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Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction

Siskin 08 Apr 06 - 02:03 PM
JulieF 08 Apr 06 - 06:08 PM
Siskin 08 Apr 06 - 09:35 PM
Azizi 08 Apr 06 - 10:24 PM
GUEST 09 Apr 06 - 02:27 AM
Manitas_at_home 09 Apr 06 - 03:38 AM
Siskin 09 Apr 06 - 08:51 AM
Maryrrf 09 Apr 06 - 10:54 AM
Azizi 09 Apr 06 - 11:47 AM
Siskin 09 Apr 06 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,thurg 09 Apr 06 - 12:56 PM
Azizi 09 Apr 06 - 01:37 PM
Siskin 09 Apr 06 - 02:32 PM
Siskin 09 Apr 06 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,thurg 09 Apr 06 - 05:31 PM
Seamus Kennedy 09 Apr 06 - 09:07 PM
michaelr 09 Apr 06 - 10:31 PM
GUEST,Paul Burke 10 Apr 06 - 03:27 AM
Siskin 10 Apr 06 - 03:59 AM
ard mhacha 10 Apr 06 - 04:10 AM
GUEST 10 Apr 06 - 09:37 AM
GUEST 10 Apr 06 - 09:53 AM
Siskin 10 Apr 06 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Julia 10 Apr 06 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,Julia 10 Apr 06 - 10:29 AM
Seamus Kennedy 10 Apr 06 - 01:10 PM
Siskin 10 Apr 06 - 01:25 PM
Den 10 Apr 06 - 01:54 PM
Siskin 10 Apr 06 - 02:13 PM
JulieF 10 Apr 06 - 03:12 PM
michaelr 11 Apr 06 - 07:36 PM
michaelr 11 Apr 06 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,thurg 12 Apr 06 - 12:09 AM
GUEST,Julia 12 Apr 06 - 10:06 AM
Siskin 12 Apr 06 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,thurg 12 Apr 06 - 06:39 PM
Siskin 12 Apr 06 - 07:14 PM
Malcolm Douglas 12 Apr 06 - 07:22 PM
JulieF 13 Apr 06 - 04:29 AM
Den 13 Apr 06 - 08:55 AM
Siskin 13 Apr 06 - 10:10 AM
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Subject: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 02:03 PM

I have just launched a site which looks at, what many consider to be a recent phenomenon in Northern Ireland, - 'Ulster-Scots Music'. http://www.causewaymusic.co.uk/scots.irish.html

For some folks in the nine counties of Ulster, it is a form of music they can trace back to their descendants who were planted here, hundreds of years ago.

To others, it is a recent entity, simply created by politically minded Unionists to drive yet another wedge between them & their Catholic neighbours.

The site, however, tries to avoid the emotive, political quagmire & contents itself with trying to establish what the various elements of this music are, or might be, in the process, taking a look back towards Scotland & the possible origins of each, & a glance forward, towards Appalachia, where this music may well have helped shape 'Old Time' music.

As a 'blow-in' from Scotland myself, I did not create this site from a 'fountain of knowledge' standpoint, but rather as an inquisitive onlooker. I have, it is true, been actively involved in playing Scottish & Irish Music for more than 30 years now, but I would not presume for one moment to tell the folk of Ulster what they were, or were not playing.

With these thoughts in mind then, this site must be classed as nothing more than a 'work in progress', but one which will, hopefully, with sufficient input from local musicians, grow to become a valuable indication of what exactly the folk of Ulster understand this music, variously called Ulster-Scots, Scots-Irish & Scotch-Irish, to be.

If you are interested enough to take a look, I'd appreciate any 'musical' comments you may like to make, & will be happy to respond to any questions you may have, just as long as they are not politically motivated or barbed!

Just as in any good healthy Pub Session, it's best to keep Politics & Religion at bay, don't you think?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: JulieF
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 06:08 PM

You really are pushing this - third site that its up on. Interestingly - why do you use a different name on this one than the other two.   Thinking about it I use a different name on this one to the other two because I joined this one first. Nevermind. mind wandering as I have had a couple of glasses of wine and watched Shrek 2 , perfect Saturday night in.

