BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.

Subject: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 02:44 AM

The famous Manchester Halle Orchestras tour of the US has been called off, the Orchestra members were told that they had to go to London to the US Embassy to be vetted[grilled] before they would be issused with Visas.

You couldn`t make it up, it would have made a good April fools day scam,
The Orchestra decided that the journey to and from London would entail too much expense so they have called off their Tour of the US.

The mind boggles too many French Horns.


Thanks to the US this is a non-musical Thread

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: sian, west wales
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:42 AM

I heard that on the news this morning. Well - it was bound to happen. And bound to happen again. I believe that the Halle is very popular in the USA. I always think of it for its rendition of the Welsh piece, Suo Gan, which was made popular as the running theme in the film, "Empire of the Sun".

Another folk connection: I know at least one folk agent in the USA who is booking more and more clients from the UK to Canadian festivals to avoid a lot of the visa issues. And I know of one Welsh group which had a tour booked for 2003 so applied for visas in 2002. They're still waiting to hear - and obviously cancelled the tour. They've been advised by another agent that there isn't anything they can do to move things along and that they probably won't even get an explanation.

And these UK visa proposals are going to drop us in it this side of the water too.

"The wounds of the world being bound up in red tape."

siân

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:49 AM

Just a question- it seems that whenever Sian posts, the font of the thread as viewed here (Firefox 1.5) changes to large, open characters. It's also noticeable that the accent on her a comes out as a Korean character apparently meaning "window".

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 06:30 AM

Haven't the Yanks got any Orchestras of their own then?

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 06:39 AM

It has also been reported that a number of Rock Bands have pulled out of US tours as they found all of the red tape connected with the obtaining of visas wasn`t worth the bother.

John Summers the Halles chief executive said each Orchestra member would have been requested to go to London after phoning to arrange an interview at the Embassy. He added that the US Visa service will not use Consulates outside London, Summers added," this palaver of getting Visas is mind blowing".

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Arnie
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 06:53 AM

Do we all, as UK Cits, have to get visas to visit the US?? My mate has just gone over there on holiday and for a few cajun gigs and he never mentioned getting a visa. If this really is the case, then I trust that there is at least reciprocity. Perhaps it's just for performers, but it's a pretty sorry state of affairs when concerts and bookings are cancelled - seems like the terrorists have gained at least one of their aims by sowing such distrust between supposed allies!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:56 AM

No, not everyone, Arnie. If you are going just for a holiday there is a form you fill in on the plane or at the airort and that suffices for a visa. Certain restrictions apply like no known terrorist affiliations (Would you tell them?) apply. I guess if your mate included the gigs as part of his hols rather than work he may get away with it.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Pied Piper
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 08:03 AM

The US takes another step up it's own arse.
Given the number of venally evil organisations in America such as the KKK and the American Nazis, I hope we're reciprocating.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 08:30 AM

My son and his wife had to fly back to the UK from the US in order to renew their visas to stay in the US. They had to fly down to London and pay for one night in an hotel, so that they could be interviewed. They then flew back to Glasgow, picked up my grandson, and flew back to the US where they have been living and working for the last 5 years.
Lunacy? Of course it is.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 09:31 AM

It's not just the US that does that, a colleagues wife has just flown back to Australia to get her visa for the UK renewed. I suppose its a good way of making sure you don't just slip away if your visa application is denied.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: open mike
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 10:10 AM

when north side records organized a Nordic / Scandinavian festival in
Minnesota (as they do every year) they found that they needed their congressman or senator (now no longer with us, Paul Wellstone) to push
for the Visas to be approved so the performers could get to the U.S.

this non-support of cultural embassadors is not serving to unite the sworld!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 03:03 PM

I don't understand the variables in this. Tommy Sands, for instance, has never mentioned any difficulty in getting permission to perform in the US. He even tours in a number of states.

Many Canadian citizens come to Juneau for the Alaska Folk Festival (next week!) and perform here. They, of course, stay only a week or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:40 AM

A former colleague has an Indian passport but is a British citizen. She got bounced back from Heathrow to New York because her visa had expired whilst they were in the US, despite being told that as a British citizen it would make no difference. When she landed at New York she was told she had to get her visa done in the UK, because they couldn't do it there in less than a week. She eventually had to spend an extra 2 weeks in the US and damn nearly lost her job because of it.

These days airlines are refusing to let you fly if your passport expires in less than 6 months from the date of your flights. Consequently, I'm having to renew my passport and apply for one for Limpit, even though I still have 4 months left on our old one and I'm going to an EU country!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:51 PM

Sure the restrictions are tight - probably too tight. Still, the opportunity is there. The Halle Orchestra made the decision themselves, they were not shut out of coming. People who are looking to blame the U.S. will jump on the opportunity as Sian did, but at least have the decency not to cloud the facts with bias. Shameful.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:22 PM

"Still the opportunity is there" Ron please, this Orchestra consisting of over 100 members were asked to travel to London at a cost of £45,000 which they could not afford.

The red-tape from the US Embassy is insulting to this renouned Orchestra, the oldest in England. it`s a waste of time to say that these creeps should be ashamed of themselves, but, at least their citizens should get off their knees and tell them so.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:23 PM

So 100 members should be blindly let into the country just because they are part of an orchestra?   Nice!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:31 PM

I apologize Sian, I did not mean to attribute that comment to you. My apologies for the error.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:44 PM

Well we know what these symphony boys are like, you couldn`t trust one of them, and my God 100 of these potential terroists invading the evil empire .now we couldn`t have that.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:03 PM

Well at least you admit it Ard!!

Seriously, unless you have some sort of insight that the rest of us do not, how the hell do you know what is in their minds? You can't live by what a sterotype of a terroist should be. No one said that these musicians would be shut out. Sorry if they had to travel, but their reason for coming to the United States would have been to earn money.

