BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer

Subject: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 01:40 PM

I was watching Errol Flynn as General Custer for the umpteenth time on TCM and I couldn't help noticing Errol's willy in the very tight trousers he wore in that first scene at West Point. Must have used sellotape, or a banana.

i wonder do any of you Hollywood buffs know the truth about this display of the Flynn family jewels?

Did this escape the censors, or was this a piece of self advertisement/exhibitionism from Flynn. Or on the other hand did some studio boss think it would be a great gimmick?

My interest is purely salacious.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 01:43 PM

Errol Flynn was an egomaniac who wore his willy on his sleeve for all the world to see, so I suspect it was intentional on his part. He probably stuffed his trousers with something, as you suggest. That's an entertaining movie if you can totally suspend historical authenticity and just go along for the ride.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 02:17 PM

The phrase 'in like Flynn' would appear then to refer to something entering at the third or forth attempt after a considerable amount of re-adjustment..............?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: gnu
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 02:34 PM

I will pay handsomely to anyone who tapes that movie and sends me a copy... IF... there is a rendition of Garryowen in it. That is, the entire song being sung.

Or, if you know how I might obtain a copy, or rent one, or whatever, I would be forever in your debt. Well, I'll thank you greatly.

Anyone knowe any other sources of a recording of Garryowen being sung?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 02:45 PM

Rending Garryowen?

Surley this is some strange kind of copping off talk?

Hope you score gnu and get what you need!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: gnu
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 03:13 PM

The Garryowen lads were never rendered. General Custer was rendered.... custered, even.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM

Well, I guess I have to lob this one in.

What was 6 inches long with an arrow throught he end?
















Custer's last stand



Childish I know but old enough to be trad.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 03:39 PM

Gnu - I will send it you next time its on. its on about every two weeks. I was going to dvd it this time, but I missed the opening credits.

However I note so far no one has the inside story on Errol's display.

I bet that's the ultimate flasher's fantasy - you do a flash and nearly seventy years later - people are still going - did you SEE THAT!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 04:20 PM

"In like Flynn" means...in within a fraction of a second, in without hesitation, most definitely absolutely and without question IN! It does not mean "in at the third or fourth attempt". That would be "in like Dick Nixon".

If you lined up all the women Errol Flynn was "in", the line would stretch from here to Jupiter.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 04:47 PM

Did you see James Coburn's In Like Flint? (There were two films with the Flint character, can't remember the other name).

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 05:02 PM

"In like Flint" was the sequal to "Our Man Flint".

Has anyone else heard a story that Erroll Flynn was at a party and played the piano with his willie ? Not full chords of course - just one note at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 05:06 PM

And I hear he was playing it in landscape format. Gives a different perspective to 'in like flynn'.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Michael
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 06:44 PM

Was he playing an upright, or was it grand? (Or possibly a grand upright)
Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 06:53 PM

With Flynn, I expect it was a concert grand.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 06:54 PM

Here is a fine picture of Erroll Flynn, displaying his physique to advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:16 PM

Aw, fer.....that's NOT the real Errol Flynn. What a disappointment.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: John O'L
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 07:41 PM

I don't think it's the real Massimo either.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: pdq
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 08:36 PM

McGrath's post supports the old saying: "The Irish will marry anything!"

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 09:53 PM

But Little Hawk! Did you take a look at this page?

Check out Pandora, dude!

Enough to make ya swear off goats and sheep, ain't she?

(Do ya think we should report McGrath for linking to a porn site?)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:14 PM

Shatner's horses are way nicer.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:36 PM

You mean to say Errol Flynn was a better pianist than The Freaking Brothers?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 10:55 PM

The fillm is probably "They Died With Their Boots On" since this was apparently the only film in which Flynn played Custer. Info and some pictures here.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:14 PM

In uniform

Willie or won't he?

The oddest fan(?) site I've seen, including any Shatner sites. Whew!

A quote about the source of "In Like Flynn" from a family web site here.

The phrase "In like Flynn" originated as a coarse reference to Errol Flynn's powers as a seducer. In November, 1942, Flynn was charged with statutory rape, arrested and brought to trial, then acquitted. He was charged with having sexual intercourse with two girls under the age of 18. (He was 33 at the time). It was Flynn's belief that the Los Angeles district attorney had made him a scapegoat for Hollywood in order to discipline the film community. Jerry Giesler (Flynn's ace lawyer) considered Flynn an excellent witness and thought that his "gentlemanly demeanor throughout the trial had been an important factor". A new phrase was added to the English language: "In like Flynn".

And finally, here's a quote from Walter Cronkite's wife:
"Errol Flynn died on a 70-foot boat with a 17-year-old girl. Walter has always wanted to go that way, but he's going to settle for a 17-footer with a 70-year-old." -- Betsy Maxwell Cronkite

I guess this is enough Errol Flynn trivia.*

SRS
*Bonus: I came across a site for Photos of the Day that included Jayne Mansfield in Paris. What's interesting about this is that the woman photographer is equally as interesting as Jayne.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 11:21 PM

Yeah, that may just be the most unusual website ever, Stilly. Remarkable.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Alice
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 12:05 AM

Read his autobiography. Wild story.

Alice Flynn

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 12:12 AM

It's called "My Wicked, Wicked Ways", is it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 12:22 AM

Errol's was 12 inches long.
But he didn't use it as a rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:20 AM

Sounds like he used it as a battering ram.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:29 AM

The movie My Favourite Year is based on the life of a Hollywood 'hellraiser' and most probably Mr Flynn.

In this - the part was played by Peter O Toole.

My favourite scene is set in a TV studio when the character is holding the said part in his hand as he rushes to enter the ladies powder room to have a leak. A lady coming out, tells him that it is for ladies.

To which he replies - 'and so madam - is this. I just have to pass some water through it first'..........................

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 08:05 AM

Back in the mists of time (early 1970s) after watching a LOT of Errol Flynn on late night TV (back when I watched TV) and, of course, many viewings of "They Died With Their Boots On"), I wrote a parody of "Garyowen" --

"Instead of water we'll drink ale
And watch Errol Flynn and Alan Hale
And never til the cable fail
Will we get to bed before morning."

I also made an audio tape (Channel 6 could be gotten of radio) of the film -- mostly for the many renditions of "Garyowen".

If that tape is still in existance, my ex-husband has it.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Michael
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 08:06 AM

So what? Mine is 12", infact it's a foot.
Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 08:54 AM

If it's a foot, doesn't it make you walk funny?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:45 AM

I enjoyed the movie. Errol Flynn's role as Custer was spoiled by the usual historical blunders by Hollywood. His fighting equipment at the Big Horn were two presentation grade 1876 RIC Webley Revolvers and RIC holsters, with is trusty Remington No. 1 50/70 Sporting Rifle.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 12:31 PM

Didn't Custer decline to wait for the Gatling guns which were on the way before he left for the Little Big Horn away game as they would only slow him down!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 01:57 PM

Yes, he made a grave error (no pun intended)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 02:04 PM

His troopers also left their sabers behind, not that they would have done much good anyway.

Lots of troopers survived the Little Big Horn fight, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 02:12 PM

Apparently Flynn was famously endowed, both in proportion and endurance, if the testimony of one of the witnesses at his famous statutory rape trial is to be believed. There was also a rumour he used cocaine on his dick to prolong an erection.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 02:46 PM

Crack cocaine?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 02:58 PM

Linn... "... many renditions of "Garyowen"." Oh? Different arrangements, I assume? And, I like the parody verse.

w.l.drummer... I would appreciate that greatly as long as it's not too much trouble.

In the meantime, what is the name of the movie? I might be able to find it locally and save you the bother.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:00 PM

Custer instructed the troopers to leave their sabers behind (highly unusual!) because he wanted stealth...he felt that the sabers might clank while on the ride, make noise, and alert the Indians to the column's approach. They would have been helped out some in that fight if they had had the sabers...a weapon which the Indians did not relish fighting against in close combat.

Custer specialized in surprise attacks on sleeping villages, generally launched in the pre-dawn hours or just at dawn. He didn't do that because he was a coward, by the way, he did it because it worked. It had worked very well in the past at the Washita, for instance. Because of these sudden, vicious dawn attacks one tribe named him "Son of the Morning Star". Another named him "Creeping Panther Who Attacks at Dawn". I trust the names did not contain as many syllables in the Native tongues! ;-D

He had hoped to creep up on the Lakotas in a similar manner, but it didn't work out that way. If it had, he might well have won the ensuing battle...but that's a matter of pure speculation.

In any case, when they did find the village they were not close enough to launch an attack until around midday. Custer further made the error of dividing a force which was only barely adequate for the task into three separate groups which could not support each other. This was his truly fatal error. The first column, under Major (?) Reno, did hit the camp by surprise, but given the fact that hundreds of warriors were in the vicinity, fully awake and ready to fight at a moment's notice, Reno was first stopped in his tracks and then driven back in total confusion by the Indian counterattack, which was mostly on foot. Reno's column was lucky to survive at all, and took heavy losses. They dug in in a wooded area and hung on. Benteen, meanwhile had been sent on a fruitless reconaissance way off to one side, and did not join the fighting until some time later. They too were forced to dig in to save themselves.

Custer led the third column in an assault on the center of the camp. The fight with Reno had already erupted before Custer's column reached the river, and this had alerted several thousand veteran warriors to the presence of white troopers. Custer's attempt to cross the river was repulsed...some (disputed) sources suggest that Custer himself fell to a shot at the edge of the river, and that this stopped the charge in its tracks. If so, he was gravely wounded, but not yet dead. Crazy Horse and Gall led Native horsemen in a counterattack that enveloped Custer's column from in front and from both sides and drove it up the hills to the "last stand" area. In that place Custer's entire column were surrounded and wiped out to the last man.

Reno's and Benteen's troops held out under siege in their dug-in positions for the next 24 hours, and the Lakota then packed up their stuff, struck the camp, and moved out. They had exterminated Mr Custer and about half his troopers, but they had won a pyrrhic victory in so doing, because it made the entire American white society determined to crush them once and for all in vengeance for Custer's death and the presumption of mere "savages" who would dare to wipe out an army column. That was accomplished in its inevitable fashion in the next couple of years. The free days of the Lakota were over and done after that.

Custer was a bold, reckless, flamboyant man...rather like the character that Flynn depicted in the movie, and he went out in the fashion that suited his nature perfectly. It was just the way an Indian warrior would have wanted to go. They were flamboyant and reckless too.

Custer had remarked before the mission that he was on his way to "a brevet (promotion) or a coffin". He seems to have had a fatalistic streak, and he may have had a presentiment that he was not going to survive the battle.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: fat B****rd
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:14 PM

Re Custer, the book "Son Of The Morning Star" by Evan S. Connell is a detailed and fascinating read. I don't know wether Flynn really had such a huge **** but I once read that he loved people to think so ATB from average but enthusiastic fB.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:20 PM

Yeah, it's a great book. There was a good TV movie made from it too, about a 4-hour epic.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: gnu
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:21 PM

Sorry about this, but... odd (ominous?) that the 7th led the Yanks into Iraq, into the "main camp", and have now been surrounded. I hope and pray not.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:24 PM

As a strong sympathizer with Crazy Horse, I have mixed reactions to the 7th Cavalry.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:33 PM

He didn't do that because he was a coward, by the way, he did it because it worked.

And the fact that he was slaughtering civilian populations by using this stealth? It was cowardly to creep up on a sleeping village and slaughter the entire population including children and the elderly and non-warrior adults in order to avoid as much engagement with the warriors as possible. (I won't give the usual "women and children" list because there were some remarkable Indian women warriors over the years).

I posted a link to a nude photo of Flynn earlier in this thread. You can decide for yourselves. I'd say he looks to be fairly typically endowed. Enough to do the job!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:28 PM

Just because it worked doesn't mean it wasn't cowardly too.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:42 PM

You misunderstand my meaning entirely, guys. I share your sense of outrage. I'm 100% pro-Idian in this. I hate the scum-sucking bastards in the cavalry! I detest what they did. However, I am under no illusions whatsoever that Custer was a coward. The man was ridiculously courageous in battle...not just sometimes...always. Read the Civil War histories about him if you don't believe it.

Indians, by the way, normally attacked by stealth and surprise too, whenever possible. That was the smart thing to do. They did not announce themselves, saying "On Thursday we will attack your settlement. Come out and make it a good fight." And they massacred sleeping families. They did it to other Indian tribes too, frequently. They were equally bloody and ruthless as the whites, even more cruel sometimes when it came to torture...but...here's what does it for me...it was their land, and they weren't doing it for the money. They weren't doing it on behalf of rich powerbrokers and politicians in Washington. That's why I sympathize with them a whole lot more with them than I do with Custer and his lot. Their cause was more honorable. Honor is something I admire.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:06 PM

White forces tried to use early-morning attacks whenever possible, just as is considered good military tactics today. For instance, The Dull Knife Band was attacked at daylight on November 25, 1876; the battle of Palo Duro Canyon began at sunrise on September 28, 1974, and the battle at Steen Mountain (Silver Creek) began around 8:00 a.m. on June 23, 1878. Dawn is a traditional time for an attack no matter who you are attacking -- the defenders are generally less observant and tired, possibly hungry. And if you can attack East to West, with your back to the sun, it's even better.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 06:08 PM

I once spent the nght in Custer. I remember it well as I had terrble case of the shits - after eating buffalo.

I wonder how the shaping of an entire mountain into the Crazy Horse Monument getting on?

As Custer has not a whole mountain shaped to his image (but only a rather unremarkable town named after him) I am sure this memorial would really piss Custer off.................

Perhaps this is a good enough reason alone to carve this memorial to Crazy Horse?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 06:39 PM

if yer gonna have a tight uniform, there's not a lot you can do

Size matters

and size betrays

you note they all won prizes!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 06:49 PM

Crazy Horse deserves as big a memorial as he can get, in my opinion, but I think carving up mountains is a kind of strange idea. I'd be more inclined to build a statue.

Here are some other famous attacks that occurred at dawn in or the pre-dawn hours:

the final Mexican assault on the Alamo

the German assault on France and the Low Countries

the German assault on Russia

attack on Pearl Harbour (just before 8 AM, Hawaiian time)

D-Day seaborne landings (began at 6:30 AM)

Hell, make that EVERY significant German assault in WWII, and most of the significant Allied assaults as well. Dawn IS the natural time to attack if you want to attack with maximum effectiveness and make maximum use of the available hours of daylight.

Custer was vain. He was a braggart. He was an arrogant martinet. He lied to the Indians and assisted in the breaking of signed treaties. He was ruthless and merciless to their encampments. He was over-ambitious and reckless to a fault. He was a glory-seeker. But he sure as hell was no coward.

His one other good point, seemingly, was that he loved his very loyal wife Libby dearly, but...he was rumored to have had a significant affair with a Lakota Indian woman in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:23 PM

Hey Sham......You noted that Peter O'Toole played the role in the movie. Did you ever notice that Peter O'Toole has a double phallic name? Very appropriate!!!

BTW......Custer was born just a few miles from my hometown of Dennison in even tinier New Rumley, not far from Cadiz where Clark Gable was born. I dunno' what the hell particular relevance that has to do with anything.........I guess that at least three handsome devils came from the area.

Also Sham.....Here is the Crazy Horse Carving website with photos CHECK IT OUT ......If I were related to Crazy Horse I might object to the nose......geez, what a blower!!! I was there in '96 myself. It really hasn't changed much. They also have on their site A LIVE WEBCAM!!!!! .......WOW!!!!! Considering this thing has been in progress (I use the word loosely) for almost 60 years now, the irony of a live webcam is, well, uh.....ironic....................Anyway if you're really bored it is THE PLACE TO BE ON THE WEB!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:36 PM

Wow. If you watch for 15 minutes or so, you can see that the shadows on the small statue have moved a fraction of an inch. I bet this gets really exciting around sunset, eh? ;-D

Oh, look...there's a bird.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:42 PM

Custer has a memorial statue in his hometown but its kind of a pissant little thing...as it should be!

Little Phil Sheridan has a lot nicer monument as he should in his hometown of Somerset ......just about 8 miles from where I live now......As it should be because Sheridan was about 50 times the General that Custer was. BTW, 8 miles in the other direction is the hometown of W.T.Sherman.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:53 PM

I can't stand Sheridan, but that's because I'm a southern sympathizer and an Indian-lover. ;-)

I have to admit he was a very effective general. Too damned effective, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 08:39 PM

I have read that the Indians learned scalping from the Spanish, and I'm wondering how many other of the abovementioned 'military' tactics were learned from Europeans, and how many they actually practiced before first contact.

(Don't get me wrong. I'm not blindly trying to defend their savage nobility. I really am wondering.)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 08:54 PM

There are many conflicting opinions about that, John. Some sources say the whites introduced the practice first in various places, but I don't think anyone has definitive proof of that. While the whites made scalping into a lucrative business (paying a cash bounty for scalps of men $$$, women $$, and even children $) the Indians did it for prestige purposes. Doing it for money certainly strikes me as more despicable on the whole. There were cases aplenty of white scalpers killing other whites, specially Mexicans, as long as they could get some black hair that just looked like it came from an Indian and get paid for it!

Anyway, if the whites originated the practice it caught on mighty fast, and it must have spread rapidly, because many Indians out west were known to do it even before they encountered any whites. (they were killing other Indians in tribal warfare and scalping them)

What the Indians were very well known for was hideously torturing and abusing their captives...or on some other occasions adopting them into the family and treating them well. On still other occasions...turning them into slaves.

Seems like there was all manner of behaviour, good and bad. Which aspect people focus most on is usually indicative of what cross they most prefer to bear or which drum they best like to beat, if you know what I mean... ;-)

I am very pro-Indian by nature, but I'm not about to turn a blind eye to the Indian atrocities committed in war either, and those were pretty common. Atrocities seem to have been the rule of the day on either side, sad to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:13 PM

It would seem that humanity is humanity all over, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:29 PM

Yup.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:30 PM

Oh, and as for the pre-dawn slaughter of civilians - regarding it as a legitimate military tactic does not make it any less shameful.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:39 PM

lol, Bill. Those poor guys! Remind me mightily of oosiks.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:47 PM

No, of course it's shameful. However, Custer would have gotten a medal and maybe a chance at the presidency someday if he had managed such a massacre of the encamped Indians at Little Big Horn...and the nasty details would have been overlooked by a delighted and grateful nation. ;-)

In the eyes of most of the Indian fighters back then, no Indian was a "civilian". Read the accounts of the time, and that is plain.

To put it in General Sherman's immortal words to an Indian at one of the negotiations he did with the embattled tribes of the West: "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead." This later got changed a little in the common vernacular to the much-repeated saying: "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

That's very politically incorrect now. In 1876 it was American gospel. The USA was built upon the deliberate genocide of most of its original inhabitants. When I was a kid in the 50's and early 60's, those inhabitants were routinely shown at the movies as simply murderous, screeching savages, gun fodder for another generation of American heroes to blast into eternity..."Another Injun bites the dust! Yee-Haw!"

That facade began to crack in the mid-60's...along with the whole general facade of Eisenhower's suburban Ozzie and Harriett American dream where the good guys all wear white hats, shoot straight, and salute Old Glory at 7 AM every day when they recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 10:22 PM

Little Hawk, it seems to me that those shoot 'em up movies you saw in the 50s and early 60s must have been made a good deal earlier. Long before that, there was a cult developing about the "noble savage". As long as he wasn't a "half breed". You just couldn't trust one of them if he was half white. (Wonder who ever came up with some of those ridiculous notions that many people unquestioningly accepted.)

When I was a kid in the 40s and I and my brothers played 'Cowboys and Indians', the Indians usually won. And some very popular books were out there that fed into our fantasies.

There were also many songs about Indians in that genre at that time and earlier. Remember 'Red Wing'? 'Snow Deer'? 'Running Bear'?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 10:55 PM

It's a complicated story and isn't liable to get any easier as years pass. Indians are now writing their own stories, but many recognize that the filter--the language they are using to tell their stories--makes a big difference in who reads them. In their own languages stories are passed down to native speakers. To write in English is the way to reach a larger audience, but in using the "enemies language" provides some hurdles that various writers have approached in interesting ways.

Many people have read the heart-pounding Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee by Dee Brown and Black Elk Speaks (transcribed and interpreted by John Niehardt). If you look at this territory of the story of white/Indian battles and in particular Little Big Horn like a large circle and slice it into perspectives and read lots of stories, with each a slightly different take on the battle at the middle of the pie, then you begin to understand those perspectives. Read Mari Sandoz' Crazy Horse and Standing Bear's My People the Sioux then read Erdoe's Lame Deer Seeker of Visions and move forward to the late Vine Deloria's Custer Died for Your Sins. Shift locations a bit to the Black Hills and look at how others have viewed the Ghost Dance and Wounded Knee (first and second) and see how authors like Gerald Vizenor and Gordon Henry and Louise Erdrich and many others view their past and their present.

