BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.

Subject: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 02:44 AM

The famous Manchester Halle Orchestras tour of the US has been called off, the Orchestra members were told that they had to go to London to the US Embassy to be vetted[grilled] before they would be issused with Visas.

You couldn`t make it up, it would have made a good April fools day scam,
The Orchestra decided that the journey to and from London would entail too much expense so they have called off their Tour of the US.

The mind boggles too many French Horns.


Thanks to the US this is a non-musical Thread

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: sian, west wales
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:42 AM

I heard that on the news this morning. Well - it was bound to happen. And bound to happen again. I believe that the Halle is very popular in the USA. I always think of it for its rendition of the Welsh piece, Suo Gan, which was made popular as the running theme in the film, "Empire of the Sun".

Another folk connection: I know at least one folk agent in the USA who is booking more and more clients from the UK to Canadian festivals to avoid a lot of the visa issues. And I know of one Welsh group which had a tour booked for 2003 so applied for visas in 2002. They're still waiting to hear - and obviously cancelled the tour. They've been advised by another agent that there isn't anything they can do to move things along and that they probably won't even get an explanation.

And these UK visa proposals are going to drop us in it this side of the water too.

"The wounds of the world being bound up in red tape."

siân

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:49 AM

Just a question- it seems that whenever Sian posts, the font of the thread as viewed here (Firefox 1.5) changes to large, open characters. It's also noticeable that the accent on her a comes out as a Korean character apparently meaning "window".

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 06:30 AM

Haven't the Yanks got any Orchestras of their own then?

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 06:39 AM

It has also been reported that a number of Rock Bands have pulled out of US tours as they found all of the red tape connected with the obtaining of visas wasn`t worth the bother.

John Summers the Halles chief executive said each Orchestra member would have been requested to go to London after phoning to arrange an interview at the Embassy. He added that the US Visa service will not use Consulates outside London, Summers added," this palaver of getting Visas is mind blowing".

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Arnie
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 06:53 AM

Do we all, as UK Cits, have to get visas to visit the US?? My mate has just gone over there on holiday and for a few cajun gigs and he never mentioned getting a visa. If this really is the case, then I trust that there is at least reciprocity. Perhaps it's just for performers, but it's a pretty sorry state of affairs when concerts and bookings are cancelled - seems like the terrorists have gained at least one of their aims by sowing such distrust between supposed allies!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:56 AM

No, not everyone, Arnie. If you are going just for a holiday there is a form you fill in on the plane or at the airort and that suffices for a visa. Certain restrictions apply like no known terrorist affiliations (Would you tell them?) apply. I guess if your mate included the gigs as part of his hols rather than work he may get away with it.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Pied Piper
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 08:03 AM

The US takes another step up it's own arse.
Given the number of venally evil organisations in America such as the KKK and the American Nazis, I hope we're reciprocating.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 08:30 AM

My son and his wife had to fly back to the UK from the US in order to renew their visas to stay in the US. They had to fly down to London and pay for one night in an hotel, so that they could be interviewed. They then flew back to Glasgow, picked up my grandson, and flew back to the US where they have been living and working for the last 5 years.
Lunacy? Of course it is.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 09:31 AM

It's not just the US that does that, a colleagues wife has just flown back to Australia to get her visa for the UK renewed. I suppose its a good way of making sure you don't just slip away if your visa application is denied.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: open mike
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 10:10 AM

when north side records organized a Nordic / Scandinavian festival in
Minnesota (as they do every year) they found that they needed their congressman or senator (now no longer with us, Paul Wellstone) to push
for the Visas to be approved so the performers could get to the U.S.

this non-support of cultural embassadors is not serving to unite the sworld!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 03:03 PM

I don't understand the variables in this. Tommy Sands, for instance, has never mentioned any difficulty in getting permission to perform in the US. He even tours in a number of states.

Many Canadian citizens come to Juneau for the Alaska Folk Festival (next week!) and perform here. They, of course, stay only a week or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 07:40 AM

A former colleague has an Indian passport but is a British citizen. She got bounced back from Heathrow to New York because her visa had expired whilst they were in the US, despite being told that as a British citizen it would make no difference. When she landed at New York she was told she had to get her visa done in the UK, because they couldn't do it there in less than a week. She eventually had to spend an extra 2 weeks in the US and damn nearly lost her job because of it.

