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BS: A Folky Strikes Back

GUEST,JTS 08 Apr 06 - 06:05 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 08 Apr 06 - 06:29 PM
katlaughing 08 Apr 06 - 06:33 PM
GUEST,JTS 08 Apr 06 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,JTS 08 Apr 06 - 09:11 PM
Once Famous 08 Apr 06 - 09:25 PM
Once Famous 08 Apr 06 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,JTS 08 Apr 06 - 10:30 PM
GUEST,JTS 08 Apr 06 - 10:36 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Apr 06 - 10:38 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Apr 06 - 10:50 PM
GUEST 08 Apr 06 - 11:04 PM
SINSULL 08 Apr 06 - 11:40 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Apr 06 - 01:08 AM
The Shambles 09 Apr 06 - 02:51 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Apr 06 - 04:32 AM
Ernest 09 Apr 06 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,Ron Davies 09 Apr 06 - 09:07 AM
CapriUni 09 Apr 06 - 09:52 AM
Bobert 09 Apr 06 - 09:59 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Apr 06 - 10:31 AM
Ernest 09 Apr 06 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,Ron Davies 09 Apr 06 - 11:22 AM
Once Famous 09 Apr 06 - 11:42 AM
SINSULL 09 Apr 06 - 12:00 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Apr 06 - 12:02 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Apr 06 - 12:06 PM
Once Famous 09 Apr 06 - 12:14 PM
Ernest 09 Apr 06 - 12:21 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Apr 06 - 12:25 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Apr 06 - 12:27 PM
Once Famous 09 Apr 06 - 12:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Apr 06 - 01:21 PM
Donuel 09 Apr 06 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,Frank 09 Apr 06 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 09 Apr 06 - 03:39 PM
Charley Noble 09 Apr 06 - 04:40 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Apr 06 - 06:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Apr 06 - 06:20 PM
The Shambles 09 Apr 06 - 06:40 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Apr 06 - 06:59 PM
Once Famous 09 Apr 06 - 07:25 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Apr 06 - 07:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Apr 06 - 08:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Apr 06 - 08:24 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Apr 06 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 09 Apr 06 - 08:33 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Apr 06 - 08:44 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Apr 06 - 08:47 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Apr 06 - 09:54 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Apr 06 - 10:08 PM
Once Famous 09 Apr 06 - 10:16 PM
Once Famous 09 Apr 06 - 10:23 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Apr 06 - 10:37 PM
Amos 09 Apr 06 - 10:45 PM
Once Famous 09 Apr 06 - 10:46 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Apr 06 - 11:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 06 - 01:45 AM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 06 - 01:52 AM
The Shambles 10 Apr 06 - 02:59 AM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 06 - 04:20 AM
mandotim 10 Apr 06 - 04:28 AM
The Shambles 10 Apr 06 - 04:38 AM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 06 - 05:03 AM
The Shambles 10 Apr 06 - 06:01 AM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 06 - 06:19 AM
Ernest 10 Apr 06 - 07:36 AM
Once Famous 10 Apr 06 - 07:57 AM
The Shambles 10 Apr 06 - 08:13 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 10 Apr 06 - 09:30 AM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 06 - 10:31 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 10 Apr 06 - 10:43 AM
Jeri 10 Apr 06 - 11:13 AM
Amos 10 Apr 06 - 01:02 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 06 - 02:31 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 06 - 02:38 PM
open mike 10 Apr 06 - 02:56 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 10 Apr 06 - 03:02 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 10 Apr 06 - 03:18 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 06 - 03:50 PM
number 6 10 Apr 06 - 03:59 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 10 Apr 06 - 04:04 PM
number 6 10 Apr 06 - 04:10 PM
heric 10 Apr 06 - 04:19 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 06 - 04:41 PM
number 6 10 Apr 06 - 04:53 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 06 - 04:56 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 10 Apr 06 - 05:02 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Apr 06 - 05:17 PM
heric 10 Apr 06 - 05:20 PM
Arne 10 Apr 06 - 05:22 PM
Once Famous 10 Apr 06 - 10:11 PM
Amos 10 Apr 06 - 10:53 PM
GUEST,Ron Davies 11 Apr 06 - 12:06 AM
Ernest 11 Apr 06 - 05:57 AM
Big Mick 11 Apr 06 - 09:33 PM

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Subject: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 06:05 PM

Folk Musician Harry Taylor give The President what for.

Yahoo Article


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Subject: RE: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 06:29 PM

He's a member of the "folk" but is he also a "folky?" Does he play or sing? Haven't heard that aspect of it. But regardless, it sure is good somebody told it to Bush straight--even though I've read he hoped somebody would--to contradict the widespread (and true) impression that the vast majority of his "public appearances" are heavily scripted and done to virtually guaranteed-friendly audiences.


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Subject: RE: A Folky Strikes Back
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 06:33 PM

Thanks for the link. I am GLAD someone had a chance and the guts to get up and say it!!


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Subject: RE: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 08:17 PM

I saw this on another forum. I think it is from the AP news wire.


CHARLOTTE, N.C. - Friday was not a normal day for Harry Taylor.

He did two national TV interviews. His phone rang all day. E-mails flooded his inbox. People he never met called him a hero and a patriot. He became a darling of Internet blogs, including one called simply: thankyouharrytaylor.org.

"It's like I've got 10,000 butterflies jumping up and down in my stomach," he said in an afternoon interview. "It's been that way for 27 hours now."

A day before, President Bush called on Taylor during a question session after a speech at Central Piedmont Community College in Charlotte. "I have never felt more ashamed of, nor more frightened, by my leadership in Washington, including the presidency," Taylor told Bush. "And I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and the grace to be ashamed of yourself."

"I'm not your favorite guy," Bush interrupted at one point, waving off boos directed at the Charlotte businessman and giving him a chance to speak.

