hits, yes. The USA could have effectively ruined most of central Germany with 2 or 3 in return.

So again, I see the Americans holding the winning hand....regardless.

You cannot win a war against the USA with 2 or 3 atomic bombs. The USA is simply too big for that. You could win a war against Hitler with 2 or 3. Just make sure one lands on Berlin.

Hitler spent a lot of time trying to convince the Germans and the rest of the world that they were supermen. Western paranoia about the incredible things the Nazis might have done "if" seems, ironically, to measure them by the same yardstick! ;-D

They were in no position to challenge the combined might of Russia, the UK, and America. With stunningly fine leadership and a whole lot of serious blundering by the Allies the Germans might have won WWII. I'll grant that. But with stunningly fine leadership they would never even have gotten into that idiotic war...

So it's a moot point, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:33 AM

To come back to the point, it is because the most readily recognisable types of behaviour as "American behaviour" are like Martin Gibson, or Bush.

Bush at least has the sense to recognise that he needs lawyers. I do look forward to the time that Gobson needs one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 03:43 AM

"Germany wouldn't have been able to do much more on the East coast, even if they'd made it all"

But they did make it. In January 1942 46 allied merchant ships had been sunk off the American coast, a total of 196,243 tons of ships and supplies.

American coastal towns were not subject to blackouts, and U-boat commanders would wait on the seabed during the day, and surface at night where they targeted the sihouettes of the passing ships, most of which were heading unescorted up the coast to join the north Atlantic convoys.

All in all, some 377 ships were sunk between January and May 1942 off the eastern seaboard of the US. So they did a bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 08:40 AM

Kendall has a number of stories about Americans he has encountered or, at one time' travelled with in the UK. They were what he termed 'ugly Americans', loud, seemingly uneducated in the ways of the world, totally insular in their outlook and treating their host country as purely being there for their convenience.

Unfortunately these are the type of tourists that stick out like a sore thumb and who are remembered long after they have returned to their own country. along with the actions of the American politicians over the past number of years and the spreading of the commercial culture - think Macdonalds and a lot of the film and television programmes - a good case could be made by those with no other exposure to the American culture for a dislike of all things American.

Mind you, the English, in particular, have a very poor reputation in some parts of Europe for their bad behaviour when on holiday and the Germans have a bad rep with a lot of Brits......

I think every one needs a cat to kick and the Yanks just happen to be in that position right now. Luckily, as a result of the Mudcat, most of us here know different, don't we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,robomatic
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 10:03 AM

Ah, there is way too much material in this thread, and it's all a bit jumbled up, each of us is putting forth his or her own interpretations mixed in with just enough inaccuracies to keep the thread going. . .
I think we dispensed with the idea that everyone hates America. I think there has been more than enough material to establish that there are a lot of good reasons for being very frustrated with America from all sides including the inside!

Just recently finished an interesting book, "The Poisonwood Bible" by Barbara Kingsolver. She starts with some very ill-prepared American missionaries to The Congo, then follows them through the Patrice Lumumba period, where heavy involvement by foreign business interests assisted in derailing an attempt at starting an African Democracy. Iranians of today have reason to be distrustful of the United States after an outright CIA (and British) subversion of their Democratic aspirations in the mid 50's.

Part of the American side of things was that we felt we were fighting a global World War against International Communism, which in fact we were. We didn't always play our hand very well, and we were ourselves subverted, by thinking we should support the French against Communism in Indochina, and the British against Communism in the Middle East.

I'd say the saving grace of Americans, besides the fact that we're so smart and good-looking, is the heavy amount of self-criticism we can give ourselves.

We are in a new situation now, we are the lone 'Superpower'. We have fewer excuses for our inaccuracies and excesses. What will change that situation is that the world has grown into a Superpower its own self. The internet has enabled the broad release of way more information than in fact exists. Due to enough large healthy, increasingly educated populations, there is plenty of young labor across the world.

Thanks in one way to George W. Bush (of whom I'm NOT a fan), a deliberate attempt is being made to counter some great evils in the world. Thanks in another way to 'W', the United States is expending so much largesse on unremunerative projects that its status as a World Superpower will definitely be diminished sooner rather than later.