These days airlines are refusing to let you fly if your passport expires in less than 6 months from the date of your flights. Consequently, I'm having to renew my passport and apply for one for Limpit, even though I still have 4 months left on our old one and I'm going to an EU country!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:51 PM

Sure the restrictions are tight - probably too tight. Still, the opportunity is there. The Halle Orchestra made the decision themselves, they were not shut out of coming. People who are looking to blame the U.S. will jump on the opportunity as Sian did, but at least have the decency not to cloud the facts with bias. Shameful.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:22 PM

"Still the opportunity is there" Ron please, this Orchestra consisting of over 100 members were asked to travel to London at a cost of £45,000 which they could not afford.

The red-tape from the US Embassy is insulting to this renouned Orchestra, the oldest in England. it`s a waste of time to say that these creeps should be ashamed of themselves, but, at least their citizens should get off their knees and tell them so.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:23 PM

So 100 members should be blindly let into the country just because they are part of an orchestra?   Nice!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:31 PM

I apologize Sian, I did not mean to attribute that comment to you. My apologies for the error.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:44 PM

Well we know what these symphony boys are like, you couldn`t trust one of them, and my God 100 of these potential terroists invading the evil empire .now we couldn`t have that.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:03 PM

Well at least you admit it Ard!!

Seriously, unless you have some sort of insight that the rest of us do not, how the hell do you know what is in their minds? You can't live by what a sterotype of a terroist should be. No one said that these musicians would be shut out. Sorry if they had to travel, but their reason for coming to the United States would have been to earn money.

I am not defending our policies, but there is more than just one side to the story. Too many people are shut out because they are overwhelmed by the bullshit. There has to be compromises.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Kaleea
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:07 PM

Thank you, dubblepew, for once again proving that since you were placed into office, the axis of evil is your desire to be emperor of the planet & now stupidity reigns in the land formerly known as the "land of the free." Now, if you'll all pardon me as I go off to sing "this land ain't your land, this land ain't my land . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:13 PM

Ron I am beginning to worry about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:32 PM

Nothing to worry about. I'm not going to vote Republican or join the NRA or anything like that.

I hate the restrictions that are placed on visitors to and from this country. We seem to forget what this country stood for in terms of opening doors.

However, I am sick of everyone who whines about the problem and assumes that there is an easy solution. It isn't that simple!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:40 PM

So 100 members should be blindly let into the country just because they are part of an orchestra?   Nice!!!!

Any idea how many US troops and ancilliary workers are in the UK without a visa, Ron?

Which US citizens have visa's to let them in Iran? Nicaragua?

Don't get me wrong - I am not saying that the US are the only one to expect free passage. But they do seem to be the only ones to expect one way traffic!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:53 PM

I'm not disagreeing with you Dave. We should not be the cops of the world, and that is a huge problem with our current administration. At one point England seemed to have a bigger problem with going where they do not belong.   I guess they learned their lesson, but even now they still stick their nose where it doesn't belong.   

With all due respect, your reaction is a knee-jerk. When you mix the issues like you just did then the solution becomes harder to find.

The Visa issues stem from a paranoia created by a real attack on this country. Did we go overboard, sure. Should the checks have been tighter than they were, I think most people would say yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:58 PM

Heavens, Ron is a Democrat, makes you shudder to think what the Bush voters opinions are.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:03 PM

There you go again Ard.   Because I won't vote Republican automatically makes me a Democrat? That is what I was getting at about assumptions. You painted a picture of our Visa procedures that was clouded by your feelings about the U.S.   That is what is wrong with the world today.   Instead of finding common ground people end up just creating more divisions.

If we can't deal with each other we will never solve the bigger problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:07 PM

If you don`t vote for either gang who do you vote for?, not a hell of a lot of choice in the land of the free.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:15 PM

Now you are making assumptions Guest. I assume you do not live in the U.S. or you would realize that your statement is silly.   

