concertinas - which type?

Subject: concertinas - which type?
From: Margo
Date: 09 Feb 99 - 06:50 PM

I am going to buy a concertina to use as an accompanament to singing. I am primarily interested in sea shantys and traditional Irish tunes. Does anyone have advice as to which style might best suit my purpose; Anglo or English? Thanks,

Margarita

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: jets
Date: 09 Feb 99 - 07:22 PM

I play the button box accordion.If you play the harmonica ,you should be able to play the button box for the action is quite simalar.I also tried to play the english concertina but I found it to be beyond me . Three days ago I bought an anglo and already I am able to play a dozen songs The English has its advantages for it has cromatic capablities .,but I dont think that would be a factor in the music that you intend to play.I would suggest the Anglo and play it like the harmonica

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Kernow John
Date: 09 Feb 99 - 08:24 PM

The advice I was given was if you read music get an English because It's more logical ie notes between the lines on the right hand side and notes on the lines on the left hand side. And only one note per button. The advice I would give is get one with a good range. The first concertina I had was a D/G anglo and like Jets learnt to play some tunes fairly quickly but soon found the limitation of only 2 keys very frustrating especially when accompanying singers.
Make sure you get a good play of both before making up your mind.
Have fun
Baz

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 10 Feb 99 - 12:08 AM

Listen to Louis Killen playing English as an accompanying instrument. Then listen to John Roberts playing both Anglo and English for song accompaniments. Note that while the Anglo is awesome for Irish instrumental music, the English can be used effectively for Irish dance music as well as for music from other cultures (Swedish, Bulgarian, etc.) which often requires key changes and full chromatic capability. The English offers greater flexibility of key, easily playing in C,D,E,F,G,A,B-flat, and the relative minors.

Dave Paton (English concertina player)

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From:
Date: 10 Feb 99 - 01:47 AM

I don't have any advice to give; but there is an interesting site that discusses free reed instruments. It is really a harmonium site; but it still has some interesting info.

Click here if you want to see it.

Murray

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From:
Date: 10 Feb 99 - 02:21 AM

I just followed the links in the site I pointed to. Here is the site that is most relevant.

Murray

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: RWilhelm
Date: 10 Feb 99 - 09:21 AM

I have been playing a and Anglo for about six months and I was amazed at how easy it was to learn. Probably because, as jets said, it's pretty intuitive for a harmonica player. On the down side, I'm constantly asking people to transpose their songs to the key of C.

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: jets
Date: 10 Feb 99 - 01:24 PM

I would sugest that ,for a person that has not had the poportunity to at least try to play either of the two styles,that they contact The Button Box in Amherst MA. from whom they can rent an intrument on a rent to buy pogram.Then they can more easily determin which instrument best meets there capabilitys and needs.

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: bill\sables
Date: 10 Feb 99 - 09:39 PM

I play an anglo but most of my friends are changing to DUET concertinas they say they are much better for accomp. for songs, and tunes for dancing sound pretty good too

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Feb 99 - 11:37 PM

Here's another place you may want to peek at.

http://www.harbour.demon.co.uk/

Margarita, I don't know where you're located but the keepers of the above pages, Chris Timson & Anne Gregson are coming to New England, from there home in England, in May, if you're interested. Barry

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 11 Feb 99 - 01:31 AM

It sounds like your interest leads you more to the anglo but whatever you decide I agree with "Jets"about looking at the Botton Box in Amherst Mass . THey take great care of the Instroments they sell and will be very helpfull.I got a great Crabb anglo from them in D that really made wanderfull timber on my first CD. Also got a very good Wheatstone 48 treble English very nicly referbished from them.If your in the USA there a great shop! Good luck............

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Margo
Date: 11 Feb 99 - 10:42 AM

Thanks for the tips! Guy, I see you have both an anglo and an English....Is it not confusing to play both?

Barry - I am in Vancouver Washington, and not likely to be on the east coast in May but I'll check out the site.

Margarita

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 11 Feb 99 - 08:29 PM

Margarita,Hi.I guess I am more natural on the anglo but have limped along on the english for years.The english lends itself to playing melodies and has a wanderfull sound for cording behind songs{in any key ,as said above} The anglo has great heart and a very full presence behind the voice cording and is alittle more problimatic in the melody department ,though it sounds great doing morris dance tunes and the like.So they both have their strengths and weaknesses.I could not be without either.I did have a cat that attacked my leg every time I practiced the English but that was her opinion.....They are so diferent in the way you hold them that there is no problem keeping them apart.Even in Vancouver I would write to the Botton box .They could send you imformation and tapes on both and they take such good care before sending anything out.I had an english that I bought from Henry Crabb in Isslington London years ago that almost imploded when I got it to this changing climate. You will get to be an enginer before your done nomater which free reed box you get and they are worth the ride..Good luck ,Guy..............