What an oddly serious discussion to evolve out of speculation about Errol Flynn's dick. But the tricksters among the Indians writers could turn this into a witty and biting essay, I'm sure of it. I know a few who've written similar things about the movies and how they reflect [not] Indian life and history.

SRS (English Major, MA 1999, emphasis Am. Indian Lit--can you tell?)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 11:32 PM

Well, Ebbie, the cult of the "noble savage" goes a long way back. There were always some white people who saw the Indians in that context, and in some cases they romanticized them out of all reason.

An interesting read is Ernest Thompson Seaton's "The Gospel of the Red Man". Seaton was convinced he had been an Indian in a previous life, and he greatly admired their culture and spoke in defence of it. I have always felt much the same as he did...Indians were my heroes from the earliest age. I suspect he was an Indian in another life, but I'm not gonna argue with anyone about it. ;-)

Most of the movies and TV shows I saw as a kid had the Indians there just to provide "bad guys" for the good guys to shoot at, but there were some exceptions. A few. The Errol Flynn movie in the 40's was one of the first to make some attempt to depict how corrupt politicians and businessmen had stolen Indian land and provoked Indian wars...but it totally whitewashed Custer's personal role in what happened.

Custer was an anachronism. He seemed to only really be in his full element when in battle or on the trail to martial glory (a bit like George Patton in a later era?), and I get the feeling from biographical material that he was about as regretful of the free and open days of the Plains Indians coming to an end as any white man was...because it meant an end to the adventurous life he craved. For him to die in that battle was just about perfect. The life he enjoyed living the most was almost over anyway. His wife Libby, however, missed him terribly, and she seems to have spent the rest of her days doing everything possible to lend lustre to his legend. She'd be very upset with the contemporary revisionist views of her darling now, I'm afraid. ;-)

I've read several of those books you mention, Stilly, back when I was in my 20's. I never did read the Mari Sandoz one, though, or the Vine Deloria one, though I was aware of them being around.

Another book about the Indians I enjoyed greatly was "Seven Arrows" by Hyemeyosts Storm, and there was another about Crazy Horse called "Great Upon the Mountain".

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 11:34 PM

I really don't think Custer could have become President no matter what he did. Remember that he had to beg and plead to be allowed to go back to the 7th Cav before the LBH fight -- he was close to being court martialed again. Also, his permanent rank was Lieutenant Colonel -- he was brevetted to Brigadier General during the Civil War and reverted when the war was over to his permanent rank; to call him "General" was to apply a courtesy title.

He was a daring and brave person, but I think he lacked a lot of good sense. Most of his troopers disliked him, and Reno and Benteen REALLY didn't care for him or he for them. (Benteen, by the way, was sent off to scout around the LBH battle area carrying all the spare ammunition with him. Custer himself sent a note recalling him; Benteen may or may not have hurried in response.)

Custer was also a martinet (but many military leaders were at the time) and was big on nepotism -- Tom Custer rode with his brother at the LBH.

Recent archeology work at the Greasy Grass battlefield, especially involving the recovery and siting of spent bullets, give a fascinating picture of what happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 12:34 AM

Ah, but Rap, don't forget, there is a long and glorious tradition for electing total incompetents to the office of president of the USA...specially if they have good military credentials and have won a battle or two. That's electoral and box office dynamite. Very similar to Rome in the good old days. ;-)

I don't know if Benteen hurried or not, but I really don't think it would have made any difference that time. He would not have gotten there. Crazy Horse and the lads had the situation well in hand.

Custer may have sent Benteen way off to the side because he did not want him sharing in the glory when they took the Indian camp. Wouldn't that be very, very ironic?

All of Custer's other fights had amounted basically to a glorious cavalry charge which swept all before it, Errol Flynn-style. I suppose he expected to pull it off like that one more time, although his Indian scouts had clearly warned him that this time there were just too many Lakota to deal with. He ridiculed them and called them "women". In response, they turned away and prepared themselves ritually for death...and many of them found it that day. He seems to have had a habit of not listening to cautionary advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 02:52 AM

"My fellow chiefs and I would like the white man to know that the red man has great heroes, too."
-- Henry Standing Bear, 1939

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 04:08 AM

The history of the Crazy Horse Monument must be seen in the context of the nearby and currently better known (if much smaller) Mount Rushmore monument.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:57 AM

So still no insights into whether the moguls of Hollywod thought, that man's cock, it has star quality. Give it it's own dressing room. And he talks like high class limey while he's flashing, hey....that's a class act!

Must have been intentional on the studios part.....!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:10 AM

Its own dressing room? Could it be detached and everything?

LH, the political crowd would have killed Custer. He was vain and had an opinion of himself far greater than he was (read his books and those of his wife). He was basically a nasty, vain, little martinet -- in his court-martial that came out. He overstepped the bounds and offended Sheridan, his superior. No, he couldn't have been made President; if he had he would have been the first actor-president instead of Reagan.

Brave? Yes, to the point of fool-hardiness, and amply demonstrated in his Civil War career.

To send your reloads off to scout a different area, to ignore the advice of your scouts -- IF he had survived his men he would have been court-martialed and drummed out of the service in disgrace. His vanity would have been, and was, his downfall and he got his "gray horse troops" killed as well.

Like Douglas MacArthur, Custer was too vain and proud and his bubris brought him down.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:23 AM

"bubris"

Bubba + Hubris

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 01:09 PM

I agree with you 100%, Rapaire. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 05:23 PM

Benteen, Come on, Big village, Be quick, bring packs.
W.W. Cooke      P.S. bring packs.
............

"The body of General Custer although perfectly nude was not mutilated. He had been shot in two place, one bullet had entered his body on the right side and passed nearly but not quite through, the second bullet, and undoubtedly the fatal one, passed thorugh his head entering close to the right ear and coming out near the left ear. Under his body was found four or five brass cartridges which, with a lock of his hair, was afterwards sent to his widow.

It was a very difficult matter to identify the body of Captain Tom Custer. He lay some ten or fifteen feet from the General and had been most shockingly mutilated. He had been split down through the center of his body and through the muscles of his arms and thighs, his throat was cut and his head smashed flat.... A careful search was made and although the arm was cut and somewhat blackened, the letters [T.W.C.] were found, and the body identified....."
..............

The second is from a letter written by First Sergeant John Ryan, who had charge of the burial detail, to William O. Taylor and quoted in Taylor's With Custer On the Little Big Horn (New York: Viking, 1996). Taylor fought with Reno.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 05:24 PM

Point for comparison:

General George Armstrong Custer with around about 220 men faced with 650 odd Indians got slaughtered at the Little Big Horn.

Lieutenant Richard Merriot Chard, an officer of Engineers, with 135 men of the 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment of Foot faced with 4000 Zulus not only survived but defeated them.

Something to do with training and discipline under fire. Both incidents happened within three years of each other. In both cases the troops were similarly armed.

By the bye Little Hawk best estimate of the number of Indians present (Total) was between 950 to 1200, Custer's force was estimated to have been outnumbered 3 to 1 - in any event there were hardly thousands. If you do chose to relate something historical it is just as easy to be accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:34 PM

Fine, "T". There were times when I knew the very facts you mention in every detail, God knows I read enough books about it, but I did not look them ALL up on Google this time to remind myself of EVERY LAST DETAIL. In other words, mate, go f*ck yourself gently with a wire brush. ;-)

Your Mr Chard had some advantages at Rorke's Drift that Custer did not at LBH. He had a fortification in which to make a stand, and some time to prepare his defence there. The Zulus he was facing had a small number of rifles among them (mostly only had assegais), but their riflemen had not the slightest idea how to use the sights (they generally aimed way too high). Crazy Horse's men knew how to use their guns very accurately. The Indians also had some rifles which were superior to Custer's...wait! I'll look it up on Google so I get it EXACTLY right for you...

(hold that thought)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 07:43 PM

Jesus, the time I have to spend documenting shit for you, Teribus...

Okay, here it is:

"But this Indian village was far larger than Custer imagined. It contained an estimated 8,000 Indians and more than 3,000 warriors and was led by Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. The village was three miles long and a half mile wide. (Custer had initially estimated the village's population did not exceed 1,500). Custer divided his command of 645 soldiers into three columns. Major Marcus Reno's detachment approached the Indian camp from the southeast and lost a third of its men. Reno's men retreated to a nearby ridge, where they were under siege for nearly two days.

Meanwhile, the buckskin-clad Custer and his men tried to open an attack on the Indians' flank. But the Indians had watched Custer lead his men along the bluffs overlooking the Little Big Horn, and 1500-2500 warriors attacked Custer's forces. His men, many of whom were raw recruits, were ill-prepared for combat. Lacking cover and relying on single-shot rifles, Custer's troops fired few bullets. In contrast, many of the Indians were carrying repeating rifles and carbines. Within an hour, every soldier in Custer's command had died. Indian losses in the battles totaled less than a hundred."


It's on this website:

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=560

If you don't like it, go and argue with them about it instead of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 08:10 PM

Forget it weelittledrummer, your hopes are dashed.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Alice
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 08:27 PM

When Bill Sables came to visit in Montana, he told me he thought it was very considerate of the Indians to kill Custer so close to the interstate highway.
You can come and visit the battle field if you like. Watch out for rattlesnakes on the trail to the monuments.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 08:39 PM

Good ol' Bill....Astute as ever!!! I miss his presence around here. I spent a couple of the best nights I have enjoyed in the past ten years with him.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:13 AM

http://tafkac.org/faq2k/penis_418.html

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Melani
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:27 AM

This is definitely a very weird thread. Gnu, you can probably buy a copy of "They Died With Their Boots On" pretty cheap through Amazon--mine was $10 about a year ago. It does include a sung version of "Garry Owen," though not all the verses, but the words are easily available. I will look them up and post them, if you like.

Little Hawk, Rapaire, Stilly, etc.--The Indian woman who was Custer's mistress was Cheyenne, not Lakota, captured at the Washita. Her name was Meotzi or Monaseta, and it has been said that she considered herself married to him. Cheyenne oral tradition has it that she later had Custer's baby, but probably not--after a nasty case of gonhorrea at West Point, he probably couldn't reproduce. If Monaseta had a light-haired kid, it was probably Tom Custer's--she got passed on to him when Libby joined the regiment, and Tom already had an illegitimate son back in Ohio.

Speaking of nepotism, the Little Bighorn claimed three Custer brothers, one nephew, and a brother-in-law.

Re: brevet rank--it was the usual military courtesy to address officers by their brevet ranks rather than the actual ones. Most of the troop captains were Civil War vets and had brevets of Lt. Colonel from the war, and so were addressed as "Colonel" rather than "Captain," just as Custer was addressed as "General" rather than "Colonel." When the army was downsized after the war, most officers were reduced in rank, if not mustered out all together.

It was Major Joel Elliot who said, "Here goes for a brevet or a coffin!" as he left his assigned position at the Battle of the Washita. He and 18 men got the latter, and Custer created a permanent breach in the regiment when he didn't go looking for them for two weeks. Of course, if he had, the Little Bighorn would have happened on the Washita eight years earlier, since Elliot had ridden into about a gazillion more Indians downriver.

The currently popular estimate for the size of the Little Bighorn village is about 5,000, with about 2,000 of those being warriors. The guys who survived tended to estimate high, at least partly out of trauma and partly as an excuse for losing.

Custer was right about the Gatling guns--they were a humongous hassle, and they probably wouldn't have helped. The village would have dispersed long before Custer could have gotten there towing the things--which is exactly what happened to Terry and Gibbon, who were a day later than the planned rendezvous. The Indians saw them coming and left before they arrived.

Custer's experience was that the Indians would run if they could. He didn't know Crazy Horse had just totally whupped Crook on the Rosebud and was spoiling for more. He sent Benteen off to the south because he was afraid the Indians would try to get away in that direction--which doesn't make dividing the regiment any less stupid, because it was. The whole thing was stupid. He was supposed to wait for Gibbon and Terry, and the Indians would have been gone by then--after all, would you hang around with your wives and families if they were going to be attacked by a bunch of armed soldiers, or would you try to get them out of harm's way? While the warriors held off the soldiers, the women and children retreated to the bluffs to the west. Attacking in the middle of the day was also stupid.

The pack train with the spare ammo was made up of mules that had been trained for harness, not packs, and was lagging behind Benteen. Benteen arrived just in time to save Reno's behind--he had just lost about a third of his men in a pell-mell, helter-skelter retreat which the Indians described as "a buffalo shoot."

"They Died With Their Boots On" has absolutely nothing to do with reality expect that a guy named Custer was the field commander of the Seventh, though it does flirt with reality. Custer was honest in that he did not approve of graft, whatever else you may say about him, and he nearly didn't get to go on the expedition because he had testified against President Grant's brother (speaking of nepotism). Custer was also a self-centered, oblivious jerk who had no regard for the welfare of his men--they did three days of forced marches on the way to the Little Bighorn, and were exhausted when they arrived. Interestingly, I have recently realized that he was an absolute poster child for ADHD, and his brother Tom not far behind. It does run in families.

And one last tidbit, in response to Les's joke about the arrow--it ain't a joke. It's often said that Custer's body was not mutilated, but several sources dscribe just one thing that was done, but usually not mentioned out of respect for Libby--exactly what Les said. Monaseta was said to be there that day...So you see, it does all come back around to his willie!

I could go on...and on, and on, and on...but I'll stop now. If any of you guys want to get into this subject on a depth that is really unimaginable, check out http://www.lbha.org/ (bringing the two halves of my internet life together). If I haven't been around Mudcat a lot lately, it's because I've been there. And I have my summer vacation all planned--I will be attending the 130th anniversary reenactment of the battle. So now you know about my secret life!

Melani

P.S. Though the intention might be good, Crazy Horse would be totally grossed out by that monument!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:46 AM

Battle of the Little Bighorn
Part of the Black Hills War, Indian Wars

Date: June 25 – June 26, 1876
Location: Near the Little Bighorn River, Big Horn County, Montana
Result: Native American victory

Combatants:
Lakota, Northern Cheyenne,Arapaho v United States

Commanders:
Sitting Bull,Crazy Horse v Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer

Strength:
Native Americans - (949 lodges), probably 950-1,200 warriors.
7th Cavalry - 31 officers, 566 troopers, 3 civilians, ~35-40 scouts

Casualties:
Native Americans ~200 killed (according to Yellow Horse, Red Horse and Little Buck Elk)
7th Cavalry ~268 killed (16 officers, 242 troopers, ~10 civilians/scouts), ~55 wounded

"Within roughly three hours, Custer's force was completely annihilated. Only two men from the 7th Cavalry later claimed to have seen Custer engage the Indians: a young Crow whose name translated as Curley, and a trooper named Peter Thompson, who had fallen behind Custer's column, and most accounts of the last moments of Custer's forces are conjecture. Lakota accounts assert that Crazy Horse personally led one of the large groups of Lakota who overwhelmed the cavalrymen. While exact numbers are difficult to determine, it is commonly estimated that the Northern Cheyenne and Lakota outnumbered the 7th Cavalry by approximately 3:1, a ratio which was extended to 5:1 during the fragmented parts of the battle. In addition, some of the Indians were armed with repeating Spencer and Winchester rifles, while the 7th Cavalry carried single-shot Springfield carbines, which had a slow rate of fire, tended to jam when overheated, and were difficult to operate from horseback.

The terrain of the battlefield gave Lakota and Cheyenne bows an advantage, since Custer's troops were pinned in a depression on higher ground from which they could not use direct fire at the Indians in defilade. On the other hand, the Lakota and Cheyenne were able to fire their arrows into the depression by lunching them on a high arching indirect fire, with the volume of arrows ensuring severe casualties. U.S. small arms might have been more accurate over open distances, but the fighting on this occasion was close combat where rate of fire and reliability of a weapon were more important attributes."

Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Little_Bighorn

By the bye Little Hawk as you do not bother to check things, and for the sake of accuracy the Officer Commanding at Rourke's Drift was Lt. John Rouse Merriot Chard, Royal Engineers.

Custer's men fired few bullets because of the early type of fixed case ammunition supplied for the 1873 model Springfield Carbine had a copper cartridge. A serious flaw, if the gun had to be fired rapidly over an extended period the copper cartidge case would expand due to the heat of the breech causing the gun to jam, this problem disappeared when brass was used for the cartridge case. To give the impression that the Indians were better armed is erroneous, although some were armed with better rifles the majority were armed with lances and bows and arrows, the latter seemed to have done the damage. Custers men ill-disciplined, badly trained and very poorly led. Even armed as they were, in the position occupied, they only needed to form up in close order to repel a vastly superior force, deployed as Custer's men were, in extended skirmish lines they did not stand a chance as at no time could fire be concentrated, i.e. it was virtually everyman for himself from the outset.

In terms of studies there are two actions fought by British troops (Infantry) that should never have turned out the way they did. The Guards action in defence of Hougemont during the Battle of Waterloo and the defence of Rourke's Drift. The troops at Hougemont and at Rourke's Drift were the opposite of those Custer commanded, they were professional soldiers, highly disciplined, very well trained and in the actions mentioned well led.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:57 AM

ADHD?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Walrus
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:12 AM

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: John O'L
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:22 AM

What did Les say about the arrow?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:11 AM

P.S. Though the intention might be good, Crazy Horse would be totally grossed out by that monument!

Very possibly he would but if it was assumed that this was the way for those left behind to honour great leaders - it would be logical to wish the example set by the carving of (a little bit of Mt Rushmore) to be followed.

And equally logical to wish to see that scale exceeded for those who you wished to honour.

As size does seem to matter...........

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 07:02 AM

oh

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:07 AM

Teribus, as I'm sure you're aware a "lodge" was not a single family unit, but an extended family who lived together for mutual support and protection. There could have been from one to several fighting folks living in each lodge. In any case Custer deliberately ran into a buzz saw. (I earlier quoted a letter from 1SGT Ryan on Custer's wounds -- Custer had also had a digit removed from one of his fingers, a gash in one thigh, his eardrums pierced by a sewing awl, and an arrow shot into his genitals.)

Whose was the right and wrong?
Sing it, oh funeral song,
With a voice that is full of tears.
And say that our broken faith
Wrought all this ruin and scathe
In the year of a Hundred Years.
                     --H. W. Longfellow

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:49 PM

Wikipedia is not an authoritative source for anything. It's a starting place, but you must read anything put there with a large grain of salt. Too many cooks in that kitchen, and no standardization as far as how they post and what slant they choose to place on their posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:37 PM

Okay, back to the original discussion --

The 1941 Errol Flynn film "They Died With Their Boots On" is available for US$13.37 on DVD at www.DeepDiscountDVD.com.

Errol Flynn's films, of course, while eminently enjoyable, are not strong on actual history. But this one DOES have "Garyowen" played multiple times through the film and sung on at least one occasion.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:08 PM

I bother to check every last detail when I have sufficient time to, Teribus. Otherwise, I am basically just enjoying myself here, discussing (in a general way) a subject that interests me. If I were taking a university examination and getting marked for it, and my future depended on that mark, then I guess I would take the time to fully research and document every single word I utter on this forum, and provide footnotes.

Is it really that important?

Do you think anyone will care a year from now? I know I won't. Why do you bother? Scoring petty verbal victory points on me over this little fact or that little variation on the theme will not enhance your development as a human being or benefit your life in any way.

I only do the same in retaliation to you sometimes because I am probably as weak and foolish an emotionally reactive jerk as you are, and as insecure too...but at least I have the honesty to admit to it now and then. I've never heard you admit to any weakness.

Look, man, I have slowly grown to detest you, primarily because of your political bent...and I react to you the way a dog reacts to someone that has been taunting it and throwing stones at it every day for a few years. It's predictable. I gather you don't like me either. That's equally predictable. But for Christ's sake, we could go on niggling at each other about details of the Custer fight and Rorke's Drift (or Rourke's Drift, or whatever the hell) forever, and all it would prove is that both of us are really, really insecure people. So give it up, I say.

As for the info you posted: Very good. Sounds pretty accurate to me. Plenty of useful details. I could have looked it up too, and posted it. So could anyone else have, if they took the time. There are obviously a number of different opionions as to how many Indians assaulted Custer's unit at the "last stand", and I suspect that no one will every know for sure, including the people who were actually there at the time. I mean, how CAN anyone ever know for sure at this point?