So in an intersting way, we'll ALL get what we want at some level.

In the end, efficiency will be rewarded, and we will not necessarily have to learn Chinese, but we'll dance to their music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:19 AM

Everyone in the worlds hates America.   That is why millions of people each year risk their lives to come here illegally, while millions more come here legally.    Other than Little Hawk and Madonna (I dare any one else to put the two of them in the same sentence) I don't know anyone who has left America for another country.

So why do millions come here when they hate America?   Freedom, prosperity, liberty, opportunity, human rights, capitalism-just to name a few.

Sorry- but Canada has a giant inferiority complex on its sholder when it comes to America.   Thats not just my opinions.   Listen to the words of Canadian Folk Singers.   Tanglefoot does a song about American Radio and introduces it by saying that Canadians have an inferiority complex toward the USA and its America's fault.   The Arrogant Worms "We barely have an army" Marie Lynn Hammond "like the dollar we keep falling in Canadian Love".   

87% of Canadas exports are to the USA.   If that decreased, Canada economy would croak.   America needs Canada as well.   Right now we get 50% of Canada's natural gas and Canada is the USA's biggest supplier of Oil. There are huge oil deposits in the tar flats that we will purchase.   Therefore, we need to keep Canada around- inferiority complex and all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:37 AM

Reasons people hate America could be:

- they torture people
- "renditioning" of people from other countries, often illegally by the CIA (and with the help of some countries we could mention)
- they flout the Geneva Convention
- they hold people without trial and access to their families or lawyers
- they are too stupid to realise Saddam had sod all to do with 9/11 and they are being fed a big fat lie
- they don't seem to realise Iraqi civilians are as innocent as all the people killed on 9/11 are, and their families and friends hurt too
- they don't realise people are more important than profit
- they don't care about the environment
- they use too much petrol (which they don't pay enough for) and oil in their hummers and caddies
- they have weapons of mass destruction but seem to think nobody else should have them
- most of them are fat
- They are deeply disrespectful to the original inhabitants of the continent and even though they admit they lied and cheated to them, refuse to give them their land back (a problem with many nations run predominately by white people)
- they say they haate George Bush but still voted him back in
- They are letting the religious extremist right into power via the back door
- they love guns and violence (just look at their films), let everyone have one, then wonder why massacres like Columbine happen
- They invented Disney


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:47 AM

Reasons people love America could be:

- New York is the most incredible city in the world
- They have many fine musicians
- They have many fine dinosaur fossil locations
- They have made some of the most intelligent and ground-breaking TV ever (Twin Peaks, Northern Exposure but NOT 24 or Lost)
- They put the rovers on Mars
- Jewish comedians
- many non-Jewish comedians
- Paul Auster
- Incredible countryside
- good food (albeit in too big portions)
- Apple Computers
- Star Wars
- Their museums are fantastic
- Contrary to popular belief, they can make good real ale
- Tom Waits


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:59 AM

The reasons people "hate" Americans is because there seems to be a need around the world to be on one side or the other, and it is very chic to hate Americans. We now live in a polarized world and our opinions are formed by the media (as evidenced by the posts in this tread - most are nothing more than cut and pastes of other peoples voices.)

This "hate America' thing is nothing more than people trying to feel they are "in" and "hip" - peer pressure more than anything. Some people get a real thrill by standing on their soapbox and declaring what is wrong with this country and its people.

Wake the fuck up. The problems that you see today are not new. In the past we were always able to find some common ground and work to fix things, but today it is far easier to join one of the camps and just sit back and whine. It is time to turn off the Fox News, MSNBC, Pacifica, and NPR's of the world - or at least, spend some time checking out what others are saying - don't be so dependent on one source. As evidenced here in the thread, people have become set in their ways and let others do the thinking for them. Look at how many cliches have been dragged into this thread - evidence that many people have their heads in the wrong place.

People don't hate America, they are simply indoctrinated by the media and their peers and all have swallowed the Kool Aid. As soon as I see an original opinion posted here I will start to feel that there is hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:39 PM

There's a duty sometimes recommended to "Comfort the afflicted and afflict the compfortable".   And there's always a temptation to tease people with think skins.

