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Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi

DigiTrad:
CARRICKFERGUS


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skarpi 27 Mar 06 - 03:59 PM
Geoff the Duck 27 Mar 06 - 04:07 PM
MMario 27 Mar 06 - 04:19 PM
skarpi 27 Mar 06 - 04:20 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Mar 06 - 02:22 AM
MartinRyan 28 Mar 06 - 04:13 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Mar 06 - 06:45 AM
MartinRyan 28 Mar 06 - 07:03 AM
MartinRyan 28 Mar 06 - 07:13 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Mar 06 - 08:43 AM
MartinRyan 28 Mar 06 - 08:54 AM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: skarpi
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 03:59 PM

Halló all, we in my band are going to have a concert with only
slow Irish or and celtics songs, among this songs is
Carrickfergus and i would like to have the lyric as original
as possible, I am told by Emma that in the last line in last
verse is should be " come Marbh a storín and lay me down "
insted of " come all your young lads and lay me down "

Does anyone have this lyric from the old time ?
Maybe Emma has along with others , we have many more songs
we are gonna take , I may put the programm here on Mudcat in time .

All the best Skarpi Iceland.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skar
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:07 PM

An earlier discussion took us to this point MudThread
.
Quack!
Geoff.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: MMario
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:19 PM

Skarpi - see previous thread - especially Phillipa's post of 10 Jan 00 at 8:12 pm

There is a *tin* of information there.

link fixed - link-faerie


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skar
From: skarpi
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 04:20 PM

OH boy, three verses, five verses???? in English or caelic?
hmmmmmmmmmmm

all the best Skarpi Iceland.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:22 AM

It is rather disappointing not to have any translation into English of the (likely) original Irish verses. It seems we have been able to discard as neologisms any English language verses other than the usual two "I wish I was..." and "Now in Kilkenny...". If the sense of the earlier Irish verses was available the millions of us here who fancy our creative abilities could try to construct a reasonably credible more complete English language version.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 04:13 AM

Richard

The problem is that we don't have any original Irish verses! The earliest version of the song we know about is "The Young Sick Lover" - which is macaronic.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 06:45 AM

Let me re-phrase

The non-English verses from the macaronic version purport to represent Irish words.

Some attempts were being made to render the Irish words. We do not know the progress made, yet.

Once the Irish version was reclaimed from the phonetic attempted rendering, then it could no doubt be translated from the Irish thus recovered, into English.

Then we would have words that pre-dated the English verses that we have, and we could try to turn them into song words.

So, what progress?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 07:03 AM

That we CAN do! O'Muirithe's (Irish language)book on macaronics has a version with the phonetics rendered in modern Irish. It may take a while to transcribe - but I'll do it when I get a chance.

Regards

p.s. Not sure of the implication of "words that pre-dated the English verses that we have"... Do we have any evidence that there was a monoglot original?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 07:13 AM

No need - they're given int Origins thread.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 08:43 AM

I had re-read the "origins" thread before I posted and have again done so now, and I am not sure that I see what you see Martin. It will take a bit of fiddling around for me to cut and paste what I find there so give me a few minutes (then back to work!)


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE SICK YOUNG LOVER
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 08:54 AM

Philippa posted, as from O'Muirithe:


THE SICK YOUNG LOVER

Do bhí bean uasal seal dá lua liom
Is do chuir sí suas dom, fairíor géar
Is do ghabhas le stúrach na mallaí móra,
Is gur dhein sí cuach díom i lár an tsaoil.
Dá bhfaighinnse a ceann siúd faor áirse an teampaill
Is go mbeinnse arís ar m'ábhar féin
Is anois ó táim tinn lag is ná fuil fáil ar leigheas agam,
Is gan ach mo mhuintir ag gol im' dhéidh.



I wish I had you in Carrickfergus
Agus ní fada ón áit sin baile cuain,
And I'd sail over the deepest water
I ndiaidh mo ghrá geal is í ag éalu uaim.
The seas are deep and I can't swim over,
No, nor neither do I have wings to fly,
I wish I met with some handsome boatman
To ferry over my love and I.



Is tá a fhios ag Éire nach mar gheall ar aon rud
do dhearbhaíos féin a dhéanamh di,
Ach mar gheall ar mo chéad searc do dhein mé thréigint
Agus í ag déanamh spré suas dá clann iníon.
Tá an fuacht is an teas ag gabháil le chéile,
Is an tart ní féidir liom féin a chloí,
Is go bhfuil an leabhar orm ó Shamhain go February,
Is ná beidh mé réidh leis go Féile Mhichíl.



And it's in Kilkenny it is supposed
Where the marble stones are as black as ink,
With gold and silver I will support you,
And I will sing no more 'till I get a drink;
I am always drunk and seldom sober,
Constantly roving from town to town;
Now when I'm dead and my days are over,
Come, Molly, a stór, and lay me down.



Is do shiúlas Éire is an Mhumhain le chéile,
Agus ar fad síos go dtí an áit go mbíodh mo ghrá,
Agus ní bhfuaireas aoinne ar feadh an mhéid sin
Do dhéin mé pleasin' mar Molly Bhán.
Mná na hÉireann is a dteacht le chéile,
Cé gur treason dom a lua ná a rá,
Is go b'é deir gach aoinne do chlois na scéalta
Go dtug sí an sway léi ó chontae an Chláir.