Melani - Yes, you're right. Custer's Indian mistress was reputedly a Cheyenne woman, not a Lakota. Very good. Lots of other good info in what you posted too. Crazy Horse's 3-day battle against General Crook was an extraordinary display of fighting expertise by the Lakotas. It certainly came as a surprise to Crook, and it was the only battle he ever fought against Indians where he took a serious reverse. Crook seems to have been a very effective commander.

There seem to be some slightly differing accounts about the mutilations to Custer's body. Most accounts indicate that he received far less mutilation than many others there, but the details differ. I've heard that he had knitting needles driven in his ears by the Indian women to make holes "so he would hear better in his next life". I had not heard before that they lopped off his "willy" (which is what I assume you were referring to), but that would probably be because people weren't inclined to speak openly about it for fear that his wife would hear...as you say...or that children would hear. Much of this kind of thing gets sanitized after the fact for the history books.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:12 PM

Obviously I agree Little Hawk, if we can't find out whether Louis B Mayer (or whoever) said, "Let's make that boy's schlong a star!" in 1942.

What chance of working out how many Indians were in Montana on a certain day in 1876?

And I speak as the man who cleared up the Jack the Ripper case to my own satisfaction, here on mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:22 PM

And I speak as the man who cleared up the Jack the Ripper case to my own satisfaction, here on mudcat.

Was Custer to blame for the Whitechaple Murders too?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Melani
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:51 PM

They didn't lop it off, LH, they shoved an arrow up it--a certain "stiffening" effect, I'm sure. Many people have wondered if Monaseta had anything to do with that. She was there, and had plenty of reason to be pissed off. There is an account of her and her aunt preventing Custer from being totally carved up, saying "He is our relative," then driving a sewing awl into his ears so he would hear better in the spirit world.

Teribus, I agree with Stilly about the reliability of Wikipedia. Any idiot can edit it--me, for example. Somebody on the lbha forum quoted the article about Myles Keogh to me, and I had to tell him I was the last one who edited it, and I'm not exactly the world's expert (though I admit to working toward that status! ;-D) It's just that it contained some info that I knew to be incorrect, so I fixed it. I still don't understand how to sign it properly, so I didn't, but I did cite my sources.

ADHD--Custer had every symptom in the book--he never slowed down, never stopped talking at high speed, and was totally self-centered and oblivious to the needs of others. Sanitized history has it that he was lovingly called Old Curly for his flowing locks; in fact, his loving men called him Hard Ass or Iron Butt, because he could ride all day and all night--and it never occurred to him that they couldn't. I began to think about this when I became acquainted with a young person who has this condition, and has exactly the same personality traits. Not a bad person--has spontaneously done kind and friendly things, but is completely unaware of the reactions of other people, walking on their faces and pissing them off. Custer was also bright, but a terrible student, barely squeaking through West Point, but excelling at subjects that interested him, another classic symptom.

The soldiers were always complaining that the Indians were armed with the latest models, courtesy of the Department of the Interior, as a result of the provisions of various treaties. Keogh wrote a letter to a friend about it which was published in the NY Times. From his point of view, it must have seemed as absurd as the Union arming the Confederacy. Most of these guys had just finished up a nice, civilized war against opponents of their own cultural background, with similar values. Indian fighting came as a very rude shock. Custer took to it like a duck to water, being a lunatic who loved a good dust-up, no matter who with.

The real fascination of the Little Bighorn is that nobody can say for sure exactly what happened, not even the people who were there. It is agreed that it was the largest Indian village ever assembled on the Plains, but estimates range from 2,000 to 20,000 (Benteen said 20,000, but it probably just looked that way to him when they were charging!). Accounts by survivors, Indian and white, are wildly contradictory in many cases.

If you guys really want to get into it on a level of total picky detail, I really recommend checking out the link I posted above. It is a forum of both amateur and professional historians who read and discuss endlessly, and the value is in the many points of view presented, so that you can decide for yourself what your own opinions are, based on a mass of info.

Shambles, I am basing my opinion of Crazy Horse's opinion on my own reaction to Mt. Rushmore. I grew up always wanting to see it, and when I finally did, at the age of 19, I couldn't believe how grossed out I was--I really didn't expect to have that reaction. But it was a terrible thing to do to a nice mountain. If ya want a statue, cast it in bronze or something, don't deface the wilderness.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:59 PM

I agree 100$ with your opinion of the Crazy Horse monument, Melani...it strikes me as a ridiculous thing to do to a mountain. Crazy Horse's real monument is his memory which lives on in the hearts of his people (and many others).

Custer sounds to me like a very likely candidate for having had ADHD. He certainly was restless and hyperactive. Such people can be a real pain to put up with for most of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:25 PM

But it was a terrible thing to do to a nice mountain. If ya want a statue, cast it in bronze or something, don't deface the wilderness.

I tend to agree with your opinion but I am not too sure that any of us can really say what Crazy Horse and his people might think of this monument.

But perhaps the most important thing is that such a huge   undertaking, over so many years will mean that these events, those involved in them and the reason why - will never be forgotten - by many who perhaps would prefer they were?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:29 PM

They'll never be forgotten regardless, Shambles. I appreciate the good intentions behind sculpting that monument, but it's not what I would choose to do, that's all.

As regards the arrow up the willy, Melani...OUCH! Good thing he was already dead at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:00 PM

I was surprised that whereas the majority of our visiting bus party were very interested in all aspects the native culture and learning of its influence and contribution to the development of the USA - a number of our party were in fact quite openly hostile to this concept.

Our was a mixed party but the ones not happy with this concept were all American residents and aged 55+. Our guide was doing a very good job of informing us the details and history of this but these members of our party were making it quite clear that they would rather the true story of these events were not discussed at all.

Thankfully - a bloody great mountain carved in the image of Crazy Horse does make the non-discussing of these events rather difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:19 PM

I had now made about 45 pictures, but what had I become? I knew all too well: a phallic symbol. All over the world I was, as a name and personality, equated with sex.

Errol Flynn

Any thoughts on a suitable monument to Errol Flynn?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:21 PM

The Washington Monument. Just reshape and round off the top of it, and add a couple of things at the bottom.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:43 PM

My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income.

Errol Flynn

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Melani
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:46 PM

Well, why do you think they call George Washington the Father of His Country?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 07:12 PM

I wouldn't mind being equated with sex. I feel at times I have been equated with other things. I can't see what he had to be miserable about.


I mean ....he was Errol Flynn. It was strapped to his leg. He could always unstrap it.

Custer was dead 12 years by 1888, and its fairly safe to discount him as a Jack the Ripper suspect. There some who say that he escaped from the Little Big Horn, and he could have had a hand. But these are extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 07:26 PM

The origin of In Like Flynn.

http://www.wordorigins.org/wordori.htm#in%20like

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 12:47 AM

To Melani and SRS, I would say that I have never claimed that information sourced from Wikipedia is infallable, in this particular case the passage quoted happened to be in general agreement with what was written elsewhere and the Wikipedia section was more concise.

Estimates of numbers put between 2,000 and 20,000. The former would be too low and the latter way too high. One good way of estimating it is to look at how they would be fed, remembering that the tribes involved were Plains Indians, nomadic hunter gatherers. Think of the effort required under that culture to feed 20,000 people - basically they would be so busy surviving there would be nobody available for fighting. During the early 1800's in Europe the maximum time you could keep an army (50 to 80 thousand men) assembled was about three days, after which time it had to disperse. That was in country fairly intensively given over to agriculture with reasonable roads and means of transport.

Melani, you were prompted to edit an entry in Wikipedia because the information given was incorrect. With regard to what Little Hawk has stated in this thread, I have done nothing more. The fact that he is not too keen on that is of no concern, or significance to me whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Melani
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:15 AM

Nobody really credits the figure of 20,000--I was just commenting on the wide range that has been put forth. I think maybe a total of 5,000 at most would be a good guess. They were there for the summer buffalo hunt, and wouldn't have stayed together much longer anyway.

Benteen had a big stake in having been totally outnumbered--after all, how else could they account for the defeat of the Seventh, the crack regiment of the Plains? That's one of the reasons the white survivors tended to estimate high.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:19 AM

(I'm so glad you feel that way, Teribus. That's perfect.)

I would guess there may have been as many as 8,000 Indians in the camp, and 2,000 to 3,000 warriors. That seems like a reasonable estimate. It may have been the only time so many of those Indians came together in one place, and it could only be for a brief time, as Teribus explained, for simple logistical reasons like getting enough food.

They came together long enough to put forces in the field that beat General Crook and crushed the Custer attack. Nice work by Crazy Horse. Given the fact that the soldiers apparently took heavier casualties in both battles, the Indians were definitely fighting very efficiently. I don't doubt that Benteen and Reno would have wanted to exaggerate their numbers. The army needed some excuse, after all, for what was a very unexpected disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:45 AM

I note from the lbha site that there were TWO warriors called "Little Hawk" there that day.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:55 AM

Yes, I expect it was a relatively common name among those people.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:19 AM

Yes there was trooper Little Hawk and Captain Little Hawk......

It was all a bit of a shambles too.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 09:45 AM

So it's safe to say they can be discounted as Jack the Ripper suspects as well.

It was this kind of analytical thought that eventually gave me the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:11 AM

Think of the effort required under that culture to feed 20,000 people - basically they would be so busy surviving there would be nobody available for fighting.

Are you assuming they were living off the land to rationalize the group size and their activities? These people were expert at building up stores and I think there would be a lot of preserved (dried) food traveling to such an encampment. Water was the one necessity that wouldn't travel easily with such large populations. Living a nomadic life doesn't mean they didn't know where their next meal was coming from.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 11:25 AM

Think of the effort required under that culture to feed 20,000 people - basically they would be so busy surviving there would be nobody available for fighting.

It was that kind of provincial thinking and assumption that got Custer in to trouble in the first place. These people were masters of tactical operations. You don't manage to stampede, slaughter and preserve more than a thousand of buffalo at a time, at places such as Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump, without developing a modicum of skill.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:37 PM

With the quoted passage from my last post:

"Think of the effort required under that culture to feed 20,000 people - basically they would be so busy surviving there would be nobody available for fighting."

I can only assume that both SRS and Metchosin, are in agreement with my statement as they both then go on to describe activities that would require a great deal of time, effort and man-power (Not to mention the horses)

Metchosin - 10 Apr 06 - 11:25 AM
Provincial (i.e. from the provinces, from the country) thinking, would tend to suggest that while they may have been masters of tactical operations, their culture and way of life could never master or implement any cohesive long term strategy.

Now then lets have a look at the Buffalo ambush:
- Got to find the Buffalo first, takes time and people
- Wind/weather has got to be in your favour, luck of the draw
- You have to know the ground well enough to know when you can start your stampede, takes time and people.
- Slaughtering an animal as large as a Buffalo takes time, you've got to be careful with the guts/intestines etc or you ruin the meat, especially if there is no plentiful supply of water close at hand. So again this takes time and it takes people.
- Preserving is not done overnight, their main means of preserving meat was to dry it, that takes a lot of time, you've also got to be in the right sort of country.
- How did they carry it? First the freshly butchered meat (wet and heavy) Then the dried meat, not only how did they carry it but how did they keep it dry?

1000 Buffalo at a time, you say Metchosin? I'd say that that particular band of hunter/gatherers would be far too busy to:
- Dodge three large Army Columns specifically out looking for them.
- The Buffalo would not appreciate their presence either, so that would keep them on the move, making your job harder.
- Actively engage and defeat in two separate engagements two of those Columns (Custers and Crooks) whilst skinning and preserving Buffalo, and presumably tanning hides to wrap all that dried meat up in to stop it spoiling should it get wet.

Stilly River Sage - 10 Apr 06 - 10:11 AM

Yes SRS I am assuming that they were living off the land to rationalize the group size and their activities. That by definition is what "Hunter/Gatherers" do. That is why, in the dim and distant past, when hunter/gatherers came into competition from agrarian groups the hunter/gathers always lost out and had to move. It matters not one jot how expert these people were at building up stores, they would have transport those stores and for the North American Plains Indian that would pose some very serious problems. I dare say that there would be preserved (dried) food, how much? how is it to be kept dry? It all adds bulk, weight, effort and resources to the exercise, which is exactly what I was saying. Conditionally, what you say is very true in that "Living a nomadic life doesn't mean they didn't know where their next meal was coming from" - the condition? That your premise only holds good as long as those living that nomadic life aren't wandering around in groups of 20,000 people.

In terms of living off the land and the skill required to do it, Australia's Aborigines and the Bushmen of the Kalahari, have probably forgotten more than any North American Plains Indian ever knew or needed to know. The land they inhabit is far harsher and a damn sight more unforgiving, but take a look at the size of their populations and the size in terms of numbers of individual groups (two dozen is an extremely large group).

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST,Nitpicking bloody old sod...
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:55 PM

Oh, this should be fun. I predict that the wrangling over these quibbly little points and details will consume, oh...another 15 or 20 posts, and another few thousand words. Fun, fun, fun. Who will win? Ask me if I bloody well care. I know the Indians don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:05 PM

Back to the Whitechaple murders.

If Custer is of the hook and all the members of the plains tribes too - how about Errol Flynn?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Melani
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:58 PM

Teribus, I think maybe you're not paying close attention--I believe I said above that nobody credits the figure of 20,000. If you would like to see a detailed analysis of the probable size of the village, try the first chapter of Lakota Noon by Greg Michno. He examines a whole lot of different estimates, plus the number of tipis that would fit in X number of acres, etc, complete with grids. He has come up with about 3,000 all together, about 1,000 of whom would be warriors. If you would like to find out how Plains Indians dealt with killing and preserving buffalo, there are a lot of good anthropological studies that go into that in some detail. It is, after all, how they made their living, and they were good at it. They were gathered at the Little Bighorn for the summer buffalo hunt, and one reason people tend to think that the village was larger than it really was is that a portion of it had already started to move on when Reno attacked. When Gibbon and Terry came up on the 27th, they saw the marks where the village had been, but they also saw the marks from the part that had moved away a bit, so it looked like the village had stretched for about 4 miles. Michno says more like a mile and a half.

Nitpicking guest--actually, I'm having fun. If you're not, you don't have to monitor this thread. Of course, this is what I do for fun on the other forum, and if you guys think this isn't appropriate for Mudcat, we can always take it to lbha. Or not. I mean, isn't this why it's divided into Music and B.S.? And this is definitely the finest, purest B.S.

Shambles--did Errol Flynn ever play Jack the Ripper? Of course, he could have learned proper slashing style from the Lakota--very similar! Maybe Jack spent his younger days living on the Plains!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:51 PM

Don't think that he played Jack the Ripper. Here are some others he did not play.

http://www.notstarring.com/actors/flynn-errol

The star originally lined-up for The Adventures of Robin Hood was James Cagney!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:01 PM

Errol Flynn was absolutely NOT Jack the Ripper. Jack the Ripper was, however, Errol Flynn, only under an assumed name.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:07 PM

Teribus, don't assume anything about people agreeing with you, certainly not me. You're making large inaccurate generalizations all over the place.

Yes SRS I am assuming that they were living off the land to rationalize the group size and their activities. That by definition is what "Hunter/Gatherers" do. That is why, in the dim and distant past, when hunter/gatherers came into competition from agrarian groups the hunter/gathers always lost out and had to move. It matters not one jot how expert these people were at building up stores, they would have transport those stores and for the North American Plains Indian that would pose some very serious problems. I dare say that there would be preserved (dried) food, how much? how is it to be kept dry? It all adds bulk, weight, effort and resources to the exercise, which is exactly what I was saying. Conditionally, what you say is very true in that "Living a nomadic life doesn't mean they didn't know where their next meal was coming from" - the condition? That your premise only holds good as long as those living that nomadic life aren't wandering around in groups of 20,000 people.


These people were incredibly efficient hunters and storers food. They didn't go around all of the time in a group of 20,000, but they could easily come together for a time, as in fact they did in the Greasy Grass right before Custer arrived.

You obviously haven't read about the "nomadic" tribe's vast stores of food that were destroyed in winter camps (that did leave them destitute and dependent on their neighbors) after military raids destroyed their supplies. We're not talking "hunters and gatherers" as if there was no trade or agriculture going on at the same time. You're vastly oversimplifying the situation as it existed. Just because YOU don't know how they moved it, packed it, and kept it dry, doesn't mean they didn't do that.

I frankly have no time to go digging out the citations necessary to refute your unsubstantiated claims here. I have a job to do. But don't go on presuming circumstances and continuing to make uneducated presumptions just because people are too busy to call you on your mistakes.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:15 PM

Custer was a Lieutenant Colonel.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:21 PM

Bravo, Stilly. That is precisely the message I have been sending Teribus ever since I first witnessed the avalanches of stuff he pours forth on his keyboard when he decides he has an argument to win on this forum....

As you said, "I frankly have no time to go digging out the citations necessary to refute your unsubstantiated claims here. I have a job to do. But don't go on presuming circumstances and continuing to make uneducated presumptions just because people are too busy to call you on your mistakes."

That is what just about everyone would like to say to Teribus. The man is like a dog with a bone...he just won't let go of it. All for the sake of some imagined petty victory of his ego and his need to be "right". It has to be seen to be believed what lengths he wil go to, how much stuff he will look up, how much of his own and other people's time he is willing to waste in the effort.

That's massive insecurity. What you need, Teribus, is not to "win" another petty and useless argument on Mudcat, but to get some psychiatric counseling, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:23 PM

The soldiers did go away and their towns were torn down; and in the Moon of Falling Leaves (November), they made a treaty with Red Cloud that said our country would be ours as long as grass should grow and water flow.

Black Elk

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:45 PM

Or until such time as gold was found in the Black Hills (a/k/a Paha Sapa), or white people wanted the land, whichever came first.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 08:51 PM

Exactly. LOL! Treaties were never more than a stopgap to lull the Indians into a totally false sense of security until the next invasion and robbery took place...until finally there was just the usual thing the USA demands: "unconditional surrender"

After that? Rot in a reservation on the most worthless land that no one else wants. Lose your culture. Sicken and die (hopefully), and then you won't be a problem for America any longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 09:32 PM

Here's some stuff about Crazy Horse's, half-brother, whose name was Little Hawk. (Guess why I like the name...)

"Little Hawk is the younger half brother of the famous Oglala warrior Crazy Horse (1838/1842-1877). He was the offspring of the remarriage of Worm, Crazy Horse's widowed father, to a pair of sisters of the Brulé Lakota chief Spotted Tail, Iron Between Horns and Kills Enemy.

The name Little Hawk was given by Crazy Horse's uncle Little Hawk, who then took the name Long Face. Crazy Horse's half-brother, Little Hawk, was killed in 1871, on a war expedition south of the Platte River. His uncle abandoned his name Long Face, and took back the name Little Hawk again. Tribal elders were said to have believed that Crazy Horse's half-brother would have been a greater man than his brother, had he had lived, suggesting that the namesake Little Hawk was held in high esteem among the Oglala for his abilities."

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 09:35 PM

Another link to info about Crazy Horse, with some mention of his younger brother, Little Hawk.

Crazy Horse

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 09:47 PM

The death of Crazy Horse (Tashunca-uitco) is open to debate. He was either stabbed by a guard at the Ft. Robinson (Nebraska) guardhouse when Crazy Horse paniced as he was being locked up, or he paniced at being locked up and Little Big Man stabbed him, possibly with a knife made from a broken bayonet. In any case he lingered and died in the dispensary at Ft. Robinson; I believe that his father was with him at the end.

You can visit Ft. Robinson (it's a State Park) and stay in the one of the old officers' quarters.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 01:50 AM

Errol Flynn - the Real Jack the Ripper

If Kay Scarpetta can get a DNA match, we'll go for an arrest - either way he's hiding something. Rumour has it it's strapped to his leg.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 01:55 AM

Oh do come along Stilly (post 10 Apr 06 - 05:07 PM ) , make your mind up.

25th to 26th June - middle of the summer

The vast stores required to support such a vast number was located in their Winter camps - Was there a cold snap or something that June that drove all those Indians into their winter camps?

Easy for 20,000 to come together - take a look at the territory, think what it was like, try to imagine it 130 years ago - easy!! - bullshit.

Ask Melani what credance is put on the figure of 20,000 (Source Benteen). The source that Melani directs me to, the Author of "Lakota Noon", Greg Michno arrived at 3,000 all together, about 1,000 of whom would be warriors - Not that too far away from Wikipedia's estimate of between 950 and 1,200 warriors in fact.

One thing is for certain when it comes to over simplification, you certainly demonstrate that you do not have the foggiest notion what it would take to supply 20,000 people on the move. Under the circumstances the Lakota, Northern Cheyenne and Arapaho found themselves in, in the summer of 1876, it would have been hard enough with a fraction of that number. Your trouble would appear to be applying present day conceptions to yesteryears problems without acknowledging the limitations and constraints that would apply.