Americans often tend to get seen as thin-skinned comfortable people. As xenophobia goes it's normally pretty mild when directed at Americans - real antagonisms tend to be directed at closer neighbours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,closet francophile
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:49 PM

Comme le vieux ennemi n'est-ce-pas?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:53 PM

Lots of good comments, stigweard... Just one point, though. You can't launch an invasion with U-Boats. ;-D

Larry K. - We Canadians love making fun of Canada. We always have. I think it's a very healthy sign in a country. I know all the songs you speak of, have seen them done live, and they are very good-humoured songs. They indicate, in fact, a love of Canada, with all its imperfections...just like you love a lazy old dog who smells bad when he gets wet and steals food off the kitchen counter.

The thing we most love to bitch about is the weather, of course. Who would not bitch about the weather in Canada? (well, I guess my friend Raptor wouldn't...he likes the cold and snow).

Our lack of military strength is not regretted much by most Canadians, because there are other things we'd much rather do with the money, like provide public health care. The only Canadians who are really bitter about it are those few (about 15%, I'd say) who wake up every morning and cry because we haven't been annexed by Uncle Sam yet and turned into the 51-60th states of Fortress Amerika. It is that contingency of fulminating paranoid nutcases that publishes the Toronto Sun, a newspaper that loves war, loves violence, and loves pictures of girls in tiny, tiny bikinis. Real classy guys, the Sun. The are the garbage heap of Canadian news.

It's fun making jokes about our military. I'm sure that many other smaller powers do the same thing. It's a grand tradition. I see no need to exchange it for the chest-beating insanity that drives great powers out to pillage and despoil their neighbours. You can have it.

Madonna and I are far from the only people to have willingly left the USA. Good God! There are many, many such people. You just need to adjust your blinders of perception so you can see a little wider field, that's all.

You mention "Freedom, prosperity, liberty, opportunity, human rights, capitalism" as reasons to come to the USA. Well, the freedoms and liberty are vanishing steadily, Larry, as the Bush administration legislates them quietly away. There are other places with more liberty and freedom than the USA. Canada is one of them. Millions of people also want to get into Canada. Why? For the same reasons you gave for wanting to get into the USA. Canada, however, does not share a long land border with Mexico...and it's a damned good thing! If we did, all of Latin American would be trying to get across it, and WE would have the USA's problem with millions of illegal immigrants.

Does it disturb you that I have lived in both Canada and the USA, and I like Canada a bit better in comparison? Tough. Get the doctor to give you some tranquilizers and accept the fact that there are some things in life you just can't change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:08 PM

"contingent" not "contingency"


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:22 PM

Sorry folks, when asked to come up with a plan for invading the UK in 1940, the conclusion of all three Staffs of the German Armed Forces plus the Combined General Staff was that it could not be done. Their best prediction was that they would possibly land the first wave who would then be cut off. Principal reason was because they had lost too much of their Navy during the invasion of Norway. Amphibious Operations take a great deal of build up and training, D-Day took four years and a lot of 'trial' runs.

As Little Hawk pointed out, British naval superiority in home waters meant that the UK could not be invaded, better command and control of our air defence meant that over the invasion area the Luftwaffe would not enjoy the air superiority they had had in Poland, Norway, Holland and in France. All German Plans relied on them capturing at least one secondary port on the south coast of England intact. The Allies found out how easy a task that was at Dieppe. The German Airforce was a Tactical Airforce, specifically equipped to support the Army, throughout the entire war they never had a Strategic Bomber Force, I don't believe that they ever had a single Strategic Bomber. The British, and latterly the Americans had them by the thousand. The Red Airforce was also by necessity developed as a tactical airforce to fight the Germans.

The "Second Happy Time" that stigweard refers to (January to May 1942) was countered by the Royal Navy 'lending' the US Navy experienced escort First Lieutenants. The counter-measures and tactics adopted was to impose a black-out and put a thin picket line of escorts off the coast a little further out to sea all hammering away on ASDIC. The German U-Boat crews had learned to have a damn sight more than a little respect for both RADAR and ASDIC, both killed U-Boats at night very effectively. All that had to be done was to keep them away during the hours of darkness, US air patrols kept the Merchant ships safe during the day.