I travelled this nation in desperation,
Through Flanders and all Germany;
And in my raging and serenading
My Molly's equals I could not see.
Her golden hair and her limbs complete,
Her skin exceeds the lily fair;
It is what grieves me, that this fair one
Should take the sway from the County Clare.



Is táim tinn breoite is mo chos dheas leointe
O ghaibh an ógbhean tharam isteach,
Is gur iarras póigín uair nó dhó uirthí,
Is go bhfaighinn féin fóirthint ach suí lena hais.
'Ochón mo chrá, is mo chumha go dóite,
Gan an oíche romham go mbeinn pósta leat';
'Nílim fós is ní bheidh go deo leat,
For I choose to go with my own sweetheart'.



verse 6 isn't a translation of verse 5, but it's in a similar vein.


The reference to Verse 6 seems confusing. It appears to be a poetic rendering in English only of the previous verse whereas the other verses are quite independent.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 09:14 AM

I hope this makes it easier to follow but here (cut and paste I regret to say) is what I take to be the relevant parts of the origins thread. Oh hell the line breaks have gone: - oops and time to fiddle about. Sorry, this is very long but it illustrates that we do not have (I think) even the sense in English of the Irish verses, so the combined skills of the Mudcat cannot try to resurrect a more complete English language version (bereft, I hope, of some of the more horrid recent English versions - eg as recorded by CHarlotte CHurch)




Subject: Lyr Add: CARRICKFERGUS (Irish+English)
From: Philippa - PM Date: 10 Jan 00 - 08:12 PM

I have words to an Irish language/ macaronic Carrickfergus. Can we get further information O Riada's input to the song as recorded by Seán O Sé? I've long imagined that there was an older Irish song and that somewhere along the line (well before O Riada) someone who had heard a version of Waly, Waly / the Water is Wide grafted in English verses to the tune. John M: our mutual friend Annraoi has a copy of O Muirthile, "An t-Amhrán Macarónach". It probably gives a date for its source of the text. And like O'Toole, O Muirthile himself could be contacted in case he has information.Incidentally, the photocopy I was given of the macaronic text is titled "Carrickfergus" (not "Do bhí...") and the title is followed by a question in brackets, "Cé a chum?", meaning "who composed it?" This version is barely macaronic; it only has English in the last of the 4 verses. It's a love song, but the lyrics don't mention Carrickfergus or Kilkenny or a boatman. Places mentioned include Munster, County Clare and Howth (Beann Éadair)

Do bhí bean uasal seal dá lua liom, 's
chuir sí suas díom fóraíl ghéar;
Do ghabhas lastuas di sna bailte móra
Mar go dtug sí svae ['sway'] léi os comhair an tsaoil.
Ach dá bhfaighinnse a ceann siúd faoi áirsí an teampaill,
Do bheinn gan amhras ar m'ábhar féin;
Ach anois táim tinn lag 's gan fáil ar leigheas agam.
Is go mbeidh mo mhuintir ag gol im' dhéidh.
Do shiúlaíos Éire is an Mhumhain le chéile
Is cois Beann Éadair ag lorg mná,
Is ní fhaca éinne ar fhaid an méid sin
Do dhein mé phléasáil ach mo Mhalaí Bán.
Mná na hÉireann do chur le chéile
Is nach mór an t-aeraíocht dom san a rá;
'Sé dúirt gach éinne a chonaic mo spéirbhean.
Go dtug sí svae léi ó Chontae an Chláir.
Tá an ghrian ag imeacht is tá an teas ag tréigean
Is an tart ní féidir liom féin do chlaoi,
Mar go bhfuil an geall orm ó Shamhain go Féabhraí
Is ní bheidh sí reidh liom go dtí Lá Mhichíl;
Ach geallaim féin daoibh nach mar gheall ar an méid sin
A d'iontaíos féinig i gcoinne na dí,
Ach mar gheall ar mo chéad searc a dhein mé thréigean -
Chuaigh sí ag bailiú déirce dá clann iníon.
Agus táim tinn breoite is mo chos dheas leonta
O ghabh an ógbhean úd tharam isteach;
D'iarras póigín uair nó dhó uirthi,
For I'd long to roam with my own sweetheart.
For I'm tired of drinking and I'm seldom sober!
I'm a constant rover from town to town!
But now I'm dying and my days are over -
Come Malaí, a stóirín, and lay me down!