I am not defending our policies, but there is more than just one side to the story. Too many people are shut out because they are overwhelmed by the bullshit. There has to be compromises.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Kaleea
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:07 PM

Thank you, dubblepew, for once again proving that since you were placed into office, the axis of evil is your desire to be emperor of the planet & now stupidity reigns in the land formerly known as the "land of the free." Now, if you'll all pardon me as I go off to sing "this land ain't your land, this land ain't my land . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:13 PM

Ron I am beginning to worry about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:32 PM

Nothing to worry about. I'm not going to vote Republican or join the NRA or anything like that.

I hate the restrictions that are placed on visitors to and from this country. We seem to forget what this country stood for in terms of opening doors.

However, I am sick of everyone who whines about the problem and assumes that there is an easy solution. It isn't that simple!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:40 PM

So 100 members should be blindly let into the country just because they are part of an orchestra?   Nice!!!!

Any idea how many US troops and ancilliary workers are in the UK without a visa, Ron?

Which US citizens have visa's to let them in Iran? Nicaragua?

Don't get me wrong - I am not saying that the US are the only one to expect free passage. But they do seem to be the only ones to expect one way traffic!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:53 PM

I'm not disagreeing with you Dave. We should not be the cops of the world, and that is a huge problem with our current administration. At one point England seemed to have a bigger problem with going where they do not belong.   I guess they learned their lesson, but even now they still stick their nose where it doesn't belong.   

With all due respect, your reaction is a knee-jerk. When you mix the issues like you just did then the solution becomes harder to find.

The Visa issues stem from a paranoia created by a real attack on this country. Did we go overboard, sure. Should the checks have been tighter than they were, I think most people would say yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:58 PM

Heavens, Ron is a Democrat, makes you shudder to think what the Bush voters opinions are.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:03 PM

There you go again Ard.   Because I won't vote Republican automatically makes me a Democrat? That is what I was getting at about assumptions. You painted a picture of our Visa procedures that was clouded by your feelings about the U.S.   That is what is wrong with the world today.   Instead of finding common ground people end up just creating more divisions.

If we can't deal with each other we will never solve the bigger problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:07 PM

If you don`t vote for either gang who do you vote for?, not a hell of a lot of choice in the land of the free.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:15 PM

Now you are making assumptions Guest. I assume you do not live in the U.S. or you would realize that your statement is silly.   

Sure the 2 party system rules this country, but that doesn't mean are choices are limited. That may sound crazy, but we do not have to register for either party. We can vote for whoever we choose. Change comes slowly, but it will come.

I did a little resarch into the story that Ard partially shared with us.   Since 9/11, the U.S. has required that fingerprints appear on Visas. Apparently this can only be done at the consulate, which happens to be in London. This also applies to Visas for people who are coming to the US to WORK. There are different rules for visitors. The Orchestra, which previously appeared at the Hollywood Bowl, was scheduled to play at Lincoln Center this tour.   Apparently the cost of obtaining the Visas would have cut into the profits making this not worth their while.

Again, the redtape and paranoia is a bit much. My beef is that people are only looking at one side instead of trying to find a compromise.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:19 PM

The one thing you can guarantee is that any competent terrorist group is going to be able to get around this kind of stuff. Not exactly difficult.

It seems pretty obvious that the purpose of this is nothing to do with actually reducing the risk of terrorist activity, it's about bureaucrats protecing their own backs. When there is another big terrorist atrocity in the States, likely enough by someone who has been living there all their lives, the idea is to be able to give a great list of "precautions" that had been carried out.

Maybe we'll get back to the old days when American musicians weren't generally able to perform in England, and I imagine the other way round for the States. That had some good consequences at times actually, and a lot of musicians here owed their professional careers to that situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:20 PM

Anyway, why isn't this counted as a music thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:33 PM

I, speaking only for myself, feel it is idiocy to place the same restrictions on EVERYONE when so many security failures in genuinely serious areas take place daily!

"Does that mean, Bill...that you support *gasp* PROFILING??"

Why, yes, as a matter of fact, I do....and orchestras get preferential treatment...(except for those dangerous oboes, which as we all know, are an ill wind which nobody blows good)

I, personally, have witnessed little old ladies being pulled from line and searched at airports, while swarthy guys with furtive looks were allowed in with barely a glance......I know, I know...we must be **FAIR** and unbiased....fine. If that sounds petty and unreasonable, sue me. I want a PRACTICAL policy, not a politically correct policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:34 PM

From the Associated Press:

"Getting visas for the 80 musicians and 20 others would have required a trip for all of them from the orchestra's home base of Manchester to London, a 300-kilometer (190-mile) journey. The cost estimate included the 63 pound (US$100; ?90) visa fee, transportation to London, an overnight stay and wages for two days"

Lets do the math. The visa itself would cost 63 pounds - or a total of 6300 pounds.   The remaining 38,700 pounds would be spent in travel, wages and hotels? Hmmm. I guess you do not have Motel 6 in England.

Granted 190 miles is a long trip, but it could be done in one very long day. A bit uncomfortable I will grant you, but it could be done.

The story continues, with quotes from Andy Ryans, the orchestra's marketing director.

" Ryans said the U.S. Embassy wasn't willing to interview and fingerprint all of the orchestra members in one day.

Many travellers, including British citizens, can enter the United States as tourists without a visa, but anyone intending to work in the country must get one before traveling.

Rick Roberts, a spokesman for the U.S. Embassy, said there was no record of the orchestra's trying to have all of its members come on one day but that the number of artists applying for visas had increased each year since 2003.

U.S. visa requirements were tightened after Sept. 11, 2001. Three years after the terrorist attacks, most foreigners entering the United States were required to be interviewed and fingerprinted before getting a visa.

John Caulfield, in charge of U.S. consular affairs, said the embassy makes arrangements for many groups.

"I think there was a misunderstanding," Caulfield said. "They all have to apply individually, but we could have done it at a time that worked for the orchestra." "

This was also a tour for 2007. I may be naive, but it sounds like something could have been worked out.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:32 PM

I guess the cost of a cheap day return train ticket to London has gone up a lot since I was last there.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:48 PM

So if you want to come into your country to blow up something, there's no great problem if it's in the course of a holiday trip - but if you're down as doing a gig of some kind while you are there they check you out rigorously. Somehow that seems the wrong way round.