Sure the 2 party system rules this country, but that doesn't mean are choices are limited. That may sound crazy, but we do not have to register for either party. We can vote for whoever we choose. Change comes slowly, but it will come.

I did a little resarch into the story that Ard partially shared with us.   Since 9/11, the U.S. has required that fingerprints appear on Visas. Apparently this can only be done at the consulate, which happens to be in London. This also applies to Visas for people who are coming to the US to WORK. There are different rules for visitors. The Orchestra, which previously appeared at the Hollywood Bowl, was scheduled to play at Lincoln Center this tour.   Apparently the cost of obtaining the Visas would have cut into the profits making this not worth their while.

Again, the redtape and paranoia is a bit much. My beef is that people are only looking at one side instead of trying to find a compromise.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:19 PM

The one thing you can guarantee is that any competent terrorist group is going to be able to get around this kind of stuff. Not exactly difficult.

It seems pretty obvious that the purpose of this is nothing to do with actually reducing the risk of terrorist activity, it's about bureaucrats protecing their own backs. When there is another big terrorist atrocity in the States, likely enough by someone who has been living there all their lives, the idea is to be able to give a great list of "precautions" that had been carried out.

Maybe we'll get back to the old days when American musicians weren't generally able to perform in England, and I imagine the other way round for the States. That had some good consequences at times actually, and a lot of musicians here owed their professional careers to that situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:20 PM

Anyway, why isn't this counted as a music thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:33 PM

I, speaking only for myself, feel it is idiocy to place the same restrictions on EVERYONE when so many security failures in genuinely serious areas take place daily!

"Does that mean, Bill...that you support *gasp* PROFILING??"

Why, yes, as a matter of fact, I do....and orchestras get preferential treatment...(except for those dangerous oboes, which as we all know, are an ill wind which nobody blows good)

I, personally, have witnessed little old ladies being pulled from line and searched at airports, while swarthy guys with furtive looks were allowed in with barely a glance......I know, I know...we must be **FAIR** and unbiased....fine. If that sounds petty and unreasonable, sue me. I want a PRACTICAL policy, not a politically correct policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:34 PM

From the Associated Press:

"Getting visas for the 80 musicians and 20 others would have required a trip for all of them from the orchestra's home base of Manchester to London, a 300-kilometer (190-mile) journey. The cost estimate included the 63 pound (US$100; ?90) visa fee, transportation to London, an overnight stay and wages for two days"

Lets do the math. The visa itself would cost 63 pounds - or a total of 6300 pounds.   The remaining 38,700 pounds would be spent in travel, wages and hotels? Hmmm. I guess you do not have Motel 6 in England.

Granted 190 miles is a long trip, but it could be done in one very long day. A bit uncomfortable I will grant you, but it could be done.

The story continues, with quotes from Andy Ryans, the orchestra's marketing director.

" Ryans said the U.S. Embassy wasn't willing to interview and fingerprint all of the orchestra members in one day.

Many travellers, including British citizens, can enter the United States as tourists without a visa, but anyone intending to work in the country must get one before traveling.

Rick Roberts, a spokesman for the U.S. Embassy, said there was no record of the orchestra's trying to have all of its members come on one day but that the number of artists applying for visas had increased each year since 2003.

U.S. visa requirements were tightened after Sept. 11, 2001. Three years after the terrorist attacks, most foreigners entering the United States were required to be interviewed and fingerprinted before getting a visa.

John Caulfield, in charge of U.S. consular affairs, said the embassy makes arrangements for many groups.

"I think there was a misunderstanding," Caulfield said. "They all have to apply individually, but we could have done it at a time that worked for the orchestra." "

This was also a tour for 2007. I may be naive, but it sounds like something could have been worked out.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:32 PM

I guess the cost of a cheap day return train ticket to London has gone up a lot since I was last there.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 06:48 PM

So if you want to come into your country to blow up something, there's no great problem if it's in the course of a holiday trip - but if you're down as doing a gig of some kind while you are there they check you out rigorously. Somehow that seems the wrong way round.

