Classical music - what makes you listen?

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Grab
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 12:38 PM

Don, I'm not denying that there's emotion in the storyline of operas.

We could also say that Jean-Claude Van Damme films have emotional content. Let's take "Kickboxer" for an example. His brother is a champion kickboxer, Van Damme isn't nearly as good. Then his brother gets paralysed by the bad guy hitting him when he's down, and Van Damme finds someone to train him up to get revenge. His brother gets kidnapped before the fight, so Van Damme basically stands there and gets beat up. Meantime his trainer raids the bad guy's place and frees Van Damme's brother, and Van Damme then fights back and demolishes the bad guy. Lots of emotion in that storyline, for sure.

Now take a guess at how much emotion you see Jean-Claude Van Damme (or pretty much any of the cast) putting in... ;-)

As far as I can see, the majority of operatic singers are hired on the basis of maintaining a decent tone at high volumes (which as you say is a rare ability in itself), and not on their ability to portray a character (which is also a rare ability). So this is rather like hiring people for a martial arts film based on whether they can do a jumping spinning back kick, rather than on acting ability. There will be some who can do both, but simple statistics tells you that they're going to be the minority.

I'm not saying that opera can't be performed by people with the ability to inject emotional content and acting into their performance - or for that matter that martial arts films can't be well-acted. I'm just saying that the vast majority of both aren't. Done well, they can be things of beauty. Done as most of them are, they're interesting for the technical ability of the participants, and nothing more.

All opera singers can do huge volume levels, wide vibrato, amazing range, etc. That doesn't mean that they *should*. That's the problem as I see it - an excess of technical ability and an insufficient amount of emotional involvement in the character to know when to use it.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Helen
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 08:00 AM

Al, you don't need to bug off at all. Your opinions are welcome. I was trying to say in my post of 09 Apr 06 - 05:41 PM that there is some classical music I don't like listening to, but there are other pieces that I could listen to over and over. There are a myriad of styles of music within the "classical" label, and there are also a myriad of interpretations of pieces which can change my opinion of the piece, from love to hate, or vice versa, or from love or hate to indifference.

Helen

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 06:10 AM

Raggy,
       You swine!

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 05:54 AM

100 hiya Ted & Terry

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Al
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 01:00 AM

Me too, Kendall. Except for the Beatles. For those who say exposure to orchestral music early in life might have caused an appreciation for classical, certainly that could be true. My apologies to those I seem to have offended by my remarks. Please understand that I'm not judging classical as good or bad. I am simply sharing my personal feelings about it. Others' feelings may reasonably differ. I am not attached to any need to post here on this thread though, and if you would prefer, I would be willing to bug off.
Blessings,
Al

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 08:54 PM

Al, I feel the same way about rock and rap. Noise.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Helen
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 03:40 PM

Yesterday on the Oz classical station, as I was driving home, I heard Alison Krauss singing Simple Gifts with just a cello accompaniment, played by Yo Yo Ma. Perfect bell-like voice, perfect accompaniment! What an experience to hear that!

Just before that was Alice Giles playing My Old Kentucky Home on the concert harp.

ABC-FM plays a wide variety of music, including folk, jazz & world music, which would not come under the "classical" label, but which fits in completely with much of the classical music they play. They play crossover music as well: music which is a fusion of different styles.

And, about Joplin's Treemonisha. I have an idea - you talented people in the US - why don't you stage it yourselves? (Serious question - not a joke.)

In Oz a folkie called Chris Kempster (now deceased), back in the early 60's, was the driving force behind a musical stage play called Reedy River based on Oz (colonial - not Aboriginal) folk songs. Out of that he then was involved in the national children's radio music broadcasts for schools. My sister & I were in primary school at that stage and we had singing sessions based on those broadcasts. I still have a couple of the books with the songs in them.

Out of those broadcasts I am sure that a love of folk music was inspired in many people and that it heavily influenced the folk scene across Australia.

So, my question is a serious one: why don't you talented people stage Treemonisha? (And make a DVD to sell so I don't miss out. :-)   )

Helen

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 08:45 PM

Then there was Beecham's possibly apocryphal answer to the question "Have you ever conducted any Stockhausen?"

"No, but I think I once trod on some."

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Helen
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:41 PM

Carol,

Al wasn't attacking any of the posters but only stating an opinion. Opinions are welcome, even if they disagree with the majority of posters in the thread.

I have heard classically trained musicians play without heart and soul, only concerned with technical excellence, and I used to get annoyed by "classical music" as a whole and then as I heard more (and more - there is so much of it, I'm afraid I'll never hear enough of it in my life) I started to realise that what I thought about Wordsworth as a poet (schmaltzy) applies to some styles or compositions of classical music. There are some other styles or composers that don't appeal to me like the pompous and overdramatic, and the screechy female voices, and the chamber music type which is more like background music, but there are others that do.

And the ones that do appeal to me can get to my heart and soul like nothing else.

Helen

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:55 PM

Carol, depends on the subject of the music thread. We've had some pretty heated music discussions, too.

AR282, thanks, again. Loss of one's compositions is my brother's nightmare. My children have pledged to him, as have I, that his manuscripts, tapes, etc. will be preserved no matter what, but I think he's heard so many horror stories it's difficult for him to believe we will do so. One thing's for sure, I know none of us would ever, ever wrap up sandwiches in it!

I think self-doubt is a plague to him and others such as have been mentioned in this thread. I've known him to throw out early compositions and my mother to go dig them out of the trash. Part of that self-doubt comes from old professors who told him his stuff was terrible because it tonal when everything was supposed to be avant-garde/atonal. It has taken a lot of years to get those voices of authority out of the mix.