What a strange place. I remember when I went to the States many years ago being asked at the passport control in New York whether I had any intention of overthrowing the government of the United States. I was tempted to say "Not unless the opportunity arises in the course of my visit", but I bit my lip and kept quiet. These guys don't like jokers, and I could tell they didn't much like my hair and my beard anyway.

"Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad"

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:09 PM

"So if you want to come into your country to blow up something, there's no great problem if it's in the course of a holiday trip - but if you're down as doing a gig of some kind while you are there they check you out rigorously. Somehow that seems the wrong way round."

No, if you want to come into this country to make money you will be scrutinized. Everyone who comes into this country will be scrutinized as well. Terrorism has a way of making people paranoid that is very true.

What people seem to be conveniently ignoring is the fact that this trip is over a year away, there appears to be a lack of communication (probably on both parts) and the orchestra gave up. They threw out a figure and everyone is feeling sorry for them. The U.S. was not charging them 45000 pounds, that is a figure they produced.   There appears to be signs that the Embassy might have been able to work something out for them, but the orchestra seemed just as inflexible in the stories I've read.

Again, it is convenient to only look at the "facts" that support pre-conceived notions. Some things will never change.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:25 PM

"Thanks to the US this is a non-musical Thread " Absolute nonsense. This was not the fault of the US, but of some puling crybabies.

The orchestra objected to making a 200 mile trip to obtain visas? 200 miles? Less than a five hour drive? What'sa matta dem guys?

They could have driven to London the day before, stayed over one night and bright and early the next day begun the process. Even if they weren't finished until 5:00 PM, they could still have been home before midnight.

And you guys take this seriously? pttuuuii! I'll never again think of you as somehow superior to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:46 PM

Washington DC is about 235 miles from my home in Northern, NJ. On a number of occasions I've driven down in the morning, stayed for an event in the afternoon, then driven back that evening. Bus trips are even easier.

With over a YEAR before the trip, this orchestra could have worked it out.

The saying goes "where there is a will there is a way". Unfortunately for these folks the way was to whine and play the vicitim and try to dredge up sympathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:28 AM

Driving in England is VERY different to driving in the USA. It will take 5 hours just to do the trip from Manchester to London, and another 5 hours going back, without the wait in between. Whilst the US aren't charging them 45000 pounds, that is part of the additional costs. Train tickets are hideously expensive here in the UK too so rule that out please. Cheap day return indeed - no such thing. The last time I went to Manchester it cost over 120 pounds for a day return.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:01 AM

With all due respect, your reaction is a knee-jerk.

and So 100 members should be blindly let into the country just because they are part of an orchestra?   Nice!!!! isn't, I guess?

The one rule for America and one for the rest of the world seems to be well documented, Ron:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 07:41 AM

No, if you want to come into this country to make money you will be scrutinized.

That's what I meant by "gig" - any kind of paid work. It appears that scrutiny is tighter in such cases than it is for leisure travel - and that's what seems daft. If there were any grounds for this kind of difference it would be the leisure travellers you'd watch out for. I mean, why arrange a job when you are going over there to blow up the Pentagon?

I imagine that if other countries were to apply the same kind of rules to Americans, so that processing travel arrangements had to involve making a trip to Washington, that wouldn't go down too well in places like California, Alaska and Hawaii...

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:29 AM

It's strange how so many musically inclined people seem to be missing the fact that it is an orchestra we are talking about. You can't just send 20% away to get visas one day, another 20% the next and so on. And of course an orchestra is a business. They look at the projected costs and return on playing at one set of theatres and compare them with the equivalent figures for elsewhere. Add in the fact that the visa trip to London would also cost them a least one and possibly several days of not earning any income (or equivalent rehearsal time) and so on and so forth, and they've come to the conclusion that visiting the US under the current procedures is uneconomic. That's not saying the processes are right or wrong, efficient or inefficient: its just book-keeping.

I heard that they asked if there was any way the US consulate could send 1 person up to where they were, rather than send 100 down to where he/she was but apparently the consulate considered that was out of the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:03 AM

"The one rule for America and one for the rest of the world seems to be well documented, Ron:-)"

Dave, I'm surprised at you for using Fox News tactics - mixing in an unrelated but highly emotional story to try to draw a connection between the two stories. Hey, wait a minute - that is what Bush did to get us into this mess in Iraq in the first place!

Sure, I do a agree with you about the US going where they do not belong. But it is still a separate issue. This orchestra has opportunites to get the visas and NOT spend the cash that they are mentioning.   It is a 5 hour drive to DC from here, and it can be done. Not a comfortable day for anyone, but if they truly want to make this work they could.

My guess is that this is just a ploy to draw sympathy. From the stories I've read, it does seem that the embassy wanted to work with them. They could not go to Manchester because moving the equipment required is prohibitive. This orchestra does not play 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year. With a year to go before this trip they could have made arrangements to get everyone down there if they truly wanted this to work.

The way it stands, the orchestra felt that they could not afford it. That is a business decision.   I would love to own a radio station - but the costs for licenses and equipment are prohibitive. Should I go whining to the press to complain I am being held back from doing radio because of this?

Look, this is a case of redtape pure and simple. The requirements may be too strict, I won't disagree.   Still, the facts from what I have read in several reports seem to indicate more of an unwillingness to compromise on the part of the orchestra. For everyone to use this as another opportunity to knock the entire country of the United States is just stupid. Don't cloud the issues!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:17 PM

Who's knocking "the entire country of the United States"? All people have been saying is that you've got some really silly people and some really silly ways of doing things. Would anyone actually disagree with that? Noone is implying that the USA is unique in that respect, just that your stupid things are sometimes different from other people's stupid things.

"They could not go to Manchester because moving the equipment required is prohibitive." What kind of equipment is that then?