Even Taylor lauded the president's gracious response. But his comments made waves way beyond CPCC's Halton Theatre.

His public scolding was picked up by media from around the country and as far away as South Africa. Even the official Chinese news agency reported it. The media reaction began when a flock of reporters mobbed him right after he left his seat Thursday.

"I felt like I had just hit the home run to win the World Series," he told CNN's Soledad O'Brien Friday morning. When she asked if he'd spent a lot of time thinking about what to say if given a chance, Taylor had a ready answer.

"Yes, about six years worth," he said.

Taylor, 61, is a slender, soft-spoken man with a mop of wavy salt-and-pepper hair. He runs a commercial real estate business out of a one-room office. It's an unpretentious setting, lined with architectural drawings and renderings and a Charlie Chaplin wall clock.

A divorced New Jersey native, he has lived in Charlotte for almost 20 years. He's president of the Charlotte Folk Society and has spent more time playing the banjo and mandolin than in political activism.

He's an unaffiliated voter and says he hasn't belonged to a political party for three decades. His political involvement began a few years ago through his membership in the Sierra Club, and he has spoken out about environmental and other issues.

It was through his membership in the Charlotte World Affairs Council that he scored an invitation to the president's appearance. A few minutes with a microphone brought an avalanche of response. He said he has gotten calls from servicemen and their families, almost all positive. E-mails to the Charlotte Observer ran 4-1 in support, though reactions were mixed on charlotte.com.

"He wasn't a raging liberal just spewing out accusations," said Stephen Demetriou, a commercial photographer from Maine who read about Taylor on a blog. "There's a lot of people who share his views."

Critics, however, called Taylor rude, embarrassing and misguided.

"I thought it was very out of place," said Dean Davidson, a real estate broker from Waxhaw, N.C. "I could hear the pacifism in his voice. To me it's just the same old, same old you hear every day; criticism of the administration's policies but never a new idea."

Other critics posted comments on the Observer's Web site.

"Mr. Harry Taylor made a fool of himself with that retarded speech he made in front of the world," one poster wrote. "Taylor and Cindy Sheenan would make a great couple."

Taylor isn't worried about the exchange hurting his business. And Theresa Salmen, executive vice president of the Charlotte Region Commercial Board of Realtors, said developers she met with Friday morning didn't seem to mind.

"They were really impressed with how Bush handled it, as well as the way Harry had handled his questions," she said. "Everybody has a right to their opinions."

On Friday, Taylor juggled all the phone calls and e-mails with a business meeting and plans for a Friday night Folk Society concert at Central Piedmont, not far from where he confronted the president.

So much has happened to Taylor since Thursday he isn't sure what to expect next. "I didn't set out to change my life," he said. "But I'm really passionate about humanity and fairness. We only come around this way once."

When things settle down, he plans to write Bush a letter.

"I just want to tell him, `Thank you for listening to me and quieting 900 people down so I could talk,'" he said. "And remind him that civil discourse is critical to the successful operation of a communal society."


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Subject: RE: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:11 PM

Hooray For Harry!!


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Subject: RE: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:25 PM

This belongs in BS.


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Subject: RE: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 09:33 PM

15 mminutes of fame from a very ungreatful American is all this crap is. His phone is not wiretapped, he is free to believe and do whatever he wants.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:30 PM

I agree on one thing

"15 mminutes of fame from a very ungreatful American is all this crap is. His phone is not wiretapped, he is free to believe and do whatever he wants. "

The above belongs in B.S.


Ungrateful to G. W. Bush. LOL!!

What a jackass!


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:36 PM

Joe and Joeclones

Is the squeeky wheel being oiled?

Please remove this thread. If it is B.S. and not a story about a folk musician, I don't want to be responsible for having started it.

Thanks.
    To me, it's six on one and half-a-dozen on the other, but I certainly can see how this thread could be viewed as more political than musical. I see no need to countermand the volunteer's moving of this thread to the non-music section, and I certainly wouldn't delete the thread.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:38 PM

That was me.

Please Delete.

Thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 10:50 PM

Harry never said that his phone was tapped, but he did say that his president has decided that he has the right to tap phones.

Sorry Martin, but I think is a very grateful American because he had the opportunity to stand up and say what he felt.

Usually these meetings are puff pieces and the questions and speakers are chosen before hand. Either Harry went off script or, what I hope is the truth - Bush's handlers are letting him see the truth. I honestly feel that Bush has not been given the pulse of this country in the past.

I love this country and I love the opportunites it offers. So does Harry.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:04 PM

"To me it's just the same old, same old you hear every day; criticism of the administration's policies but never a new idea." -from GUEST, JTS's cut 'n' paste.

Here's a new idea for you, Dean: No government intrusion into the lives of its private citizens. And easy to implement, too. Just stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 11:40 PM

It took a lot of guts to risk his business in order to say what was on his mind. A brave man. What was bush's answer other than "I'm not your favorite guy"??


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:08 AM

Mocking laughter.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:51 AM

House Concerts a Federal Case


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:32 AM

How unpopular would you say Bush is at the moment? Is it mainly because of the war, if he is unpopular? Is he generally liked?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Ernest
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 07:31 AM

Sinsull, I disagree. The USA are a democracy. Criticizing the president is neither riskier for one`s business nor braver than playing the banjo in public.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:07 AM

Great for Harry--"Give 'em hell, Harry"--both for what he said, and that he is a folkie.

And as far as Bush's popularity--it seems, based on polls (which are of course, just a snapshot), that Bush would lose an election now, depending, of course , on who his opponent was. There's a huge list of gripes people have against him, starting with the Iraq war, which, it's more evident every day, he suckered the US public into supporting by his regime's despicable propaganda campaign. The fact of this campaign is something nobody, here or anywhere else--has ever come up with any facts to refute. He may not have outright lied at the time--just presented only the select evidence which seemed to many to justify the war. But his statement recently that he did not intend to go to war against Iraq is, it's painfully obvious, a blatant lie--and voters recognize that and don't like it.