If you wish to believe that there were 20,000 Indians camped on the Little Big Horn then that is up to you. Logic and commonsense go against it and the only person who came up with that figure was Benteen - who, to the American public at the time was the man who let Custer down, the man who let Custer die. Now under those sort of circumstances he's not going to make light of the numbers of Indians opposing him - is he?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 02:51 AM

Do you reckon that it was Jack the Ripper who did for Crazy Horse?

I do understand that Big Prick himself sired a number of Little Pricks

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Melani
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 03:09 AM

Teribus and Stilly, for the THIRD time (she said gently), NOBODY gives any credence to the figure of 20,000. What Teribus said about Benteen is right on the mark.

There is an excellent article on the Little Bighorn in the current (June 2006) issue of "American History" magazine--the cover story, in fact. That article says 7,000, with about 2,000 warriors. Captain Myles Moylan, who was with Reno,said there were about 3,600 warriors--obviously a very different view of the same scene Benteen saw. That would have meant a village of maybe 7,000. That's what I mean when I say there are wild descrepancies in survivor testimony.

So the only solution is to read everything you can get hold of, and then pick a number you like.

The winter camps were not a static place, they were wherever each band decided to set up camp for the winter--usually a protected location, the Black Hills being popular. When their food stores were destroyed, it was along with their tipis and everything else they owned, the result of an attack. They were really screwed because hunting was immensely difficult, if not impossible, in the winter. That's why they were gathered at the Little Bighorn for the SUMMER buffalo hunt.I really suugest some general reading on the lifestyle and culture of the Lakota. I don't have anything off the top of my head, but I can look up and post some references, if you like.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 03:21 AM

no weeth my little grey cells I worked out zee Jack the Ripper solution perfectly, in a thread of zat name.

there was no horse inverlved. I would 'ave re-membered.

As for the 20 thousand Indians, Monsieur Terribus. How can you be sure. Did you see them leave? No you would not..you make zee elementary mistake.

you see the dead cowboys, who could be to blame. Ma Fois! you say, ze indians. You point to zee arrows sticking out of strange places. Mon dieu! you say quelle sauvage!

All the time the real murderer is making ees escape.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 08:17 AM

Yes, DNA evidence now confirms that Errol Flynn is, without a shadow of a doubt, perhaps Jack The Ripper. Or vice-versa. You can fool Dad, you can fool Mom, but you can't fool DNA evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 10:35 AM

I have no particular number in mind at Little Big Horn/Greasy Grass, Terrible. I simply offered an example of where you can find documentation of very good and adequate food storage during at that time in history in a certain context. People who can store during the winter can most likely figure out how to travel with adequate amounts. I'm not reading any more into it than that, and I picked the number because it has been bandied about. You just want to argue to argue, you don't want to come to a finer understanding of this topic, so why should I waste my time when nothing will suit you?

Families traveled to the Greasy Grass, not just warriors. There were a lot of people there at that rendezvous. They were managing to feed themselves. You really should read Sandoz's book. Get a feel for the period and the place from someone who did a lot of research on the subject.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Walrus
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 01:03 PM

While we're on the subject of Little Big Horn/Greasy Grass, perhaps someone out there can confirm or quash something I read (too)many years ago.
The tale, as I recall it, was thart, folloing the Custer slice-and-dice session a large chunk of the Lakota moved North into Canada where they were intercepted and surrendered to/were 'arrested' by a small group (one source suggested a single constable) of the North West Mounted Police.
Is this just an apocryphal tale or is there any truth in it?

W

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 01:21 PM

Sitting Bull took many of his people north to seek refuge in Canada shortly after the Custer fight, and he did negotiate peacefully with members of the Northwest Mounted Police. See a link here about it:

Sitting Bull in Canada

You can find several other sites that talk about it by doing a Google search for: Sitting Bull + Canada

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 01:22 PM

Following the Lakota victory at the Little Bighorn, Sitting Bull and Gall retreated to Canada, but Crazy Horse remained to battle General Nelson Miles as he pursued the Lakota and their allies relentlessly throughout the winter of 1876-77. This constant military harassment and the decline of the buffalo population eventually forced Crazy Horse to surrender on May 6, 1877; except for Gall and Sitting Bull, he was the last important chief to yield.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 03:17 PM

Teribus, I was referring to your and Custer's assumptions as being provincial eg. narrow in thought, culture and creed, with regard to any understanding of the first inhabitants of this land and the plains Indian buffalo culture. Perhaps that's what happens when military wankers and armchair generals get lost in their obsessive game and get hard-ons, nit picking their way through the minutia of historical battles as their primary way of sorting through things.

No one is arguing that sedentary agrarian culture did not eventually supercede that of the culture of the hunter gatherer in most places in the world. Regardless, Custer was ill prepared for what occurred on a number of levels at that specific time in history in spite of the ongoing decimation of the original inhabitants.

SRS, I also don't think Teribus quite understood the value of women in the plains Indian culture and he obviously hasn't chewed on enough pemican to understand the scale, preparation and value of their travel food that afforded them their mobility. LOL

The buffalo jumps of the Blackfoot in Alberta, for example, provided a setting for a massive scale of animal butchering and food processing in North America and did so for at least 8000 years. The scope of this slaughter was not superseded until the European took it up for sport and strategy.

Initially, and more so after the incorporation of the horse, the plains Indians were not a few ragged bands of scavengers, spending all their time eking out a meagre existence chasing a few rabbit or deer or dragging around a fly spattered rotting lump of fresh buffalo meat from place to place.

The fate of the plains Indian was not sealed primarily by military battle, but by their decimation by communicable diseases such as measles and small pox and the premeditated slaughter and subsequent extinction the North American Bison in the US. Eliminating the buffalo as the plains Indian's primary source of sustenance was a lot quicker, cheaper and a less dangerous means of getting rid of a "problem" than engaging troops to get rid of the "enemy" militarily.

" it is estimated that over 7.5 million buffalo were killed from 1872 to 1874. (General Pope and U.S. Indian Policy, p. 179)"

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 03:35 PM

A photo of Gall.
http://www.sd4history.com/Unit4/gall.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 04:17 PM

From Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West, page 200:

After the fight on the Rosebud, the chiefs decided to move west to the valley of the Greasy Grass (Little Bighorn). Scouts had come in with reports of great heads of antelope west of there, and they said grass for the horses was plentiful on the nearby benchlands. Soon the camp circles were spread along the west bank of the twisting Greasy Grass for almost three miles. No one knew for certain how many Indians were there, but the number could not have been smaller than ten thousand people, including three or four thousand warriors. "It was a very big village and you could hardly count the teepees," Black Elk said.

Farthest upstream toward the south was the Hunkpapa camp, with the Blackfoot Sioux nearby. The Hunkpapas always camped at the entrance, or at the head end of the circle, which was the meaning of their name. Below them were the Sans Arcs, Minneconjous, Oglalas, and Brulés. At the north end were the Cheyennes.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 04:36 PM

As I understand it the Lakota and Cheyenne got most of their year's food supply from the summer buffalo hunt. The buffalo meat taken was almost all dried into pemmican, and they were able to store enough food to get them through the winter. That's a lot of food. I imagine they had enough of it to camp in one place for more than three days if they wanted to.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 05:41 PM

Pemmican (pemican) could be stored for even longer than one winter Little Hawk. Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 05:45 PM

Very interesting stuff, Metchosin...

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 07:03 PM

Maybe I can get it out of my brain if I write it down.

I keep reading it as 'Errol Flynn's wife and General Custer.'

Out, damn spot!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 07:51 PM

Better than "Errol Flynn and General Custer's Wife"!!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 08:24 PM

If Flynn had been around back then, it might have been a problem soon enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 03:12 AM

Blessed is he amongst men, who doesn't know where his willy ends and his wife stops.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 08:20 AM

Very interesting link Metchosin

Having read through it my post of 10 Apr 06 - 01:37 PM wasn't too far out was it

"Buffalo ambush:
- Got to find the Buffalo first, takes time and people
- Wind/weather has got to be in your favour, luck of the draw
- You have to know the ground well enough to know when you can start your stampede, takes time and people.
- Slaughtering an animal as large as a Buffalo takes time, you've got to be careful with the guts/intestines etc or you ruin the meat, especially if there is no plentiful supply of water close at hand. So again this takes time and it takes people.
- Preserving is not done overnight, their main means of preserving meat was to dry it, that takes a lot of time, you've also got to be in the right sort of country.
- How did they carry it? First the freshly butchered meat (wet and heavy) Then the dried meat, not only how did they carry it but how did they keep it dry?

1000 Buffalo at a time, you say Metchosin? I'd say that that particular band of hunter/gatherers would be far too busy to:
- Dodge three large Army Columns specifically out looking for them.
- The Buffalo would not appreciate their presence either, so that would keep them on the move, making your job harder.
- Actively engage and defeat in two separate engagements two of those Columns (Custers and Crooks) whilst skinning and preserving Buffalo, and presumably tanning hides to wrap all that dried meat up in to stop it spoiling should it get wet."

A few other things came out of the link posted by yourself that would make this exercise even more labour intensive and more time consuming:

- The amount of 'kit' needed to perform this operation. This all had to be lugged about and set up.
- The amount of water required. Limits location and the water too has to be carried.
- Fuel for fires. Not much wood about, so it had to be dried dung, scrub and grass, all of which had to be collected on a continuous basis while all this was going on. Not much chance of keeping your location secret.
- Other ingredients, dried berries, marrow, if they were making/living on Pemmican, the marrow they'd get from the long bones, the berries they would have to gather and dry.

Pemmican:
What was it? There were just two essential ingredients: meat and fat. The meat, from buffalo, deer, or whatever other animals were available, was cut into thin strips, dried, and pounded into a paste. An equal amount of hot liquid fat or marrow was poured over it, and the mixture cooled and pressed into cakes. For flavor, cherries or berries were pounded and mixed in.

A pound of pemmican was said to be as nutritious as four pounds of fresh meat, and of course it kept much longer. Stored in rawhide bags, it would last for years. It is mentioned in English as early as 1791.

One question though, this all took place at the time of year when they were preparing to gather the ingredients and make provisions to see them through the coming winter. Would it therefore be correct to assume that having survived the previous winter by mid-summer provisions would not over-abundant? And that as their reason for gathering was for the summer Buffalo Hunt, would they not quite possibly have lightened the load with regard to dried foodstuffs as there would be more than sufficient fresh meat available?

By the bye, Little Hawk, the three days, if you read my post referred to much larger formations (50 to 80 thousand men) than the numbers we are talking about here, the principle still holds good though.

As you did mention it, I have eaten Pemmican, Beef Jerky and it's even better tasting African counterpart Biltong. I also would appear to have a far better appreciation of the work and effort required to prepare it than you. I have also 'field cleaned' animals, quartered them for transport and lugged them out to a point where they can be picked up.

Driving animals over cliffs to kill them in large numbers has been done the world over. It is an extremely wasteful method of hunting and in most other parts of the world the indigenous tribes developed better, more efficient means of trapping and killing the animals they needed to survive. Which led to capturing and rearing of certain species, which in effect became the first 'domestic' animals. The normal practice for your Plains Indians would be to isolate one 'herd group' of about 50 to 60 animals and drive them over the cliff. June would mean that the Buffalo would have just about developed their summer coats and be in the middle of the rut. The North American Bison normally really start putting weight on to see them through the coming winter from July to September.

Interestingly enough you referred to the introduction of the horse. Originally North America supported two types of horse dating back to the early ice age, both became extinct either due to climate change (not Bush's fault), or by over hunting (not Cheney's fault), or a combination of both. So the horses that the Plains Indians were galloping around on were the descendents of the ones brought over by European settlers. A village of at least 10,000 you say Metchosin - how many horses? Any idea how much grazing is required? The area over which those horses would have to be spread? Any idea how poorly a horse performs when fed solely on grass? Fed entirely on grass a horse has to spend most of it's time just eating to survive.

Until introduced to the 'white man' Metchosin the native American was a damn sight closer to our stone age ancestors than you appear to realise.

Custer and the 7th Cavalry were not defeated at the Little Big Horn because they were outnumbered by thousands (LH), they were not defeated because their enemy was better armed (LH). They were defeated primarily because Custer was a complete and utter prat and a very poor commander (A common trait in cavalry officers, best advice to most cavalrymen in combat used to be, "Leave the thinking to your horse lad - It's got a bigger head"). The men of the 7th Cavalry were ill-disciplined, poorly trained and badly led.

Over 7.5 million buffalo were killed from 1872 to 1874, that makes at least 6,843 per day throughout that period. Apparently the most dangerous season for wild bison is the spring, with the melting of lake and river ice. The buffalo habit of bunching tightly together, safe enough on hard winter ice, often proves fatal in spring conditions, and enormous numbers died when great herds were common. On one day in 1795, a fur trader counted 7 360 drowned individuals in a tributary of the Red River, west of Winnipeg. In recent decades large numbers have drowned in the Peace-Athabasca Delta region of Wood Buffalo National Park.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 01:35 PM

Yes, Teribus, Custer was defeated primarily because he was, as you say, "a complete and utter prat and a very poor commander". There were other factors too, and they should not be discounted, but his lousy leadership was the crucial factor. If Crook had led as badly at the Battle of the Rosebud, he might not have survived that encounter either, and he might have lost several hundred men rather than about 30.

I think, Teribus, that most of these long-winded debates between you and me and various other people here are unnecessary exercises. We all basically agree on the essential points. We can all look up and document stuff off the net and post it. That stuff may differ in some details when it is regarding something that can only be guessed at (such as the number of warriors who assaulted Custer's column). We can all examine every word another person posts with an eagle eye and find some tiny little nuance or some fact or supposition that they have not remembered to mention, and build a huge argumentative response based on that, proving that they are "wrong".

But so what?????? As I said, we all agree on the essential points anyway. Custer made bad and hasty decisions. He didn't wait for the other army column(s) to show up. He drove his men and horses to exhaustion before the battle. He divided a force of men that was already not strong enough anyway. He underestimated the strength and capability of his opponents. The Indians had better firearms and more fighting men.

You can go on and on....and so can the rest of us...but we basically all agree.

So, I see no point in you siezing upon this or that tiny detail and building a big case out of it. I just don't understand why you are so driven to argue with people about things like that and try to make them "wrong" (in your view). It achieves nothing. It irritates people. It's combative, to no purpose.

Why not just get together and enjoy discussing a subject that is of mutual interest for a change, instead of trying to prove that other people are wrong all the time, which seems to be what you feel you must do?   I cannot fathom your general attitude, because it seems to always be an effort to prove that others are wrong about something. That doesn't help build good communication.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 04:28 PM

Don't ruin my fun Little Hawk, I haven't bothered to be long winded in a coon's age.

Not a high likelihood of large herds of plains bison sinking into vast river deltas or lakes during the spring warm up, Teribus, the plains bison did not inhabit the same ecological niche as the other subspecies, the wood bison. I'm also not certain of your reason for pointing out the relatively small number, in the grand scheme of things, of wood bison that died of natural causes near Lake Winnipeg. That particular incident was a drop in the bucket, when compared to the plight of the plains bison during the same time frame, which were deliberately slaughtered at the encouragement of the various US administrations of the era, but thanks anyways.

I suggest you keep reading more of the history of the Blackfoot on the link I provided and others regarding north American wildlife......perhaps you'll eventually get some of your assumptions straight.

Also I suspect you haven't viewed any North American prairie grassland recently Teribus?

"A village of at least 10,000 you say Metchosin - how many horses? Any idea how much grazing is required? The area over which those horses would have to be spread? Any idea how poorly a horse performs when fed solely on grass? Fed entirely on grass a horse has to spend most of it's time just eating to survive".

Did I say 10,000? I don't recall giving any numbers regarding people Teribus, however, thanks for putting words in my mouth too.

Although my hunting days have long past, I do have some more recent experience regarding horses at grass, both here and in foothills of the Rockies. My horses did, for the past 13 or 14 years, and do very well indeed solely on grass and of a much poorer quality than that found around Fort Macleod, but then, they're of Arab descent and rather tough little fellows too....hmmm...a hobble on a dominant mare is one way which works well keeping them close at hand......can't feed horses solely on grass and perform well? Tell that to the herds of horses still running wild on this continent too. LOL

"1000 Buffalo at a time, you say Metchosin? I'd say that that particular band of hunter/gatherers would be far too busy...."

Actually, I was quoting one of the websites regarding Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump

Band? Check out their social structures before you go "bandying" that term about, Teribus. You're still having difficulty with scale, aren't you?

"Wasteful"? Buffalo Bull Shit! Only in a climate that allows you to live hand to mouth year round and doesn't require you to provision yourself for very long winters and other less predictable events. These people were survival masters on a grand scale. You want to understand wasteful, check out your own average UK garbage tip of today or the mounds of buffalo bones that was generated by the edict of officials of European descent during that time.

A highly communal, generous and efficient society and if it weren't for some of those people's expert generosity in providing tips and assistance, very few "civilized" individuals would have progressed farther across this land than their boats.

What are you attempting to demonstrate here Teribus? That the warrior culture of the plains Indian couldn't possibly have existed because you think the average Blackfoot adult male was too busy helping his wife and kids crack bones and stir grease pits? Or perhaps an Indian pony on prairie grass was so unfit from wandering around with his head down all day, that it needed the extension of a European hand to help it expand and flourish in order to have been of use to the native people of this land? Yeah.....right. LOL   

"Until introduced to the 'white man' Metchosin the native American was a damn sight closer to our stone age ancestors than you appear to realize."

I also don't recall saying I believed any North American indigenous technology was as advanced as the European, or even the Chinese for that matter, but their hearts and brains were as fully functional, and at times more so. And within suposedly industrialized societies, your average cowboy of European descent didn't devise an accurate calendar on his own and I'd be surprised to learn that sweet Peggy, in her low backed cart, could, not only write her own name, but had expertise regarding the cart's construction. Exactly how far from the stone age was the average Scottish crofter, save a few metal tools, you arrogant prat? LOL

Sounding even more like Custer with each sentence, Teribus, keep flailing about in the Big Muddy and patting yourself on the back, but beware the metaphorical arrows aimed at your willie. LOL

Metchosin, whose name is from the Ka-Ky-Aakan word "Smets-shosin". Wanna learn how to quickly dry some fish before it goes bad? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 05:48 PM

Actually, the indigenous cultures in the Americas -- and I'm specifically refering to North America here -- had a very advanced culture prior to European contact. I will refer you all to the Anasazi, the Pueblo, Cahokia Mounds, and the Mound Builders in general (e.g., Serpent Mound in Ohio) as examples. The date for human occupation in the Western Hemisphere is being continually pushed back, especially as underwater and other archeological surveys are done on the coastlines of of the Pacific Northwest regions.

It's now thought that one of the major factors in the extinction of the mammoth in North America was hunters.

You and I probably could not survive in their world. I suspect that they could easily survive in ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 07:36 PM

The extinction based on indigenous hunters is an old theory and has been debunked on several levels when a comparison of other extemporaneous populations that went extinct is made. Lots of things went extinct that probably had little role if any in the world of the cultures living in the New World before European colonization.

Until introduced to the 'white man' Metchosin the native American was a damn sight closer to our stone age ancestors than you appear to realise.

What a crock of shit.

Aztec calendars.

American southwest.

Mound builders and other pre-colonial architects.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 09:09 PM

I won't argue. I don't like to think that overhunting made anything go extinct, even though I know that's wishful thinking.

I asked a ranger at Chaco if there was any evidence of trade with the peoples of the Mississippi Valley, since there was overlap in time. She didn't know, but said that she would be surprised if there wasn't. There was much trade between peoples.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 10:10 PM

Errr... 'Scuse me for interuptin' all the hot air spoutin' but was a consensus ever reached on the size of Errol Flynn's dick? Seems like I remember a few people saying something about twelve inches, but then all this windbaggery intervened and my head started spinnin' and I can't be sure if I really read it or just dreamed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 10:47 PM

I posted a full-frontal nude photo of Errol, and no one seems to have noticed. It doesn't appear to be any longer than usual. This is in the flaccid state, mind you. I have no further information to offer, but I thought this was a really good start.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 10:51 PM

Well, the flaccid state...that doesn't really answer the question, does it? What we want to know is...could Errol use his willy effectively in place of a saber when aroused? If Custer had had this ability, it might have altered the whole course of the battle at Little Big Horn.