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:29 PM

"Who's knocking "the entire country of the United States"? :

1. Thanks to the US this is a non-musical Thread
2. The US takes another step up it's own arse.
3. now stupidity reigns in the land formerly known as the "land of the free." Now, if you'll all pardon me as I go off to sing "this land ain't your land, this land ain't my land . . ."
4. What a strange place.

Just a few examples from this thread. Read other threads and you will find sentiment not directed against our government but the country and the people who live here. We don't blame you or your country because the faults of your government.

If you aren't happy with the rules, work to make change. This orchestra decided to work it out in the press.   I won't be surprised to see this worked out and the orchestra appears at Lincoln Center next year. It is probably a lazy way of dealing with the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 07:09 PM

I won't be surprised to see this worked out and the orchestra appears at Lincoln Center next year.

Nor would I. And issuing a press release about it, which I imagine is what they did, sounds like a sensible way to help bring that about. Stupidity flourishes best in the dark, so bringing it into the light can sometimes work wonders. (And if this had been the British government laying down these kinds of rules over giving passports for the orchestra, for example, you can guarantee it would have been publicly humiliated and crucified.)

Everybody gets knocked and teased from time to time. Getting riled at that kind of thing just encourages it. As the saying almost goes "the bigger they are, the harder they fall for it"...

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:06 AM

Dead on McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:50 AM

Well at least we agree on something. At least we all seem to realize the orchestra was using this as an excuse and they could have made it work.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 02:55 PM

Ron You are a good example of US pig-headness.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 04:10 PM

There you go again. Once again, you take cheap shots and rely on sterotypes. Shameful Ard.

Just because someone does not agree with you does not make it pigheaded. Sorry Ard, but I resented the slanted way you presented your information. I dug up additional information that shows that there are two sides to the story. You choose to remain steadfast in your preconceived notions, so tell me how that makes ME pigheaded?

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:36 PM

Is it really being seriously sugggested that there is some duty to keep shtum when you come up against some bit of bureaucratic foolishness, rather than kicking up a fuss, which might possibly get things sorted out, so helping both you and other people in the future?

There are a lot of people who do actually believe that. Actually that kind of embarrassment about kicking up a fuss is probably more in line with the English stereotype , whereas the stereotype American is seen as more likely to go to the other extreme.

All stereotypes oversimplify reality - though most stereotypes probably do contain some aspect of truth, the truth always contains a number of other aspects.

I am firm in my opinions, you are obstinate, he is pigheaded...

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:01 PM

Ron, this thread says everything about why America is losing it with everybody. Your attitude is shameful. The cost to America of having these visa facilities in Britain's major cities is miniscule. They won't bother. The attitude is you do as we say or you ..ck off. We all have our pride Ron, as your country did when we tried it on you. It is the arrogance you're always accused of personified. It makes America no friends, but then judging by your postings you don't seem to want them.It's an orchestra for heavens sake, part of the little bit of humanity that still makes sense and stands for the good things. You should be on your knees thanking them for still believing in the humanities and in humanity itself. Everyday your country makes more enemies and for those of us who remember the good America it's a souring experience. You put up a barricade and I know what side I'm going to be on, and I'm not alone. Isolationism never worked and treating us like coolies and making us do the tricks you demand just so we can make music in your country is just plain stupid. The more you cut yourself off from the healing arts the more paranoid you'll become as a society.
Saying "yes, welcome" to an institution like the Halle should be a pleasure and a priviledge. It's very sad that your paranoia denys you the better things in life.
Hunker down Ron, her comes the bogeyman....with a cello!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: DougR
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:49 PM

I am sympathetic with Ard's point of view, but I agree with Ron that in that it seems to me that something could be worked out. However, Ard's assumption that symphony orchestra members should not be treated just as any other British citizen would be is where I part company with him. I managed symphony orchestras for seventeen years here in the U. S., and I assure you that symphony musicians are little different than anyone else. Could a Terrorist pose as a touring symphony musician? Not likely. Could a symphony musician be a terrorist? Possibly.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:58 PM

You people really need to get a life. Sorry Wordy, you are a shining example of the problem that spin doctors are creating. EVERYTHING that you mention in your paragraph is great cliches and rhetoric, but you have shown that you are completely ignorant of the facts. You have only listened to one side of the story. You are shameful Wordy.

Please point out in any of my posts where I said that I do not want them to come.   Please point out where the U.S. said they were unwelcome. You can't because no one ever said that the Halle was unwelcome. I am sure they are a wonderful institution and they are showing that the are great businesspeople.

I readily admit our procedures are too strict. Red tape is not only a problem in this country. ALL I've said, is that there were ways to work this out, and the Orchestra is just a guilty for being stubborn.

If arrogance is looking at both sides of a story and trying to find common ground, then I am a real arrogant bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 01:37 AM

I have a question: Is that orchestra admitted to other international gigs without problem? I don't mean to EU countries; presumably they have reciprocal arrangements. But to Russia or to anywhere in Africa or to Asia?

I hadn't realized that there are 100 + members of the orchestra. Obviously it would be difficult to process that many in one day.

On the other hand, if each member of the orchestra were made responsible for getting each individual visa - and a number of them doubled up in travel - it would seem doable.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:35 AM

Can I throw something else into the discussion? In January I went into New Orleans from a cruise ship. Admittedly, this was as a tourist not as someone seeking permission to work. But the authorities were able to process something like 1200 people in about an hour and a half and as far as we could see the only specialist equipment was a rubber stamp and inkpad for each official. They did not take our fingerprints or photographs, for example. It is quite possible that they were able to do some of this from information they had already - for example, the ship had photographed each of us as part of the initial boarding procedure and the authorities could have had our names and addresses for at least a month; on the other hand we had certainly not been fingerprinted.

The biggest single difference, I would suggest, is that New Orleans wants to do everything it can to encourage visitors to come back, whereas another hundred more or less doesn't make too much difference to many parts of the US.