I've had look at the site and it is quite interesting and I've also noted the debate on other sites. A few years ago the Scots-Irish section of one of the universities was very keen involved in Sheffield Irish festival and I believe they gave a lecture. I didn't go due to pressure of work.

I'ld pass the link onto a fiddler friend of mine who has spent time in Belfast and see what he thinks.

As a Scot involved in the Irish Community it is quite interesting

J


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:35 PM

Hello Julie,

Aye, it's Ptarmi OK, but someone beat me to that name here, so I had to choose another favourite wee bird's name for my Mudcat handle.

So the answer is no, I wasn't trying to hide behind a Siskin - I actually used to keep & show those tiny little birds, so I know that you can't hide much behind one!

Yes, I'm keen to get some feedback & get the beast into some sort of realistic shape.

I knew I was taken a chance, introducing it on an Irish Music Forum, especially when Northern musicians saw it, because, as you have seen already, some folks up here get very hot under the collar when they even see the words 'Ulster-Scot' or Scots-Irish.

Still, I'm only going to get the 'rounded' picture I'm looking for, of what this thing is, or isn't, if I throw it open to both sides.

Must say I've had some positive feedback at The Session, but none yet from actual northern musicans who have first hand experience 'at the coal face'.

Still, it'll be interesting to hear what your friend might think.

"As a Scot involved in the Irish Community it is quite interesting"
Yes, in many ways that could describe my situation here too, so you can perhaps see how I might be so interested myself.

Thanks J


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:24 PM

Greetings, and welcome to Mudcat!

Thanks for your invitation to visit your website. I did so as a person who has neither Scots nor Irish ancestors {at least none that I know of}. But I'm interested in learning about other cultures.

I found your website to be easy to navigate. And I appreciated your inclusion of the photos of various instruments, and the hyperlinks to sites or pages that have additional information about the subject matter.

I noted that you used the term "Lambeg" as in this sentence: "However, Ulster has the Lambeg which has developed over the years here & is totally unique to Ulster."

By the way, I can never get my hyperlinks to turn blue, but here is the link to your site:

http://www.causewaymusic.co.uk/scots.irish.html


With all due respect, what is a "Lambeg"?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:27 AM

For Scotch, anti-Irish and jealous of their tradition - youv,e come to the right place - Mudcat


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:38 AM

What's wrong with Scotch anyway? You're right about one thing, pure-bred Guest, mnay of us love Scotch.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 08:51 AM

Hello Azizi,

Aye the Lambeg is what you might call a 'Large Loud Drum'.

For more info. check out:
The Tradition of the Lambeg Drum in Ireland

Thanks for the Link Tip!

Guest, I dare say there may be a little jealousy here at Mudcat.
But I'd say it'd be just folks who are simply jealous, in a healthy way, of others greater ability to play the Traditional Music we all love & use it as a spur to improve themselves.

Oh & Just because I love playing Scottish Music doesn't mean that I am automatically anti-Irish.
That's about as crazy as saying that just because Manitas loves Scotch that he or she must then be anti Bushmills Whiskey!
Just offer him/her a glass & see what happens.............

I actually prefer Bushmills - Blackbush Whiskey, but shoot, doesn't mean that I hate Scotch Whisky!

At the end of the day I actually prefer a good cup of tea - that doesn't make me anti-coffee person though!

Speaking of drink ...........................................


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Maryrrf
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:54 AM

Hello, Dick! I'm Mary Smith, the singer from Virginia that you booked back in November 2003 at the Black Nun Folk Club. The audience was really small but we did manage to have a nice singing session!