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Johannes Schiefner
Date: 12 Feb 99 - 06:08 PM

If you ever consider playing Irish trad tunes, the anglo-system ("D" for the standard session) is definitely a must!! You will never achieve the same rhythmic precision with an English concertina. I must admit that regarding song accompagniment there are drawbacks in the flexibility of keys. But for dance music the anglo system is superior. (I am an Uilleann piper myself, but my wife plays concertina, and we have a couple of concertina playing friends in Ireland.) Josie

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: rick fielding
Date: 12 Feb 99 - 08:15 PM

I have owned both english and anglo, as well as several melodions and the one thing they all have in common is that my good wife hates them! For a while I thought it was my questionable playing techniques, so I put on a Louis Killen Disc within her earshot...and detected that same raised eyebrow and evil snear. Damn I listen to her Freddie Mercury records!

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Margo
Date: 02 May 99 - 11:03 AM

Hi all. I am dredging up this old thread to let you know the outcome of my search.

The best advice I got was to play both styles before buying. I rented an anglo from the Button Box and found it easy to pick up. (I mean play, you wise guys.) BUT I did quickly realize that the anglo wasn't going to do what I wanted: to accompany myself singing.

I managed to borrow an English (an Italian English, at that!) and I have found that it is exactly what I want. It's funny, I did have trouble switching from Anglo to English, but soon enough, I was playing English just fine.

Rick: I haven't gotten any evil looks from my husband yet about my playing, but I do wonder what the neighbors must think. I like to sit out on the deck and play while the kids knock themselves out on the swing set.

Thanks for the advice, folks.

Margie

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: GUEST,martin
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 07:56 AM

I have recently acquired an old Crabb concertina and want to learn how to play it. I know nothing about concertinas, so I don't know if it's an Anglo or an English. Probably an English, from what people have written here. Can anyone advise me where I could get a tutor for it? Many thanks.

Martin

Martin Wesley-Smith

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: GUEST,squeezeme
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 08:58 AM

Martin,

Quick and dirty identification guide:

If it has 4 straight rows of buttons and plays the same note on both press and draw, then it's an English.

If it has buttons in a series of 2 or 3 parallel arcs and plays a different note on press and draw, then it's an anglo.

Any other combination , then it's a duet of some sort. If this is the case, post a bit more info and I'm sure it can be identified.

I have never seen a tutor which covers all systems, so you need to establish which you have before seeking advice as to the most suitable tutor book.

Good luck.

MC

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:05 AM

Martin -- for answers to all your questions, go to   Concertina.net, and all will be revealed -- Tom

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Eye Lander
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 01:05 PM

hasn't Captain Birdseye written a concertina tutor?

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 01:44 PM

> hasn't Captain Birdseye written a concertina tutor?

Im surprised he hasnt mentioned it as he normally seems to get some kind of reference to it into most of his posts 0:-)

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 04:05 PM

Well I am now the proud owner of an English Concertina......I've just got to learn how to play it. Any tips will be grand if anyone has any!!


Khatt

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 05:55 PM

What did you get then, Khatt?

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 06:48 PM

Ihavebeen busy doing a gig. I have also been otherwise engaged trying to defend Peter Kennedys Integrity.
I have written two tutors one for song accompaniment and one concertina tutor, They have had fairly good reviews.
send me a personal message and I can give you further details if you are inclined. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:07 AM

This Sunday lunchtime (24th. September) there is a trade fair of concertina sellers at the Henry Box School in Witney, Oxfordshire. A lot of major dealers including Barleycorn, Hobgoblin and Marcus Music will be there. It is part of the Concertinas At Witney weekend run by Hands-On Music.

Have a look at http://www.whitecottagewebsites.co.uk/homweekends/concertinas.htm
Although the event is for people attending the weekend of workshops, it should be possible to get permission to visit the trade fair.

Valmai Goodyear
Lewes Arms Folk Club

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 08:16 AM

to guest 24 sep, I have mentioned my tutor in 12 posts including this out of 585 .Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 12:14 PM

to martin, the best tutors are by les branchett, and myself, the concise english concertina tutor, if you are folk orientated,alternatively allan atlas and pauline de snoo ,have tutors which other people have recommended. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 02:23 PM

I am thinking of replacing my current anglo.

I am looking for something mid priced. I cannot afford the kind of wait that some makers seem to have. A 12 month wait is acceptable, anything more is too long.

Any suggestions?

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:14 PM

john connor, information available if you ssend me a P M.

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 05:03 AM

anyone wanting further information on tutors, contact the button box they have copies of ALISTAIR ANDERSONS CONCERTINA WORKSHOP,which i recommend.
concertina net is a bit of a curates egg in my opinion, some well informed people, but a minority of pedantic,    dogmatic, misinformed ones.

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Greg B
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 05:20 PM

Tootler, I think you could do far worse than one of the Morse
concertinas made by the Button Box. Yes, they use 'accordion reed'
technology (but not in blocks like an accordion would have them,
rather in a reed pan but with no 'partitions' so there is still a
'sounding board' effect from the reed pan). To most ears they don't sound accordionish, and the action is quite acceptable, and they are
light as a feather. Good looking, too. The price is very reasonable,
a pittance compared to a restored antique instrument of similar
quality.