What a strange place. I remember when I went to the States many years ago being asked at the passport control in New York whether I had any intention of overthrowing the government of the United States. I was tempted to say "Not unless the opportunity arises in the course of my visit", but I bit my lip and kept quiet. These guys don't like jokers, and I could tell they didn't much like my hair and my beard anyway.

"Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad"

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:09 PM

"So if you want to come into your country to blow up something, there's no great problem if it's in the course of a holiday trip - but if you're down as doing a gig of some kind while you are there they check you out rigorously. Somehow that seems the wrong way round."

No, if you want to come into this country to make money you will be scrutinized. Everyone who comes into this country will be scrutinized as well. Terrorism has a way of making people paranoid that is very true.

What people seem to be conveniently ignoring is the fact that this trip is over a year away, there appears to be a lack of communication (probably on both parts) and the orchestra gave up. They threw out a figure and everyone is feeling sorry for them. The U.S. was not charging them 45000 pounds, that is a figure they produced.   There appears to be signs that the Embassy might have been able to work something out for them, but the orchestra seemed just as inflexible in the stories I've read.

Again, it is convenient to only look at the "facts" that support pre-conceived notions. Some things will never change.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:25 PM

"Thanks to the US this is a non-musical Thread " Absolute nonsense. This was not the fault of the US, but of some puling crybabies.

The orchestra objected to making a 200 mile trip to obtain visas? 200 miles? Less than a five hour drive? What'sa matta dem guys?

They could have driven to London the day before, stayed over one night and bright and early the next day begun the process. Even if they weren't finished until 5:00 PM, they could still have been home before midnight.

And you guys take this seriously? pttuuuii! I'll never again think of you as somehow superior to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:46 PM

Washington DC is about 235 miles from my home in Northern, NJ. On a number of occasions I've driven down in the morning, stayed for an event in the afternoon, then driven back that evening. Bus trips are even easier.

With over a YEAR before the trip, this orchestra could have worked it out.

The saying goes "where there is a will there is a way". Unfortunately for these folks the way was to whine and play the vicitim and try to dredge up sympathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 03:28 AM

Driving in England is VERY different to driving in the USA. It will take 5 hours just to do the trip from Manchester to London, and another 5 hours going back, without the wait in between. Whilst the US aren't charging them 45000 pounds, that is part of the additional costs. Train tickets are hideously expensive here in the UK too so rule that out please. Cheap day return indeed - no such thing. The last time I went to Manchester it cost over 120 pounds for a day return.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:01 AM

With all due respect, your reaction is a knee-jerk.

and So 100 members should be blindly let into the country just because they are part of an orchestra?   Nice!!!! isn't, I guess?

The one rule for America and one for the rest of the world seems to be well documented, Ron:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 07:41 AM

No, if you want to come into this country to make money you will be scrutinized.

That's what I meant by "gig" - any kind of paid work. It appears that scrutiny is tighter in such cases than it is for leisure travel - and that's what seems daft. If there were any grounds for this kind of difference it would be the leisure travellers you'd watch out for. I mean, why arrange a job when you are going over there to blow up the Pentagon?

I imagine that if other countries were to apply the same kind of rules to Americans, so that processing travel arrangements had to involve making a trip to Washington, that wouldn't go down too well in places like California, Alaska and Hawaii...

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:29 AM

It's strange how so many musically inclined people seem to be missing the fact that it is an orchestra we are talking about. You can't just send 20% away to get visas one day, another 20% the next and so on. And of course an orchestra is a business. They look at the projected costs and return on playing at one set of theatres and compare them with the equivalent figures for elsewhere. Add in the fact that the visa trip to London would also cost them a least one and possibly several days of not earning any income (or equivalent rehearsal time) and so on and so forth, and they've come to the conclusion that visiting the US under the current procedures is uneconomic. That's not saying the processes are right or wrong, efficient or inefficient: its just book-keeping.

I heard that they asked if there was any way the US consulate could send 1 person up to where they were, rather than send 100 down to where he/she was but apparently the consulate considered that was out of the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:03 AM

"The one rule for America and one for the rest of the world seems to be well documented, Ron:-)"

Dave, I'm surprised at you for using Fox News tactics - mixing in an unrelated but highly emotional story to try to draw a connection between the two stories. Hey, wait a minute - that is what Bush did to get us into this mess in Iraq in the first place!