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of CarrickfergusFrom: Philippa - PM Date: 14 Jan 00 - 03:01 PM
No, "Do bhí bean uasal" isn't published in Ó Muirthile, "An t-Amhrán Macarónach". Which leaves us back to questioning someone like Seán Ó Sé, Rachel Ní Riada, Peadar Ó Riada, Tomás Ó Canainn (he wrote a book about Sean Ó Riada) about the Irish language song.OIn one of his books, piper (engineer, singer, poet, author) Tomás Ó Canainn mentions a 1790 publication of a tune called "Carrickfergus" but the air is that of "Haste to the Wedding", not the song we know of as Carrickfergus or Do bhí bean uasal.(see John Moulden's message on this aspect of the topic)



Subject: Lyr Add: BHI BEAN UASAL
From: Date: 14 Jan 00 - 06:38 PM H

ere is another macaronic version; this is the one sung by Seán O Sé on the recording "O Riada sa Gaiety". My source is a booklet, Amhrénleabhar Ogra Éireann, published in Dublin by Folens (8th edition, 1971)

BHI BEAN UASAL
Do bhí bean uasal seal dá lua liom,
's do chuir sí suas díomsa faraoir géar;
Do ghabhas lastuas di sna bailte móraAch
d'fhag sí ann é os comhair an tsaoil.
Dá bhfaighinnse a ceannsa faoi áirsí an teampaill,
Do bheinnse gan amhras im 'ábhar féin;
Ach anois táim tinn lag is gan fáil ar leigheas agam.
Is beidh mo mhuintir ag gol im' dhéidh.

I wish I had you in Carrickfergus
Ní fada ón áit sin go
Baile Uí Chuain
Sailing over the deep blue waters
I ndiaidh mo ghrá geal is í ag ealó uaim.

For the seas are deep, love, and I can't swim over
And neither have I wings to fly,
I wish I met with a handy boatman,
Who would ferry over my love and I.
Tá an fuacht ag teacht is an teas ag tréigint
An tart ní féidir liom féin é do chlaoi,
Is go bhfuil an leabhar orm ó Shamhain go Fébur
Is ní bheidh sí reidh liom go Féil' Mhichíl;

I'm seldom drunk though I'm never sober!
A handsome rover from town to town.
But now I am dead and my days are over -
Come Molly, a stóirín, now lay me down!

Can some Mudcat correspondent look up and find out if it is the same tune as the song? I found a reference to the tune "Do bhí bean uasal" in the Bunting collection on line in the 1855 writings of Dr George Petrie , who himself is well-known for his poetic translations from Irish to English. But I gather from John Moulden that this isn't the same air as the song we are discussing.




Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Annraoi - PM Date: 15 Jan 00 - 08:10 AM
Phillipa and John, I'm back. This may - or may not - be a good thing. I've been away from Mudcat for some considerable time, but dip-sticking brought me to this thread. Phillipa is quite right, I do have a copy of ó muirthile's book and it does contain a version of "Do Bhí Bean Uasal / Carrickfergus" but he calls it "The Young Sick Lover." The text seems to be a fairly complete one having 7 eight-lined stanzas. It seems to me to be a mixture of two songs, one Irish and one English. The Irish verses contain the typical internal rhyme patterns widely used in "amhrán" poetry dating from the C17 onwards and reaching its highest form in the C18. The English verses show an effort to incorporate these patterns but in a halting and inconsistant manner. Moreover, the "Handsome boatman" is too obviously the "Water of Tyne". Also, taking the Irish alternate verses 1, 3, 5, and 7, they make a unified song of a cuckolded young man. The English interpolations - and the more I think, the more I'm convinced that that is what they are - break up this unity and may show a society in a period of linguistic change and coming increasingly under the influence of English songs. Indeed one of the English verses is a paraphrase rather than a translation of the preceding Irish verse. O Muirthile gives as his primary source a broadsheet in Cambridge dating from the first half of the C19,. Thus the age of the song is pushed back by a full 120 years at least from its modern re-emergence in the 1960's. Among his other sources he gives another in Cambridge, one in the British Library, The version published in "Irisleabhar na Gaedhilge" March 1905 (already mentioned by John Moulden) and in "an Lóchrann" April, 1909. I hope that this is of some interest. Annraoi


Subject: Lyr Add: THE YOUNG SICK LOVER
From: John Moulden - PM Date: 16 Jan 00 - 08:13 PM
OK, you may all come round and see my red face - something I knew and had totally forgotten - and in consequence a lot of what I have been saying has had less foundation than it seemed. However, it does prove the worth of a forum such as this, almost invariably conducted in an atmosphere of respect and mutual exploration; each contributing and jogging hunches, aiding memory and combining clues. Henry is responsible for my red face - he mentioned "THE YOUNG SICK LOVER" and it nagged me - a ballad sheet printed by Haly of Cork called "The young sick lover" - it's been a day long search but I find that I have a xerox of that very sheet, copied from the National Library of Ireland where it is filed in a portfolio by the key-word "Young" and my copy of it bears a note that it is largely Carrickfergus - I must be more systematic; I must be more systematic; I must be .... It begins phonetically :

De vee ban osul, shol da lough lum
Es de chur, she souse dum forer gair,[six more lines]

The second stanza is:
I wish I had you in Carrickfergus.
Agus ne fadde, o en nat shoon balle coun,
And I'll sail over the deepest water,
En naugh ne gra ga, agus ehe gallouh oum
The seas are deep, and I can't swim over,
No nor neither have I wings to fly,
I wish I met with some handsome boatman,
To ferry over my love and I.

[another stanza of 'phonetic' Irish]

And its Kilkenny it is supposed,
Where the marble stones are as black as ink;
With gold and silver I will support you,
But I'll sing no more 'till I get a drink;
I am always drunk, and seldom sober,
Constantly roving from town to town;
Now when I'm dead, and my days are over,
Come Molly asthore and lay me down.