And of course, the Iraq war is now in the process of blowing up in his face. Nobody is happy that Iraq is descending into civil war--but it shows the incredible lack of competence the Bush regime has in doing anything but destruction that there was virtually no plan for anything but toppling Saddam.

That's only the first item-- in a list that includes the federal government's bungled response to Katrina, the culture of corruption which has flourished under Bush, and the out-of-control spending he has made no attempt to curtail--has not vetoed one spending bill.

Even in areas where I believe his stance is at least close to the right one--the Dubai ports flap and the current illegal immigrant issue--there are enough voters in his own base who are annoyed with him that they might well not come out to support him if a presidential election were held today--always, of course, depending on who his opponent might be. That's his main problem--that his own base is turned off.

Obviously, speculating on "if the election were held today" is still a pointless exercise--since a person's opponent will always determine the extent to which his own base will support him.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: CapriUni
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:52 AM

The presidential election isn't until November of '08, but there's a congressional election this year, and the midterm elections are generally seen as a vote of confidence on the government in general.

Unfortunately, the Democrats don't seem at all interested in coming up with a plan of their own; there strategy seems to be limited to "Give them enough rope..." But it'll be interesting to see how the Congress looks next year.

Oh, according to a report on the news, Bush's aproval rating was down to 36%, which is down into the "historically low" range.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:59 AM

Well, it really wouldn't matter much if the Dems had a plan because congressional races have, through jerrymandering, become noncompetetive... That in itself should be a 'cause for new American revolution since democracy has pretty much been short circuited by the Repubocratic Party....

Vote Green...

But, way to go Harry!!! You done real good, ol' son...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:31 AM

"Criticizing the president is neither riskier for one`s business nor braver than playing the banjo in public."

I am not sure if you meant that as sarcasm or if you honestly believe it isn't risky for business to take such a stand.   You would be very naive to think that this act was not a risk to his business.   People do not like controversy and they will take their business elsewhere.   Democracy has nothing to do with boycotts, in fact it is the spirit of democracy that encourages such actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Ernest
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:47 AM

Ron, with Bush`s popularity sinking to a historically low 36 % as CapriUni reported, it doen`t seem to be a risk (it might even improve his business).

Besides, if the man is living in the place for 20 years people should know his political preferences anyway. None of the articles indicated that he had been afraid telling his opinions before.

Or do you feel heroic when you are giving political statements here? And have you lost listeners because you did?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:22 AM

Ernest--unless you have made controversial statements while running a business dependent to some extent on public goodwill, you should think before pontificating. Many at the "town meeting" Harry spoke out at booed Harry for what he said. If any of them would need Harry's services, now that they've heard him, they very likely will go elsewhere--potential lost business for Harry--he runs a commercial real estate business, and businessmen might well be conservative--and support Bush. Remember this is North Carolina we're talking about here, not Connnecticut--where attitudes are different.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:42 AM

One thing some critics do not understand is that the popularity contest is long over. It is irrelevant. Bush will not be impeached.

Running the country is the matter at hand as he was elected to do.

The on-going sour grapes that Bush did win is nothing but decisive and self-serving.

Find a better candidate next time. As for Harry, he had every right to say what he wanted to the President's face. And the President, who also believes in his reasoning has every right to tell Harry he is wrong or to just ignore him.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:00 PM

Ernest,
Sorry, but I have seen businesses suffer for taking a stand on politics, religion, gay rights, abortion. I boycott products produced by companies that are trying to overturn Roe v. Wade - Sally Hanson Nail Products, for one. I also avoid buying cosmetics that are produced by companies that still test on live animals.

If his business were not an issue, why was it brought up at a meeting of the local Real Estate Board the following Friday?
"Taylor isn't worried about the exchange hurting his business. And Theresa Salmen, executive vice president of the Charlotte Region Commercial Board of Realtors, said developers she met with Friday morning didn't seem to mind."

Just as Taylor has a right to speak, his customers and business associates have a right to disagree with his speech and make it known by boycotting his services. He is, I reiterate, a brave man.

Mary


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:02 PM

I do agree with you Martin. However, I do think that it is more than a "popularity" contest.

The fathers of our country, who would have either been deemed radicals from the far left or conservative businessmen looking after their own interests, voiced their opinions - loudly. We would not be here today if it wasn't for that.

What we are seeing today is more than sour grapes and it is not self-serving. The Rush Limbaugh's of the world will be quick to dismiss and label dissent as something morally wrong, but that is their defense mechanism. They may not agree with the opinion, but all the claptrap in the world can't silence it. ALL opinion is healthy and needed to maintain the check and balances that this democracy was built on.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:06 PM

Ernest, I have been called many things by many listeners for the songs that I play. I may have lost listeners, I may have gained some. That isn't the point nor the goal.

I am not sure what you are getting at about "feeling heroic". I don't think that is what Harry Taylor was doing, nor is it what I do - or the musicians that I play (it is their forum, not mine). Most people who express their opinions aren't trying to be heros nor are they trying to make personal gains.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:14 PM

Ron, I don't think anyone is trying to stop anyone from opinions, but the easiest way to not make opposing issues opinions is to simply dismiss them and ignore them. In other words, "say what you want, and if choose to ignore you, that's the way it is."

It may be a defense mechanism, true. But if it works for the defender, then it is effective.

ron, there is no clear cut way to measure opposing opinions for personal agendas.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Ernest
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:21 PM

Ron, please don`t accuse me of writing without thinking.

The fact that the people in the audience booed Mr. Taylor doesn`t mean that much. There might have been a majority of Bush`s supporters at the meeting, but this seems quite normal to me. So what?