Personally I applaud what you are doing - which is looking at the music itself rather than the political issues which have come into it. Music can be very divisive, or it can be a means of bringing people together and efforts like yours are a means towards the latter. I don't know if you are familiar with Altnaveigh House in Newry, but they have been involved in a project to bring Ulster Scots and Irish Catholics together through music. They have put together a musical theatre production called "Piping Hot" which combines Ulster Scots traditional drumming and piping with Irish dance. The show incorporates drumming, piping, music and songs from both traditions. They toured in the US last year and I put together a small web page for them at that time (outdated now, but here it is) Piping Hot .
I had an opportunity to see the show and it is very powerful and moving. Brendan Monahan, who was one of the founding members of
Different Drums of Ireland is involved in this project. Different Drums features the bodhran, pipes, and the Lambeg drum along with other percussion instruments and operates on the same principle of honoring both traditions. They have faced some resistance (I know several people that refused to see a group that featured the Lambeg drum) but overall their reception has been very positive.

Best of luck with your project! And best regards to Sabine. Is "The Black Nun" still going?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:47 AM

Siskin.

Thanks for that information on the Lambeg. It was interesting to learn [quoting from that website whose link you provided] that "The skin of a goat is the only material now used for making the heads of a lambeg drum...The choice of goat is an extremely significant part of the drum making process. Essentially it has to be a 'nanny' or 'she' goat, largely because their skin is of a much finer texture than that of a buck goat. This therefore explains why the lambeg is often considered or classified as a 'female' drum."
-snip-

FYI, various types of African drums are called male or female because of the pitch of sounds those particular drums make. The "djembe" drums from West Africa that have grown in popularity in the USA since the 1990s and other traditional African drums also use goat skins for the drum's head. For instance, here's an excerpt from a website that has photos of different African drums and other African instruments:

"The sakara is a hand-held drum made in Nigeria, West Africa. It comes in a family of four sizes, from tiny(Atele) to large (Iya-Alu). It has goatskin stretched over a rim of red clay and is played with a light stick. These drums are played all over the world in a variety of ways".

Traditional African Instruments

IMO, music makes the whole world kin.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:37 PM

Hello Mary,

Great to hear from you. Sadly the Black Nun is kind of 'sleeping' now, generally through lack of interest, but who knows what might happen in the future.

Yes I know of Altnaveigh House & their good work.
They & Different Drums have certainly been doing excellent work these past few years.

Azizi, aye of course the female goats have the softer skin.
Sure, don't we all know the female of the species has skin akin to her personality - easily manipulated! :-)

I think it'll be a long time before the Lambeg & African Drums are accepted into Trad Sessions though, but then I suppose they used to say that about Guitars & Bouzoukis didn't they, so you never know!

Suppose the trick is just to keep an open mind & see what works & what doesn't.

By the way folks, we had a Flute player from a local Flute Band join us last night at our weekly Ballad & Tunes session, near the Giants Causeway, & there was, I'm delighted to say, a certain amount of tune overlap. Plus he knew some of the songs & was able to muck in with those too. Luckily he also knew a couple of the more comical Christy Moore songs too & so he fitted right in.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:56 PM

Congratulations on an informative, attractive and easy-navigable site on a somewhat "neglected" musical culture. I never would have guessed that the dulcimer was so popular in Ulster.

I'm surprised that Azizi didn't mention the existence (formerly?) of fife-and-drum traditions in some African-American communities (asleep at the switch, Azizi?). Whether these derived more from Scotch-Irish, American military, African and/or other influences, I have no idea.

One quibble - and I'm not trying to start nothin' - but while on the one hand you humbly present your point of view as that of an observer and student (of the music), on the other hand, some of your remarks (under "What is Scots-Irish Music?") suggest a musical agenda (NOT political!) coming from a more enlightened background. You make it clear that you feel the lack of "session" playing is a major shortcoming of the Ulster musical culture, and encourage Ulster musicians to depart from their traditional ways of doing things in order to accomodate your sense of where the music should be going. Wouldn't it be more appropriate simply to observe and report what the musicians and their audiences/communities are doing?