[Irish stanza]

I've travelled this nation in desperation,
Through Flanders and all Germany,
And in my ranging and seranading,
My Molly's equals I could not see,
Her golden hair, and her limbs complete,
Her skin exceeds the lily fair;
It is what grieves me, that this fair one
Should take the sway from the County Clare.
[Final Irish stanza] (7 in all)

It thus appears that any criticism I may have levelled at Seán O Sé, Dominic Behan or Peter O'Toole was unjustified and as Henry says, given that Haly of Cork was printing around 1830 we have (with a certain amount of hindrance from me) successfully established a much firmer provenance for both Carrickfergus and the Macaronic. There are still questions - are Carrickfergus and Do bhí bean uasal really linked - do any of the macaronics bear clear relationship to one another - this is a question for Henry who is studying the matter. I'll send you a copy of the sheet. The ones at Cambridge are not in either Bradshaw or Madden but among the series of volumes with press-marks SEL.2.93 to SEL.2.101 which are indexed in four card index drawers at the Rare Books Department. It would be worth getting them to look out the one printed by Troy of Limerick - differences are probable and will be revealing. The text above begins to clear up the difficulty one contributor had in understanding the Kilkenny marble stones. I'll confirm Haly's dates when I can get to a copy of the Bradshaw Index I cited above. Sorry to be slow.



Subject: Lyr Add: THE SICK YOUNG LOVER
From: GUEST,an effusive Philippa - PM
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 08:28 PM I am as red-faced as John. I was fairly sure I'd seen "Do bhí bean uasal" in An t-Amhrán Macarónach, but after a quick glance at the titles list of a library copy, I returned to Mudcat and said that the song wasn't there. Of course, I didn't recognise the title "The Sick Young Lover". And I'm the first one who gave the wrong surname for the book's author. I was writing on the spot, from memory. It's rather like confusing "Robinson" and "Robertson". There is a contemporary Irish author named Liam O Muirthile.And I also muddled my words when asking about the air in Bunting's collection. I know that the two bilingual versions I posted are both sung to the same air as the English language "Carrickfergus", but I was asking what is the tune called "Do Bhí Bean Uasal" in the Bunting collection.I've been back to the library to copy the lyrics of "The Sick Young Lover" from O Muirithe. As Annraoi says, he gives the original spelling of the ballad sheet in the appendix and gives a transliteration (if this is quite the right term!?) to Irish Gaelic spelling in the main text. It would appear that the sheet John Moulden has is the same text as given in O Muirithe. I notice only a few spelling differences and these could be typos, or else different readings of unclear words on the ballad sheet. Verse 1) Moulden: "forer", O Muirithe: "foreer" Irish: faraor,faraoir (woe) Verse 2) Moulden: "gra ga", O Muirithe: "gra gal", Irish: grá geal (bright love) Verse 6)Moulden: "sway", O Muirithe: "swag" (In this case I'd opt for John's version. Notice the loan word "svae" used in the first verse of the first lyrics I contributed. Some time ago, Annraoi had to explain the expression to me; as I understand it means to come out the best among the competition. In an Irish verse of the broadsheet as given in the appendix, the spelling is rendered "swaugh". In both verses in the main text, it's "sway".At Alison's request, here is the standard Irish as given by O Muirithe:

THE SICK YOUNG LOVER
Do bhí bean uasal seal dá lua liom
Is do chuir sí suas dom, fairíor géar
Is do ghabhas le stúrach na mallaí móra,
Is gur dhein sí cuach díom i lár an tsaoil.
Dá bhfaighinnse a ceann siúd faor áirse an teampaill
Is go mbeinnse arís ar m'ábhar féin
Is anois ó táim tinn lag is ná fuil fáil ar leigheas agam,
Is gan ach mo mhuintir ag gol im' dhéidh.
I wish I had you in Carrickfergus
Agus ní fada ón áit sin baile cuain,
And I'd sail over the deepest water
I ndiaidh mo ghrá geal is í ag éalu uaim.
The seas are deep and I can't swim over,
No, nor neither do I have wings to fly,
I wish I met with some handsome boatman
To ferry over my love and I.
Is tá a fhios ag Éire nach mar gheall ar aon ruddo dhear
bhaíos féin a dhéanamh di,
Ach mar gheall ar mo chéad searc do dhein mé thréigint
Agus í ag déanamh spré suas dá clann iníon.
Tá an fuacht is an teas ag gabháil le chéile,
Is an tart ní féidir liom féin a chloí,
Is go bhfuil an leabhar orm ó Shamhain go February,
Is ná beidh mé réidh leis go Féile Mhichíl.
And it's in Kilkenny it is supposed
Where the marble stones are as black as ink,
With gold and silver I will support you,
And I will sing no more 'till I get a drink;
I am always drunk and seldom sober,
Constantly roving from town to town;
Now when I'm dead and my days are over,C
ome, Molly, a stór, and lay me down.
Is do shiúlas Éire is an Mhumhain le chéile,
Agus ar fad síos go dtí an áit go mbíodh mo ghrá,
Agus ní bhfuaireas aoinne ar feadh an mhéid sin
Do dhéin mé pleasin' mar Molly Bhán.
Mná na hÉireann is a dteacht le chéile,
Cé gur treason dom a lua ná a rá,
Is go b'é deir gach aoinne do chlois na scéalta
Go dtug sí an sway léi ó chontae an Chláir.
I travelled this nation in desperation,
Through Flanders and all Germany;
And in my raging and serenading
My Molly's equals I could not see.
Her golden hair and her limbs complete,
Her skin exceeds the lily fair;
It is what grieves me, that this fair one
Should take the sway from the County Clare.
Is táim tinn breoite is mo chos dheas leointe
O ghaibh an ógbhean tharam isteach,
Is gur iarras póigín uair nó dhó uirthí,
Is go bhfaighinn féin fóirthint ach suí lena hais.
'Ochón mo chrá, is mo chumha go dóite,
Gan an oíche romham go mbeinn pósta leat';
'Nílim fós is ní bheidh go deo leat,
For I choose to go with my own sweetheart'.