The article JtS quoted that he had been politicly active for a while - so the people of his town would have known his political preferences already. It also said that the reactions the local newspaper received were in a majority of 4:1 supporting Mr. Taylor. It also said that the developers (his potential business partners) didn`t seem to mind and Mr. Taylor himself is not worrying about his business - and he should know it better than we do from afar.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:25 PM

Good points Martin, but I think we chose to ignore opposing issues that the Mudcat boards would be empty!! :)

In a previous job, I worked for a company that was led by Roger Ailes, now the the head honcho at Fox News and the man who played a large role in getting Richard Nixon and George Bush Sr. elected president.   While we are on the opposite sides of the policial spectrum, he once said something that had a profound - and positive - influence on me.   In a meeting where we were discussing some personnel issues, Roger said something to the effect that "all people can and should have personnel agendas. There is nothing wrong with that. When their agenda runs counter to the agenda and goals of the company they work for, then there is a problem". It is very true. Without personal agendas, we become in effect slaves.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:27 PM

"Ron, please don`t accuse me of writing without thinking."

I did not have to accuse you of anything.   I also did not make any assumptions in my comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:32 PM

Ron, maybe the Mudcat boards should be empty of stuff like this. I certainly would not care in the slightest, as it has what I like to use as a favorite expression of mine here: zero impact.

Harry Taylor's story had zero impact also, except for a few moments.

Corporate America is hurting this country much more than the government is. That to me seems more dangerous as we can't elect those people in charge.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:21 PM

I can't see why this shouldn't be up in the music end of the forum. Here's a link to the Charlotte Folk Society, which sounds pretty healthy. "Dedicated to promoting the ongoing enjoyment and preservation of traditional and contemporary folk music, dance, crafts and lore in the Southern Piedmont, since 1982.

Sound like good people. Any Mudcatters belong to it?

The strange thing is that it should actually seen as out-of-line for people in a democracy to talk to their leaders this way, in a forceful and critical manner, but staying within the bounds of courteousy. I mean, Harry Taylor, as a citizen of the USA, is one of Bush's employers.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 01:36 PM

http://www.fortunecity.com/millenium/pizza/179/flying.gif

bless his little heart


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 02:59 PM

"A divorced New Jersey native, he has lived in Charlotte for almost 20 years. He's president of the Charlotte Folk Society and has spent more time playing the banjo and mandolin than in political activism."

Sounds like it's time for The Ballad of Harry Taylor. Way to Go!!!

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 03:39 PM

"Martin"--

"Corporate America is hurting this country more than the government is."

STOP THE PRESSES!!!!!

"Martin" has realized the US isn't perfect!!!!!!!!!

Judgment Day is here!!!!!!!

Pigs are flying all over the place!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:40 PM

Maybe we should compose an appropriate commemorative ditty, in the spirit of Malvina Reynolds. Harry's courage certainly deserves recognition. Speaking directly to that horse's ass takes a lot of courage. Much more courage than posting personal abuse in a Mudcat thread (as above), which I wish some Joe Clone would delete.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:16 PM

"I can't see why this shouldn't be up in the music end of the forum. Here's a link to the Charlotte Folk Society, which sounds pretty healthy. "Dedicated to promoting the ongoing enjoyment and preservation of traditional and contemporary folk music, dance, crafts and lore in the Southern Piedmont, since 1982. "

McGrath of Harlow, here is the deal. If not for Martin Gibson whining and the response to it, this is a very reasonable intelligent discussion about the actions of a folk singer. As it is, it is such a thread with a bit partisan bickering on Anonymous Martin's part answered by reason and pity by everone but me who couldn't help calling a jackass a jackass. The right thing to do would be to delete Martin's posts and the response to them and put the tread back where it belongs. Either that or we let the Troll run the forum.

In the interest of playing to Joe Offer's sense of fairness, Would all of those who replied to Martin's baiting and abuse please consent to having their replies deleted?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:20 PM

Charley,

Looking at the whole thread, its pretty obvious that Martin was building and baiting to that personal abuse. Also the nonsense about ignoring critics, while criticizing them while saying he doesn't care about them, is another form of ugly Martin Gibson thread pollution. It would be nice to have a reasonable conversation without some illiterate jackass picking a fight.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:40 PM

Just because someone might picking a fight no one is being forced to fight back by responding in kind - when they can always just carrying on posting and ignore any abuse.

If you do respond in kind - don't you rather lose the right to sit in judgement of others and risk further cluttering-up our forum with yet more abuse?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:59 PM

"In the interest of playing to Joe Offer's sense of fairness, Would all of those who replied to Martin's baiting and abuse please consent to having their replies deleted?"

That is stupid.

Martin did not "bait" anyone in this thread. He gave his opinion and shared his opinion just like Harry Taylor did. Both were equally colorful and to the point. Why is it right to allow one person to speak their mind and not the other?   That isn't my version of this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 07:25 PM

Thank you Ron, for your usual voice of reason.

Jack's version of America is the usual whining when someone doesn't agree. Someone who is closer to the mainstream of things like myself and can tell the difference between radical liberalism, hippie politics, and real people in this country.

Deleting anything here would be completly wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 07:44 PM

I'm not sure if we truly have a "mainstream" anymore.   If we are to use the last presidential electio as a barometer - Bush won by about 2%. Yet 59 million Americans disageed. If I am part of a minority that is out of the mainstream, I have a hell of a lot of company. I'm not whining or complaining, what happened is in the past.

"Radical liberalism" is a misnomer. There are a lot of people here on Mudcat that feel that they deserve that honor of distinction, but in reality they fall far from it.   I applaud Harry Taylor for speaking his mind, I agree with what he said.   Martin, I applaud you for speaking your mind, and while I do not agree with some of your views, I will fight for your right to speak it. Liberalism is a two-way street and no one should ever attempt to shut someone out for speaking their mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 08:08 PM

59 million Americans disagreed

That isn't counting the ones who didn't vote for anybody. In fact, only a minority of Americans ever voted for Bush. Even the second time round, when he wasn't actually outvoted by his opponent.