I am sure 'something could be worked out' to get the orchestra into the US. I would much prefer it if this meant 'they could work something outtogether' rather than 'the orchestra could work something out on its own which fitted with the way the consulate had decided was absolute.'

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 04:25 AM

Ron, You seem to be in the minority on this great hair-splitting debate.
Plain common sense exhibited by your muddle headed US Government administrators in the UK, would have solved this petty farce at the beginning.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 04:32 AM

The whole point of the orchestra's deciding to cancel the tour was not that they needed visas, or even the processes needed for them to obtain them. It all boiled down to the cost of transporting all the people down to London at the same time, the high probability that the process would take more than one day thus requiring overnight accomdation (a highly expensive thing in London). The orchestra offered to pay for the embassy officials to travel to Manchester and to do the interviews there. The embassy rejected this outright - this is what all the fuss really is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 04:44 AM

And that surely is being pig-headed by the Embassy.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 06:21 AM

Like I said, we all have to jump through their hoops and they make no effort at all to ease the process. The stories I've heard from other musicians who have had the temerity to apply to gig in the States are legion. And they are not funny!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 06:50 AM

Ron, nice try!

However, factual statements do not fare well in this atmosphere.
I don't have your patience. I simply thought;

1. No big deal - stay home, guys.
2. Bunch of crybabies.
3. No matter what problems we have in the US (and there are many),
   I could less what the others think of us. (US)

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:06 AM

Thanks for that G. It just reinforces what's been said and loses you a few more friends. Keep digging.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 09:49 AM

"Ron, You seem to be in the minority on this great hair-splitting debate."

That is not exactly true. We are hearing primarily from people on the other side of the pond who have dramatically shown that they are ignoring aspects of the story that do not fit their preconceived notions.

Please try to comprehend what I have said earlier. Please read ALL the stories.   Dazbo said the orchestra would have paid for the expense for the embassy to come to Manchester. Maybe I missed that in the stories I read, but all I saw was that they asked the embassy to come to them - not pay for the expenses.   The embassy claimed that the cost of moving computer equipment to check fingerprints would be prohibitive and disruptive to their operation. The Embassy said that they would have worked out a time at the orchestras convenience to make it happen in London.

It boils down to red tape and a 200 mile trip that the Orchestra could not make. As I've said from the beginning, I do agree that our policies are too strict. Change is needed, but this is not the way to bring it about. I also think the Orchestra has made the issue larger than it needed be and have thrown around costs that are inflated. They also failed to continue the dialogue with the Embassy.

It is shameful that we cannot have open dialogue and that anyone who expresses a different opinion or shares additional information becomes labeled "arrogant" or part of some "evil empire", or simply dismissed because it doesn't fit the preconceived agenda. There is a bigotry at work here. You have become exactly what you are protesting against - arrogant, pig-headed and closed minded. Shameful behavoir and a poor representation of what you profess to stand for.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:23 AM

If another building was hit like The World Trade centre, you'd all be on here saying travel restrictions weren't tough enough. Like anything in life, if there is red tape involved, be prepared.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:43 AM

We are hearing primarily from people on the other side of the pond who have dramatically shown that they are ignoring aspects of the story that do not fit their preconceived notions.

A little sweeping, I think, Ron. I am on the UK side of the pond, and here's a few of the places I do agree with you:

It boils down to red tape and a 200 mile trip that the Orchestra could not make.
Yep, that's it in a nutshell. 'Could not' needs to be read variously as 'would not', 'decided not to' and so forth, but that's it in essence.

/As I've said from the beginning, I do agree that our policies are too strict. Change is needed, but this is not the way to bring it about
I agree that getting into a public spat rarely helps bring about any sort of long-term change and it is unlikely to here. In further defence of the US position, the current arguments with Ken Livingstone where he referred to the US ambassador as a chiselling little crook, while not directly connected, do little to help build the harmonious relationship needed to resolve this sort of problem easily.

I also think the Orchestra has made the issue larger than it needed be... yes to that ... and have thrown around costs that are inflated. I'm not so sure here. A lot depends what is included and what is not. Accountancy is not a simple art. They also failed to continue the dialogue with the Embassy. Faults on both sides here, I suspect. I think it extremely likely the orchestra decided to break off talks first, but I don't know for certain.

The embassy claimed that the cost of moving computer equipment to check fingerprints would be prohibitive and disruptive to their operation. I'm not convinced about the cost of moving the equipment, but I can certainly see that it could be disruptive to their operation. And the main people to suffer as a result of that disruption would be other UK citizens, rather than the US.

So, in summary, I don't think we are as far apart as readers of this thread might think! Someone once used the phrase that people were 'violently agreeing with each other' and there is something of that here.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:29 PM

If you look again you will finD that not only the Halle had to go bowing and scraping , lots of pop bands also pulled out of their US trips, rather than humiliate themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Maryrrf
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:52 PM

Well I personally know several UK folk musicians who have decided not to tour in the US because of visa red tape. Yes, with time and money it can be sorted out but some are deciding it just isn't worth the hassle. This started after 9/11 and I really don't see the point of cracking down on touring musicians when it is supposedly terrorists the US government is trying to keep out. As has been pointed out it's easy enough to enter as a tourist if you really do have evil intentions. I also know some musicians from across the pond who would have probably gone the legal route and applied for visas which allowed them to perform, but knew it would be very difficult, complicatd and costly, and since they would only be playing small concerts they just decided to risk it and say they were coming over for a "holiday", figuring the chances of being caught gigging without the proper visa would be small. Can't say I blame them at all.

I believe this policy has made it so that we've missed out on seeing many talented musicians here in the States and really isn't benefiting anyone as far as I can tell. I am very much opposed to it and I hope it gets changed soon (but I'm not holding my breath).