Sure, I do a agree with you about the US going where they do not belong. But it is still a separate issue. This orchestra has opportunites to get the visas and NOT spend the cash that they are mentioning.   It is a 5 hour drive to DC from here, and it can be done. Not a comfortable day for anyone, but if they truly want to make this work they could.

My guess is that this is just a ploy to draw sympathy. From the stories I've read, it does seem that the embassy wanted to work with them. They could not go to Manchester because moving the equipment required is prohibitive. This orchestra does not play 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year. With a year to go before this trip they could have made arrangements to get everyone down there if they truly wanted this to work.

The way it stands, the orchestra felt that they could not afford it. That is a business decision.   I would love to own a radio station - but the costs for licenses and equipment are prohibitive. Should I go whining to the press to complain I am being held back from doing radio because of this?

Look, this is a case of redtape pure and simple. The requirements may be too strict, I won't disagree.   Still, the facts from what I have read in several reports seem to indicate more of an unwillingness to compromise on the part of the orchestra. For everyone to use this as another opportunity to knock the entire country of the United States is just stupid. Don't cloud the issues!

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:17 PM

Who's knocking "the entire country of the United States"? All people have been saying is that you've got some really silly people and some really silly ways of doing things. Would anyone actually disagree with that? Noone is implying that the USA is unique in that respect, just that your stupid things are sometimes different from other people's stupid things.

"They could not go to Manchester because moving the equipment required is prohibitive." What kind of equipment is that then?

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 06:29 PM

"Who's knocking "the entire country of the United States"? :

1. Thanks to the US this is a non-musical Thread
2. The US takes another step up it's own arse.
3. now stupidity reigns in the land formerly known as the "land of the free." Now, if you'll all pardon me as I go off to sing "this land ain't your land, this land ain't my land . . ."
4. What a strange place.

Just a few examples from this thread. Read other threads and you will find sentiment not directed against our government but the country and the people who live here. We don't blame you or your country because the faults of your government.

If you aren't happy with the rules, work to make change. This orchestra decided to work it out in the press.   I won't be surprised to see this worked out and the orchestra appears at Lincoln Center next year. It is probably a lazy way of dealing with the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 07:09 PM

I won't be surprised to see this worked out and the orchestra appears at Lincoln Center next year.

Nor would I. And issuing a press release about it, which I imagine is what they did, sounds like a sensible way to help bring that about. Stupidity flourishes best in the dark, so bringing it into the light can sometimes work wonders. (And if this had been the British government laying down these kinds of rules over giving passports for the orchestra, for example, you can guarantee it would have been publicly humiliated and crucified.)

Everybody gets knocked and teased from time to time. Getting riled at that kind of thing just encourages it. As the saying almost goes "the bigger they are, the harder they fall for it"...

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:06 AM

Dead on McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 09:50 AM

Well at least we agree on something. At least we all seem to realize the orchestra was using this as an excuse and they could have made it work.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 02:55 PM

Ron You are a good example of US pig-headness.

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 04:10 PM

There you go again. Once again, you take cheap shots and rely on sterotypes. Shameful Ard.

Just because someone does not agree with you does not make it pigheaded. Sorry Ard, but I resented the slanted way you presented your information. I dug up additional information that shows that there are two sides to the story. You choose to remain steadfast in your preconceived notions, so tell me how that makes ME pigheaded?

Subject: RE: BS: Halle Orchestras tour of US called off.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:36 PM

Is it really being seriously sugggested that there is some duty to keep shtum when you come up against some bit of bureaucratic foolishness, rather than kicking up a fuss, which might possibly get things sorted out, so helping both you and other people in the future?

There are a lot of people who do actually believe that. Actually that kind of embarrassment about kicking up a fuss is probably more in line with the English stereotype , whereas the stereotype American is seen as more likely to go to the other extreme.

All stereotypes oversimplify reality - though most stereotypes probably do contain some aspect of truth, the truth always contains a number of other aspects.

I am firm in my opinions, you are obstinate, he is pigheaded...