He rants and raves about "why should I even write this, who is going to hear/play/pay for it?" I always tell him, "Because no one else can write it as you would. AND, because we have the internet and a lot of other resources we didn't have when we first started out on producing and promoting his music." I remind him, they are like his children and it is not fair to compare them, i.e. he'll want to toss one compo because it doesn't sound as good as a completely different one.

The life of a classical composer is tortured and sublime, just like the book title about Mozart, "The Sacred and Profane."

kat

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:17 PM

>>Thank you, AR282. I'd heard of Treemonisha, but not from someone who has actually heard it, completely. You have certainly piqued my interest in it, now.<<

Great! That's why I write about "Treemonisha" every chance I get. I like seeing classical music posts in any forum because I'll always work in Joplin's opera. I just want people to hear it. The music is amazing, beautiful, stirring. He had such a way of putting notes together. It can actually bring me to tears. I listen to it and keep asking, "How the hell did he come up with that? How did he pull that off? How could anyone capture something that way??"

It saddens me greatly when I think of his other opera being lost. It would have been THE example of a ragtime opera. He did perform it live with his brothers and it was fairly succesful for them and got raves and write-ups. Now, it's just gone. There are a few titles for Joplin rags that have no music to go with them. We have discovered Joplin pieces here and there. His Silver Swan Rag piano roll was found by a collector in 1971 in the bottom of a pianola he had bought 15 years before and it sat in his garage. We never heard of this piece before and, naturally, it is beautiful. A solitary 1901 article mentions a Joplin piece not seen or mentioned anywhere else called A Blizzard. If not for this sole article, we'd never know there was such a piece. During his dementia the year before his death, Joplin was caught burning his manuscripts and had to be restrained. He appears to have burned about half of them if not more so god knows what was lost forever.

Recently, ragtimer Reginald Robinson of Chicago was studying a Joplin exhibit photo from the 40s. A former Joplin student wanted his master to be remembered so he got Joplin's wife to set up some of her husband's remaining manuscripts on his piano and have someone photograph it so he could use it in the exhibit. She did and this was the photo Reginald was studying when he noticed one of the manuscripts on the piano was the 2nd page of something never published or seen. The photo was housed at Fisk University in Memphis, so Reginald and ragtime enthusiast Chris Ware went to Memphis and studied the original photo with a magnifying glass. It had lyrics--something Joplin never did other than with his opera. Was this something from "Treemonisha" that he cut out or forgot to add? Was it from another possible opera he might have been working on? Reginald recorded it and it certainly has that amazing Joplin note combination and seems very full, dynamic and symphonic and I would say it was definitely something of the operatic nature. Reginald puts the manuscript at about 1910. Whatever happened to it?

So, really, we can conclude that what survives of Joplin today is only a small portion of his work. I estimate that we only have at best perhaps a quarter of Joplin's true output. Only a tiny portion of that is ever likely to be recovered in the future. Believe it or not, we really know very little about our country at the time ragtime was popular. We really know very little about the early 1900s and 1910s. The vast majority of the music from that period is lost. We haven't heard anywhere near the true amount of ragtime that was around at that period. And considering the racial attitude of America at that period, it is remarkable that much of anything survives of a black musical genius of rare brilliance. And if he had lived longer, what would he have accomplished? I guess we're lucky to have anything of Joplin's at all. Thank god we have Treemonisha. We're really, really lucky we have it.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:07 PM

I agree, katlaughing. But my understanding is that the above the line music section has a different etiquette than the BS section.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:58 PM

Carol, it happens all of the time on Mudcat. We've never been able to have an "I like astrology/spirituality, etc." thread without someone coming in and denigrating the thread and its posters.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:35 PM

Maybe, Ron. But it looks to me like it just puts everyone on the defensive without changing anybody's mind about anything.

I don't need to feel any better or more fortunate than people who don't share my tastes in music. But I like to be able to enjoy the kinds of music I like without being attacked for it. It's a two way street... for all of us.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: autolycus
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:22 PM

Incidentally, can anyone direct me to where I can discover who play the wild version of the William Tell galop on the Lone Ranger soundtrack?

Al and others - I must tell the story of the composer Vaughan Williams, who, on putting down his baton at the end of a rehearsal of his own most violent work,his 4th Symphony, aparently remarked "Well, if that's your modern music, you can keep it."


   Ivor

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:21 AM

AR--

Joplin's relations with his community are intriguing---thanks for that background. It definitely sounds like the Houston Opera recording is worth getting--and it's too bad some more of the pieces from the opera don't get wider exposure--maybe they will later.

It's interesting to note that Thomas Dorsey--of "Precious Lord" and other gospel music-- also had rocky relations with his community. They didn't like his persona of Georgia Tom, under which he did some real risque stuff (for the era).

But I'm creeping away from the thread.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:07 AM

Carol--

It's worthwhile to get anybody's perspective. And possibly to speculate on why somebody would feel that way. I still think that if Al had been able to play clarinet in an orchestra, he might well be more positively inclined towards classical music. I'm just sorry for anybody who doesn't appreciate its richness. They're missing a lot--and I think classical fans realize that it does definitely in fact have unlimited "soul". We don't need to prove anything.

And, as I said, people who only appreciate classical are also missing a lot. We should count ourselves lucky that we appreciate such a wide variety of music--and have the chance to hear it--and make it.

Let's hear it for music addicts of all kinds--(leaving aside the hot topic of whether rap is in fact music).

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:49 PM

Al, I can certainly understand that you don't like classical music. Everyone has different tastes in music, and everyone has a right to their own tastes. What I don't understand is, why you feel a need to come on a thread that is clearly stated as being for people who do like classical music to talk about why they like it, and trash classical music.