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:55 PM

Here is an update:

"Readers of the Manchester Evening News may be interested to know that there is an up-date to this story. According to our records, the orchestra's representative had not spoken to the Embassy Consulate directly and had apparently misunderstood information delivered by the call center. The consulate in fact works with large groups frequently and always seeks to minimize the inconvenience to them. A telephone call from an Embassy consul to the orchestra has explained that we can schedule a block of time for the entire group or a series of small groups and individuals, whatever works best for them. The tour was slated for 2007 so we hope the Halle Orchestra will reconsider and avail themselves of the opportunity to make arrangements for visas. In the future, technology may allow us to take the necessary biometrics (electronic fingerprints) outside of the Embassy but until then we will work with groups to insure that we facilitate every legitimate visitor seeking to travel to the US. Since the biometric and interview requirements were introduced in 2004, we have shown an increase in the number of visas issued to performers, over 5600 last year. Many of those performers may reside in London, but certainly not all. So it is fair to say that while onerous, the visa application process should not be the deciding factor in whether a performer travels to the US or not. Our policy is "Secure Borders and Open Doors". We encourage you to visit the US. You can learn more by visiting our web site: london.usembassy.gov Rick Roberts Minister Counselor for Public Affairs
Rick Roberts, London"

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:04 PM

Change is needed, but this is not the way to bring it about.

Why not? What on earth have they done wrong? Cancelled a tour because in the circumstances it because uneconomical, and issued a press release explaining why they had cancelled it.   What's wrong with that.   

If it makes someone in the bureucracy machine have another think, well and good. If not, there are plenty of other places to go on tour where this kind of problem just doesn't arise.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST,G
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:06 PM

Guest said'"Thanks G. It just reinforces what's been said and loses you a few more friends. Keep digging."

Okay......I am sick and tired of the criticism and frankly don't care what any non-USA malcontent thinks. If we are so bad, stay the hell away.

Here is another example of whiney cat Brits and this is a town not far from where I spend a little bit of the Winter.

Not a total quote;

"Brits call city in Florida unsafe."

"School officials in southwestern Florida said terriosm concerns led them to keep a high-school band from marching in a London parade, but now angry British officials are telling travelers that Fort Myers is no safe haven either."

...........bombing ofLondon's city buses and subways....."

"On Friday, London parade officials released a statement to the News-Press of Fort Meyers, warning British travelers about the city's crime and homicide rates, Lee County's record number of traffic deaths in 2005 and that the "entire area is prone to catastrophic hurricanes."

NOW, Fort Meyers sent a letter to London officials, NOT the newspapers. Maybe the traffic death rate is up (I don't know for sure) and possibly due to British drivers? Although I have not noticed many Brits in this part of Paradise.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 03:14 PM

A Guardian report,states that, - other agents said rock musicians also fed up with the process and expense were refusing visit the US.

Katie Ray of Traffic Control Group Ltd,which secures Visas and work permits mainly for Rock Bands, said some artists were now choosing not to tour the US.

A vote in The Manchester Evening News on travelling to London to obtain a Visa, voted 93% on, not travelling.

If you can Google Telegraph Opinion you will read of a lady reporters saga on obtaining a Visa and this was previous to September 11th attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 07:22 PM

I never thought I'd be on the same side as ard, but this time we are in agreement. You can only come the big "I am" so many times before the people you are manipulating say stuff it.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:54 PM

Before 9/11? Yeah, the Fab Four didn't find it worth their while either.

I'm still interested in what the process and experiences are for when a large group visits other continents.

By the way, it seems just barely possible that the Halle Orchestra was planning to tour the US not out of the goodness of their hearts in exposing us to supeedyah culchah but for the big bucks they hoped to make.

Pick your battles better, fellas. This one ain't a good one.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:44 AM

All those hundred of Guests that have floated in and out of this Site and I have one on my side, who are you?, there goes another nights sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 06:00 AM

Of all of the guests in all of the world...

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 01:07 PM

Now I can pretty well guarantee that, if the boot were on the other foot, and some big American Orchestra was pulling out of a tour because of some bureaucratic bullshit like this by the British Government, the people from this side of the water would be booing derisively.

And if some patriotic Briton started saying stuff defending the bureuacrats I can't see them getting much local sympathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 01:54 PM

McGrath you are right, it has to be said again and again.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:10 PM

"Now I can pretty well guarantee that, if the boot were on the other foot, and some big American Orchestraa was pulling of a tour because of some bureaucratic bullshit like this by the British Government, the people from this side of the water would be booing derisively.

"And if some patriotic Briton started saying stuff defending the bureuacrats I can't see them getting much local sympathy." Kevin NcGrath

No, you good man, you cannot do anything of the sort. First, it hasn't happened so we don't have an example of it.

And on the other and more telling hand, I believe the first response most of us US Mudcatters would have is to soundly agree with the criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:11 PM

Your opinions only.

No one is "defending" the bureaucrats, contrary to the way you choose to interpret our comments.   There are two sides to every story.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM

I believe the first response most of us US Mudcatters would have is to soundly agree with the criticism.

I'm sure you are right there Ebbie. Just as I'm aure I'm right in my guess about how most people here would react, in the situation I suggested. You get the odd exception, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:19 PM

Majority of opinion does not always mean it is the "right" answer.   Exceptions are not "odd", they are just different points of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:09 PM

I'm not clear, Ron. You have said you think the immigration authorities have got it wrong, but you then seem to be saying that the Halle Orchestra should have suppressed this story, which would have had to mean giving some fictitious reasons for why the tour which had already been announced had to be cancelled (and they wouldn't have been believed anyway - with 100 members knowing the truth and a good few other people, secrecy would have been completely impossible, and the outcome would have been a bigger story).

I can't prove it, but I am sure that in the hypothetical couterexample I gave, people here would in fact have been at least as rude about the British Government as they were about the Americans, and probably more so. And they'd probably been pretty scathing about anyone from here who seemed to be excusing the policy.