Just some food for thought; I'm not trying to start a long involved debate because I probably won't have time to say much more on the subject, so don't feel obligated to respond. And I'm certainly not trying to be "negative"; I'm grateful to you for putting together the site and giving people like me the opportunity to learn more about "Scots-Irish" music. Again, congratulations on a good piece of work!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:37 PM

"Sure, don't we all know the female of the species has skin akin to her personality - easily manipulated! :-)"

Ha! Siskin -We all know which gender is the strongest, and if you're male and you're married, you'd better say "the female".

Thurg-I believe in leaving opportunities for others to mention the interconnectedness of African/African American cultures and other cultures worldwide. Thanks for stepping right up to the plate!

Click here for information on Black Fife and Drum Music in Mississippi


;o)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:32 PM

Hey, thanks for mentioning that African African/American culture thingy.

I checked it out & came up with a few very interesting quotes which will surely be of interest to any Fife or Flute players here:

Black Fife and Drum Music in Mississippi

"The Music of Black Americans; A History, has suggested that as early as the seventeenth century blacks may have "picked up" the skills of fife or drum playing from the militia units in New England and the Middle Colonies, since all slaves were compelled to undergo military training until the 1650's.7"
&
"The normal combination is a five-hole cane fife, a snare drum, and a bass drum, but occasionally the fife has six holes or there is a second snare drum."
&
"Another important consideration is the fact that there seems to be a tradition of fife playing among blacks without drums. In the only two instances found of this type, the instrument is called a "quill.""
&
"Numerous advertisements for slaves or notices of runaways during this century attest to their skills on a variety of instruments including drum and fife as well as the "German flute.""

Fife and drum blues

"the use of fife is merely a replacement for instruments the slaves had used in Africa."

Cascade Blues

"Fife and drum bands have their roots firmly planted in African music."

Fife and Drum Blues

"the last of the real fife and drum bands come from the North Mississippi hills and were decendents of slaves."
"Slavery brought African versions of fife and drum to America."

N.B. You might like to check out the sound clips on this page too!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:54 PM

Thurg, thanks for taking an interest in my site.

Aye your point about being totally objective. Yes it seems to be a tricky one that, but when you say I:

"encourage Ulster musicians to depart from their traditional ways of doing things in order to accomodate your sense of where the music should be going."

I don't believe I'm actually asking them to depart from anything at all really, but rather, simply suggesting that it might be something they might like to consider, i.e. also embrace another approach to preserving their own store of tunes while perhaps enriching that store at the same time.

"Wouldn't it be more appropriate simply to observe and report what the musicians and their audiences/communities are doing?"

You are probably quite correct Thurg, but in my defense I must claim that I am new to this fence sitting malarky & still haven't developed a very good sense of 'balance'.

I know - I can only get better!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:31 PM

Siskin - Very graciously handled. I'm afraid I was a little harsh in the sentence you quoted ... I do have some reservations about the whole session scene though; I think it can have more of a homogenizing than an enriching effect (I know, sounds like I'm talking about milk ... ).

Azizi - Here's a wink back at ya: !>) (I know, not too cute; I'm saving up for plastic surgery).


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:07 PM

Hey Dick!
Seamus Kennedy here!
I had a great session with you in Bushmills a few years ago when I brought a group of American tourist in. A grand night was had by all.

Keep up the good work, and best of luck with the site and the music.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:31 PM

There's been more than one thread here discussing Ulster Scots music. I've asked the elves to put links at the top of the thread.

Are you ptarmigan at The Session? And is JulieF in fact Julie Fowlis? (Name dropping is OK on this forum, you know... the secrecy on The Session is a bit silly, I think.)

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoc
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:27 AM

If you go down Belfast way
Any time on Orange Day
You'll find them all
Playing the Lambeg drum

Oy!

And of course:

Her father sails a running barge
Twixt Lambeg and the Drum...

Two locks on the Lagan navigation. Not very far apart either. What kind of traffic would have that been then?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:59 AM

Aye thurg, I hear what your saying about the homogenizing effect, & it makes me wonder what kind of music the Irish scene up here would have produced if all the ITM flute players & fiddle players & Accordion players & pipers etc had just been playing amongst themselves for the last 100 or 150 years?