Then again...maybe not. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 11:00 PM

After Errol Flynn become very close friends with J. Edgar Hoover, Hoover gave Flynn the legendary phallus of Rasputin, which Hoover had obtained from the head of the Surete in Paris. This was grafted onto Flynn at a secret FBI laboratory in Quantico, Virginia, which was also used to inject Hoover with extracts made from goat glands.

Not many people know about all this.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: number 6
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 11:04 PM

I heard about Rapaire ... the guy down here in the paint section at our local Home Deport told me about it ... he had heard from a guy down at the Rapid Lube who told him he met a guy while travelling in the bus from Moncton to Fredricton that once supposidly had an affair with an ex-priemier of New Brunswick who heard it from one of Jack Kennedy's secret service body guards.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 11:11 PM

What we want to know is...could Errol use his willy effectively in place of a saber when aroused? If Custer had had this ability, it might have altered the whole course of the battle at Little Big Horn.

And if Custer had been in possession of a large silk bag and about half the hot air that's been spouted in this thread he could have floated away to safety.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 11:19 PM

Not if those Indians had filled it full of arrows and bullet holes, he woudn't have.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 11:29 PM

"Even armed as they were, in the position occupied, they only needed to form up in close order to repel a vastly superior force, deployed as Custer's men were, in extended skirmish lines they did not stand a chance as at no time could fire be concentrated, i.e. it was virtually everyman for himself from the outset. "

The documentary that went into the forensic evidence of the bullets and shell cases seemed to believe that Custer's men were mown down by a vastly superior fire rate, once the Indians had closed inside the greater range of the troopers guns. Once hand to hand they were chopped to pieces literally with hand weapons. Indians picked up trooper's rifles and used them - bullets and casing were matched and traced around the field - they even tracked one of the surviving guns. And there was no 'skirmish line' the bodies were found where they were cut down, running away, first to the 'last stand hill' then the last of them fleeing to a nearby gully. Go argue with the esteemed forensic scientists, if you don't want to believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 07:04 AM

My apologies Metchosin, the reference to the 10,000 came from SRS with the quotation from the Wounded Knee book.

I'm sure your horses were extremely happy and content munching away at all that grass. But what 'work' did they do, what time did they spend grazing compared to the time spent working. By the bye, all those herds of wild horses roaming around the US do nothing, they do not have to 'perform' at all. Draught horses, racehorses, cavalry mounts, they are the horses and types of applications were the horse has to 'perform' for hours on end, day-in-day-out - They are not fed on grass - oats, barely, corn - not grass. During Scotland's War of Independence, the borderers could run circles round the heavier mounted English knights, but each lightly mounted borderer carried enough oats to keep himself and his horse fed, they didn't eat grass.

As to stampeding animals and driving them over cliffs to kill them being wasteful. Once while hunting red deer, one of the party shot a deer which then fell about 45 metres. The deer weighed in at around 110 kilos of which, in terms of meat, only about 18 kilos was useable as a result of the fall. Now you go back into that Head Smashed In web site and have a good read through the archeological evidence unearthed, what types of tools were found - straight out of the stone age (stone axes, knives, scappers). The dig could state the numbers of Buffalo killed, it could not tell how many of those carcasses were just left to rot. As an old hunter Metchosin, once dead, and remember it's the height of summer, how long can you leave a carcass before it becomes useless? What tasks have to be completed very quickly in order to save the meat?

Now with regard to the "stone-age" reference, I thought at the time of writing it that I should have qualified that, as when writing it North American peoples such as the Aztecs, Mayans, etc did come to mind. My ommission was based on the premise that the North American Indians we were discussing were the Plains Indians who fought Custer at the Little Big Horn.

As for:
"Exactly how far from the stone age was the average Scottish crofter, save a few metal tools, you arrogant prat?"

Point 1, No need for name calling.
Point 2, Unfortunate choice of example. Because of the Reformation in Scotland in 1560 by about 1592, the time all you guys were celebrating the hundredth anniversary of Columbus's 'discovery' of the New World in 1492. Scotland was probably the most literate country in Europe, due to John Knox's insistance that every Parish shall have a school and every city a university, that education up to the highest level was to be open and available to all. If you want evidence of that Metchosin take a look at the history of the Agricultural Revolution and, more markedly, the Industrial Revolution and see the significant contributions made in both by Scots. In America's own Hall of Fame take a look at the number of Scots or those of Scots descent compared to the percentage of those making up the current population of America. The first man on the moon - Neil Armstrong, the President who sent him there Richard Nixon. Nixons and Armstrongs, both Scottish Border families, both from Liddesdale. The Scots also made their mark in many other countries they settled in most noticeable are in Canada and Australia.

Now tell us about - "The warrior culture of the plains Indian". Generally they had a culture of "raiding", not of warfare as we understand it. Raiding consists of surprise predatory attacks directed against other tribes or groups. The primary objective of raiding usually is to plunder and then to escape unharmed with the stolen goods. The objective is achieved by killing the men in the target community as well as kidnapping the women and children. Although planned in advance, raiding by it's nature, can never be sustained over a prolonged period of time, and there is often a finite period of time in which raids can occur.

Raiding proved to be a quick and efficient way for young men to gain a reputation and wealth in terms of the horses they stole and the women and children they captured. Within the North American Plains Indian tribes, boys were encouraged to be brave and aggressive. They also gave high status to those men who succeeded in raids. In lean years, or when population pressure forced competition for scarce resources, it is not surprising that these peoples prized aggressive, violent behavior among men. But please, don't give me the "Noble Savage" bit, it's a myth, their battles, or skirmishes, were token in terms of scale and severity compared to what the 'whiteman' knew.   Why? The population sizes were generally too small to create armies, let alone sustain them. However, when they did fight, it was rare for there to be many fatalities. They usually could not afford the loss of more than a few men. It would have be too great a blow for the tribe to withstand. Subsequently, when casualties did mount up, they often broke off combat and withdrew. Being essentially nomadic they did not need to conquer, they only had to discourage and drive off their opponents, taking whatever plunder was on offer.

Exactly the same was true in Africa until the Zulu Chief Chaka developed the tactics and armed his warriors with the assegai with the deliberate intent of killing large numbers of the enemy. Prior to that battles were token demonstrations, one side would outface the other, casualties were slight and the 'losing' tribe submitted and paid tribute. Chaka Zulu's concept from the outset was to conquer and enslave whoever opposed him, during his reign of 8 years (1820 to 1828) he was responsible for the deaths of over 2 million people (equivalent to almost the entire native indian population of the US today).

To put the Little Big Horn into context (it was the largest 'battle' against the whiteman that the Indians ever fought). Those stone-age Scots Metchosin, commanded by the Black Douglas (James Douglas) on a border RAID in 1388 fought a battle against the pursuing English at a place called Otterburn. The numbers involved Scots 4,000, English under Percy 'Hotspur' 9,000, English under the Bishop of Durham 10,000. Result the Scots defeated the English under Percy, those under the Bishop of Durham declined to fight. Just over 1000 English captured and about 1400 slain.

"A highly communal, generous and efficient society and if it weren't for some of those people's expert generosity in providing tips and assistance, very few "civilized" individuals would have progressed farther across this land than their boats."

True in relation to the few English settler's on the east coast, further North neither the French nor the Scots had any problems, likewise with the Spanish to the South. But nonetheless, those early settlers learned, they adapted, they improved, they flourished, in fact they did everything the Plains Indians failed to do.

Talking about the Spanish and the Ka-Ky-Aakan word "Smets-shosin", or "place of stinking fish", a Spanish naval Lt. was the first European to appear in Metchosin in 1790, next to appear was a certain James Douglas of the Hudson Bay Company - good heavens another one of those stone-age Scots (Douglas, probably the most famous Scots Border name ever) - he bought the place from the Ka-Ky-Aakan, in order to develop it as a Trading Post.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 07:16 AM

I think in battles between the Scotch and English, estimates of the size of the relative sides have to take into account that often many so-called Scotch forces would change sides before, during and after the battle, depending on circumstances. And depending on the money, titles and lands offered as bribes and inducements.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:04 AM

Ma Fois! you have all mersed le point.

Ze real murder-er was none other than Mary Custer.

When her 'usband had left the fort, she slipped from zee back entrance with le gatling gnu, which the General had so carelessly left behind.

care-ful not to be seen, she let her 'usband have it along with a few others for getting up their feelthy trix with red Indian ladies.

Make no mis-take, this was le crime passionel, Messieurs.

And once again zee leetle grey cells have arc de triomph-ed!

Alors!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:06 AM

Very true Shambles, but not at Otterburn, the Scots were on their way home at the end of a particularly successful raid. Otterburn came as the cream on the cake with both of the Duke of Northumberlands sons, plus a good many other English knights taken prisoner the ransomes that were paid came as an additional bonus.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:15 AM

I thought George Armstrong Custer was married to Libby, nee Elizabeth Bacon. Maybe he had TWO wives...or even more...like a sailor in port, maybe he had a wife in every fort...yes, that would explain "Mary."

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:36 AM

I suppose you could say he was interested in his com-fort...

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:15 AM

I'm not going to try to compare Custer and the the battle with American Indian tribes that had been impacted by European diseases and settlement for over 200 years prior to Little Big Horn with the battles of the Scots and the English. There may be parallels, but they're probably purely coincidental.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:22 AM

You've said a mouthful there SRS..

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:56 AM

The raiding, shooting from cover, ambushes, and other irregular tactics have worked pretty well over the years: the French and Indian War, Vietnam, Malay, Cuba....

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 12:50 PM

Enfin! You 'ave spott-ed the weakness in ma case.

'Owever, if we apply zee Gallic charm et le wet kipper and escargot technique of interrogation to raise her to a peak of sexual ecstasy, we may still extract a confession from Mary Custer - even if she is an existentialist, and uses her supposed non-existence as an alibi.

Non you cannot escape the remorseless logic of zee leetle grey cells!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 12:56 PM

Teribus prefers long answers, Stilly. He can then go over them with a microscope to try to find some tiny flaw to harp upon for another 5,000 words or so... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 02:37 PM

the Scots and the Indians both wore tough ex-army combat kilts

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 03:58 PM

I knew several people who got kilt in the Army.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:59 PM

Stilly River Sage - 13 Apr 06 - 10:15 AM

Point 1 Stilly
The Plains Indians had not been "impacted by European diseases for over two hundered years" at the time of the battle of the Little Big Horn.

Point 2 Stilly
The timespan over which the adversaries about which we are talking campaigned was less than fifty years

Point 3 Stilly
You would be amazed at the points of coincidence between what occured over the Anglo-Scottish Border and the campaign against the plains Indians, even down to how the names of individuals evolved. Only exception is while the wars against the Plains Indians only lasted less than fifty years, the raiding years of the border reivers along the length of the Anglo-Scottish Border lasted 350 years. When it came to raiding, Metchosin and SRS, auld pals - The Borderers (Both English and Scottish) perfected the art. So please don't dismiss it so lightly.

Next time you look at the conflict think of backward, totally eclipsed, doomed. Because that is what is was from the outset. There was nothing noble about it, just plain straightforward statistically predictable. Don't dress it up as anything different.

Such is History.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:05 PM

It's fun to talk, isn't it? And even more fun to demonstrate one's superior knowledgability. Yes indeed. C'mon, folks. Somebody give Teribus more stuff to chew on here....

When we finally exhaust the possibilities of arguing over the Plains Indians, we can start a thread on Captain Kidd and argue about whether or not he should've been hanged and where he buried the treasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:13 PM

Interesting that you noted our esteemed historical Governor. What a hoot! Do you think that Sir James Douglas owed his rise to prominence by some sort of genetic imperative primarily the result of his Scottish father? I don't. Why not suggest that his preeminence could have been the result of the amount of African genes supplied by his mother, if you believe in such stuff? And while you're pondering that, please note that good old Sir James' wife was the daughter of a Cree.

And why not consider the plains Indian in the context of the Mayans and Aztecs? It has as much relevance as the average Scottish crofter's brutish existence did to the lifestyle of the Kings and Queens of England at that time.

"Noble Savage?" What are you on about? My ascribing the first people of this continent with a heart, a mind and a mastery of tactical and survival skills, in the context of their environment, somehow equates with the European idea of the "noble savage"? What paternalistic, arrogant, racist crap! That term may be in your lexicon Teribus, but it definitely is not in mine.

Be it with stone blade or iron rivet, the idea of mass production was not solely the prerogative of a European mind. As Rapaire noted, I'd rather take my chances against a prairie winter at that time, with the provender supplied by the masters, than rely on the hunting expertise of some yob who'd once stalked a deer in the "old country". The North American prairie became littered with the sod huts of their failed aspirations and dreams, but don't let it gall you.

And while there, I'd contemplate the piles of bones and rotting carcasses of 2 million buffalo and perhaps cast my mind to a future where Agent Orange would become another bright idea for solving a "problem" by those supposedly far removed from the stone age.

Oh and by the way, the bay with it's nose in the grass on the right, carried me on its back tthrough a 7000 or 8000 foot pass and back, the day after I took this picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:40 PM

Must be a terrible burden for you Little Hawk to have to continually have your extremely superficial/total lack of knowledge demonstrated, but still, no matter, as yet you have failed to disprove anything stated so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:48 PM

Who is trying to disprove anything? That's not what brought me to this discussion. I came here because I am interested in the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:54 PM

Teribus, there's almost no point in answering your foolishness.

Point 1 Stilly
The Plains Indians had not been "impacted by European diseases for over two hundered years" at the time of the battle of the Little Big Horn.

Yes, they had. Europeans had been visiting North America for hundreds of years, touching on the coasts, traveling up the rivers. Mexico was seriously colonized in 1540, the Atlantic coast of the U.S. a few decades after that. Europeans brought diseases that traveled inland up rivers, via Indian travelers and traders, animals, and trade goods through Indian trade routes and wiped out populations long before they ever even SAW Europeans. Capiche? Want a book to read? I can recommend several. An easy one for you is Keeper of the Game, by Calvin Martin, which has a kind of whacko conclusion at the very end, but has stunningly good research all the way through until then.

When Europeans finally arrived in many inland areas the trees had already grown up over former Indian agricultural or village or grazing areas because entire villages were wiped out by measles, mumps, influenza, many things that hadn't been here before so there was no resistance. Scholars have extrapolated pre-contact populations to have been in the millions, and many millions died by way of introduced disease. By the time colonizers reach inland they in many cases thought no one actually had claim on the land because the populations were too sparse to continue to keep it in the "normal" way, to burn, to hunt, to grow, to gather, to raid, to do whatever.

Also consider the pressures of colonization. When the New Englanders arrived and they pushed the groups like the Iroquois tribes into the northern plains, those inhabitants of the northern plains had to move further west and south. Get it? The Sioux (Dakota, Lakota, many others) were originally a woodland tribe. So once again, the Indians were moving and were impacted before the Europeans even reached them.

This responds to only one part of your idiotic message. Don't presume that because I didn't answer any more of it that I in any way agree with any of your conclusions.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:55 PM

And we were all having a most enjoyable discussion about Errol Flynn and a movie he made about Custer when this thread started. That was why I came here. It interested me. I did not come here to debate minutiai in a silly game of oneupmanship with an Englishman who fancies himself the best informed person in the world on the Plains Indians (and everything else worth talking about). ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 11:07 PM

And Teribus, refer to the thread "the need to win" for insight into why you have not added anything terribly useful to this thread...and have rubbed several people the wrong way in your obsessive need to prove you know more about anything you're interested in than other people do.

It's an emotional habit of yours. It has nothing to do with truth, or with accomplishing anything useful, it's simply an endless series of attempts to enhance your own ego at someone else's expense. That's why people don't react well to it.

Your mind, Teribus, is leading you around by the nose. It's fooling you.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 11:43 PM

Metchosin,
In reply to your post of 13 Apr 06 - 10:13 PM

"Do you think that Sir James Douglas owed his rise to prominence by some sort of genetic imperative primarily the result of his Scottish father?"

Yes most certainly, it is a trait that you can discern right through the line of descent. By the bye, who ever you marry has got absolutely sweet fuck all to do with your own genetic make up - True? His wife could have been a pure bred budgerigar doesn't mean that the fucker could fly.

"And why not consider the plains Indian in the context of the Mayans and Aztecs?"

The Aztecs and Mayans were part of a great and ancient civilisation. They left their mark upon this Earth in tangible form that is without doubt undeniable and impressive. Your Plains Indians left what? A pile of Buffalo bones?

Oh by all means tell us about the "Scottish crofter's brutish existence" and about how it failed to affect the lifestyle of the rulers of the day. Then tell us about how the average Indian or Indian slave affected the life of a tribal Chief of the time. Perhaps you forgot about that in your rose tinted glass view of the life of the Plains Indians, they raided and stole horses, women and children. Now mayhap they required the horses for fairly honourable purposes, what of their female captives and their children - some equally noble and honourable fate no doubt - please inform us.

By the bye, Metchosin, I do not doubt for a second that you ascribe to the first people of this continent with a heart, a mind and a mastery of tactical and survival skills, in the context of their environment. Hells teeth anybody can survive with a modicum of common sense, what is remarkable is mankind's ability to aquire and apply knowledge to improve upon his lot, to become master of his own destiny. That the European did, the whole world over, and that is what the Plains Indian was incapable of, hence his ultimate and completely predictable demise. That has got absolutely nothing to do with paternalism, arrogance or racsim. It is purely a statement of FACT, more than adequately demonstrated by how things turned out - Again True? Believe what you like but that is the plain hard truth of the matter, and I do not give a toss whether you like it or not, it still remains the truth.

"stone blade or iron rivet" ??? Just what the hell are you talking about??

Oh by the bye, first ever example of assembly line mass production was solely the prerogative of a European mind, Portsmouth Dockyard to be precise. Pray tell what example of mass production can the Plains Indians put forward?

Now historically your so called masters when it came to surviving a prairie winter were hard pushed enough to get themselves through it let alone any visitors who might drop by, nice thought though Rapaire. So tell me Metchosin, regarding all those abandoned sod huts full of their failed aspirations and dreams, who now owns and farms those prairie acres today, the Plains Indians or the American Settlers. The honest answer to that question does not gall me one jot. By the way I did caution you about name calling, as to the survival skills that I have been taught and have used, I believe that I could give you a run for your your money in desert, ice or jungle. Metchosin you know precisely sweet fuck all about me, so please, like Custer, do not make the mistake of underestimation.

So the bay is only kept for recreational purposes, thought so, grass would for him, as a cavalry mount in Spain during the peninsular war he wouldn't have lasted one month the way you treat him.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:28 AM

Little Hawk - 13 Apr 06 - 10:55 PM
"I did not come here to debate minutiai in a silly game of oneupmanship with an Englishman"

Rest assured little hawk you haven't - I am not English.

Little Hawk - 13 Apr 06 - 11:07 PM

I realise I might not have added anything useful to this thread, but what I have added to it is at least based on fact and logic, compared to a lot of sentimental nonsense and drivel spouted by others, yourself included. As to having, "rubbed several people the wrong way", with regard to that charge I would only add, not before time, having read some of the purile crap spouted on the subject by yourself and others. You do not only need to be rubbed up the wrong way, on subjects such as this you need to be taught the objective study of History. That involves looking at any given subject or situation from all perspectives, this you continually fail to do to such an extent that by now I believe that you are totally incapable of it.

If you want to examine the truth of the matter I would back what I have stated before your version of events any day, oh great supporter of the underdog. Ego has got absolutely sod all to do with it, somebody comes out with a load of crap, I'll tell 'em in no uncertain manner. Strange how most of those conversations have been with you, and so far you haven't been able to refute one single fact that I have confronted you with.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:30 AM

By the bye, Metchosin, I do not doubt for a second that you ascribe to the first people of this continent with a heart, a mind and a mastery of tactical and survival skills, in the context of their environment. Hells teeth anybody can survive with a modicum of common sense, what is remarkable is mankind's ability to aquire and apply knowledge to improve upon his lot, to become master of his own destiny. That the European did, the whole world over, and that is what the Plains Indian was incapable of, hence his ultimate and completely predictable demise. That has got absolutely nothing to do with paternalism, arrogance or racsim. It is purely a statement of FACT, more than adequately demonstrated by how things turned out - Again True? Believe what you like but that is the plain hard truth of the matter, and I do not give a toss whether you like it or not, it still remains the truth.