You don't have to like it, but why do you need to disrupt a discussion between people who do like it? We have just as much right to our own personal tastes in music as you do.

Why not just talk about the kinds of music you like on threads that are about those kinds of music?

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:52 PM

Thank you, AR282. I'd heard of Treemonisha, but not from someone who has actually heard it, completely. You have certainly piqued my interest in it, now.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 08:26 PM

I don't think Joplin had the eradication of religion in mind. Rather it was the dogmatic, superstitious aspect of it that he hated. For him, the ultimate message of religion should be along the lines of "be nice and fair to other folks and most of them will be nice and fair to you in return." Shouting scripture while condemning ragtime and doing their best to keep it from their communities was just inexplicable to someone like Joplin who lived and loved his music and just wanted to spread it around for other people to enjoy. He never held a job that wasn't related to playing and/or writing music. It was what he was and what he did and he obviously resented being called immoral for it.

But it's fairly clear that Joplin was not going to waste his time flirting with religion. He had no use for it and no use for religious fanatics attacking him. But I think as long as a religious community had the idea of education being the key to success, Joplin would have no quarrel with them. IOW, I don't think he was anti-religion in the sense of challenging their doctrines. He showed no indications that he cared in the slightest what they believed just so long as they behaved themselves.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:38 PM

That's fascinating. The only thing I would say is that in fact throwing away religion has not been considered necessary--or even a good idea. It's hard to imagine Martin Luther King without his strong faith.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:30 PM

I've never seen it live but I have the Deutsche Grammophon 2-CD set by the Houston Grand Opera--as far as I know it is the only version commercially available.

"A Real Slow Drag" is the finale (and supposedly stolen from Joplin by Irving Berlin who then made "Alexander's Ragtime Band" out of it which infuriated Joplin). But the overture is quite dynamic. "We're Goin Around" is a ringshout used by Joplin to show that square dancing has more in common with the ringshout than English country dancing that we always assume it was derived from.

I love the Aria "The Sacred Tree" sung by Treemonisha's mother. Wagner (whom Joplin idolized) never wrote anything lovelier. It's beautiful and in 3/4 time without breaking into a waltz groove. It somehow remains freeflowing.

As theatre the opera is not strong. Joplin was very ill at the time he was trying to get it down in final form and the plot is sketchy but the music more than makes up for it. It is truly glorious and distinctly black-American. For example, there is a sermon called "Good Advice" which is a typical black call & response church number. It is indescribably lovely despite the fact that Joplin obviously disdained Christianity and stripped the sermon of all religious content. But he recognized how important the music is to American culture and "Good Advice" was his tribute to it and it is about as lovely a piece as i have ever heard.

"We Will Rest Awhile" is sung by field hands but is done in barbershop quartet harmonies because that is the genesis of the barbershop quartet (I saw barbershop quartet competition on PBS once and all the acts were older white people and one blue-haired old lady with a beautiful voice recited the history of barbershop quarteting and the first thing she said was that it is an "African-American musical form").

"Prelude to Act III" is a lovely instrumental with a delicate interplay of violin and cello at the end that I think is just chillingly beautiful--like two autumn leaves swirling around each other as they gently drop into a stream to be carried off to parts unknown.

"Frolic of the Bears" is another instrumental that accompanies dancers in bear costumes frolicking in the Ozark forests. While the music was certainly influenced by Mozart, the frolicking bears harks back to the Uncle Remus-type stories that came over from Africa. In fact, the bears' dance is timeless and yet ancient. Something mythological rather than historical.

There is little ragtime in "Treemonisha" other than "We're Goin Around," "A Real slow Drag" and "Aunt Dinah Has Blowed the Horn." I guess you could throw "We Will Rest Awhile" in there too. But it is obvious that the genesis "Treemonisha" evolved from the ragtime opera form (of which Joplin had written at least one called "A Guest of Honor" although it is now lost) and may have had its earliest genesis in Joplin's 1902 piece "The Ragtime Dance" (the piece is played at the very end of "The Sting" as the credits roll).

Joplin's opera was unusual for having a female heroine who spends a great deal of her time battling superstition against a thinly-disguised Christianity. Even the parson who sings "Good Advice" is seen by Joplin as a windbag and he appropriately names him Parson Alltalk. Parson Bullshitter basically. Remember that religious blacks loathed Joplin and believed ragtime was evil music. Joplin, in turn, hated them and refused to do any religious music.

The thrust of the opera is a message to black America: throw away religion and embrace education, to learn from whites without bowing down to them so that they might someday teach one another and become educated and self-sufficient. And prophetically enough, Joplin predicted it would be black women who would lead that charge and that seems to be what is happening.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 06:23 PM

AR--

Have you had a chance to see it live? How was it? Just about the only thing I know from it is "A Real Slow Drag".

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 06:18 PM

Scott Joplin's "Treemonisha."