I don't have an answer by the way, it's just a thought!

Wah-Hey Seamus, yes I remember your visit well, it was a grand night indeed in the Distillers Arms. Good to hear from you. That particular summer session doesn't happen any more but the Smugglers session at the other end of town has been going for about 7 years now, every Sat night, or the Springhill Bar, Portrush every Thursday with Dee Havlin or friday night in Tom's, Ballycastle.........hint hint

Michael, thanks for requesting other Ulster-Scots thread links. I'll certainly look forward to reading those.

Sorry Paul, I'm afraid I know even less about the commerce of Norn Iron than the politics.
Not sure if this link will be of much help either:

Laganside_Corporation


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoc
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:10 AM

Paul Burke the "running barges" were Lighters, actually canal barges, used to transport goods to the towns and villages along the Lagan navigation canal.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 09:37 AM

4th website this has appeared on.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 09:53 AM

seeing how this thread has become personal, will there be a Causeway Dulcimer festival this year?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:12 AM

Hello that last Guest - [10 Apr 06 - 09:53 AM]

Plan A is that there will be an informal weekend of sorts, with a few classes, a concert, a few talks & some sessions.

Once I get more details, I'll post them on the home page at:

Causeway Dulcimer Festival

Haven't had many enquiries yet though, so I don't imagine that Bushmills will be snowed under with Dulcimers this year, but you never know!

Thanks for the interest.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoc
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:24 AM

Hello Dick- Julia Lane of Castlebay here. Hoping things are going well for this years' festival!

I have been working hard for four years at a project commemorating the 1740 shipwreck of Scots-Irish emigrants here in Maine. These were headed to Philadelphia, but were rescued by Passamaquoddy and brought to an existing Scots- Irish settlement here in the midcoast.

Its is a bit complex to go into all details here, but here are some GENERAL things to think about.
Historically, these people were called "Scots-Irish" to differentaite them from the "Irish". This partly a language thing as the "Irish" seem to be those who speak Gaelic in the documentation. It is also a socio/religion thing as most of the emigrants at this time were Presbyterians. Originally Scottish from the lowlands, they spoke Scots and were generally farmers & merchants of the Scots culture. This seems to be a group who fall socially somewhere between Protestant/Anglican and Catholic. Although officially loyal to the Crown, their religion was ruled as "radical" and they had limited rights. They rented the land (did not own) and their marriages were not official, this making their children bastards and the sons unable to inherit. Their religions meetings were restricted and even outlawed.

When they finally got fed up and decided to emigrate in the early 1700's, they recieved a cold reception in New England. They were "warned out" of Boston and sent to the hinterlands of New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont and Western Mass. If you look at the map you will notice Northern Irish town names in these regions.
Ironically, one rationale used for sending them to the frontier was to be a buffer against the"wild Indians" just as they had been sent to Northern Ireland to "subdue the wild Irish" 100 years before.

There was in fact an unscrupulous emigration scheme the involved kick-backs from American landowners to ministers and ship captains that enticed people to make the move. Throughout the journey, their pockets were systematically vacuumed and many who started out as people of means arrived destitute and indentured.

Of course, they brought music and traditions with them . Much is made of the "Appalachian" connection, but New England and Maritime traditions have these same roots. Remember that the Appalachians extend to Canada! (grin)

For the presentation, I will be using music of the times which the emigrants may have heard, as well as original music and songs in the style. Although music would have been highly regulated in the church, these people enjoyed a good ceilidh as much as anyone. They also played more organized music in the drawing room after dinner. They played a mixture of "oldies: and what might have been new and fashionable. It seems to have been highly influeneced by the Scottish sound, just as the accent of the people in that region today reminds one of Galloway or Glasgow.
(Not you, Dick- you're from Edinburgh!)