verse 6 isn't a translation of verse 5, but it's in a similar vein.A Néill, ar bhain mé an dúshlán agus an spórt uait? Well, you can still entertain yourself comparing the three versions of Do Bhí Bean Uasal on this thread. And is there any reason to use the spelling 'déidh' in one verse and 'diaidh' in another?

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden - PM Date: 17 Jan 00 - 05:23 AM

Two things - first, to answer George - there are seven stanzas - four of which are Irish and three English; the Irish is given, not in conventional Irish spelling or the Irish alphabet but in a phonetic form using Roman letters and employing (mostly) the phonetic values of English spelling. Henry expresses it well above. This brings me to my second point, a query. Henry and Philippa refer to the author of An tAmhrán Macarónach as O Muirthile. My copy of "A short bibliography of Irish folk song" gives the author of this book as Diarmaid O Muirithe and credits him with the editorship of a book on "The Wexford Carols" - my copy of that book says it's by Diarmaid O Muirithe. He has also recently compiled a book on the Folklore of Wexford but nowhere is he other than O Muirithe. Is he confused or am I? I omitted to say that the last line of the final stanza is not in Irish but English: For I choose to go with my own sweet-heart.




Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: Neil Comer - PM Date: 17 Jan 00 - 12:05 PM
I probably shouldn't make my way back to this thread at this stage, but the phonetic Irish may shed some light on Ballgrand/Ballycran. The lines seem to read- Agus ní fada ón áit sin Baile Ciúin/Cuain ( and not far from that place 'Quiet/Harbour Town. Agus ne fadde, o en nat shoon balle coun, John, Could you send me the other Phonetic Verse that you mentioned, and i'll try to decipher it

Subject: RE: Help: Origins of Carrickfergus
From: GUEST Date: 02 Aug 02 - 09:58 AM
And ""na bailtí m&#ra" should read "na bailtí móra" I must have forgotten to type 243 after &# (using the type of code that seems least likely to be corrupted)In the second part of the 19th century [The Petrie Collection of Ancient Music of Ireland, 2 vols, Dublin University Press 1855-82], George Petrie wrote (as has been summarised in a previous message)"Of the words now sung to this air in the Munster counties, Mr [PW] Joyce has also given me a copy, as taken down by himself; but it presents such an incongruous piece of patchwork, half Irish, half English, collected, apparently, from recollections of various songs, that of the Irish portion a single stanza is as much as I can venture to select from it. This stanza, as Mr Curry acquaints me, belongs to the old Irish song which has given name to the melody, and which, though now rendered worthless by corruptions, was one of no ordinary interest and merit."(I think that means he thought the original was of especial interest) Here is the "single stanza" (with old spelling) and Petrie's translation of it:

'Bí bean óg uasal, Seal dá luadh liom,
'S do chuir sí suas dhamh, Céd fáraoir gér;
Is tá ghábhar le stuaire
A m-bailtibh muara,
'S gur dhein sí cuag dhíom,
Ar lár an t-saoghail.
Dá bh-faghainn-si a cenn rúd
Fé lia 'san teampull,
'S go mbeinn arís seal
Ar m'ádhbhar féin, Do shiúbhalfainn gleannta
'Gus beanna reamhar chocGo bh-faghainn mo shean-shearc
Arís dhom' réir.

There was a young gentlewoman
And I, once talked of;
But she rejected me
To my sharp grief;
And then I took up with
A city dasher,
Who made a jackdaw of me
Before the world.
But could I get her head
Beneath the gravestone,
And that I once more
Were my own free self,
I would traverse valleys
And rough-topped mountains
To seek again more favour
From my old true love.


Petrie didn't have a high opinion of the English-language verses: "Amongst the doggrel English verses sung to this air, as taken down by Mr. Joyce, there is a stanza which I am tempted to quote as an amusing example of the characteristic expression for tender sentiment, mixed with discordant levity and incongruity of thought, which are so often found in the ordinary Irish peasant love-songs, composed in the English language. Such incongruity, however, should, at least to some extent, be ascribed to the corruptions incident to verses having only a decaying traditional existence amongst a class of people still almost illiterate.