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 06:11 PM

But Don, the problem, I think is that in opera, even in English, you're really lucky to be able to understand the words--and I think a lot of it is due to too much vibrato. Joan Baez has vibrato, sure enough, but you can understand her. It's hard to believe that vibrato is necessary to cut through thick orchestration--in fact I would think it would--and does-- muddy the sound. What I've heard in choruses I've been in--and it seems to be true--is that spitting out consonants is what really makes words cut through--and it also obviates the need to blow your lungs out on every note at high volume--even if the requested dynamic is loud. If the consonants are strong, the words come out.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Al
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 05:57 PM

Yes, violinists use vibrato nearly all the time. Fiddlers not coming from a violin background do not. I put vibrato in the same category as using reverb on a sound system. A little bit adds enhancement. More than that becomes burdensome to my ear. A friend of mine calls the reverb knob on a sound system the talent knob. Think you need to sound better? Just turn up the talent knob. To me, vibrato is just like that.
Al

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 03:00 PM

Vibrato is not really a requirement for a trained voice, it generally occurs naturally, and it's produced by a combination of forces at work when a person sings—or speaks, for that matter. But when one is speaking, the duration of a single tone is usually so short that the vibrato present is not noticeable. I've taken lessons from three different voice teachers, and none of them tried to get me to develop a vibrato. I never even thought about vibrato, but when I listen to tapes, I notice that I do have a bit of it. It just happens. I could suppress it, but when I do, it feels unnatural. Why bother? No one has ever mentioned it to me, and I don't notice it unless I'm specifically listening for it. And most of the singers—not classically trained—that I know, or hear on records, also have at least a touch of vibrato.

With some singers, the periodicity and the width of variation can get out of hand ("wobble") and it becomes very conspicuous. This is not good. A natural vibrato, other than giving the voice "life," should hardly be noticeable. But—if you listen specifically for vibrato, you're bound to hear it in all but a very few singers. And I guess that sometimes that can spoil the experience. It's sort of like "Whatever you do, don't think of an elephant!" When someone, a classical singer for example, opens his or her mouth to sing, you expect to hear vibrato and, son-of-a-gun, that's all you hear.

It's not that opera singers necessarily have more vibrato than other singers, but often they are trying to sing over a whole symphony orchestra, and because they are so bloody loud (not everyone has a big enough voice for this kind of singing), it may become more noticeable. I heard Dennis Bailey, a tenor with Seattle Opera a few years back, sing in a relatively small meeting room, and I was astounded at how loud his voice was. And I've heard that in similar venues, Renée Fleming (not a big woman) can practically blow the walls out if she's a mind to.

As a matter of fact, I'm listening to Renée Fleming right now, on the Metropolitan Opera broadcast of Manon. Her vibrato is there—if I focus on it. But I can't trying to imagine her voice without it. It would sound flat and lifeless. Ah! Here comes the tenor. Him, too.

Vibrato seems to be regarded by most musicians—and audiences—as a desirable thing. Almost all instrumentalists try for vibrato. Watch a violinist. Notes will be emphasized by undulating the left-hand to give the fingered note an up-and-down variation in pitch, with very good effect. Violinists use it almost all the time. Or classic guitarists. Hard to do on steel strings, but on nylon strings it works. Some electric guitars come equipped with a vibrato arm. Popular singers often come at a note "straight" (no vibrato) and a little under the correct pitch, come up to the correct pitch, and add vibrato. Also a very good effect.

Unless it develops into a wobble, it doesn't pay to try to suppress a natural vibrato. Trying to prevent one's voice from doing its natural thing develops undue tension that can result in nodes on the vocal folds. On the other hand, I recall a fairly promising coloratura soprano who lived around here some years back. Her voice teacher—who was also her mother (bad combination, especially since she was a stage mother!)—thought to give Leone a unique voice by getting her to develop a strong vibrato. The ultimate result was that Leone wound up sounding like a bleating goat when she sang. Nice voice to begin with, but it became downright irritating to listen to, and she went nowhere fast.

There is a pretty good rundown on vibrato here:    Clicky #1. Note where the writer points out that, although some choir directors want their singers to sing with a "straight tone" (no vibrato), singing that way can be damaging to the voice. And Wikipedia has a good article on vibrato in both instrumental and vocal music here:    Clicky #2.

If you listen for vibrato in the voices of various folk singers (including traditional singers, not just Joan Baez), you'll notice that a lot of them have at least some. As I mentioned above, Ewan MacColl has a very strong vibrato. Doesn't bother me. That's just part of his natural sound, and it wouldn't sound like Ewan MacColl without it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 12:42 AM

Al--

"Musical training was school band with clarinet and saxaphone" I would guess that means only band, no orchestra. If you had played clarinet in an orchestra, I suspect you'd like classical more than you do--just a guess. There are some great orchestral parts for clarinet (not so many for saxaphone)

I played viola--which (famously) does not have many good orchestra parts--but I loved just being part of the musical texture. And in Baroque music there are even good parts for a young violist-and I did play in a quartet from time to time--a few eons ago.



Daith--

I don't know the Scarlatti piece Il Contese di Stagioni--but I know the Devil's Trill--isn't it a sonata--or is there more than one? I have it on tape, I think.


Bert--

There is a LOT of great classical dance music. It just depends on what kind of dance you like to do. If you like Khachaturian, you might well like modern classical dance music--some Bernstein, for instance.







I certainly agree with everybody who criticizes vibrato you can drive a Mack truck through. With few exceptions, the only parts of opera I like are overtures and choruses. (Zauberfloete is an exception--it's actually very funny--auf Deutsch.) But why vibrato seems to be a requirement for a "trained voice" is beyond me. And in a chorus, the director usually wants straight tone--so he (or she) can create the musical color himself.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 11:12 PM

Hunh??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Al
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:56 PM

Need I say more about the mind stuff? I think not. Don said it far better than I.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:37 PM

I came home this afternoon from running some errands and turned on my marvelous Tom Swift electric radio (Sony, actually), and what should I hear emanating from Classic KING-FM but a series of Chopin nocturnes and waltzes. Many of these are not too technically difficult for a competent pianist, and—well, to say that Chopin's works lack emotion is rather like saying the Pacific Ocean lacks moisture.

This got me to thinking. Opera. All that spectacular vocalization:   bellowing tenors and screeching sopranos you hear about who some folks are convinced are hung up on technical virtuosity and whose singing is devoid of any emotional content. Well. . . .