Hate America, perish the thought, the free world will always be in your debt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:47 PM

Funny how well we usually agree on WWII, eh, teribus? ;-)

The Germans made one attempt at a strategic bomber, the Heinkel 177. It was hobbled by an insane 1938 design specification that it should be capable of dive-bombing! This was an asinine requirement to demand of a heavy bomber. It led to the airplane having to be strengthened structurally, which increased its weight, and to have four engines combined in tandem in only 2 engine nacelles, driving a huge four-bladed propellor (this reduced drag).

The result: WWII's most trouble-prone and unreliable large airplane. The He 177 tended to very frequently catch fire from engines overheating. More of them were lost to that cause than to any other cause. I believe they built about 1,000 of them. Most were used to bomb Russia, a few to bomb England, a few for anti-shipping strikes. They were interesting looking planes, but were anything but successful, and had little effect on the war except to waste Germany's resources in a futile effort.

Italy also had one heavy bomber, a Piaggio 4-engine plane, and a good one, but they didn't have enough of them to make any significant difference to the conflict in the Med. They used some to bomb Gibraltar on occasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Desdemona
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:54 PM

And that, unfortunately, is exactly the kind of swaggering, tobbaco-chewing, John Wayne, here-comes-the-cavalry-over-the-hill-at-the-last-possible-moment (ESPECIALLY true in WWII; ask my mum, who is English and was there) bluster that MAKES people hate us.

While I'm unwilling to posit that EVERYONE hates America (although who knows what might have happened in the name of "freedom" whilst I was running my errands...), I'd have to say that those who do just might feel that way because we make it so goddamned easy.

~D


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:16 PM

Heh! Yeah, nothing like self-congratulatory jingoism to stir up hatred, is there?

And then this stuff about "the Free World"...whatever the heck that is...

Was it a contribution to "freedom" when Iran's early attempts at establishing an elected democracy were crushed by Britain and American in the 50's and replaced with the Shah? Was it a contribution to "freedom" when Salvadore Allende's elected government was overthrown by a CIA-assisted military coupe?

"Freedom" is talked about a great deal by the USA, but seldom espoused in reality, because what the USA seeks is to control, not to free its subject populations wherever there are valuable strategic considerations. If control can be achieved through a cosmetically arranged "election", so be it. If control can be achieved through an invasion, so be it. If control can be achieved through death squads, dictators, and absolute tyrrany, so be it. It has nothing to do with freedom, it has only to do with control. Control of oil, control of commerce, control of markets, control of land and resources.

That's the empire game. Same as the previous empires. The British did it, the Russians did it, the Japanese did it, the Germans did it, the Austrians did it, the Spanish did it, the Italians did it, the Belgians did it, the French did it, and now the Americans are doing it (in concert with their allies, Israel and the UK).

It's Realpolitik. It's not about freedom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:21 PM

LarryK - I'm much relieved you feel the need to keep us Canadians around, although I'm a little concerned about what might happen when you no longer feel that need ... We love you, we love you; please don't bomb us!

Anyway - a salient point you neglected: Canada is the U.S.'s biggest trading partner - that's two-way trade ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:33 PM

A trade situation which is logically 100% predictable, given the geographic situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:41 AM

Stig, you are being sarcastic when setting out your reasons to love America, right?

But - having been an entertainment lawyer since the 70s, I have had to meet a lot of Americans - albeit from a certain set of sections of US society. I think I would have been unlikely to feel, as suggested below, that many Americans are self critical: quite the reverse. What is the general view?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 02:12 AM

99 is the new 100.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 02:27 AM

100 is the new 69


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Stu
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 03:17 AM

"Stig, you are being sarcastic when setting out your reasons to love America, right?"

. . . er, no I wasn't actually. But I can see why you might think I was.

Truth is, the Americans think there is only their way to live life, and that's it. If you don't believe in capitalism, moneterianism, materialism, Christianity and militarianism then you are wrong and need to be 'corrected'.

This arrogance, coupled with an extremely insular way of looking at the world is what rubs people up the wrong way. The fact your country is run by people who have enshrined these principles as being central to the 'American Dream', the way of life all Americans aspire to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 03:44 AM

Stig - You're right when you say, "The fact your country is run by people who have enshrined these principles as being central to the 'American Dream', the way of life all Americans aspire to."