'Kilkenny town it is well supported,
Where marble stones are as black as ink;
With gold and silver I will support you, -
I'll sing no more till I get some drink!
I'm always drinking, and seldom sober;
I'm constant roving from town to town:
Oh, when I'm dead, and my days are over,
Come, Molly storeen, and lay me down.'

"It seems sufficiently apparent that the above stanza was not composed in one of those intervals of sobriety which the writer confesses to have been with him of rather rare occurrence." What would Petrie make of the present popularity of those verses and of the "peasants" who sing them nowadays?! Next step . can we unearth a manuscript from Mr Joyce?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 10:07 AM

Richard Bridge: "piper (engineer, singer, poet, author) Tomás Ó Canainn mentions a 1790 publication of a tune called "Carrickfergus" but the air is that of "Haste to the Wedding", not the song we know of as Carrickfergus or Do bhí bean uasal.(see John Moulden's message on this aspect of the topic)."

Wait a minute now - slow Haste to the Wedding 'way down and throw in a minor chord or two - don't we have the same tune? (Confession: I couldn't find John Moulden's message on the topic, although I didn't look real hard - apologies if he's already talked about this).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skar
From: skarpi
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 02:59 PM

HAlló all, vá lot of Info :>) böhhhh   I ´ll have to save this and read this well over the weekend.

Haste to the Wedding , is that a reel or a jig , you just said slow it
down ?

All the best Skarpi Iceland.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 09:00 PM

Haste to the Wedding is a jig.

HOWEVER: I wrote that post first thing this morning, when the relationship between the two tunes struck me as glaringly obvious - now it's evening, and I think I must have been still half in dreamland when I had that wonderful musical revelation ... After reading your (Skarpi's) response, I walked around the room singing the lyrics of Carrickfergus to Haste to the Wedding (slowed down), and I now only sense the most tenuous, coincidental connection between the two melodies. So I wouldn't bother looking further into it.

By the way, although now somewhat out of fashion, Haste to the Wedding was long a very popular tune all over Canada, and I assume the rest of the English-speaking world (including at least some of the non-English-speaking communities within, beside, or otherwise in contact with the English-speaking world - does that cover everybody without insulting anybody?).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: Snead Hearn
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:16 PM

I've heard a recording of Carrickfergus sung by Sean O'Se at the Gaeity in 1971. It was part of a show produced by Sean O'Riada. Are you familiar with this?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:06 AM

That was the macaronic "Do Bhí Bean Uasal" version discussed earlier. Known on the ballad sheets as "The Young Sick Lover". I'm not sure how many verses Seán sang/sings.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:30 AM

Sean also included the macaronic version on his solo album, "Irish Heritage", on the Outlet label in 1997. (Sean's a beautiful singer, dignified and magesterial, and the album is well worth buying apart from "Carrickfergus").


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: Snead Hearn
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:32 PM

Thank you to MartinRyan and GUEST,Guest, Big Tim. I've been searching for a while for this album.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:25 AM

The Seán O Sé album is available on Amazon UK, price £6.50. What a bargain! The track list is,

I Know my Love,
The Barleygrain (John Barleycorn)
Down by the Tanyard Side
Carrickfergus
Master McGrath
Will ye Go Lassie Go
Killyburn Braes
Streams of Bunclody
Little Red Fox
She Lived beside the Anner
Bridin Ban Mo Stór
Valley of Knockanure (best ever version!)
Castle of Dromore
Shores of Americay.

Accompanied by Davy Spillane, Nollaig Casey, Donal Lunny, Des Moore, Niall Martin, Enda Walsh.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skar
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:27 AM

This is a great CD,I have a few LPs of Sean O`Se, his singing of, She lived beside the Anner, and Master McGrath are worth the CD alone,well worth the money.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skar
From: skarpi
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 02:25 AM

I´ll get that cd tonight ,
all thebest skarpi Iceland.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skar
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 04:58 AM

Skarpi, Your opinion please.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skar
From: skarpi
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 05:20 AM

ard mhacha , I have to get it from Amason.com and it take
about two to three weeks to get here , but I ´ll let you know
In Iceland we do not have stores who have lot of folk music.

we have to order everything from abroad.

All the best Skarpi Iceland.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skar
From: skarpi
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 05:21 AM

Amason.UK


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skar
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 07:15 AM

No problem Skarpi, and your English is ok, I understand, they have been trying to teach us English for years, maith thu, a chara.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 07:07 PM

Sorry, all, must have hit the key and posted by accident. I meant to say thanks for the cut and paste from the other page...in all that print I missed it, and the sean o'se recording is the one I have.

Would any of the irish speakers have a go at explaining the slight alterations that he makes to some of the lines? And, on the same subject, why do so many singers seem to lenite "fein" in so many circumstances? I noticed it in casadh an tsugain as well, the word is spelled fein, but pronounced fheinn, it seems...perhaps I'm just mishearing, perhaps it's a function of context. The appropriate line from this one is 'An tart ní féidir liom féin é do chlaoi', where o'se sings "lom-ayn".