Aida, by Verdi. Aida is an Ethiopian princess, captured by the Egyptians and now the slave of Amneris, the Pharoah's daughter. Aida has fallen in love with Rhadames, the general of the Egyptian army—and he with her, much to the annoyance of Amneris. Into the opera a bit, the Egyptian army, led by Rhadames, is about to march into battle. The priests bless the army and Pharoah and the crowd see the army off with a chorus of "ritorna vincitor!" Return victorious! Aida, caught up in the moment and fearing for the man she loves, joins in the cries of "ritorna vincitor!" Then she suddenly realizes what she's saying. Rhadames is marching off to war against Amnonasro, the Ethiopian king—her father! What follows is one of the great soprano arias, in which Aida agonizes over her predicament, loving two men who are hell-bent on killing each other. The aria ends with Aida falling to her knees and singing "Numi pieta, numi pieta. . . ." "May the gods have pity!"

Not much emotion there, I guess.

Cavalleria Rusticana, by Mascagne. In a small Sicilian village, Turiddu seduces a young girl, Santuzza, and because of their illicit affair, she is excommunicated. Whether or not she's pregnant is not made clear in the opera. Then Turiddu runs off with Lola, the wife of Alfio, the local teamster. The story is told through a singing conversation (duet)between Santuzza and Mama Lucia, Turiddu's mother. Then follows a scene in which Santuzza confronts Turiddu in the town square (the whole opera takes place there, with Mama Lucia's tavena on one side of the stage and the entrance to the church on the other). The argument grows heated, then violent. Turiddu hurls Santuzza to the ground and stalks into the church. As he mounts the stairs, Santuzza lays a curse on him. All disappear from the stage and all you see is the town square, devoid of people. The Intermezzo begins slowly and softly, then breaks into a sweeping, pastoral melody that reminds the audience, after all this wild passion, that these events are taking place on a pleasant Easter morning while, in the church, the Easter service is being conducted. Then everybody comes out of the church, and— The opera ends with a woman rushing into the town square, screaming that Alfio, Lola's husband, has just stabbed Turiddu to death.

Pretty lame in the emotions department, one might say

I Pagliacci, by Leoncavallo. Canio, the head of a troupe of traveling clowns finds out that his wife, Nedda, is cheating on him. The first act ends with the impassioned "Ridi, Pagliacci!." "Laugh, clown, laugh. Your love is gone, your heart is breaking, but the audience wants their comedy! Get on with it!" At the end of the "comedy" within the opera, Nedda and her lover Silvio lie at Canio's feet, stabbed to death. Canio drops the bloody dagger, turns to the horrified audience and intones, "La commedia e finite!" "The comedy is finished!"

Yup. Pretty bland stuff.

I could go on like this with about fifty different operas I'm familiar with, but—well, I guess all that screeching gets on some people's nerves. . . .

Actually though, folks, opera singers used to just stand there and sing, and as actors, were pretty stiff. Not so anymore. More and more, they cast for looks as well as voice, and people like Renée Fleming (soprano, and cuter 'n' a bug's ear), Jerry Hadley (tenor), Thomas Hampson (baritone), and other regulars at the Met generally look the part they are portraying, and are all good actors as well as top-rate singers.

The fat soprano with an iron bra and wings on her helmet who just stands there and screeches like a steam whistle is yesterday's cartoon stereotype. I find that most people who turn pea-green at the thought of opera have never seen one, and if they've heard any at all, it's generally a few recordings of someone singing in a language they don't understand.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Helen
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 06:04 PM

Al,

There is a lot of classical music I don't like, including the overblown singers, but also I could never get into the romantic (schmaltzy") stuff (didn't like the romantic poets much when I studied literature either) or some of the pompous dramatic stuff.   I never really have liked Mozart, except for The Magic Flute and a couple of other pieces. I get caught out listening to the radio sometimes. I hear a piece and think that it is probably Mozart, and then I think, maybe he's not so bad after all, and then they say "that was a piece by Handel" and I think "Ah, that was why I liked it!". Mozart was clever, but in my opinion he was tricksy-clever, and I can't hear the heart in his music.

Sometimes I turn the radio down because it's "not my cup of tea" but that's why I like classical music, because there is such a broad range to listen to and discover, and then you get someone else's interpretation of a piece and it totally changes it, and you can change your mind about liking it.

Early music is probably one of my favourite types of c.m. such as the Renaissance CD I have, and it is closer to folk music because it was often love songs, love-gone-wrong songs etc, and also dances.

And, my early exposure to c.m. was not strong, but we listened to the radio a lot, and then we bought a secondhand radiogram with a few boxes of 78 rpm records, mostly swing music, and then my sister and I started learning to play music and by then our taste in music was very eclectic. I got into the folk music scene in my late teens but still retained a love of all kinds of music. I used to say "all kinds of music except country & western, and opera" but now I appreciate some music in those styles too.

Helen

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:21 PM

"... Andres Segovia literally created the genre of classical guitar, which hadn't existed before around 1910. There was flamenco, which he borrowed from, but he actually arranged the works of Mozart and other classical composers for guitar, something that had never been done before ... Segovias' style is not slick or contrived, but it's still very clean and his timing is impeccable ... it's got a feeling of casual elegance, as if he's sitting around the house in Spain with a jug of wine, just playing from the heart." - Roger McGuinn / Byrds

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:17 PM

Musing on technical perfection. I prefer someone who plays with their heart and soul, to technical perfection. Nigel Kennedy loves the music and has a unique style which appeals to me. There are some people who should never play Beethoven because they lack that feeling.