But they also think that is the way of life that all people, everywhere, aspire too and if you don't, they will convince you that you do at the barrel of a gun.

Whats to like about a trigger-happy bully?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 11:18 AM

Little Hawk- I am delighted that you choose to live in Canada.   I think that everyone should choose to live in the country of their choice.   I have a number of relatives that live in Montreal and Toronto and love living in Canada.   (although their son has moved to the USA)

There are many people who immigrate to Canada.   It is a small tiny minisule fraction of the people who immigrate to the USA.   People in India don't go to Canada to start their computer company.   They go to the USA.   There was an srticle on the brain drain in Canada because many of the talented Candians chose to leave Canada and move to the USA where there is better economic oppportunity.   Only hollywood keeps threatening to move to Canada, but none of them ever do.    If only they would keep their word.

I think its only fair to "tweak" Canada.   I have been to 30 Canadian folk festivals and at every single one of them, someone has tweaked the USA from the stage.   I have been to 100 USA folk festivals, and I can't remember a single time when someone from the stage mentioned Canada.   The closest was when James Keelaghan played a Folk Project festival in NJ and said he was going to sing about canadian history and someone yelled out "who cares".   he got very angry, but the comment was more in jest than a comment about Canada.    I contend that 99% of americans couldn't name the canadian Prime Misister and that more Canadians know the US president than know the Canadian Prime Misister.

My wife and I are friendly with a number of Canadian performers.   We are hosting a house concert for the Sirens (from London Ontario) on June 18 at our house followed by a round robin music session.   If anyone is in Southeast Michigan on that day, please join us. (We have to keep Canada around until June 18 if for no other reason)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: NH Dave
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 12:01 PM

Stig, many of your comments are true, but while previously we only produced gas guzzling road giants, almost all of the American cars have shrunk by about a quarter of their previous size, and gas mileage is steadily rising. The exceptions are the Hummers and similar Sports Utility Vehicles. You mentioned that "- They have many fine dinosaur fossil locations" and I have to note that unfortunately one of the largest is our governing legislators in Washington, DC.

Others suggested that Germany habd't any strategic bombers, and one bomber was suggested in rebuttal. I would suggest that the Condor was a strategic bomber, although it lacked range to be effective as a trans-Atlantic bomber. Germany did develope the submarine tender or milk cow concept, where subs operating at the limits of their unfueled range were topped up and reloaded with weaponry by these special purpose cargo ships. This concept was further refined by technicians working under the direction of General LeMay who developed the mid-air refueling that had been toyed with in the thirties, using former bombers and cargo aircraft fitted with "flying booms", refueling "hoss" that could be guided into the midair refueling ports of bombers to increase their range. Today all fighters and bombers and some cargo planes and helicopters are equipped with air to air refueling capabilities of one sort or another. We can launch bombers or fighters from the middle of the US and fly them non-stop to almost any point in the world without landing to refuel. Most of our special mission helicopters are equipped with refueling probes to increase their range, or linger time over a position.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 01:43 PM

I don't think I'd rate the Focke-Wulf Condor as a true strategic bomber, Dave, although it's debatable. The Condor was converted from a civil airliner to a bomber. It carried a rather small bomb load, but enough to sink merchant ships in the Atlantic with. It was quite vulnerable to fighters and AA guns, not being well armoured, and being full of easily ignitable fuel tanks in its fuselage.

The Condors were very successful for awhile, because they found a window of opportunity...their long range permitted them to attack Allied shipping far out at sea where the Allies could provide no fighter cover. That worked great until the Allies built a whole lot of small escort carriers and began providing air cover to the convoys. This rapidly reduced the effectiveness of both the Condor, and its partners, the U-boats.

Anyway, whether or not the Germans had strategic bombers (they did have a few)...they never had a large enough or effective enough force of them to be able to do strategic bombing on a scale that could seriously damage the Allies.

Only the British and Americans had such a strategic bomber force in that war.