Many thanks.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skar
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:33 AM

OK, I haven't time to do the lot, and my Irish is rusty, but I'll start this off and maybe some others will continue:

Do bhí bean uasal seal dá lua liom

(There was a fine lady once mentioned along with me)

Is do chuir sí suas dom, fairíor géar

(And she gave me up, alas, alas)

Is do ghabhas le stúrach na mallaí móra,

(And I went with (?stúrach?) of the great curses)


Is gur dhein sí cuach díom i lár an tsaoil.

(And she made a cuckold of me bfore the world)

Dá bhfaighinnse a ceann siúd faor áirse an teampaill

(If I were to get that one before the gracious ones of the church (?)

Is go mbeinnse arís ar m'ábhar féin

(And if I were again in command of myself)

Is anois ó táim tinn lag is ná fuil fáil ar leigheas agam,

(And now, as I am sick and weak, and and no hope of getting a cure,)

Is gan ach mo mhuintir ag gol im' dhéidh.

(And none but my family weeping after me.)

Heavens, but the poor chap is awful sorry for himself! Sounds like a typical excuse for an alcoholic to me.

If no one else takes it up, I'll take a run at the further verses, but people with Irish more liofa is flúirseach are probably ready to leap in now.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skar
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:08 PM

No one taking it up? OK, here's the next verse:

Is tá a fhios ag Éire nach mar gheall ar aon rud

do dhearbhaíos féin a dhéanamh di,
That I declared what was done by her
Ach mar gheall ar mo chéad searc do dhein mé thréigint
But the way it was with my hundred-times-treasured-one - she betrayed me
Agus í ag déanamh spré suas dá clann iníon.
As she got together a dowry for her two daughters
Tá an fuacht is an teas ag gabháil le chéile,
The cold and the heat are going together [in me]
Is an tart ní féidir liom féin a chloí,
and I can't quench my thirst
Is go bhfuil an leabhar orm ó Shamhain go February,

Is ná beidh mé réidh leis go Féile Mhichíl.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skar
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 03:36 AM

The last two lines seem to have got lost:

And if I took my oath from November to February
I wouldn't be ready until Michaelmas


(Michaelmas being September 29).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of Hugh O'Donnell Roe
From: GUEST,eddie mcginley
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:08 AM

I'm looking for the origins of a song I recently recorded named Hugh O'Donnell Roe.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: MartinRyan
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:13 AM

GUESTeddie

Best plan is to start a new thread and include the words of your version.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: GUEST,venpow
Date: 21 Nov 10 - 05:58 AM

last line verse five SHOULD take a swain from the County Clare


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 03 Nov 12 - 12:41 PM

Re: The last two lines in the song. (I'll use the slash before the vowels for the fada.)
The version in Irisleabhair na Gaedhilge is

"N/i'lir f/os n/a n/i bheir go deo agam,
You aren't yet and you never will be mine,

Mar do b'fhearr f/i dh/o liom mo bhuachaill deas."
For I'd prefer twice over my handsome boy.

The "buachaill deas" I take to be the same as "an buachaill caol dubh"
of another song, "the spirit of drink". I suppose a cowherd sticks to the cow in all weathers and situations, just as alcohol sticks to the addicted. I guess the last line means "I'd rather stick with the booze." It's likely been replaced by the line in English because people would take it too literally.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 08:38 AM

I did quite a bit of research into this song and as far as I could find there is/was no earlier Gaelic/Irish version. The origin as I know it is that the actor Peter O'Toole dictated the words to Dominic Behan in the early 1960's and it's that version which survives pretty much intact. It's possible of course that some previous trad Irush songs may have mentioned Carrickfergus or the tune way well have already existed, Behan was known to use some old Gaelic tunes for his songs
The story of the song, which I've heard from more than a few in Kilkenny, is that the 'rover'or minstrel, was from Northern Ireland, possibly an ex Soldier, who yearly made his way down the through the country usually ending up in Kilkenny. Where one year he met and fell in love with a lady there. he promised to come back and marry her, but when he did she had died. The Marble referred to Kilkenny marble, once the finest in Europe and mined in my home town, nearby Castlecomer. Most of the gravestones in KK cemetary and many pub and shop, church frontages are made of the same black marble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 04 Nov 12 - 01:50 PM

To Desi;
You're undoubtedly quite correct. I was merely pointing out that I had seen a version of "Do bh/i bean uasal" that differed in small ways from those mentioned. It's from vol.14, no. 174, of the March, 1905 edition of the Gaelic Journal, pp.750, 751. However, I think most of these songs are derivative of each other. For example, "The Bonny Bunch of Roses" is quite different in theme from "An Binns/in Luachra", but contains echoes, "those feathered songsters their liquid notes did sweetly tune", "'S na h-/eanlaithe ar an gcrann a's iad ag siuinse/ail". I don't think there would have been a previous Irish language version of it either.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 05 Nov 12 - 01:48 PM

version of "Do bhi bean uasal" in Irisleabhair.
1) Do bh/i bean uasalseal d/a luadh liom
   A lady was betrothed to me for a while
'S do chuir s/i suas d/iom, c/ead faraoir g/ear.
   And she refused me, oh my hundred woes.
   Do ghabhas lem stuaire na bailt/i muara (m/ora)
   I went the towns with her (my handsome woman)
   (possibly means "I went to town with her", perhaps
    to finalize the marriage agreement)
'S do dhein s/i cuach d/iom i l/ar an tsaoghail.
   And she made a fool of me before people.
   (I don't think that "cuach" necessarily means cuckold here)
   D/a bhfuighinn-se a ceann s/ud f/e /airs/i'n teampaill,
   If I had got that head of hers into the church,
   Go mbeinn ar/is ar m'/adhbhar f/ein,
   I would have become myself again, (regained my self-command)
   Ach anois t/aim tinn lag 's n/a fuil fagh/ail leighis orm
   But now I' weak and sore, and there's no getting of a cure for me
   A's beidh mo mhuinntir ag gol im dh/eidh.
   And my people will be weeping after me.