That is enough of that, Teribus. You're a fool, a lout, you're stupid. You don't know what in hell you're talking about. You're just plain wrong about these tribes you're dismissing as inferior to Europeans because their cultures were different. You're not even on the same continent, you haven't studied or read anything meaningful on this subject. You're an ass. Stop this bigoted, churlish, pompous, paternalistic rant of yours and just get another thread to hang around.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:32 AM

Comming apart at the seams now , Sparky? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:35 AM

Tourette's acting up again too?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:43 AM

"what is remarkable is mankind's ability to aquire and apply knowledge to improve upon his lot, to become master of his own destiny. That the European did, the whole world over, and that is what the Plains Indian was incapable of,"

and it's THESE arrogant wankers who are pushing the environment ot collapse.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:47 AM

OK SRS,

You went to the trouble of quoting a passage of one of my posts now, rationally dispute it, as opposed to screaming and shouting about it.

Oddly enough enough I do not believe that you could factually dispute one word of it - because it is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:55 AM

Why would I wish to refute any of your facts, Teribus? It is not your facts I am objecting to, it is your continual pompous need to impress people with your knowledge that I am objecting to. Anyone can look up facts in books or on the Net and regurgitate them, and if I felt the need to be competitive with you in that respect I would, but I don't. I don't care. It isn't necessary for me to embarass you by picking apart your essays, because you do such a fine job of it all by yourself.

I simply LOVE to look at things from every possible angle...and I do. For instance, I defended Custer's bravery early in this thread, despite his other very obvious failings. (The man was not completely without useful qualities.)

Your ego has you by the nose and is wasting your time. Stop trying to win all the time. No one cares and it doesn't matter. You're a pain. You could bore the balls off a buffalo and drive sober people to drink. You're like a dripping tap in sore need of a plumber. You put the "p" in "pontificate".

Okay, so you're not English. Excuse that presumption on my part. What is your nationality, then? I was under the impression you live somewhere in the UK, but I realize that doesn't mean you must be "English". You could be several other things. Which would it be?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:57 AM

That's it Teribus, turn on the 'ad hominen' attack - means you KNOW you have lost, we certainly do...

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:01 AM

Oh, shit. You shouldn't have said he "lost", Foolestroupe. That is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. I fear that this thread will now reach at least 300 posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:08 AM

You talking to me, Metchosin? I'm just not mincing words. No Tourettes, just trouncing Teribus. ;-D

Sometimes you just have to swear. The rest of it I edited out through this thread, but this time I figured maybe he'd notice that he's insultingly annoying in his loud-mouthed ignorant portrayal of something he clearly doesn't understand. That's why I also used font size +2 to put it across.

LH, he doesn't have "facts," he has opinions based on what? Old movies? Comic book versions of the American West? He is clueless. He should be embarrassed to print this stuff in a public forum when so many can so easily see through his blustering nonsense.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:18 AM

Careful SRS

you keep saying things like that and I might begin to doubt the veracity of all his statements about the war in Iraq...

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:25 AM

Oh yeah, that's where I've seen his name. I usually avoid his posts. With this thread I remember why. (I don't read the war threads much now anyway. There's no way to carry on a reasonable discussion with his kind of hothead in there duking it out).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:27 AM

Well, Stilly, I feel that Teribus is a fragile soul, psychologically speaking, and that if I were to seriously question his, ummm..."facts"...that it might drive him over the edge into real paranoid dementia. I wouldn't want that. ;-) No, I hope to gradually calm Teribus down, gentle him, so to speak, and make him realize that his survival is not threatened in any way by people having a different opinion about Iraq or about how many Lakota scragged Custer and other stuff like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:35 AM

If this is the case, then surely I've pushed him over the edge this evening. I'll leave him in your hands. Until the next time. Go bail him out of the drunk tank. :)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:35 AM

What the heck. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:36 AM

Figured there was no point in luring Flamenco Ted into the middle of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:41 AM

As far as I can gather Foolestroupe the only person being attacked 'ad hominen' here is myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:48 AM

ROFL!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:51 AM

That's because you aren't able to look at it from alternative points of view, Teribus, as I've said before. ;-)

Pretty well everyone here has been attacked 'ad hominem' by now and has launched ad hominem attacks in return. There's nothing unusual about that. It's what happens when egos start arguing. It's inevitable. Look at the sorry display put on in every political campaign anywhere at all. LOL! Nothing but ad hominem attacks as far as the eye can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:51 AM

So pleased to have brightened up your day

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:52 AM

We're talkin' about ya, not to ya! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 02:00 AM

Thank God for small mercies

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 04:15 AM

Somehow one can't help feel that the essential nob joke is getting lost in all this frivolous talk of historical facts. Facts, which as we all know, can be interpreted in an infinite number of ways.

Some Indians got killed. some soldiers got killed. It was very sad for the people who knew tham.

I think I mentioned elsewhere that I was reading Ellen Poulsen's interesting book about the women who were connected with the Dillinger gang - 'don't call us molls' - is the title. Bloody miserable lives - they had.

Somehow you can't help but feel we are all voyeurs into this misery of people who died long ago, and maybe we should concentrate more on people we can help. Either that or come up with a decent nob joke.

from whence do you hale Terribus, I always had you down as a Brit?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 07:04 AM

All hail the Reigning Teribus!







If he can rain, you can hail!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 09:14 AM

Actually, many of those "failed farms" ARE now owned by the Indians, at least around here. And the potato and other crops raised and sold by the Shoshone and Bannock (also spelled "Bannack") tribes bring in some pretty decent money -- not as much as the casinos, but pretty good money nonetheless.

Other "failed farms" are actually buildings abandoned when the owners could afford to build new and bigger homes elsewhere on the spread. Some too were sold, for whatever reason, and consolidated into larger spreads. And yet another reason for abandoned buildings in the West is that they are old line camps that are no longer used (regularily, that is -- some are still used intermittently even if the roof IS no longer intact).

Dear Teribus -- I spent better than ten years administering both Unix- and Windows- based computer systems and I'm having to "pick up the screwdrive" a little bit again. I <+2>WOULD NEVER
Custer might have survived if he'd thought the same, instead of seperating his forces and having the hubris that took him and his men to their deaths.

And as for your "argument" that "Stone Age" (neolithic? paleolithic?) means "clumsy and backwards" -- at the turn of the 20th Century a surgeon in, I believe, the Netherlands used a neolithic saw to amputate a leg. It worked just as well and as fast as the best bone saw of the period.

And I will leave you with this thought, Mr. T.: a bow made from sinew-backed wood, such as were used by the Plains tribes, firing a stone-tipped arrow will kill you just as dead as a round from an AK-74 or and M-16A2; a stone axe will crush your skull as completely as a iron-headed mace; an obsidian dagger will work as well (or perhaps even more effectively) than a Fairbairn-Applegate knife.

And the Sioux and Cheyenne, at the LBH, had weapons far superior to those I've just described -- and contrary to uninformed opinion, they could use them as well as the soldiers (and given that rifle practice wasn't very common among the soldiers of 1876 -- see "Forty Miles A Day On Beans And Hay" -- probably better).

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 09:25 AM

I don't know what I did, but that statement should have read:

I would NEVER trust technology with my life if I could help it. That's why I'm expert with map and compass as well as owning a GPS, and know several ways of determining direction without a compass (e.g., I wear an analog watch). I don't believe in "putting all of my eggs in one basket," especially one as frail as technology can be.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 09:57 AM

The html was goofed up, as is revealed in the source code. I use caret then font="+2 followed by quote then caret, and close the different font with caret /font caret (let's see if this mix of code and words displays). Your closing code was caret/+2) with the extra + and no closing caret.

Black Elk and Mari Sandoz and Dee Brown all give good information about the variety of weapons available in the Greasy Grass. Here's a starting place. This is the cooperative association that works with the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 10:07 AM

You Irish Rapaire?

To be sure, To be sure, To be sure...

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 10:15 AM

The Documentary I mentioned before - released under a series name of 'Battlefield' or 'Battlefield Detectives' as it was shown on TV here in Oz, stressed the number and range and overall superior firepower of the Indians' weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:11 PM

SRS from your "starting place" I gleaned the following:

Point 1
It would appear that the general concensus of expert opinion backs up what is stated in the Wikipedia entry I submitted with regard to numbers present. The entry that you so roundly disparaged, don't go off into another hissy-fit and start screaming and shouting again, take it up with the historians and archaeologists who have studied this to a far greater degree than you or I ever will.

Quote from text - "Granted, numbers as high as 3000 have been given for the Northern Cheyennes but census records, testimony, and other records all indicate that this high a number was impossible for the 1876 period of time." - End Quote.

By the way in your ranting tirade did you really mean to use the word "paternalistic", or were you frothing so much you forgot to use patronising - no matter.

Point 2
The normal fighting formation for dismounted cavalry was in skirmish lines. Something else I believe I mentioned and was told I was in error.


Point 3
Weapons surrendered and ballistic evidence that identified spent rounds identified that the Indians fighting against Custer had just as many guns as Custer, i.e. 1 in 3 Indians engaging Custer was armed with a rifle. Which means that the bulk were armed with bow and lance.

Point 4
The normal effective range of the Springfield was more than twice that of the Henry repeater. In the hands of trained infantrymen the sustained rate of fire using the Springfield was greater than the repeater. Although the Indians had gathered some ammunition and weapons from their victory against Crooks, they were short of ammunition.


Point 5
Paul Hedren's opinion that very few of the 7th Cavalry's rifles jammed is completely at odds with the independent statements given by Reno and Reno's men. Personally and logically I can see only one reason why the weapons of one group of men should jam while exactly the same type of weapon being used in the same engagement should not jam. One group of men (Reno's) were in a position where they could use their rifles and they jammed for reasons given, whereas the other group (Custer's) were positioned where they could not effectively bring fire to bear on the enemy and their guns not being so hot did not jam.


Point 6
Bows and arrows were used in indirect fire by Gall's warriors in their attack against L Troop who were with Custer in the depression on top of a small hill.


Point 7
Custer had placed and deployed his men in a position where every single advantage they had, or should have had, had they been trained disciplined soldiers, was negated. Your recommended starting point states in terms very similar to those I used way, way, down this thread that had they formed their company in close order and fired in controlled volleys or half volleys they would have cleared everything in front of them. Volley fire would then have enhanced the effective range of the Springfield out towards 1000 yards.


Rapaire - 14 Apr 06 - 09:25 AM

"I would NEVER trust technology with my life if I could help it. That's why I'm expert with map and compass as well as owning a GPS, and know several ways of determining direction without a compass (e.g., I wear an analog watch). I don't believe in "putting all of my eggs in one basket," especially one as frail as technology can be."

Could not agree more, in my case the analog watch also has to be clockwork not battery powered.

Rapaire - 14 Apr 06 - 09:14 AM

Custer's men, or at least some of them, given their state of training and discipline, might possibly have got away with their lives if Custer had been killed by the very first shot of the engagement, someone might of emerged to actually provide leadership - One thing is certain Custer certainly was incapable of it.

I do not think that I did make any arguement advocating that "Stone Age" (neolithic? paleolithic?) means "clumsy and backwards". All I said originally was that at the time of this battle the North American Plains Indian was nearer to their stone age ancestors than either SRS or Metchosin realised. In what I have read, including articles recommended by SRS, Metchosin and Melani there was evidence that supported that point of view - you yourself in this post refer to a bow shooting a stone-tipped arrow. At the time the battle of the Little Big Horn was fought (1876) the North American Plains Indians had only ever 'domesticated' two animals, first was the dog, then later after the arrival of the Spaniards to the South, the horse. I will stand by my statement that they were nearer to their stone-age ancestors than is generally realised.

And I will leave you with this thought, Repaire, and please before jumping down my throat check SRS's sight with regard to weapons, your Plains Indian bow made from sinew-backed wood, firing a stone-tipped arrow will kill you just as dead as a round from an AK-74 or and M-16A2 - FROM A RANGE OF BETWEEN 30 AND 50 YARDS. A pencil or a sharp stick can kill you Repaire, lots of things can kill you, and it's all completely besides the point.

The Sioux and Cheyenne, at the LBH, had weapons far superior to those stone-age weapons you described -- However, they did NOT have superior weapons compared to the men of the 7th Cavalry who opposed them, as was Little Hawks contention.

Now logic would seem to indicate that if you have a group of men hunkered down in a depression on top of a little hill (Custer's position) unless you are on higher ground looking down on that position neither the attacker's or defender's guns are of much use to them. In this situation the Indians possessed the only 'indirect' fire weapon on the battlefield, the bow and arrow, and they used it to great effect against Custer's men. Not my supposition here Repaire, but eye witness account and statement.

As to whether or not the Indians could use those guns as well as the soldiers? Well against the calibre and standard of training of the soldiers of the 7th Cavalry certainly, although they did not defeat Reno or Benteen's troopers, and that was more of a straightforward gun action. Again, not my supposition here Repaire, but eye witness account and statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 02:15 PM

This is gonna be somewhat longish and somewhat technical. Skip it if you wish.

Teribus, here's the list of the minimum number of individual firearms used at the LBH. You can find this list as table 6-1 in Richard Allen Fox, Jr.'s book Archeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle (Norman, Oklahoma: U. of Oklahoma Press, 1993) p. 78. Fox and others went over the Custer site with metal detectors, finding shell casings and fired bullets to arrive at this list.

Forehand and Wadsworth .32 caliber, 1; Colt .36, 1; Sharps .40, 1. In .44 caliber: Smith and Wesson, 3; Evans, 1; Henry, 62; Winchester Model 1873, 7; Colt conversion, 1; Colt Model 1860, 1; Colt Model 1871, 1; Remington Model 1858, 1; Remington Model 1858 conversion, 1; Ballard, 1. In .45 caliber: Colt Model 1873 pistol, 12; Springfield Model 1873 carbine, 69; Sharps, 1; Unknown, 1. In .50 caliber: Maynard, 1; Sharps, 27; Springfield, 6; Unidentified, 1; Unknown .50 balls, 1. Others: Star .54 caliber, 1; Spencer .56/56, 2; Spencer .56/50, 3; Enfield.577, 1; Unknown .44 or .45 caliber balls, 2; Unknown shotgun, 1.

Thats a MINIMUM of 215 individual firearms. The arrows used were all metal tipped.

Here is what is said (p. 241) about the .45/55 carbine's failure to extract. The evidence is taken from cartridge cases picked up at the Custer site; the author also discusses the Reno site.

As to the former category of evidence [torn, pried or scratched cartridge cases], only 3 of the 88 (3.4 percent).45/55-caliber cartridge cases recovered from the Custer field exhibit pry or scratch marks; none displayed a ripped or severed cartridge-case rim. The cases with pry marks represent 3 of the 69 individual carbines (4.3 percent) discerned on the basis of firearm identification analysis. With a figure of 210 carbines in the Custer battalion, 4.3 percent would suggest that about 9 carbines used and the Custer battle could have experienced extraction problems.

As for the assertion that the Henry rifle wasn't accurate beyond about 50 yards, I submit the following; you can read the entire thing http://www.rarewinchesters.com/articles/art_hen_04.shtml.

In showing the type of sights that were used and given the fact that most soldiers were average or less marksmen, it is doubtful if they could hit a target beyond 200 to 300 yards. An accomplished marksmen would hit with any gun including the Henry. When we look at the type of ammunition used in the Henry, it is doubtful that even an expert marksmen could hit targets regularly at long ranges of over 500 yards with a Henry.

Let's examine the type of ammunition that was used in the Henry. The Henry cartridge is a rim-fire round that uses a casing .875 inches long. The total length of the round is 1.345 inches. A 200 or 216 grain bullet of .446 diameter was loaded atop 26 to 28 grains of black powder. This round had a muzzle velocity of 1125 feet per second and muzzle energy of 568 foot pounds of energy.(8) According to these ballistics, most shooting experts will readily agree that this cartridge is hardly adequate for deer size animals and certainly no match for buffalo or grizzly bears. The .44 Henry's 200 grain bullet is a flat nose bullet, later a pointed nose was used, with a ballistic coefficient number of about .153. The coefficient number is the bullet's ability to overcome resistance in flight relative to the performance of a standard projectile used to compute ballistic tables. A number of .153 represents a bullet of very poor long range capabilities. The .44 Henry must have had a giant rainbow trajectory making hitting a target past 200 yards almost impossible for the average shooters.

The average soldier during the Plains Wars had, if he was lucky, three weeks training -- primarily in close order drill, guard mount, and other such "soldiering" techniques -- before being sent to his unit, where he was expected to pick up the necessary further instruction. Riflery was NOT emphasized until the Army Reforms of the 1880s -- and then the soldiers took to it with such enthusiasism that by the Spanish-American War in 1898 the American soldier are a very good shot indeed. (See Forty Miles A Day On Beans And Hay for an excellent discussion of these topics, among others.)

Custer may have taken the best of the Regiment with him, but their training most probably left quite a bit to be desired when they were faced with Gall, Crazy Horse, and the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 02:23 PM

Lots of good information there. Lovely. Nice documentation. So...has anyone "won" yet? ;-)

There are several little details in your post that I could dispute, Teribus, but I don't really care. We all have the same basic understanding of what happened at the battle of LBH, and to carp at each other over minor points is nothing more than an exercise in....

the need to win

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 02:44 PM

"Fox and others went over the Custer site with metal detectors, finding shell casings and fired bullets to arrive at this list."

"The arrows used were all metal tipped."

They cannot make that second statement with any degree of certainty, If they went looking with a metal detector all they would find would be metal tipped arrows.

Otherwise what is said is of no great variance to what has already been said. SRS's "starting point" gives a far more detailed breakdown of the weapons used on each side, including the weapon return registers of Crazy Horse's band. The 1873 Model Springfield was sighted in somewhere between 500 and 600 yards. It's Maximum Effective Range (2% change of causing material damage) was 1000 yards. The Repeating rifles that the Indians had were said to be good for 250 yards and difficult to reload.

From what you have posted no credance at all seems to have been given to Reno or Reno's men's statements regarding their rifles jamming. Subsequent to the action the 4th Cavalry which relieved the 7th insisted on being equipped with Repeating rifles because of the lack of confidence the troopers had in the Springfield.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 03:13 PM

Sorry 'bout that, but the evidence simply doesn't back what the troopers said. I suggest you read the book -- and remember that the statements were taken after the battle from soldiers trying to explain or excuse their defeat. Later statements, by Gall, Rain-in-the-face, White Bull, and others were very possibly "telling the interviewers what they wanted to hear" -- something that is not at all unknown even today.

Here's another extract from the book (p. 253) -- it will be my last word on this particular subject:

...the repeaters as an instrument of shcok, coupled with the liability of the single-shot carbine in close-in fighting, probably contributed significantly to the demoralization among the right-wing men and, ultimately, to the entire battalion. The shock effect was magnified by the likelihood, based on archaeological data, that the Indians has at least 200 repeating rifles. (Emphasis mine.)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 03:14 PM

He doesn't want to read the book, Rap. ;-) He wants to win the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 05:27 PM

No one has yet mentioned Custer's reputed last words.
Please forgive the accent
" I just dont understand it, all those chaps were singing and dancing last night "
I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong? :<}>
Keep up he good work folks

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 06:13 PM

Paternalistic is exactly what I meant. Treating the people you're discussing as if they are "childlike" situates you in a paternal position. My html was to get your attention, and my cursing was because you deserved it and I felt like it.

By the way, I stopped at that paragraph, I don't have time for your nonsense. I'm not reading any more of your posts, Teribus, so if you're writing for my benefit you're wasting your time. Your sources are not very good and your reasoning is nonexistent. Go waste somebody else's time.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 06:23 PM

Kenny, Custer's last words were actually, "Holy f*****g sh*t! Where'd all them Indians come from?"

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 08:14 PM

He probably said something a bit like that, all right. ;-)

In moments of extreme emergency "Shit!" is the most common expletive used by far, and this is confirmed by black box recordings from airplane crashes.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 09:27 PM

Shambles and Teribus - the Terrible Twins of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 09:29 PM

This just in: Custer's last last words were "Ouch! Ouch! Oowee!"

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 02:44 AM

OK, Stilly's reason for cursing is settled.........but Teribus never explained why he was using bad words?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 03:08 AM

But what about Errol Flynn's willy?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 04:44 AM

we haven't got on to that yet.....we'working up to it, saving it for after lunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 08:52 AM

see I told you we'd start dicking about after lunch....

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 10:17 AM

"Go back through the postings on this thread and show me where I have made any 'ad hominen' attack on anyone posting to this thread."

I don't remember saying that about either of The Terrible Twins!

But both are like a dog with a bone - both will worry it to death, and both will tend to bore stupid anyone within earshot who just wanted to have a light pleasant conversation, and maybe learn something. Shambles carries on about matters of 'opinion', Teribus about matters of 'fact'.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 01:27 PM

LOL! What fun to read all those ad hominem attacks on Teribus again. Thank you for copying and pasting them, Teribus. I stand by most of mine, but I guess I should really not have said I "detest" you. That was insensitive. I admit that there are moments when I detest you, but mostly I am just irritated by you, so pardon me for having gone a bit too far that time.