The Japanese, by the way, also attempted to build strategic bombers. One of them made it to the prototype stage, but only four of these planes were built before the project was cancelled in June 1945. It was a good plane, somewhat superior to an American B-17 bomber but not as advanced in concept as the larger B-29s that ravaged Japan late in the war.   Here's a link:

Nakajima G8N Renzan "Rita"


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 01:44 PM

"Why does everyone hate America"

Everyone doesn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 02:02 PM

To a certain extent, the Luftwaffe didn't need true long range bombers, when so much of Britian was within easy range of bases along the coast of France and Holland. A high proportion of our heavy industry, docks and population centres were within the range of smaller aircraft.

BTW, isn't it odd when a thread splits into talking about two different subjects at the same time?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 02:21 PM

Yeah. Maybe we need a new thread.

There was an Italian military theorist in the 20's who proposed that fleets of heavy bombers would become the decisive weapon of future wars. He was not 100% right about that, but the Americans and British decided to go that way, and it proved to be a good decision on their part. The Germans decided to go the way of a short range tactical airforce, and it worked very well until they were faced with bombing England into submission. They didn't really have the right planes for that job. They could also have well used a large strategic bomber force to hit the Russian industries deep in the interior of Russia.

Another mistake the Germans made was they fell too much in love with the concept of dive-bombing. While it resulted in superb tactical effectiveness with the Stuka and the Ju 88, it thoroughly screwed up the development of their one true heavy bomber, the He 177, and resulted in that plane becoming a disastrous failure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Shields Folk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 05:03 PM

The Germans definitely had the nicest uniforms though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 06:12 PM

No question about that, Shields. Tough, eh? I have to tell you that British WWII helmets and uniforms looked totally dorky, and American uniforms weren't much better. They really needed to give more thought to stuff like that. I mean, hell, the British used to have great looking uniforms in the days of the "thin red line", and so did the Americans back then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Shields Folk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 06:19 PM

I think the British have redeemed themselves a bit. Desert Storm American uniforms, what were they about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 07:09 PM

If you want to look "smart", I suppose the Germans were pretty fancy. But that's a very big "if"...

....................................
That incident Larry K mentioned, about the "jest" illustrates one reason why there's a fair amount of disdain directed at America around the world. The inward looking parochialism you get with big countries (and ssome small countries that like to think they are big, such as England), which leads to people knowing sod all about the world outside their borders tends to get up the noses of people living outside those borders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Shields Folk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 07:19 PM

Psychology of a soldier, Esprit de Corps.
A veteran of Naval Party 8901 told me that when the Argentinean commandos invaded Port Stanley they looked professional and they took them seriously.
"If you want to look "smart"," perhaps not smart but professional.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 07:44 PM

Richard Bridge:

You have no idea how close I came to bringing a civil suit against the Gib. I had every legal requirement and incontravertible evidence to win the suit. In the final analysis it would not have been in the spirit of mudcat and could have caused more rancor than good.

Donald Arthur Hakman


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 08:34 PM

LarryK sez: I think its only fair to "tweak" Canada.

I sez: Agree completely. From time to time, Canadians need the mickey taken out of their self-righteousness vis-a-vis Americans. And, conversely, need the foolishness of their inferiority-complex pointed out.

That's speaking as a Canadian, folks. The comments don't apply to all of us, of course; but look at what makes the news.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,me
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 08:43 PM

As for German WWII uniforms - even as a kid I thought they were over the top - the kind of thing that would raise a snigger in our neighbourhood - does the word "pretentious" not come to mind? Not the helmets of course; they were just plain goofy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 10:30 PM

You gotta be kidding. That is the best looking helmet in the history of modern warfare. The new American ones are kind of similar...good head and side protection.

I fully agree that it's okay to tweak Canada now and then. Matter of fact, it's fun. We can take it, eh? ;-D

We still have more beaver than you do, though. Don't forget that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST,not me but hey you
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 10:42 PM

Best uniforms where the ones worn by the VietCong. They proved uniforms are meaningless and that uniforms represent the arrogance and pomposity of a suppressing force. Passion of a cause is what it is all about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 11:20 PM

Ahhh...now yer talkin'! I couldn't agree more. Well said, Guest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why does everyone hate America
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 11:23 PM

"the spirit of Mudcat................"

LOL!!


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