As with any border region, each side influences the other culturally. The blend developes its own distinctions. To call the style Scots -Irish or Ulster-Scots is perfectly practical, just as "lemon-lime" describes a unique flavor. It honors both ingredients, while defining the new entity.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in my production, I will follow this with a couple of links

Cheers- Julia Lane


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoc
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:29 AM

Hi again here is the link to an article about the story of the shipwreck and my research
http://www.workingwaterfront.com/article.asp?storyID=20060340
Here is alink to my website
www.castlebay.net

I will send an update when it all becomes more concrete

Best- Julia


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:10 PM

As for the musical connection to the Lagan Canal, check out Tommy Makem's mock-epic The Cruise of the Calabar - one of many variants on the canal/barge comic piece.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:25 PM

Hi Julia,

Lovely to hear from you. You just never know who you are going to bump into here, do you.

Which reminds me, I still need to make a trip to the bank ....slaps own wrist!

Good luck with the presentation, it looks fascinating.

I'll post details on a couple of sites here for you & let folks know about - can't hurt.

Cheers


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Den
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:54 PM

There is also the Ulster Scots Folk Orchestra who do a song called the lambeg drum, sung by Willie Drennan.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:13 PM

Den, if you really want to hear a lambeg drum, go to the foot of this page to see a short video clip about them.

BBC - Lambeg

Incidentally, I believe 'Different Drums of Ireland' did a song on the Lambeg Drum long before the U S F O.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: JulieF
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:12 PM

Hi Michaelr

I'm not who you think i am. Just a scottish singer, marooned in Sheffield and adopted by the Irish Community here. Unknown outside the realms of south yorkshire other than a brief foray to Sligo last summer.

Sorry to disappoint
J


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 07:36 PM

No disappointment at all, at all!

:-)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 09:33 PM

Siskin, if you're still there, put "Ulster Scots" into the search box. That will bring up the previous discussions I mentioned.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 12:09 AM

"Historically, these people were called "Scots-Irish" ... "

"Historically", wouldn't they have been called "Scotch-Irish"? (Sincere question; not rhetorical).


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoc
From: GUEST,Julia
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 10:06 AM

I have found both "Scots" and "Scotch" by both American/English and Scottish /Irish writers and historians even in 18th and 19th century writings. The term "Ulster -Scot" seems to be fairly new.

best- Julia


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 12:40 PM

Hello thurg,

Check out this page:

Ulster-Scots

If I'm reading it correctly, it looks like it's saying the term 'Ulster-Scots' has been in existance for over two hundred years, but the piece doesn't actually come out & say that, it just seems to impy it, which may not be the solid answer you were looking for!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 06:39 PM

Okay, thought I'd try out this here Wikipedia thing - the entry for "Scotch" includes this helpful paragraph:

From the early 19th century Scots or Scottish were the preferred usages among educated Scottish people, Scotch being regarded as an anglicized affectation. Scotch is sometimes still used by the working classes who often regard Scots as an anglicized affectation.


Guess I stand solidly with the working classes on decidedly unsolid ground.

This Wikipedia entry didn't have anything to say about "Scotch-Irish" vs "Scots-Irish" ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 07:14 PM

There's a bunch of history of Ulster on this page, with a wee mention here & there of Scotch Irish.

Just click on "Ulster-Scots History & Culture" at:

History of Ulster

Or if you want more history on the Plantations, check this one out:

BBC - Plantations of Ulster


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 07:22 PM

Wikipedia articles should always be cross-checked against reliable, properly referenced sources. They are not always accurate, and the piece referred to above contains errors of fact, beside being worded in a misleading fashion in places.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: JulieF
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 04:29 AM

I was always taught that we Scots or Scottish and that Scotch was the drink ( or perhaps mutton pies)

J


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Den
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 08:55 AM

Siskin, I was born and bred in N. Ireland. Believe me I've heard any number of lambeg drums. I can hear them still.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Scots-Irish Music-concrete or concoction
From: Siskin
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:10 AM

Know what you mean Den - they are LOUD!


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