I agree with Ron about people speaking their mind. More especially when they do it in a way that respects others.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 08:24 PM

"Martin did not "bait" anyone in this thread. He gave his opinion and shared his opinion just like Harry Taylor did."

Ron O....

I guess if you ignore his whole posting history and forgrt the fact that he escalated things to the point that he told someone to "f" off, you may have a point.

That jackass has told us dozens of times that he doesn't have any opinions that he cares about, he about said that on this thread and that he just comes here to provoke. The right to free speech does not mean we have to put up with those who simply want to insult, antagonize and provoke.

By the way, thanks for calling my words stupid.

"That is stupid."

How about we split the thread in two? One part for those who want to rationally discuss what Harry did and another for those who want to entertain Martin the Troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 08:30 PM

Martin Gibson...

"Oh, ron just fuck off. I didn't say they were hurting a whole lot. They are doing what they need to do to to survive, also.

So don't have a Commie coronary or something like that. "

Martin Gibson...

"Thank you Ron, for your usual voice of reason."



So this is a person who is just expressing his opinion and not trying to provoke. Come on Ron, wake up.

I just wish that next time you want to have a pissing contest with the fictional Martin Gibson, you start your own thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 08:33 PM

I'm just relieved--for a minute there I thought "Martin" was starting to think clearly.

And c'mon--let's not have Round 897 of "Censorship on Mudcat"--we've all heard every bon mot "Martin" comes up with--it only reflects on him. I think we can live with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 08:44 PM

No lets appease and humour him.

I'm a little pissed because this thread got moved BECAUSE MARTIN GIBSON SAID SO. WHEN MARTIN GIBSON SAID SO.

Why should I worry about not feeding the trolls when the Joeclones do it for me.

I left out a lot of things I could have said because I wanted to say I was proud of a fellow folk musician. I'm not so much proud of what he said. Hell 64% of the country feels the same way, in spite of what a certain "person" might say about the main stream. Of course those of us with memories know he only said that to provoke. I'm proud that he said what he said with grace and humility and he did it at least in part, as a folk musician.

But Martin Gibson had to come piss over this thread with the tacit approval of the moderators of this board. Its a travisty. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be pushed around by bullying disgiused as "expressing opinion".


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 08:47 PM

"By the way, thanks for calling my words stupid. "

Your welcome. I thought I should point it out to you before someone else did.

"So this is a person who is just expressing his opinion and not trying to provoke. Come on Ron, wake up."

And you did differently Jack?

This is why we are so screwed up. Jack, you and I actually agree on what Harry Taylor did. Yet you have chosen to pick a fight with me now because I pointed out something you did not wish to see.

Of coures Martin has a history with his posts. So do a lot of Mudcatters. If you really look at how this thread progressed Jack, YOU were the first one to call someone a name. Martin stated his colorful opinion without directing it at anyone here on Mudcat. Yet instead of ignoring it, dismissing it or fighting back with any reason, you attack the source. That is EXACTLY the SAME tactics that Rush Limbaugh and all the rest of the conservative media uses, and we throw up our hands in disgust. Yet we can act the same way. Why is that?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:54 PM

"Yet you have chosen to pick a fight with me now because I pointed out something you did not wish to see."


I chose to pick a fight with you? LOL

What did I say to you before you called me stupid? You call me stupid and I'm picking a fight with you? Is that what you call exercising your free speech?



Yeah I called him a jackass BECAUSE HE WAS BEING A JACKASS. Provoking with the help of the cowardly joeclone. But actually I was angry with the coward, who still remains nameless, who gave into Martin Gibson's bullying and moved the thread.

Gibson, tells you to "fuck off" and you defend his words as free speech and call me stupid. There is some irony in there somewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:08 PM

You sound really paranoid.

I did not call YOU stupid in my first remark. It is not a smart idea to start having posts deleted just because YOU feel that they do not belong. THAT is a stupid idea. You started attacking me because I disagreed with the spirit of your suggestion.

Gibson did not tell ME to fuck off. Read the threads closely.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:16 PM

Jack Limbaugh.

LOL!!


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:23 PM

And for the record, I agree that this Harry guy had the right to speak outas he did.

And I support the President to ignore him, because he is definately not privy to the security of this country.

and I think calling for the removal of dissenting opinions like Jack and Davies want their little Mudcat to be shows how out of touch they are.

Ron, there is a mainstream still in this country. Ever been to Iowa, Nebraska, Indiana, rural Illinois, etc? There are plenty of people out there with a lot of common sense. The battle is to still have more people who do than more people who don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:37 PM

Paranoid eh? LOL

I just got a PM from the "persona" Martin Gibson



" From Title Date Archive Delete
Martin Gibson fictional 9 Apr 2006 10:14 PM   
   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message:
Jack Off,

I am not that fictional. Some people really know who I am. You see them agreeing with and supporting me here all of the time.

They will protect my identity while I just keep telling pricks like you to eat shit and die. "

This is Martin Gibson's idea of Free Speech. This is what he has often said he comes here to do. Do you remember when Martin said her was leaving and wouldn't come back. Of course no one expected him to tell the truth. That would be unprecedented.

Defend him if you want Olesko. That just means the two of you are acting like jackasses. Please note that I said "acting like" instead of just saying you are a jackass. I don't want to step over the fine line you have drawn between calling someone stupid and saying what they say is stupid.

"Gibson did not tell ME to fuck off. Read the threads closely."

So you're defending his right to tell someone else to fuck off. I guess that proves it. You are a jackass. Oops.... :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:45 PM

--
"The people who still support George Bush are the same people who
believe Adam and Eve rode to church on the backs of dinosaurs". - SNL


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 10:46 PM

Did send him a PM? I don't recall doing that.

I think this guy Jack the Sailor is dillusional.