2) T/a 's(fhios)ag /Eire nach mar gheall ar /ean(aon) rud
   Everyone(Ireland) knows that it isn't on account of (just)anything
   Do dhearbhuigheas f/einig i gcoinnibh dighe,
   I swore off (against) drink,
   Ach mar gheall ar mo ch/ead-searc a dhein m/e 'thr/eigint
   But on account of my beloved who abandoned me (did me abandon)
'S /i ag d/eanamh spr/e suas d/a clann inghean.
   And she building up dowry for her daughters. (possibly that may
   have arrived in the course of the planned marriage. Apparently
   some marriage agreements had complex provisions)
   T/a an fuacht ag teacht a's an teas ag /eal/odh
   The cold is coming and the heat is slipping away
   (referring to both weather and possibility of wedding?)
'S an tart n/i f/eidir liom f/ein a chlaoidhe
   And I can't conquer the thirst
'S go bhfuil an leabhar orm /o Shamhain go Feb'ry
   I've bound myself (given my word) from November to February
   (Perhaps with the hope of a marriage in Shrovetide)
'S n/i bheidh s/i reidh liom go F/eil' Mhich/il.
   I won't be free of it 'til Michaelmas.(If "leabhar" is fem.=s/i)
   But, if "s/i"="bean", then: she won't be reconciled with me 'til--
   
3) Do shiubhluigheas /Eire 's an Mhumhain le ch/eile
   I travelled Ireland and Munster together (both Ireland and Munster)
   Agus s/ios cois /Eirne mar mb/iodh mo ghr/adh
   And up by Loch Erne where my love used be
   A's n/i fheaca aon bhean ar feadh an mh/eid sin
   And I didn't see any woman along that whole stretch
   Do b'fhearr liom f/einig n/a Malla/i Bh/an
   that I preferred over Fair Molly.
   Mn/a na h-/Eireann a's a dteacht le ch/eile
   The women of Ireland and their coming together
   C/e gur muar(m/or) an tr/eason dom a leath a r/adh
'Though it's a great treason for me to utter the half of it
'S /e deir gach aonduine chonaic mo sp/eirbhean
   What everyone that saw my fair one said
   Go rug s/i an craobh l/ei /o Chonntae an Chl/air.
   (Was)that she won the laurels over all from the County Clare.

4) T/aim tinn breoidhte 's mo chos dheas leointe
   I'm sore and sick and my right leg injured
'S go ghaibh an /oigbhean so tharm isteach
   And this young woman went in close by me.
   D'iarras-sa p/oig/in uair n/o dh/o uirthe
   I asked her once or twice for a kiss
'S go bhfuighinn f/ein foir'thint(foirighthean)/a suidheadh lem
   ais.
   And that I'd get comfort of those seated with me.
   Uch mo chreach a's mo mh/ile br/on soin,
   Oh! My ruin and these thousand sorrows of mine,
   An saoghal so romham a's gan p/osadh leat.
   This life before me and no marriage with you.
"N/i 'lir f/os n/a n/i bheir go deo agam
   You aren't mine yet nor will you ever
   Mar do b'fhearr f/i dh/o mo bhuachaill deas."
   For I'd prefer twice over my handsome lad.
   (in this case, I think "mo bhuid/eal", "my bottle", "the booze")

   Sorry for my imperfect knowledge of both language and how to
   make the accent.

   I see the first stanza as an introduction, setting out the main
   theme. The second is for the details. The third is in praise
   of the betrothed. The fourth is a sort of denouement where he
   resigns himself to his failed cause. I can find nowhere however
   that "cuach" explicitly equals "cuc/ol", although it may be
   hinted at. I thought at first that more than one woman was in
   question, but now I think it's a case of "cleamhnas briste", a
   match made but not completed. I'm not at all clear about the
   November to February bit except that it may refer to the promise
   to marry just before Lent, and the "'til Michaelmas" part
   the growing uncertainty as to the likelihood. Sorry about
   somewhat off topic. I hope I haven't wasted your time.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Original lyric of carrickfergus..Skarpi
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 08 Nov 12 - 12:23 PM

re: last line.
Maybe "Do b'fhearr f/i dh/o liom m/e bheith im bhuachaill deas"
"I'd prefer twice over to be a carefree bachelor"
The word "deas" has some ironic senses in the dictionaries including that of "intoxicated". So, perhaps the sense is "Do b'fhearr f/i dh/o
liom (m/e bheith) im bhuachaill deas."


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