Fair enough, some people strayed over from criticising the authorities into making cracks about the States as such. But I would imagine the same would apply the other way round, it's inevitable. Cracks about "supeedyah culchah" "bunch of crybabies" "puling crybabies." And there hasn't exactly been a chorus of disapproval of the immigration authorities from Stateside so far as I can see,

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:19 PM

It seems to me that, in a rational world, it would cost a whole lot less—and be a helluva lot more friendly, especially considering the nature of the group and the purpose of their trip to the U. S.—for a couple of U. S. Embassy bureaucrats with rubber stamps to make the trip to Manchester and do the paperwork there than it would to make the whole orchestra to go to the trouble and expense of traveling to London and blowing a couple of days there just to participate in a ritual that would probably take about five minutes per person.

But then, what the hell do I know?

". . . and no music. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:59 PM

"I'm not clear, Ron. You have said you think the immigration authorities have got it wrong, but you then seem to be saying that the Halle Orchestra should have suppressed this story, which would have had to mean giving some fictitious reasons for why the tour which had already been announced had to be cancelled (and they wouldn't have been believed anyway - with 100 members knowing the truth and a good few other people, secrecy would have been completely impossible, and the outcome would have been a bigger story)."

No, that isn't what I said. I NEVERI do believe that there is a redtape scenario that the immigration authorities are trying to deal with.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 05:12 PM

Sorry, hit the submit button by accident. Let me start again.

"I'm not clear, Ron. You have said you think the immigration authorities have got it wrong, but you then seem to be saying that the Halle Orchestra should have suppressed this story, which would have had to mean giving some fictitious reasons for why the tour which had already been announced had to be cancelled (and they wouldn't have been believed anyway - with 100 members knowing the truth and a good few other people, secrecy would have been completely impossible, and the outcome would have been a bigger story)."

No, that isn't what I said at all. I NEVER said that the Orchestra should have suppressed the story. That appears to be something that you read into my comments and I'm not sure how.

I think the Orchestra may have jumped the gun and given up before exploring all the possibilities. I also think that the figures they gave are for ONE scenario, but not all.   

I do believe that there is a redtape scenario that the immigration authorities are trying to deal with. Don suggested someone go to Manchester with a rubber stamp. Well, the issue appears to be tied to computer equipment and lines for the fingerprinting process.   I'm not sure if a rubber stamp would cut it.   However, there may have been other work arounds, but the orchestra by all the stories I have read appear to have have given up - with over a year to go before this tour takes place. There is time to negotiate, and there method is to negotiate in the press, which I do not think is the best way to work this out.

Suppose you invite me to dinner. I say that I would like to eat on Thursday and could you come to New Jersey with the meal, and you say that Thursday is no good for you and the food would get cold if you delivered it. Should I then go to the press and say that McGrath has denied me the opportunity to eat?   No, I think we would try to work something out.   

As I've said from the beginning, I think the Orchestra did not give this a chance to be worked out.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 05:23 PM

I would imagine there are indeed some poor buggers who are trying to sort out the "redtape scenario" imposed by higher authority (whom I include within the expression "immigration authorities".)

But I think that the fact that this affair has come to light probably makes it more likely that it will be sorted out than would have been the case if it had been possible to keep it under wraps.

By "have got it wrong" I didn't mean that the rules and regulations had necessarily been misinterpreted. I mean that if the rules and regulationsn were as has been stated, and didn't allow for a degree of sensible flexibility, they were wrong in the first place. As is very often the case with rules and regulations - in all countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 05:24 PM

Dang. Kevin, I apologize. I didn't read your post carefully enough- I thought you were saying that if an American orchestra had run into that kind of roadblock that we UStaters would have been complaining loudly. Now I see that you were saying that if an American touring company had been blocked in the UK thatUKers would be mocking their own country's policies.

* I still am wondering if other countries ease and expedite travel for the orchestra.

* I also would like some return comment on people like Tommy Sands who come over here. What makes the difference?

* What's to stop a 100-piece orchestra - given a whole year's time - to make its way individually to a city less than 200 miles away to be "vetted"?

** Instead of unloading impotent discontent on the Mudcat how many of you - or us, for that matter - have made official complaints?

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 05:57 PM

I agree, Ron. Taking a long look at it, both parties could have done a whole lot more to try to accommodate each other. A screw-up all the way around.

Well, unless all kinds of people have their noses out of joint, they should be able to work it out yet. Let's hope.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 06:46 PM

Ebbie, 200 miles may be a doddle for you over there, for us it's a long journey. Also we are so London centred that people who don't live there are resentful about the fact that everything comes from there. This is more than just the US demanding that we put ourselves to great inconvenience, it's the London resentment added on top. For us it's the same as someone in Los Angeles being told they have to travel to New York for everything. Even when we have the chance to even things up we don't. Take the building of the new national football stadium. Instead of in the Midlands when the most anyone would have to travel is 200 miles, they've re-built it in London. For a Geordie from Newcastle, which is near the Scottish border this is a hell of a journey to see his team in a cup final. This all builds resentment. Every international art exhibition , every major play with the best actors.. we have to travel to London, London, London or we don't see it. These events never come to the rest of the country. For many of us London could be a separate nation, they get the best of everything. So for us this attitude of the USA's representatives over here is the straw on the camel's back. Somehow having to take the same arrogance from another country makes the anger double. I hope you can understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 06:57 PM

For many of us London could be a separate nation Roll on the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 08:27 PM

Guest, you make a good point. However, would you agree that it's alll in the head? In other words, 200 miles is 200 miles.

I recognize that highways vary- are you saying that there is no high speed highway between Manchester and London?

I remember before the interstate highways were installed across the US. Visually more interesting- but trips did take a lot longer.

But even then: They have a YEAR to get this task done. London is a big city with a great many attractions and essential features. I should think that most people could combine activities in an annual trip to London.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 05:12 PM

But why should they if they don't think it's worth it? It is a bit ruch really - they set up an obstacle course which could be designed to put people off the idea of going to the States,and then when people decide they won't be bothered, they get criticised for that.