And I always thought that PMs were a personal type of communication here. Something that you wanted to keep off the forum.

I would think that breach of trust shows a particular paranoia and breach of Mudcat trust.

Personally, I would think no one could trust Jack the Sailor for much here. But if I really did PM, he sure is carrying on like a big baby now about it, don't you all think?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 11:08 PM

Okay Jack, now you are getting silly. The same tactics that you used on Martin you are using on me. You can't argue the points I made so you try to discredit me. A typical tactic, but it doesn't work.   You've turned this from a discussion about a legitimate concern - free speech and the president, into a schoolyard brawl. It isn't worth it.

Read the posts again, carefully. Martin did not start calling anyone names. The goading that you allude to appears to have been directed at him. Perhaps it was a "first strike" based on past history?   Perhaps. I guess that is Bush did with Sadam too and attempted to convince the nation that it was just.

It boils down to a hypocritical double standard. While we applaud Harry Taylor, we attack those that disagree with us or people we simply don't like. We take offense at someone using works like "fuck off" and "stupid", yet we feel comfortable with using works like "jackass".   We can call Bush's ideas stupid, but when someone calls one of our ideas stupid we take offense and become defensive. It is a double standard, and we do not follow the pattern that we expect others to live up to.   Perhaps when more of us admit it, then change will take place.   A thicker skin, some more understanding, and perhaps we will have a better world.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:45 AM

No Ron, I'm just calling you a jackass because you are acting like a jackass.

What point were you making? That you believe that I am stupid? There is point for me to address. Ron, the point that I am making is that Martin Provokes and does almost nothing else. The only tactic I have used is to point that out.

The only suggestion I have for you is to stop acting like a jackass.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:52 AM

Is that what PM's are for Martin?

Is that what they are for Joe?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:59 AM

If you want to judge and call your fellow members names - PMs are a way of doing this which does not inflict this name-calling upon everyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:20 AM

Shambles that was very, very funny. I'm sure that was just what the fictional persona called Marting Gibson had in mind :-p


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: mandotim
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:28 AM

I've been lurking on this thread, but felt it was time to join in, not in the pissing contest, but to voice a fear; In the quotes about the response to our folkie friend was this one;
Cut n'Paste;
'I thought it was very out of place," said Dean Davidson, a real estate broker from Waxhaw, N.C. "I could hear the pacifism in his voice. To me it's just the same old, same old you hear every day; criticism of the administration's policies but never a new idea."'

'Could hear the pacifism in his voice'????? When 'pacifism' is used as an implied term of abuse, and is apparently unchallenged, we need to be afraid. Very afraid.
Tim from Bit on the Side


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:38 AM

Shambles that was very, very funny. I'm sure that was just what the fictional persona called Marting Gibson had in mind :-p

If it was - you rather scuppered that by publicly posting his personal message. The convention is that these are to be kept private which is why they are called personal messages.

Our forum will only show what we the posters choose to post. We only have any control of what we choose to post or what we choose not to.

So if we choose not to post abuse and choose not to respond publicly to any that is posted - there is no need for anyone to be asked to delete anything - for there will not be anything to delete. The responsibility is ours, it always has been and it really is that simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:03 AM

Thanks for the lecture, I'll keep that in mind. I'd like to point out that ignoring and appeasing Martin have both been tried and that neither met with any success. I don't consider what Martin did personal or private. Just a continuation of his mission to provoke. I think lights should be shone on cockroaches. It make them scurry away. That's why I posted it.

If Martin wants to use PM's for personal messages, well and good. But If I have to read the abuse. You'll get a chance to read it to.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 06:01 AM

Thank you.

If you judge a post or a poster to be a 'troll' - Would you not also judge it rather foolish to respond in kind or indeed to respond in any way at all?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 06:19 AM

we're not talking about an ordinary troll. we're talking about a psycho on a mission.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Ernest
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 07:36 AM

Ron, I agree with what you said in the last paragraph of your post of 9th Apr. 06, 11:08.

This goes in the direction my remarks were aimed at: we should put the incident about Harry Tailor in a broader context. There are people who really risk something by expressing their political opinions. Organisations like Amnesty International could provide us with their names.

The experiences Harry Tailor makes are those that are quite normal in a democratic discourse.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 07:57 AM

What mission, Jack?

To make you look as foolish as you really are?

That's been easy the last 24 hours. Your credibility is lower than whale shit when it comes to Mudcat ethics.

Sailors have much thicker skin, Jack. You turned this thread into an evil personal vendetta toward me.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 08:13 AM

When 'pacifism' is used as an implied term of abuse, and is apparently unchallenged, we need to be afraid. Very afraid.

Sadly that is very true. It is also the case when to express concern about censorship is seen to be a questionable thing to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 09:30 AM

Jack, you seem to have taken this personally. Anyone who reads the threads of this topic can see how you have taken this off on a tangent and you have come to symbolize everything you have complained about. You have instigated, provoked, resorted to name calling, and brought this down to a pissing contest. The one issue that seems to have set you off was my calling your idea "stupid". I stand by that. I did not call you stupid. I do not know you well enough to say that, but your idea for having posts and threads deleted was stupid. If there is anyone alive who has not come up with a stupid idea once or twice in their life, I would like to shake their hand. You are no exception.

I apologize to the rest of the Mudcat community for falling victim to your tactics and engaging in this sort of crap.