By the way, I also mentioned that you could "bore the balls off a buffalo" somewhere back there...and I think it's worth being included on your list.

Foolestroupe's example of the similarity between your behaviour and that of Shambles' is right on the mark. You should print it out and attach it to your monitor as a reminder.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 01:47 PM

ah yes the spirit of Thomas Gradgrind

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 04:15 PM

But what about Errol Flynn's Willy? Was he killed with Custer? And if so, how did he ever meet Errol Flynn? And what, exactly, was the relationship between Errol Flynn and "his Willy"? And what was Willy's last name?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 04:31 PM

I don't know the answer to your questions, Rap but I do know they traveled together. Make of that what you will.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 04:57 PM

"So the bay is only kept for recreational purposes, thought so, grass would for him, as a cavalry mount in Spain during the peninsular war he wouldn't have lasted one month the way you treat him."

Well you "thought" wrong Teribus, but then when has any deep thought entered into your assumptions. LOL! That bay you summarily dismissed just because I rode it, was not my own horse, nor was he a recreational mount. That particular thrifty animal earned his living week after week, at elevations and on terrain that would cripple or kill the average recreational lawn ornament in a day.

Be assured, that working pony was as tough and fit for his job as any of his ancestors, whether from the realm of the Hun, the peninsula of Spain or eventually full circle back to the Americas. Any horse that multiplied in the wild on this continent, that was not tough, of relatively small stature and also of prime importance, of a very efficient metabolism, did not survive the rigors of predation by wolves, grizzly and cougar, nor the regular onslaught of summer fire and winter blizzard.

The term "arrogant prat" is not meaningless, Teribus.

arrogant - making or implying unwarrantable claims to dignity, authority, or knowledge; aggressively conceited or haughty, or overbearing.

prat - one who behaves in an unintelligent way, especially when this causes exasperation or leads to time wasting.

That said, I apologize to you for calling you an arrogant prat. It would have been more appropriate on my part to have posted that the general tenure of your ideas, implied a claim to authority or knowledge in an aggressively conceited, haughty and overbearing manner, that is of a most exasperating and time wasting nature. However, feel free to call me the same if you wish . LOL Now regarding your use of the "F" word twice in a post directed at me.......hmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 05:23 PM

Teribus, the horses used by the American Indians were and are well known for their stamina and all-around toughness. And they ate grass pretty much exclusively during Spring, Summer and Fall. During the Winter they ate what they could get, including tree bark.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 06:17 PM

Thanks Rapaire, that's it in a nutshell. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 07:00 PM

Nah, it's just that I see 'em all the time out on the Sho-Ban Rez. Danged good horseflesh as a rule. And I know what the old timers said about Indian horses.

Cowboy horses were treated pretty much the same, only in the Winter they might eat hay cut from the wild grasses. Oats and other grains were very much sometime things.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 07:02 PM

The most natural food for horses IS grass, is it not?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 07:05 PM

probably is for us too, but I bet its a bit unsatisfactory

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 07:07 PM

Prairie grasses fed herds of millions of buffalo, antelope and other critters. They also fed lots of cattle and, in some cases, still do. The grasses are very nutritious.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 08:43 PM

Your Horses Metchosin and Rapaire - in Spain they would not have lasted one month. Now ask yourself the question, and I don't give a damn if you answer it her on this forum. Why was the wealth of a man counted by the number of horses he had? - Because he needed them. They had fuck all stamina, the Indian brave had to change horses many many times provided he had them, that is why the number was so important.

Now remember that they carried only a fraction of the weight a troopers horse would carry - for a troop of cavalry how many remounts used to accompany a cavalry patrol. Hint None.

Left to eat the grass he does Metchosin your horse would be blown in one day if you actually put him to work.

My last word on this thread goes to Metchosin, Stilly River Sage and to Little Hawk, who have proved that they are entirely incapable of carrying on a conversation outwith fawning sycophancy - the lot of you can go fuck yourselves. You are without doubt the most pig ignorant bunch of bastards that I have ever had the misfortune to come across.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 09:09 PM

I hope you routinely soap out your mouth, Teribus. Your mother didn't teach you to speak that way to women or to wise and gentle souls.

Not on subject but your talk about horses made me think of this song:

Scatter My Ashes
Buddy Tabor, Juneau, Alaska

A cowboy lay dying, his day almost done
He'd spent all his life 'neath Nevada's hot sun
His friends grouped about him to tell him goodbye
But his soft final words made them tough cowboys cry:

Won't you scatter my ashes where the mustangs run free
Them wild running horses mean freedom to me
Tear down your fences and let them herds be
Them wild running horses mean freedom to me.

In the sweet smell of sagebrush after a summer storm
Way up in Black Canyon them wild colts were born
But he never did chase them; it wasn't his style
And whenever he saw them it brought him a smile

Won't you scatter my ashes where the mustangs run free
Them wild running horses mean freedom to me
Tear down your fences and let them herds be
And whenever you see them, won't you please think of me

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 09:13 PM

look you two want to argue about bloody crap that nobody bothered writing down at the time, cos nobody gave a sod even then - form your own thread.

this is my thread and its about Errol Flynn's willy

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 09:40 PM

LWD, your thread?

Ebbie, up until my post of 15 Apr 06 - 08:43 PM I had treated everybody on this thread with the utmost respect. Foolestroupe called me to task without justification, and now you have on the strength of just one post. Where was your self righteous indignation during the ten posts personally attacking me. If those responsible deem that that is the way that discourse and discussion are carried on on this Forum then so be it, those individuals will find out that in those terms I can give as good as I get.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 11:19 PM

weelittledrummer

I agree, there's been too distraction on this thread - I think it's hish time that we all sunk our teeth into Rrrols Flynn's willy!


ooooooo, er, ah... did I say that?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 11:36 PM

You just don't get it, Teribus. It is your obsessive need to argue with people endlessly and pedantically and go on and on and on and on about it at such incredible length trying to prove you are RIGHT and they are WRONG...it is that which eventually makes people angry enough that they start getting rude with you. It is simply beyond most people's endurance after awhile. You are an unusual case in that regard.

How many other people would receive the sort of response you have gotten from myself, Stilly, Foolestroupe, Mechosin, and various others? How many others get that sort of a response from us? Virtually none.

Doesn't that make you suspect it just might have something to do with you, not us?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 11:56 PM

Indeed there is also a similarity between Teribus and the infamous MG of being unable to back off and quieten down once they step on somebody's toes....

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 01:56 AM

Teribus, you are a fool. You want to argue fine points with scholars who have the background and the resources and citations to either remember or to look up and report facts regarding the battle in question.

There can be various interpretations of any given event like this, but we're basing our conversation on the numerous accounts that we have read and the further research by natives, historians, and archaeologists in the field. The nonsense you're shoveling into the discussion has nothing to do with anything except your misinformation from who-knows-where and, as Little Hawk has observed, an obsessive need to be right even when you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

You owe everyone here several apologies, but I for one won't be holding my breath waiting for them.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 02:09 AM

not to mention Errol Flynn, this modest homage to his willy.....well it's been desecrated and shown scant respect.

You're an extremist; and all too inevitably, one is reminded of the worst excesses of the French revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 02:31 AM

Does anyone recall the enormous cannon that was the centrepiece of the move "The Pride and the Passion"? Well, rumor has it that that very cannon was modeled on none other than...Eroll Flynn's willy! Yes, the mightiest tool in the history of Hollywood lived on in the symbolic form of a fabled iron-hard instrument of war that was considerably longer than it was wide! It really is surprising that Sophia Loren fell for Carey Grant during the making of the film, considering what was sitting right there in front of her all the while...

She must have been blind.

If you get a chance, rent the film. It's worth seeing just to observe one of the worst miscastings in history: Frank Sinatra portraying a Napoleonic-era Spanish guerilla leader. His quasi-Spanish accent is dreadful and he is in no way convincing as the character "Miguel".

"By all accounts, Frank Sinatra was at his most obstreperous throughout the making of this film. Among other things, he refused to use the car supplied him by the studio, insisting upon having his Ford Thunderbird flown all the way to Spain at the studio's expense. In addition, he almost caused an international incident when he hung a banner from his hotel room window reading "Franco is a Fink", referring to Spain's dictator, Francisco Franco. In hindsight, Sinatra referred to the whole experience as "underwhelming".

Aren't we lucky that Frank Sinatra never got to portray General Custer in a movie....or Crazy Horse, for that matter?

The made-for-TV movie "Son of the Morning Star" is a very good film of Custer's life, adventures, and death, plus a good look at the Plains Indians he fought against.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: heric
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 02:32 PM

LH you don't want to see Charlton Heston painted brown and playing a Tijuana cop in Touch of Evil.

It would have been nice, however, to see him in a blond Custer wig.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 02:46 PM

I still want to know about Flynn's obviously "good friend", Willy.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: heric
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 03:00 PM

Willy was a good friend who always stood up for Errol. He just never got a fair shake. Errol was always standing in his shadow, and other people thought he was big-headed.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 04:52 PM

You're saying the Errol was always putting Willy to it, huh? Ol' Willy must have been able to cut the mustard some, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 05:21 PM

"Ebbie, up until my post of 15 Apr 06 - 08:43 PM I had treated everybody on this thread with the utmost respect."

Are you absolutely certain Teribus? I've highlighted some of the foul language in your 13 Apr 06 - 11:43 PM post to me, in response to my post of 13 Apr 06 - 10:13 PM. It could make some ladies blush. LOL.... And I have some further questions regarding your post.

Metchosin's question 13 Apr 06 - 10:13 PM:   
Do you think that Sir James Douglas owed his rise to prominence by some sort of genetic imperative primarily the result of his Scottish father? I don't. Why not suggest that his preeminence could have been the result of the amount of African genes supplied by his mother, if you believe in such stuff? And while you're pondering that, please note that good old Sir James' wife was the daughter of a Cree.

Teribus' response 13 Apr 06 - 11:43 PM:
Yes most certainly, it is a trait that you can discern right through the line of descent. By the bye, who ever you marry has got absolutely sweet fuck all to do with your own genetic make up - True? His wife could have been a pure bred budgerigar doesn't mean that the fucker could fly.

Did I suggest that his Irish/Cree wife's genes had anything to do with Sir James Douglas's prominence? Unless one believes the old saw about "behind every great man there is a woman..." Interesting conclusion to a fact I only included as it linked to plains Indians.

Why not include the genes of Sir James' mother Teribus?.. since you seem to ascribe a simplistic uber alles importance to the genes of ethnic groups? Perhaps Nelson Mandela might be flattered...but I rather doubt it. Only the genetic makeup of the sire of critical importance? I have a recollection of similar ideas eminating out of Nazi Germany not that long ago....oh, that's right....they weren't that keen on cross breeding.

Perhaps Sir James Douglas' rise to prominence was fueled by a burning desire to prove himself as equal or better than those about him, at a time when people were judged harshly on their ethnic origins...or perhaps he just happened to be around in a society that had few others about that could read and write well....or perhaps it was just blind luck.

Teribus' statement 13 Apr 06 - 11:43 PM re mass production:
"first ever example of assembly line mass production was solely the prerogative of a European mind, Portsmouth Dockyard to be precise."

The idea of mass production solely the prerogative of the European mind? Only to those whose ethnocentricity blinds them to other examples beyond their sadly limited powers of observation.

Metchosin statement of 13 Apr 06 - 10:13 PM:
I'd rather take my chances against a prairie winter at that time, with the provender supplied by the masters, than rely on the hunting expertise of some yob who'd once stalked a deer in the "old country". The North American prairie became littered with the sod huts of their failed aspirations and dreams, but don't let it gall you.

Teribus' response of 13 Apr 06 - 11:43 PM:
"I believe that I could give you a run for your your money in desert, ice or jungle. Metchosin you know precisely sweet fuck all about me"

Pray tell? You have lived in a sod hut recently?

Did I challenge you to some sort of currently popular extreme sport competition? LOL

And was my reference to "gall" a bit cryptic or is that what brought about the bad language ?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 07:25 PM

and he keeps calling them plains indians.

I'm sure many were considered quite attractive.

a loin cloth does something for a man. Has anybody seen where I could get a tough army combat loincloth? If I can get the courage I should like to wear it for my holiday in Skegness next February. I'll be a sensation in Butlins.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 08:44 PM

Teribus' statement 13 Apr 06 - 11:43 PM re mass production:
"first ever example of assembly line mass production was solely the prerogative of a European mind, Portsmouth Dockyard to be precise."

The Romans did it first (at least according to survibibg documents!) - 16 waterwheels running 24 hours a day grinding flour in an automated plant that fed grain from hoppers... etc... many other such examples, also perhaps the traces of which have not yet been uncovered, many of the sites being under more recent settlement. A period Roman writer wrote 10 books on the machines of the period, including this = of course the books he based his work on, and many other records have been lost.

As the old song says - 'gets Tedius, don' it?'

Oh no - All hail Tedius Teribus!

Sorry, now I can't keep a straight face...

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 09:04 PM

What happened to my post bout getting back to sinking our teeth into Errol Flynn's Willy?

Could Shambles have a ... no!

MUST NOT THINK THAT!
MUST NOT THINK THAT!
MUST NOT THINK THAT!
MUST NOT THINK THAT!
MUST NOT THINK THAT!

BRAINWASHING CYCLE COMPLETE!

Ok, better now...

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 09:08 PM

Foolestroupe, not to fear. You'll find this: I" agree, there's been too distraction on this thread - I think it's hish time that we all sunk our teeth into Rrrols Flynn's willy!" on April 15, 11:19.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Apr 06 - 09:21 PM

I told you, it wasn't Flynn's. It had orginally belonged to Grigori Efimovich Rasputin. Recent Freedom of Information Act document releases show that it passed into the hands of J. Edgar Hoover, who lent it to John Dillinger and after a little Lover's Tiff was retrieved by Hoover who gave it to Errol Flynn. Flynn gave it to almost everyone he could.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 02:03 PM

Ah - Russia's greatest love machine....Another Ripper suspect?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:11 PM

Ahem. All seriousness aside, I am currently (re-)reading Dee Brown's Wonderous Times On The Frontier. In it, he tells of the "hunting" trip of the Grand Duke Alexi of Russia. Seems like the Duke wanted to see Indians as well as shoot buffalo, so ol' Phil Sheridan told some of the fellas out west not only to set up a (very luxurious) camp for the Duke, but to get Spotted Tail to bring about 100 warriors there too. Naturally, G. A. Custer was one of those who was to help the Duke shoot buffs.

Well, Spotted Tail brought more than 100 of the Brule Sioux -- he brought their families as well. Including his own wife and daughter, Red Road.

Custer and the Duke took a shine to Red Road, but Custer had the inside track, knowing sign language and all. At one point, a newspaper reported that ol' George asked Red Road if he could put her earrings in her ears. She assented, and Custer took quite some time doing it -- and to do so he had to wrap his arms around her. When he'd finished, according to the newspaper, Georgie stole a kiss from Red Road right in front of Spotted Tail.

Ol' George wasn't as true to Libby or anyone else as he would have led you to believe...except, of course, George A.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 04:37 PM

Oh, well, he was true to her in the "Custer" fashion...meaning, true, but not exclusively true. ;-P

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: number 6
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 04:57 PM

Actually Libbie was not so faithful to George as one would beleive ... she was had a sizzling affair with a Trooper Elijah Johnson, who was well known around the 7th Calvary as having a very large appendage (so to speak). George having found out about this illicit affair between Trooper Johnson and his beloved wife chased him out of the army. In doing so George actually (in all probability) spared Elijah's life. Though Elijah was not heard from again, and his whereabouts where never known ... he did leave behind a legacy that still is here today ... and that is what people jokingly refer to a large willy as a Big Johnson.

True story.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 11:05 PM

This is sounding more and more like the lives of Penelope Rutledge and Winston Wellington-Jones with every succeeding post...

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 03:09 AM

Why do we now appear to be on first-name terms with such a man?

What next - Georgy Porgy or just G?

Custer will do just fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 08:59 AM

"Georgy Porgy "

Not suitable - the girls didn't run away!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:10 AM

They couldn't run away. And neither could Georgey-Porgy when the Sioux finished with him.

Did you ever see the Gary Larson cartoon, "Custer's Last View"? Just a view upwards to ring of grinning Indians....

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:08 AM

Interest in Errol and his thing seems to on the wane, and I never did get an answer to the original question. I think it highly probable that nobody knows. Its one of them things, we'll never know. Did Hollywood sanction his flashing, or just not notice....?

However I am cheered by the fact that Mrs Custer has at last been unmasked as the murderer, and that an indeterminate number of terribly attractive Indians in their tough combat loin cloths have had their names cleared of this heinous act.

Justice has been a long time coming.

A fair precis.....?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 05:10 AM

Interest in Errol and his thing seems to on the wane,

Well you can't keep it up forever......

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 10:40 AM

Oh, Shambles!

(You're finally going with the flow!)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 11:08 AM

Custer could'a!

I have recently discovered a manuscript in the handwriting of Errol Flynn stating, "When they took the picture I had a bananna in my pocket -- I really wasn't happy to see anybody right then, considering the hangover I had."

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 11:19 AM

I understand there was something in the waters of the Little Big Horn.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:20 PM

Well, yeah -- blood, among other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 11:55 PM

What I thought was most fascinating about the Little Big Horn was that afterwards, unwilling to believe that Indians could have beaten a West Point grad, Custer fans came up with the idea that Sitting Bull was actually a renegade who had attended West Point.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:01 AM

What??????????????????????

Never heard that one before. If true, it is proof that human arrogance and pretension know no bounds. But I already knew that. ;-)

There were similar foolish rumours in WWII that the Japanese Zeros which were generally massacring their opposition in the South Pacific in the first 6 months of the war were cheap imitations of a prewar American design (!) (the Hughes racer or whatever...) and that THIS was why it was superior to just about any frontline American fighter plane it encountered in the first year of the war... Duh! Uh...this is supposed to make some kind of sense???

Har de har har! Amazing, the crap people make up in order to keep fooling themselves that only they are the biggest and the best that ever was or ever could be...and everyone else is just playing catch-up.

The Japanese suffered from that kind of hubris too. In the end it always proves costly. It did for Rome. It did for Germany. It did for Japan. It did for Custer. It has done and shall again for the USA.

"Pride goeth before a fall." And in politics...creative lying on a grand scale usually goeth after said fall...except in the case of a total, absolute, and final defeat. Maybe even then.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:38 AM

The US lost Vietnam because of those bloody TV cameras - kept them under control in Iraq this time HA! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:01 AM

So if the Sioux and Cheyenne had been covered by television, Custer would have won. Custer should have have realized that and left the reporters at home. Heck, I'll betcha that the reporters with Custer wouldn't have minded one bit being left at home -- along with the entire 7th Cav.

But then, Custer didn't exactly graduate at the top of his class at The Point, either. Some thought that he might not have graduated at all if the Civil War hadn't happened and he hadn't cheated a bit on the exams.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:13 AM

Rapaire - I'm a ittle confused, is the USA _WINNING_ in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:23 AM

No, they're just feeding America's young men and women to the meat grinder. Bush and Rumsfeld are turning the crank.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:40 AM

If D-Day Had Been Reported On Today

by William A. Mayer

Tragic French Offensive Stalled on Beaches (Normandy, France - June 6, 1944) - Pandemonium, shock and sheer terror predominate today's eventsin Europe.

In an as yet unfolding apparent fiasco, Supreme Allied Commander, Gen. Dwight David Eisenhower's troops got a rude awakening this morning at Omaha Beach here in Normandy.

Due to insufficient planning and lack of a workable entrance strategy, soldiers of the 1st and 29th Infantry as well as Army Rangers are now bogged down and sustaining heavy casualties inflicted on them by dug-in insurgent positions located 170 feet above them on cliffs overlooking the beaches which now resemble blood soaked killing fields at the time of this mid-morning filing.

Bodies, parts of bodies, and blood are the order of the day here, the screams of the dying and the stillness of the dead mingle in testament to this terrible event.

Morale can only be described as extremely poor--in some companies all the officers have been either killed or incapacitated,leaving only poorly trained privates to fend for themselves.

Things appear to be going so poorly that Lt. General Omar Bradley has been rumored to be considering breaking off the attack entirely. As we go to press embattled U.S. president Franklin Delano Roosevelt's spokesman has not made himself available for comment at all, fueling fires that something has gone disastrously awry.

The government at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is in a distinct lock-down mode and the Vice President's location is presently and officially undisclosed.