One of the reasons I do not like most US orchestra renditions, is they tend to play pieces too fast (throw back to the days when it was done to get everything recorded on one record) Rudolph Serkin made very few recordings for that reason. Not everyones cup of tea but it does make a difference to me when I listen.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: autolycus
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:01 PM

Al - you said you don't listen to it and you don't like it. I presume you did once listen a bit to know you don't like it.

Well as the conductor and composer might say, "Ah, not your cup of tea."

I got into c.m.,(which in my book includes Khatchaturian), whenI was 14. Previously, I had dismissed it as all sounding the same - not having heard much. Picked up bits in various places despite myself - galop from William Tell overture introducing The Lone Ranger, bits in all those Tom and Jerry cartoons. There used to be record request programmes which ever ended with a bit of pop classical here on the BBC. Some of that registered. Otherwise, when I was growing up there was music on the radio but it wasn't central.

Then a friend of my brother's bought me an American popular introduction to c.m. A year later, a foisted friend introduced me to "Your Hundred Best Tunes" on the old BBC Light Programme. An hour's worth of the most popular classical music bits. (It's still going - different presenter.) First thing I discovered was that c.m. had loads of great tunes. Amazement.


ivor

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:48 PM

As you say, "chaque à son goût." But merely "a vehicle for exhibiting virtuosity. Of the mind and ego. Not of the heart?"

Well, that's not what I hear when I listen to classical music. True, there is the occasional musician who is all technique and no soul, but they generally don't get very far or last every long.

There are folks who get so distracted by a good musician's virtuosity that they don't get around to hearing the actual content of the music. But that's not the fault of the musician. Or of the music. You have to open your ears. And your mind.

I'm not putting you down, Al. I think you're just not hearing what's really there.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Al
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:18 PM

Yes, a technical exercise. That's exactly what classical sounds like to me. A vehicle for exhibiting virtuosity. Of the mind and ego. Not of the heart.

No worries about other opinions "being hard" on me. I have my feelings, others have theirs. This is a place to share them. Now, if others think there is some reason why I shouldn't feel the way I do, because they feel otherwise, then perhaps they need to reflect on the nature of individual feelings. It's much more interesting to find out how things are than how they "should" be.

For those who like classical, chaque à son goût.

Regarding my early exposure to classical, just what was on the radio now and again. Musical training was school band with clarinet and saxophone. Followed by 36 years of guitar, banjo, and fiddle.

Love,
Al

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:06 PM

Sutherland is not my favorites by any means. She ccasionally sings flat and tends to swoop form note to note. If she hasn't by now, she should have retired years ago. I'm reminded of what Beverly Sills said when she announced her retirement. Her voice still sounded great, but she said that it was not as easy as it used to be, and that, she felt was a sign. She said, "I would rather have people ask, 'why did she retire?' than have them say, 'Why doesn't she retire.'"

But Marilyn Horne!?? Somehow, Graham, you're missing something! She, and Cecilia Bartoli, who has a similar voice, sing a lot of stuff with technical razzle-dazzle largely because they can, and people want to hear them do it because they do it so well. But have you ever heard Marilyn Horne sing Mon coeur s'ouvre à ta voix from Samson and Delilah?" Full of emotion. She's one of the richest, smoothest sounding mezzo-sopranos to ever sing a note! Or Cecilia Bartoli singing Mozart's Exultate Jubilate? Full of rapid scales, jumps, trills, general fireworks. But it, too, is full of emotion.

And, yes, their voices have vibrato. Almost all good voices have at least a touch of it. Kiri Te Kanawa, for example, has a fairly evident vibrato, but it's hardly intrusive. A touch of vibrato lends a kind of "life" to a voice that would otherwise sound sort of flat—even though it might be right on pitch. Vibrato is a natural phenomenon, not usually something that someone has to work to develop. It just happens. It's rare to find a singer who doesn't have at least some vibrato, and that includes folk singers. Ewan MacColl, for example, had a fairly fast, wide vibrato.

Opera and oratorio singers are often called upon, not just to sing words, but to use their voices like musical instruments. All those fast scales and ornaments are very much like the sort of thing that jazz singers do when they're "scat singing." Think Ella Fitzgerald.

No lack of emotion when it's called for. Try listening again with unprejudiced ears.

—snip—

Re:   Family background. My family was not particularly musical in the active sense (my mother had a few piano lessons when she was a kid, but we didn't have a piano early on, so. . . .), but we listened to the radio a lot. There were lots of music programs in the evening, such as "Manhatten Merry-Go-Round," "The Grand Ole Opry," and "The Longines Symphonette." Pretty eclectic.

My two sisters and I listened to the usual run of kid's programs that came on at 5:00 every weekday afternoon. This was adventure stuff like "Jack Armstrong, the All-American Boy" and "Captain Midnight," and comic strip characters like "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century" and "Superman" (radio actor Bud Collier suddenly changing his voice when he would say {as Clark Kent, a light baritone}, "This is a job for" {suddenly, he's a bass} "Superman!" The theme songs of these programs were often classical music excerpts. Then, every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at 7:30 p.m., "The Lone Ranger" came on. The program started, of course, with the fanfare section of The William Tell Overture by Rossini (indelibly associated with the Lone Ranger now), and later in the program, as the announcer was narrating parts of the story, the background music was Liszt's Les Preludes. Very dramatic stuff! Most of those programs used classical excerpts in a similar manner. "I Love a Mystery," for example, opened with Danse Macabre.