Ernest, I do see your point now. Jack Taylor may have put his business at risk, but in the large scale you are right. I don't think he has to worry about losing everything and any "risk" he may have taken is surely managable.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:31 AM

Ron,

I saw a pretty good thread ruined by moving it to BS and turned into another bicker fest with Martin Gibson. It seems to me that it was moved because Martin Gibson asked it to be moved. It wasn't particularly political or divisive until Martin said a bunch of idiotic things to provoke people. Lord knows he provoked me. I was pissed, that he was back and a little scared because he wasn't being reigned in. It was stupid of me to answer his stupid provocation about " very ungreatful(sic) American" But I have good reason be angry with Martin Gibson, and I have good not to trust him or his motives. If you don't know those reasons perhaps someone can fill you in, but a lot of folks were pretty disgusted and told me I should fight him (on this forum). I did for a while, but the moderators stepped in and controlled him. I was grateful. Then he left, said he wouldn't be back. Now he's back. Now he's back, acting cranky and picking fights. I thought that he was to be kept on a tight leash. But he's getting his bickering in and his snide remarks, and the scatted "fuck off" And now he is using Personal Message to hurl his abuse and apparently, I'm not supposed to say anything because "Private Messages" are "supposed to be private". I'm pretty disappointed with the moderators right now. I'm pretty disappointed with the Mudcat "Community" that seems to be telling me that I have to silently take abuse in "Private Messages". I hope I am wrong. I hope that Martin the monster isn't lurking and ready to pounce on their weakness. I will tell you. While he is lurking, I won't be starting any more threads for him to turn into bickerfests.

Ron Olesko I have no patience with Martin and I've been known to be short with those who defend him. If you are not defending him. If you are innocent of the history, I owe you an apology. I'm sorry.

On the subject of tactics however, a slight point of order.

If you want to communicate with someone, if you want them to be receptive, you don't start the conversation by saying what they said is stupid. I think you know that and I think you knew that before you wrote what you did. You drew a line in the sand for me and shame on me , I step across. Shame on me. Shame on us both.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:43 AM

I think it is in everyones best interest to just move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 11:13 AM

I applaud Mr Taylor's courage in standing up. I think there are too many people who are afraid of being ridiculed and labeled as unpatriotic - as if love of one's country and its ideals, and belief in the constitution - was EVER about blindly supporting one person or group of people.

What's remarkable about this is that a '61-year old Charlotte real estate broker' made the news, as if this was a very surprising thing to happen. I admit that his statement was very concise and powerful, and maybe that's why he made the news.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:02 PM

And in view of the fact that this man is a banjo player and a stout supporter of his local folk community, there is no reason for this thread to be below the line except for the discoloration introduced into it by Martin's unusual state of mind.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:31 PM

The Washington Post seems to think that Bush's people orchestrated the media opportunity and gave Taylor a chance to speak so that Bush could "show that he can take criticism" to bolster his sagging poll numbers. Certianly its no secret who Taylor is. I'm glad they chose a folkie. I'm sure they did so because they thought that folkies were wild eyed fanatical, protest loving, simple minded, idealists; easy prey for the famous Bush "humor". Well I'm glad they made the mistake of chosing Harry of all the Folkies out there and I'm glad that Harry was so articulate, so calm and so gracious. When Bush, did laugh at him. When Bush interupted to make a snide banal, unfunny and off topic comment. Bush looked like a simpering, smirking fool. Harry let the little emperor show us the true lack of substance in his new clothes.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:38 PM

A banjo player, a mando player, president of the Charlotte Folk society and a judge in a contest for a scholarships for young folk musicians.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: open mike
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:56 PM

There may be an upswing of business for the Harry Taylor Real Estate Agency Some may choose to buy or sell property thru his business as a vote of confidence in his integrity! (who is Jack Tailor?)


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:02 PM

Open mike, that was my typo - it is Harry Taylor.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:18 PM

One thing that struck me about Harry Taylor was the way he said his piece. For the first time in a long time, I also give Bush some credit for his handling of the situation. Bush could have let the audience drown this guy out, but instead he quieted them down and let Harry say his piece. If you watch the video, as opposed to reading the posts, you can see the grace with which he delivered his message. While Bush dodged the bulk of Taylors message in his response, Taylor at least started a dialogue among the rest of the nation.

Also, Taylor's folkie background was not the reason he was chosen apparently.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:50 PM

"I also give Bush some credit for his handling of the situation."

I wonder if you have thought this though entirely? Bush knew Harry was going to speak and knew it was going to be negative. Bush chose to laugh at him. It would have been pointless to have him speak to "show that Bush could handle criticism" if no one could hear the criticism. And Bush chose to laugh at the man   So are you giving him credit for carrying out his cynical plan even though he made a lame joke and laughed at the man he invited to speak? A lot of people might think the Pres was rude to interrupt. Most would think he was rude to laugh at the man.


"Also, Taylor's folkie background was not the reason he was chosen apparently."

Would you care to explain what you meant in the above sentence; exactly what was apparent and how it was apparent? If you are going to argue with me after your talk of moving on, at least try to be coherent. It will help me to answer you point if I know what point you are trying to make.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: number 6
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:59 PM

Having seen this incident on the nitely news (CNN) last week I was not impressed with Harry ... I thought he could have been more assertive in his dictation, I think he should have also picked another issue with Bush, rather than the phone tapping business, that issue leaves too much open space for Bush to dance around, wich I felt he did ... the Iraq mess would have been better (in my opinion). Less room for a Bush reply.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:04 PM

"So are you giving him credit for carrying out his cynical plan even though he made a lame joke and laughed at the man he invited to speak? A lot of people might think the Pres was rude to interrupt. Most would think he was rude to laugh at the man."

As I said in my previous comment, I gave Bush credit for quieting the audience down and letting Taylor finish. Taylor could have been drowned out in a sea of boos.   You may characterize it as Bush having laughed at the man, but what I saw was an uncomfortable president trying to make light of the situation and he still allowed Taylor to speak his piece.

We also have no proof that it was a "cynical plan". I know they usually choreograph these events, so I would not be surprised.

"exactly what was apparent and how it was apparent?"
Do a search and read some of the news stories. He was chosen because he is a member of the Charlotte World Affairs Council, which is a non-profit, non-partisan organization. The folk connection did not enter in to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: number 6
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:10 PM

I agree with you that Bush did handle the situation quite well ... for a moment I did think he was acting rude, but he let the man speak. I also expected Bush was expecting a hard hit question ... the subject and the manner of Harry left a lot of room for comfort and manueverablity bor George.