Whether the second in command should have gone into hiding during such a crisis will have to be answered at some future time, but many agree it does not send a good signal.

Miles behind the beaches and adding to the chaos, U.S. Naval gunships have inflicted many friendly fire casualties, as huge high explosive projectiles rain death and destruction on unsuspecting Allied positions. The lack of training of Naval gunners has been called into question numerous times before and today's demonstration seems to underlie those concerns.

At Utah Beach the situation is also grim, elements of the 82nd and 101st Airborne seemed to be in disarray as they missed their primary drop zones behind the area believed to comprise the militant's front lines. Errant paratroopers have been hung up in trees, breaking arms and legs, rendering themselves easy targets for those defending this territory.

On the beach front itself the landing area was missed,catapulting U.S. forces nearly 2,000 yards South of the intended coordinates, thus placing them that much farther away from the German insurgents and unable to direct covering fire or materially add to the operation.

Casualties at day's end are nothing short of horrific; at least 8,000 and possibly as many as 9,000 were wounded in the haphazardly coordinated attack, which seems to have no unifying purpose or intent. Of this number at least 3,000 have been estimated as having been killed, making June 6th by far, the worst single day of the war which has dragged on now--with no exit strategy in sight--as the American economy still struggles to recover from Herbert Hoover's depression and its 25% unemployment.

Military spending has skyrocketed the national debt into uncharted regions, lending another cause for concern. When and if the current hostilities finally end it may take generations for the huge debt to be repaid.

On the planning end of things, experts wonder privately if enough troops were committed to the initial offensive and whether at least another 100,000 troops should have been added to the force structure before such an audacious undertaking. Communication problems also have made their presence felt making that an area for further investigation by the appropriate governmental committees.

On the home front, questions and concern have been voiced. A telephone poll has shown dwindling support for the wheel-chair bound Commander In Chief, which might indicate a further erosion of support for his now three year-old global war.

Of course, the President's precarious health has always been a question. He has just recently recovered from pneumonia and speculation persists whether or not he has sufficient stamina to properly sustain the war effort. This remains a topic of furious discussion among those questioning his competency.

Today's costly and chaotic landing compounds the President's already large credibility problem.

More darkly, this phase of the war, commencing less than six months before the next general election, gives some the impression that Roosevelt may be using this offensive simply as a means to securere-election in the fall.

Underlining the less than effective Allied attack, German casualties--most of them innocent and hapless conscripts--seem not to be as severe as would be imagined. A German minister who requested anonymity stated categorically that "the aggressors were being driven back into the sea amidst heavy casualties, the German people seek no wider war."

"The news couldn't be better," Adolph Hitler said when he wasfirst informed of the D-Day assault earlier this afternoon.

"As long as they were in Britain we couldn't get at them. Now we have them where we can destroy them."

German minister Goebbels had been told of the Allied airborne landings at 0400 hours.

"Thank God, at last," he said. "This is the final round."

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 11:14 AM

You've heard the saying, "It doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's how you play the game." Custer is reputed to have said this just before dashing off with a partial regiment and scoring a moral victory over the Sioux and Cheyenne.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 01:52 PM

Don't be silly, Dave. That report about D-Day sounds like one you would have heard in Berlin at the time to me.

I've seen the Allied propaganda from that time (in print). It was melodramatic, bombastic, exaggerated, inaccurate, and self-serving (just like the German and Japanese propaganda)...but the Allies were winning, which helped, didn't it?

Today's American media has, on the whole, been an almost completely compliant cheerleader for the USA's War in Iraq in the early stages, and they continue to be so most of the time now. It is the general public that is losing heart, because they can plainly see that Iraq is turning into an insoluble nightmare, a probable civil war, with no forseeable end in sight. Besides, they were blatantly lied to about WMD. Remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 04:21 PM

I somehow doubt that Custer ever scored a moral victory over anyone... ;-P But I may be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:33 PM

Saw a doco about the Gallopoli fiasco - it seems the real problem was the geology, followed by the lack of accurate aerial survey maps (1915!) which resulted in poor planning. Churchill was responsible for this, and it haunted him the rest of his life: don't forget that he was obsessive about ensuring the D-Day landings were well planned.

In some ways Gallopoli was almost a medieval type battle: 100 men with a few well sited Maxims were able to obstruct 3,000 troops in some cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:59 PM

Churchill kind of had another go at Gallipoli with his theory about the "soft underbelly of Europe" in WWII. The German defence of Italy turned out to be anything but a soft underbelly, since the Italian geography is ideal for setting up a series of almost impregnable defensive positions.

My father was in the fighting in France, Belgium, and Germany, from D-Day plus 4 on. He has said many times that if the Allies had not had air supremacy it would not have been a good situation, given the effectiveness of the German tanks and other equipment the Allied forces were facing. He said that in his entire period of service, from Normandy to V-E Day, he never saw ONE German airplane overhead. He saw thousands of Allied aircraft, and they were routinely called in to smash German armour and dug-in positions.

He had, by the way, seen a great many German aircraft in 1940...over southern England. That was back when the Luftwaffe was still fully capable of mounting an offensive campaign in the West.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:14 PM

From Son of the Morning Star (already cited here) - page 223:

"News of the the Little Bighorn calamity was at first discredited. Americans could not believe that Sitting Bull had defeated General Custer. A few days later, when there was no doubt, they refused to admit that an uneducated savage could have defeated a West Point graduate. So it was alleged that a mysterious swarthy youth from the Great Plains, nicknamed "Bison", had attended West Point and there absorbed the military science that laid General Custer low".

As Rapaire points out, Custer did not do well at West Point. In fact he graduated 34th in a class of 34. Interestingly enough, the Custer apologists had Bison graduating in the upper third of his class. (Well, at least the honor of the Point would be preserved).

There were rumors Sitting Bull had graduated from West Point, could read French, and was familiar with Napoleon's tactics.

In fact there was a cadet at West Point nicknamed Bison. Swarthy, bull neck and "in character from first to last a wild animal".

But a few problems for the Sitting Bull theory. "Bison" was a nephew of a US Senator from Illinois. And most seriously, he was killed by Indians near Tubac Arizona about 1870.

Unfortunately Son of the Morning Star is not footnoted--but there are copious quotes. Very probably the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 11:13 PM

Custer also faced a truly devastating problem: his command disintegrated. Suddenly faced with the shock of many, many more Indians than they anticipated -- Indians who were literally fighting for their families -- Custer's men hesitated and began a disjointed retreat that turned into a rout. They bunched up, as men in deadly combat will, command and control was destroyed, and in effect the companies simply dissolved into small groups and individuals fighting overwhelming numbers.

This has happened before -- at Agincourt, for example, when the English archers searched through piles of French bodies "as high as a man" trying to find live foes to hold for ransom. It happened to the French army in WW1 when 54 out of 100 divisions refused to serve at the front. And it has happened before and it will happen again.

Couple this with the lack of training Custer's men had -- at that time soldiers were trained by the regiment, piecemeal, no formal course of instruction; little or no marksmanship training; and a dare-devil, devil-may-care leader who seems to have made a habit of winning by attacking, and you have a disaster.

True, the Indians did not fight as a cohesive body, but when the enemy is broken the enemy is beaten and you don't need a Napoleon or a Robert E. Lee to destroy them.

By the way, the forgoing analysis is derived from archealogical studies of the battlefield -- and modern knowledge of combat psychology.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 12:27 AM

"Actually Libbie was not so faithful to George as one would beleive ... she was had a sizzling affair with a Trooper Elijah Johnson, who was well known around the 7th Calvary as having a very large appendage (so to speak). George having found out about this illicit affair between Trooper Johnson and his beloved wife chased him out of the army. In doing so George actually (in all probability) spared Elijah's life. Though Elijah was not heard from again, and his whereabouts where never known ... he did leave behind a legacy that still is here today ... and that is what people jokingly refer to a large willy as a Big Johnson."

Number six, where did you get that story? I would love to see documentation!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 03:21 AM

yeh, and polaroids......

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Walrus
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 06:58 AM

"...Saw a doco about the Gallopoli fiasco - it seems the real problem was the geology, followed by the lack of accurate aerial survey maps (1915!) which resulted in poor planning. Churchill was responsible for this, and it haunted him the rest of his life: don't forget that he was obsessive about ensuring the D-Day landings were well planned..."

Matters weren't helped by the idea that the campaign should begin with the Navy starting the assault without the benefit of any troops other than the marines they carried (fine for raiding, but insufficient to hold ground) and before there were any soldiers available, thus providing a warning for the defenders not only of the possibility of attack, but also of the likely area of any such attack.

I wonder if this could have been one of the inspirations for the deception operations of D-Day?

This thread seems to have drifted a little.

W

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 08:04 AM

not drifted.....you can't have a drifting willy. That would be ridiculous.

It's just the way the willy swings....

There have been small swings in the direction of the gentle breezes of opinion, in which it has been dandled.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 08:51 AM

Dandled? Don't you mean "handled?" I assume that EF handled it, at least sometimes. And Custer, too -- not Errol's, but his own. And I'll betcha that, given the arrow, some Indians handled Georgie's as well. Seems like 'most everyone at the Custer battlefield was handling George's at one time or another, except maybe Reno and his bunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 10:45 AM

For a complete about face as far as training, marksmanship, and strategy, look at Sargent York. It's worth watching just for that turkey call in the battlefield near the end. :)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Walrus
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 09:14 PM

From: Stilly River Sage

"...For a complete about face as far as training, marksmanship, and strategy, look at Sargent York..."

But, if you believe the film, the markmanship involved was largely self taught and predated enlistment

W

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST,Jack
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 12:41 AM

Hi everyone,
Not much of a historian but I am a huge fan of old Errol Flynn swashbucklers! I have seen all his movies and read several biographies of him, including his excellent autobiography My Wicked, Wicked Ways. I was just doing a Google search and discovered this forum, and wanted to help answer Weelittledrummer's original question.

I also watched They Died with Their Boots On again just lately on TCM and I know those revealing early scenes you're referring to – it's when the young General Custer joins West Point at the very start, right? You can clearly see this obscenely large outline of his willy through the tights he's wearing! Lol. Later on there's a night-time empty barroom confrontation between him and another character, and Errol is wearing black trousers – not skin-tight like the tights earlier – and again he shows a massive bulge. Well, it ain't padding. That nude photo that was posted earlier of Flynn with a rather average-looking endowment is actually a well-known industry fake, albeit an impressively convincing one that has fooled many people so far. Supposedly Flynn never posed for any full-frontal photos in his lifetime (there are a few bare-chested "beefcake" publicity shots and a few of him posing in swimming trunks), but he would happily whip it out at his legendary house parties. Truman Capote wrote a biography of his friend Marilyn Monroe where he talks about the time she went to one of Flynn's parties, where he entertained his guests by playing You Are My Sunshine and The Star-Spangled Banner on the piano using only his willy! True story, and Marilyn confirmed that it was indeed huge even in its flaccid state. The estimated figure I have most commonly read for Errol's willy is a whopping 11 inches long, though two or three sources cite it as being 10½ inches.

Oh, and YES, Errol's studio bosses at Warner Bros. DID insist that he strap down that huge willy against his thigh to avoid "embarrassing protuberances" (their words) and had it written into his contract, though allegedly he got tired of performing this uncomfortable routine towards the end of his career and would let his willy run wild and free inside his tights. One quote has him as saying something like "If Don Juan didn't have to strap it down, then neither does Errol Flynn!" So to answer your original question, he WAS actually "strapped-down" in 1941's They Died with Their Boots On! Haha, guess they didn't do a very effective job of hiding it, huh?! Must be hard to conceal an 11-inch willy. For whoever's interested, you can also see undeniable evidence of Errol's big bulge in The Charge of the Light Brigade (1936), The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938), The Sea Hawk (1940) and The Adventures of Don Juan (1948). However in most of his other costume pieces he either wears those long frilly pirate-style shirts untucked over his trousers, or else is "hidden" by careful camera angles during the fencing scenes. According to the biographies I've read, this was also a deliberate studio decision.

An interesting pic from The Sea Hawk which Weelittledrummer may appreciate, hehe:
http://www.errolflynn.net/Miscellany/sh13.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 03:34 AM

bloody hell!
this thread was getting nearly as long as Errol's dong.
after 300 postings - all kinds of speculation, as to who was wearing feathers and who wore a mini skirt, and who took care of the handbags down at the Little Big Horn, we get a calm authoritative answer to the original question.

Thank you Jack, you're all right.

as indeed are the rest of you for providing little spasm of entertainment in my dull, uneventful life.

all the best
Big Al Whittle
(sadly not named Big Al for any reasons comparable to Errol)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 11:40 AM

I'm glad someone has addressed the presence of that nude photo. It was always at the back of my mind that it was a fake, but I found no discussion of it.

Jack, do you have any citations to go with the biographies you mention reading? This is interesting, and is the answer that people started groping for 298 posts back, but a couple of sources would be helpful.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST,Jack
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 02:51 PM

Hello again folks.

I have read so many Errol biographies over the years that I can't be 100% sure which piece of info comes from which source, but I'll give you a list which will hopefully help a bit. Among the most memorable bios are Michael Freedland's "The Two Lives of Errol Flynn", Charles Higham's "Errol Flynn: The Untold Story", Lionel Godfrey's "The Life and Crimes of Errol Flynn", Gerry Connelly's "Errol Flynn in Northampton", John Hammond Moore's "The Young Errol Flynn Before Hollywood", Don Norman's "Errol Flynn: The Tasmanian Story", Earl Conrad's "Errol Flynn: A Memoir", Tony Thomas' "Errol Flynn: The Spy Who Never Was", Buster Wiles' "My Days with Errol Flynn" and Thomas/Behlmer/McCarty's "The Complete Films of Errol Flynn". Not completely Flynn-based but still worth a read for related info is Kenneth Anger's "Hollywood Babylon Parts 1 & 2", David Niven's "Bring On the Empty Horses", James Robert Parish's "Hollywood Bad Boys – Loud, Fast and Out of Control", Paul Young's "L.A. Exposed: Strange Myths and Curious Legends about the City of Angels" (which contains a section called Hung Jury where the author lists 50 well-endowed stars), Mitchell Symons' "The Celebrity Sex List Book" and Amy & Irving Wallace's "The Intimate Sex Lives of Famous People" (hey, you asked – lol). In his comically sleazy book "Penis Size and Enlargement", Gary Griffin devotes a chapter to "Well-endowed Celebrities" – a who's who of penis size in Hollywood, and of course Errol's 11-incher is top of the list. Also worth watching if you ever come across them are Channel 4's "Secret Lives" (1996) and TCM's "The Adventure of Errol Flynn" (2004). But my personal favourite remains Errol's own posthumously released 1959 autobiography "My Wicked, Wicked Ways" – a fascinating, very funny, intelligent and articulately written memoir that I'd highly recommend to any fan who hasn't already read it.

In 2000, Marlene Dietrich biographer David Bret wrote a pretty controversial unofficial bio called "Errol Flynn: Satan's Angel", which is chock-full of lewd innuendo and salacious hearsay – it tells of how he "allegedly" liked to turn his back on director Michael Curtiz in front of the entire cast and "loudly break wind" (which the young Olivia de Havilland apparently found hilarious, p. 42), how he had same-sex encounters with actors Bruce Cabot, Helmut Dantine, Tyrone Power and Rory Calhoun as well as numerous female co-stars (e.g. Hedy Lamarr, Doris Duke, Barbara Hutton, Shelley Winters, Gloria Vanderbilt, Greer Garson, Lupe Velez), and that he enjoyed masturbating in omelettes which he then served to his houseguests (p. 159)! It also mentions an anecdote which was later confirmed as true – that Errol had the make-up team on The Adventures of Don Juan mold him a giant, lifelike prosthetic willy which he would regularly shock crew members with by sticking it through his unzipped fly as though it were his own willy. "Satan's Angel" is seen as the most tacky and perhaps unreliable biography, but it is nonetheless fun to read, and often laugh-out-loud funny.

I've read countless other tall tales of his outrageous practical jokes in the other bios too – that he masturbated on Hollywood gossip columnist Hedda Hopper's doorstep before asking "Will you invite me to come here again?"; that he once planted a dead snake in Olivia de Havilland's leggings "for fun" (something de Havilland has since confirmed as absolutely true several times over); that he kept a mural in his home of fish performing the Kama Sutra; that he owned a huge armchair which turned into an inflatable penis when sat on; that many of his personal possessions, such as bookshelves and cigarette lighters, were shaped like genitals; that his yacht Sirocco was such a hotbed of sexual activity that he frequently flew a flag reading "FFF" – short for "Flynn's Flying Fuckers". Another anecdote that appears to be true is that during his heavily alcoholic later years, when he was banned from drinking on film sets, he spiked oranges with vodka and eat them during his breaks! One last thing: if you go to http://www.anecdotage.com and do a search on "Errol Flynn" you'll find countless funny anecdotes on his life, though one can't vouch for their authenticity.

Oh, and there have been no comments yet on my pic of Errol in tights with a pet monkey! Are you just jealous or was it just so disturbing that you've erased it from your memories? Haha.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 09:43 PM

Holy crap! I might have known...

I read "My Wicked, Wicked Ways" and it was a very entertaining book. What a character. He was definitely the greatest film swashbuckler of all time.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 12:14 AM

That thorough answer then begs the question--what sparked all of the interest in Errol Flynn, or is this a portion of a knowledge base based on Hollywood? That's an impressive list of readings. Sounds like there's a lot about Flynn to get a rise out of readers. . .

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 05:51 AM

And how come nobody ever does that for a floor spot?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 11:38 AM

Poor chap. It appears from the monkey picture that Errol's portubance was in the middle of his left leg.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST,Pashdear
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 04:10 PM

Speaking of old Errol Flynn movies on TCM, did anyone see The Adventures of Don Juan this past Saturday afternoon? Great fun romp for swashbuckler fans, and my eyes nearly popped out of my head when I saw the size of the package in Errol's skintight leggings. How the hell did the censors let them get away with showing such obvious dick outline? Pretty obscene. I actually feel a bit sorry for Errol having an 11 inch willy - it can't have been too much fun to haul around or have to strap it down to your leg!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST,Sean
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:13 PM

Wow, that's a very hot pic of Errol's big bulge with the monkey!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:37 PM

Guess he liked monkeys.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: number 6
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 09:19 PM

Hey Chongo ... Errol Flynn's over there and I hear he has a big banana

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:27 PM

Somewhere out there, there is a recording called, "Songs of Custer and the 7th Cavalry". I know because I have heard it. It includes Gary Owen as well as Captain Jinx of the Horse Marines sung by a very clear and pure soprano.
Last year, 2005, I danced with the Lakota at the Custer Street Fair in Evanston Illinois.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:31 AM

From the Custer Museum

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 06:01 PM

There is also an outfit called Custer's Last Band that plays the music and arrangements of Felix Vinatieri, Custer's band leader. The band was left behind at the Yellowstone, so Vinatieri survived to eventually produce a great-great (I forget how many greats) grandson named Adam who will be known to you football fans.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 06:14 PM

He was a mass murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 06:19 PM

And he got what he had coming to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 07:16 PM

I suppose it was the fault of when he was a kid, people were cruel to him and said, here comes old rhubarb and custer.....

One day someone wearing a loincloth, or living in wigwam did that very thing.....almost inevitably he was scarred for life.

I believe he was coming to terms with his disability when history intervened so cruelly. I bet they would have sung songs about what he did for race relations with native Americans.

His willy is long
His coat is blue
he's the Indians pal
yahoo! Yahoo!
His name was George
How he must have felt cursed
But if his first name had been rhubarb
It might have been worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: GUEST,A Good Day to Dick.
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 12:50 PM

Damn! Damn! Damn!
Read all the way down here only to find that GUEST Jack , eventually, gave us the "make-up department's prosthesis" story, which I'd hoped to give a laugh with. According to what I heard, EF used to greet various people - actors, extras, drinking buddies - in his caravan on set, wearing just a towel round his waist as if he'd just got out of the shower, and after a while "accidentally" let the towel slip, to reveal his Little Big Horn; according to one story, Jack Warner saw the offending member and said, "Give me a few slices of that..."

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 12:13 AM

I dunno, GUEST,Jack. That snake 'n' eggs shot of Errol looks kinda doctored. The old swashbuckler isn't showing much of note in this one. Sort of looks like a Sears catalog shot. But he looks scared and maybe it's doing the "turtle" thing.

Errol shows a bit more in this picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 12:15 AM

Errol Flynn dreams.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 12:52 AM

Just had to check in to keep an eye on old Errol's Willy...

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM

Better wash that eye. No telling what you might catch.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:42 PM

Eye, Eye, Captain!