In high school, like most kids, I did my homework with the radio on, but I found music on the pop music stations, along with the perpetual DJ babble, to be distracting, so I switched on programs like "The Frederick and Nelson Concert Hour" (F. & N. was a big department store in Seattle). Both of my sisters, Mary and Patricia, were heavily involved in figure skating (both went on to win National Figure Skating Championships, and my younger sister, Pat, competed in the World Championships in Vienna in 1955—placed 7th), and they spent a lot of time listening to classical music records trying to find music suitable for skating programs. Lots of ballet and such. Also, by then, we had a piano, and Pat was taking piano lessons.

In high school, I tended to run with the music and drama crowd—the kids who acted in the Senior Play and sang in the yearly operettas. They did some pretty ambitious stuff, such as "Show Boat" and "The Fortune Teller," and brought them off in an amazingly professional manner for a bunch of teen-agers. There was one girl (huge soprano voice) who went on to become a professional concert singer and sang often with Seattle Opera and with other opera companies. One of the guys had a rich baritone (he was a movie buff and his idol was Nelson Eddy). Shortly after he graduated, he got a bit part singing in a movie with Bing Crosby, and later went on to Broadway. In his first Broadway part, he understudied the lead in "Damn Yankees."

When I was about eighteen, a friend of mine who was interested in opera discovered that he had a halfway decent tenor voice, and started taking singing lessons. Just for kicks, I decided to take a few singing lessons. The teacher was Edna Bianchi, a retired Metropolitan Opera soprano and a marvelous teacher. She pegged me as a bass-baritone. Without a clue as to what I would ever do with my voice other than sing for fun, I took lessons from her for a couple of years.

At the University of Washington, I was led astray when I started going with a girl who was eagerly learning folk songs and teaching herself to play the guitar. I bought a cheap guitar to mess around with, and she showed me my first chords. She and I went to a concert by a local folk singer named Walt Robertson, and I was thoroughly hooked! Other than a few chords learned from Claire, Walt taught me my first tricky licks on the guitar, I went on to take classic guitar lessons, went back to Mrs. Bianchi for more voice lessons, and changed my major to music.

But that's a whole nother story.

I tend to wince a bit at hard rock and rap, but other than that, I love all kinds of music.

Actually, I find more folk music aficionados "stuck up" and "snobbish" when confronted by classical music than the other way around. Many self-taught musicians seem to think that they have some kind of wild, creative freedom that people with formal musical training don't have. It's just the other way around. Music theory is not just a big list of "Thou Shalt Nots," it's the accumulated knowledge of all of the musicians who have gone before, and it consists of a menu of possibilities that, more often than not, untrained musicians never even think of.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Grab
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 02:07 PM

It's got to be something *without* warbling singers. IMO, if you can't sustain a pure note and make it worth listening to, then you can forget calling yourself a top-flight classical singer. That rules out pretty much everything my wife listens to (Sutherland, Horne, et al). None of them has even the slightest trace of emotional content in the music - they're too busy vocalising to give a shit about what the music *means*. As a technical exercise it's wonderful, but as music it's crap. I wouldn't consider any of them to be even third-rate musicians, even if they're first-rate singers.

That said, I've also yet to hear anything as beautiful as a really good soprano voice done straight, with vibrato used for emphasis and tone, instead of slathered on with a dump truck like every opera singer does.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Bert
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 01:39 AM

Generally speaking, I don't like classical music. It seems to me to be a pompous load of noise.

And I, as a dancer, especially hate those composers who take dance music and fuck it about so that you can't dance to it.


I do like Katchaturian though, but he is more modern than classical.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 01:21 AM

...and J.S. Bach most definitely has "soul" although he's not particularly visceral. Maybe visceral is the idea Al really had in mind.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 01:16 AM

I grew up with classical music and hated it as a child. My father listened to it all the time. I didn't and still don't share his particular tastes in classical music. Except for Hall of the Mountain King. We loved that one as kids. But I didn't really start to like classical music until I encountered early music while in high school.

I've played with some good enough people and groups (certainly better than I am or ever will be). I found the experience of playing early music with others as pleasing as playing "folk" with others. Except that "folk" is a lot easier to learn and play.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:59 PM

I wouldn't want to be hard on Al--though I totally disagree that classical music has "no soul whatsoever"--especially the Romantic literature-- Tschaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherezade, Brahms symphonies, Schumann piano concerto in a minor--and on and on.

But I suspect Al did not grow up with classical music. It would be fascinating to know how many of us who love it grew up with it at home-I suspect a large percentage. It would also be of interest to know how many have played or sung it in a good group. Somebody who fits none of the the above (and they are of course linked) would be unlikely to love it, I think.

It's the old stereotype of classical lovers being stuck up--and unable to appreciate real gutsy music--of "the people"--both "folk music" and popular music--esp R & B and/or country. And of course there are some classical fans who are total musical snobs--think that all pop music--at least since the start of the rock era-- is trash. They're missing a lot too--just like the people who cut themselves off to classical music.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 08:57 PM

Thanks, Helen. Found it!

There's a similar station in Seattle (KING-FM) where they post their playlists, frequently with a link to where one can get information on the relevant CD, and if one wishes, buy it on-line. Most useful!

KING-FM

Actually, vl, it was just a couple of days ago that KING-FM played Gershwin's An American in Paris, and the announcer told the story about Gershwin and Ravel. That's where I heard it.

A few years back, the piano duo of Katia And Marielle Labèque toured the United States, playing great gobs of Gershwin in their concerts. They seem to have sparked a resurgence of interest in Gershwin, along with an awareness that musicians and audiences elsewhere take him far more seriously than most Americans do. Thanks, ladies!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 05:35 PM

Nice story about Ravel and Gershwin, Don. Interestingly, you can hear a bit or Gershwin influence in Ravel's Concerto in G (circa 1930).
"Love Walked In", "But Not For Me", "Our Love is Here to Stay" some of the greatest melodies ever written, IMO.