It was certainly not "give 'em hell Harry"

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: heric
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:19 PM

"And I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and the grace to be ashamed of yourself."

I didn't see the video. But this was a snide rhetorical question --i.e. not a question at all, and therefore not requesting or requiring a response of any kind. If this was his best, I can believe that he was selected to make the President look good.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:41 PM

"he is a member of the Charlotte World Affairs Council,"

I know, but he isn't the only member. I'll bet a lot that most of their membership tried to get in that room. I'll bet a lot of them wanted to speak. Is it really so apparant why that one man was chosen?

"but what I saw was an uncomfortable president trying to make light of the situation and he still allowed Taylor to speak his piece."

Trying to make light of a sitation of his own making? Does that really make sense? Since he was ready for him, why not show some real grace and seriously let the man speak?


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: number 6
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:53 PM

Jack ... He did let the man speak.

There was a bit of an nervous, uncomfortable momentfor Bush in the beginning of the man's question ... but it was no different on how Bush reacts to any reporter's question ... Bush quickly, got composure and did listen, and did reply without anger or humiliation.

Nothing was shocking about this whole affair, either from Bush (who was himself Bush) and some non-shocking question soft deleivered question from some guy in the audience.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:56 PM

"I can believe that he was selected to make the President look good."

I certainly believe that Heric. What I've been trying to say is that the President expected to look better than he did. I think he was hoping for one of those screaming "Liberals" that Limbaugh is always warning Bush's "base" about. Harry was cutting and a little snide, He epresses a lot of genuine anger and resentment without losing his cool; but still his comment was not nearly as snide as Bush's, But Harry remain calm, polite and unmocking throughout and he didn't interupt to make a joke. Again, more than Bush could manage.

I hear y'all when you say he should have done this or that or talked about the war or whatever. But I think, no matter what he said Bush would have had a different meaningless reply. On the war for instance, he's had three years to practice his spin. Harry did fine. As good as anyone could do. Did I mention that he is a folkie? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:02 PM

"Is it really so apparant why that one man was chosen?"

No it isn't, but it makes it harder to believe that his folk connection had anything to do with it. The event was sponsored by the council, he is a member, he was in attendance.   How he was chosen after that becomes harder to determine. I sincerely doubt that they went so far to find someone from a folk society who was also a member. Fate is more likely the reason he received the mic.

We are also not sure that Bush was "ready" for him. I would hope that he has better speech writers that could have come up with a snappier comment. It seemed off the cuff to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:17 PM

"I would hope that he has better speech writers that could have come up with a snappier comment. It seemed off the cuff to me."

Did you watch the debates? I saw all three and he prepared for months for those. He didn't do any better than that. That was him in all his frat boy cheerleader glory. Of course it seemed off the cuff. It was supposed to seem off the cuff it was supposed to be "Bush showing that he could hande criticism" He was ready for criticism. Loaded for Bear. He let nonsupporters in to his meeting to ask questions and make comments FOR THE FIRST TIME and he chose to handle that forseeable criticism by MOCKING the critic. I'm sorry, I don't see how he handled it well. Well, maybe he handled it well for him. But if you hold him up to the standards requird by his job. he handled it pretty badly.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: heric
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:20 PM

I don't know if I read it on mudcat, but I have heard of a video clip which shows the relaxed and charming Governor George, who could speak easily, if not eloquently, and then showing for contrast the usually flustered President George.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Arne
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:22 PM

'Martin Gibson':

Running the country is the matter at hand as he was elected to do.

You should clean the ***** off your keyboard, it's dropping characters. Seems it left three whole words ("into the ground") off your post.

HTH.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:11 PM

No, Arnie that's what he was elected to do and if you as a flaming radical liberal just can't past the fact that he WAS elected, that is your problem.

You can, as you will twist everything to your outlook anyway. And I do mean twist.

As for Jack the Sailor, he can stew all he wants. And he can be pissed all he wants. He has showed his true colors in this thread and a few others in the last 24 hours.

As I said, Jack. Deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:53 PM

Martin's on the suppress button again -- if you can't argue clearly, just suppress the hell out of 'em. What a cheap-o.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 12:06 AM

Ernest--


"Developers she met with Friday morning didn't seem to mind"

Harry was booed at the meeting after his question to Bush.

What a businessman (or anybody else) will tell somebody he sees as a survey taker--(lies, damned lies and statistics?)-- and what he actually feels may well be 2 different things.

If Harry has business relations with a person built up over the years, fine. Any new person may well however be influenced by what he thinks of Harry. Look at the stereotypes Bushites use on Mudcat when criticizing people who oppose Bush--flaky hippies and drug addled leftists are 2 of the favorites--i.e. not precisely good businessmen. A new person might come to that conclusion--which he would have not, had Harry not made his political views known--on a national scale. Hate mail and worse was a very real possibility--there are crackpot Bushites all over the country--some even on this left-leaning folk music website.

Harry knows his circumstances better than we do but--I repeat--speaking out required courage-----and you are off base suggesting it did not.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Ernest
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 05:57 AM

Ron: please read my post from 10.Apr. 06, 7.36 AM.


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Subject: RE: BS: A Folky Strikes Back
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 09:33 PM

Google and GW

In what is a not too subtle dig at Bush's subpoena of their search records, Google is getting their own nasty dig at 'W' before the gag orders go into effect.

I don't know how long this will work, but go to

http://www.google.com/

and type in the search word: asshole

Dont hit the "search" button, hit the "I'm feeling lucky" button right below the Search.

The result is hysterical, and I have to admit I absolutely admire Google's nerve.


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Mudcat time: 20 October 7:21 AM EDT

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