Here's a piece about it from a Daily Telegraph website - the Daily Telegraph being the housesheet of Conservatism, the guys who think the current Tory Party is far too far over to the Left. Here

Here's a quote from that whch brings out soemthing missed so far:

"Nor can they just catch the dawn train to Euston en masse and turn up at mid-morning. Each person has to make his or her own separate appointment first, by phone - on that nightmare line that costs £1.30 a minute.

Why bother indeed?

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST,G
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 05:23 PM

"Why bother indeed?"

Good point! Why bother with this thread?

Answer: Because it is one more thing for the malcontents to have.

       Frankly and in the grand scheme of things, this is much ado
       about nothing. "When the going gets tough, the tough get
       get going." Obviously, the weak at heart will stay home.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 06:30 PM

So what are you doing posting to it GUEST G?

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 07:53 PM

From Seattle, one can be in Vancouver, B. C. in—what?—depending on traffic, less than three hours. I've been there dozens of times. John Dwyer used to go a couple of times a month to take in the Vancouver Song Circle meetings. Canadians zing down to Bellingham (just across the border) or to Seattle frequently. Hardly like "going to a foreign country" at all!

Crossing the border at Blaine (location of the Peace Arch) was no sweat. More often than not, you didn't even have to get out of your car. Crank down the window and the border guard would check your car registration, write down your license plate number, then ask you where you were from and what the purpose of your trip was ("Recreation" or "visiting friends" or "shopping") was perfectly satisfactory. He'd say something like, "Enjoy your stay," wave you through. On the way back, on the American side, the border guard would ask, "Do you have anything to declare?" or "Are you bringing back any alcoholic beverages?" If "yes," he might want to see a sales slip to see if there was any duty on your purchase (rare), or if it was alcohol, he'd tell you that you couldn't bring it into the country. Weird Washington State liquor laws and all. If "No," he'd just wave you through. Once in a great while he might ask you to open your luggage, but usually that was only if you were acting nervous or weird.   

Now they're telling us we have to get a %@#&*@!# passport!!!???

Like, with a 3,000 mile border, somebody who wanted to commit mayhem couldn't get across unnoticed!?? An acquaintance of mine said that she and her boyfriend used to bring drugs into the U. S. all the time by just taking a walk through the woods a mile or so from the check-points and crossing the border there. Barring radar, an electric chain-link fence topped with razor wire, a couple of moats full of alligators, and a battalion of vicious dogs, it would be pretty hard to keep someone in or out.

Just this morning, a security guard on routine patrol (you, know: walks by ever few hours) spotted someone sneaking out of a container on one of the docks on Seattle's waterfront. Story here. The container had been sitting there since 8:30 a.m. Tuesday. Since I live only a few miles from there, I'm a helluva lot more concerned about a dirty bomb smuggled in on a container ship (only 4% of the containers are inspected beyond simply looking at the manifest) than I am about the possible evil intentions of some renegade bassoon player.

Somebody in the Hallé Orchestra is going to smuggle a nuclear bomb into the U. S. in a tuba case?

All this kind of stuff does is needlessly hassle the harmless folks.

Stupid politicians! Stupid bureaucrats!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 08:11 PM

Before some nit-picker jumps on me for my 4% inspection figure, in the Seattle Times story, Customs and Border Protection spokesman Mike Milne says that five or six percent of containers are flagged for inspection. But my figure comes from the Seattle Port Commissioner, who stated on a radio interview a few weeks ago that only four percent are actually inspected beyond simply looking at the manifest.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 03:53 AM

are you saying that there is no high speed highway between Manchester and London?

Depends a lot. I take that trip about six times a year. Sometimes it takes a little under 4 hours each way. On one occasion last year it took nearly eight each way (and that was just the volume of traffic, not roadworks). The route I take is almost entirely highways (M25, M1, M6)

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 04:10 AM

99 is the new 100.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Stu
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 05:33 AM

100 is the old 100

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 05:38 AM

All People That On Earth Do Dwell is the old 100

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:55 AM

Was attempting to point out the uselessness of this thread, McGrath.
Alas, not many will recognize that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 08:22 AM

Was attempting to point out the uselessness of this thread

Clearly something that really needed to be done...

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:42 AM

"Now they're telling us we have to get a %@#&*@!# passport!!!???"

Unless it has changed, the requirements for U.S. Citizens entering Canada is that they need to provide proof of citizenship. A passport has been "recommended" as it speeds up the process since everything supposedly has been checked out.

No system is perfect, obviously. Does it deter? I don't think we can adequately guage.   Sure, there are "loopholes" that will get people into this country, as well as dirty bombs and such. Those issues are being tracked.

Are we paranoid? Of course, overly paranoid. We are not alone. In the U.K. there was a story this week of a person who was detained because they were heard singing the words to a Clash song by a taxi driver. Last year after the tragic bombings an individual was shot to death because they were "mistaken" for a terrorist by authorities.   There is a lot of work to be done, but there are also ways to work with the system.

This is not a "useless" thread if it promotes dialogue and opens people up to different ideas. It becomes useless if we only rely on our preconceived and often stereotypical ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 03:47 PM

Yes, Ron, the requirements to return to the US from Canada is changing. In 2007(or 2008?) they will demand a passport.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 04:04 PM

Thanks, Ebbie.

I do know whereof I speak, Ron. THIS is what I am referring to.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 04:21 PM

Thanks Don, I never said you didn't know what you were speaking about. Relax!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 04:23 PM

And I'd be very surprised if anyone has anything fvaoutavble to to say about those cock-ups by the UK authorities.

I go back again to the distinction I made earlier between restrictions which are genuinely designed to reduce risks to the public, and restrictions which are essentially there to provide some kind of cover for the authorities.

Imposing tighter restrictions on people who are going to a country for a limited stay, with the intention of doing some kind of work while they are there rather than merely sightseeing, very evidently does nothing whatsoever to reduce the danger from terrorism. Nor does it do anything to reduce the likelihood of people overstaying.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 04:55 PM

Something just occurred to me:   how does all of this fit into Bush's pushing his "guest worker" program?

Don Firth