Al, if you find "serious" music without soul take a listen to Puccini's "Vissi D'arte" or "O Mio Babbino Caro" or maybe Schubert's "Ave Maria" and you might change your mind. Not everybody's cup of tea though, I guess.vl

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Helen
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 05:16 PM

Don,

One of the reasons I like our Australian radio station, Classic-FM is that they do play Gershwin, and other types of music including jazz and folk fairly regularly. The other day I heard: Trad (Québecois) Valse Frontenac - Chris Norman, flute; Alasdair Fraser, fiddle; Billy McComiskey, acc; Robin Bullock, guitar; Paul Wheaton, double bass.

They also have a play list, which is searchable by composer, and also comes up in Google, which has the composer, performer, track and CD details, including CD number because there are a lot of times that I will hear something and either know it but have to turn off before I get the name of it or I want to buy it.

I posted the link to their website where you can listen online.

Helen

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 02:12 PM

". . . tedious, the product of over-active minds with no soul whatsoever."

I'm currently listening to Beethoven's Symphony No.6, Op.68 (the "Pastoral"), and I'm having a hard time reconciling that comment with what I'm hearing. Perhaps that says more about the person making the comment than it does about the music. . . .

In the category of "a prophet is without honor in his own land," we should not forget George Gershwin. Most of his compositions are very "American idiom," derived mostly for jazz, which is one of the reasons that many Americans tend to overlook him or underrate him.

The story is told that after the fairly spectacular critical and popular success of his Rhapsody in Blue, he had something of a crisis of confidence. He felt that now things would be expected of him that he just wasn't up to. He decided to go to France and study composition with Maurice Ravel.

When he and Ravel met, it turned out that not only was Ravel familiar with his work, but that he was a great admirer of Gershwin's. "But why would you want to study with me?" Ravel asked. "All I could do for you is turn you into second-rate Ravel. You are already first-rate Gershwin!"   

Ravel's little pep-talk bucked him up. He proceeded to write An American in Paris, which was another big success. The later movie with Gene Kelly and Leslie Caron, in which all the music was Gershwin's, didn't hurt. Incidentally, Gene Kelly's choreography for the long dance sequence in the movie (and Kelly was the one who did the choreography) is considered by many knowledgeable dance aficionados to be as great a piece of work as any classic ballet to ever hit the stage.

But Ravel was apparently unaware that Gershwin did have some reasons for his feelings of inadequacy as a composer. A quote from a brief biography of Gershwin:

His larger-scale works, melodically remarkable as might be expected, suffer from his haphazard musical education and lack of grounding in counterpoint, theory, etc. (Rhapsody in Blue was orchestrated by Ferde Grofé, but Gershwin himself scored the later works.) He went for lessons to Henry Cowell and Joseph Schillinger, and there can be little doubt that had he lived longer he would have progressed to considerable symphonic achievement. As it is, his mixture of the primitive and the sophisticated gives his music individuality and an appeal which shows no sign of diminishing.

But then, Mussorgski (Pictures at an Exhibition, A Night on Bald Mountain, and the opera, Boris Godunov) suffered from the same deficiencies. Mussorgski was a good pianist, but an inept orchestrator, much moreso than Gershwin. Both Rimsky-Korsakov and Ravel reorchestrated many of Mussorgski's works.

Gershwin's opera (and it is a genuine opera), Porgy and Bess, falls into the category of opera verismo, or opera about true life—people who could actually exist (such as Puccini's La Bohème, Mascagni's Cavalleria Rusticana, Leoncavallo's I Pagliacci, or Bizet's Carmen)—rather than "grand opera," which is generally about kings, nobles, and gods (Verdi's Aida, The Masked Ball, and Rigoletto or Wagner's Ring of the Niebelungs ). Many of Gershwins songs are so familiar that most people don't realize that it's Gershwin. The songs from Porgy and Bess ("Summertime," "It Ain't Necessarily So," etc.) are very familiar to most Americans. But their familiarity doesn't lessen their quality as music. Most Italians are as familiar with the words and melodies of Verdi arias as Americans are with songs by Gershwin.

Admired in Europe, often greatly underrated here.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:32 AM

I quite like classical music, and I love the classical guitar. Julian Bream and Andres Sergovia are the equals of Skip James and Son House, in my view - and praise does not come much higher.

I like the popular classics - Holst's planets' suite, Rodrigo's Concerto de Aranjuez, Vaughan Williams' Greensleves and Thomas Tallis, Beethoven's 6th, Mozart's 21st, Elgars Nimrod and certain parts of that Cello Concerto, and many others. A lot of good stuff, although like all other types of music, a lot of it is rubbish and over rated.

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:28 AM

"More. Between Barbara and me, we have LPs, tapes, and CDs up the ziggy, and we keep getting more. Great stacks of stuff, including heaps of classic guitar, not to mention all the folk music. HELP!! Is there a 12-step program for this sort of thing?

Don Firth "

Musical AA? Heck, just call me an enabler...LOL. I'm at least trying to consolidate the LPs, tapes & CDs onto my computer. But the originals will just go into storage... :) Can anyone say "packrat"?

When I kick the bucket, my body is going to science... but I'm still deciding who gets my collections...

Put in your dibbs now, guys....

Subject: RE: Classical music - what makes you listen?
From: Essex Girl
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 08:48 AM

I love Faure's Requiem, most of the oratorios. Carmina Burana, Vaughn Williams, Elgar,Aaron Copeland. Lots of other pieces (mainly choral) which I have on CD in the car