Your wait time probably ranges from 'little' to 'none.'

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 05:13 AM

The morse concertinas are very good they are loud and have a good action, but to me they sound like single reeded accordions.
   they cost about two thirds the price of a lachenal 30 key.
lachenal 30keys are about    2500 euros, but jones and lachenal 26 keys are considerably cheaper.
its possible to play irish music on a 26 key, so its another option to consider. for a more up to date price of the morse, check with BUTTON BOX . 26 KEY boxes often sell for about 1000 euros sometimes less. either g d keys or c g are useful. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 05:21 AM

Jane....I got a Wheatstone English Concertina for my birthday!

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: oggie
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 02:32 PM

As I understand from posts on concertina.net a lot of the mid-price instruments use accordian reeds hence Dick's comment is on the mark (the same is true of some modern bandoneons and the post-war ELA Arnold ones).

I confess when my Lachenal 3-row was stolen I couldn't find a replacement I liked the sound of so blew all the insurance payment on a Gibson Mandolin (my cheap mando had also gone). Since then I've gone back to bandoneon with a 1939 Alfred Arnold which has that distinctive, non-accordian, reed sound.

I suspect that the upgrade will depend on the sound you want, if I went back to anglo I'd wince hard and pay the money for a vintage Lachenal again.

oggie

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 09:07 AM

congratulations to catsphiddle,I am a big fan of wheatstone concertinas.

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 06:03 AM

I play the harmonica as well as the english concertina, and I am in fact a munster champion, but I could never get on with an anglo.
    all three systems have been used successfully for songs and playing Irish music. my C D BOXING CLEVER, features John Kirkpatrick Singing with Anglo, Tim Laycock singing with Duet, myself singin with English and Duet, Harry Scurfield singin with anglo,irish tunes played by myself on English, With Harry Scurfield providing chordal accompaniment on the anglo.
a very interesting player is Keith Kendrick who plays both Anglo and english,but not at the same time.
He reminds me of the cricketer Brian Close who used to bat both left and right handed, when asked how did he decide which way he was going to bat, replied it depends which side of the bed I wake up on. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 08:13 PM

Following up suggestions that have been made earlier, for which many thanks, some queries.

Loud is not really needed as I mainly want it to sing with and to play airs. If I am playing jigs and reels, I will stick to my recorder for the time being.

Barleycorn do refurbished concertinas and seem reasonably priced. They mention brass and steel reeds. Anyone have observations on these? I imagine brass reeds would be quieter as brass is a softer metal, but I suspect will be more prone to metal fatigue.

Anyone opinions on Marcus Concertinas. They seem reasonably priced, cheaper than Morse in the UK as they are not imported.

Comments and observations will be much appreciated.

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 10:54 PM

Tootler
Brass reeds were a feature of quite old instruments and you're right; they are quieter and, to some, sweeter. I can't comment on whether they're more fragile except to say that Lachenal used his "Steel Reeds" stamp as a marketing suggestion of a superior instrument. To my ear steel reeds are louder and have a brighter tone.

If you're playing a concer in a band context I suspect brass reeds would be lost unless you're solo and well miked. The best Wheatstones, Lachenals and Jeffries all have steel reeds (there's a certain rumour to the effect that postWWI Jeffries couldn't get the same tone as the prewar ones because the grade of steel was no longer available) and the fact that all these good concers all had steel reeds is probably not accidental.

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:14 AM

Brass reeds are also more likely to go out of tune

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:51 AM

Brass reeds will definitely go out of tune quicker.
marcus uses accordion reeds.
If your playing an anglo I would say best value is 26 key jones or lachenal.

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 05:29 AM

when it comes to playing Irish music, and executing ornamentation, all three systems have much to offer.
the layout of the crane duet maakes it possible to use a lot of fiddle ornamentation without great difficulty [five note fiddle rolls],four note twiddles[ga gg]octaving and drones[ likewise the English]the 30 key anglo can do 90 per cent of this, but has to be conscious of directions to acquire smoothness[ if thats what is wanted]
    30 or 40 years ago the english concertina was a little more common in Ireland than people imagine.Madeline O dowd won an all Ireland on an english , and members of Junior crehans family played the English. often it was a case of what concertinas people could get hold of, and then playing ,enjoying and developing ones own style.
I still think its important to do that which comes naturally on an instrument, for example octaving on an english is relatively easy, for example the note e, however try octaving an [e] on the violin it requires , jumping a string or using the little finger, considerably more difficult on the violin.
   However a lot of cross fingering techniques,four gs [two semi quavers two quavers in 6 /8 time]are easy on all systems providing your not getting your fingers out of positionfor the ensuing notes.[ probably easiest on a duet where you have an overlap of eight unison note left and right]and then the anglo where you have two notes g and a which are overlapped.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: Old Grizzly
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:33 PM

Captain Birdseye said

'concertina net is a bit of a curates egg in my opinion, some well informed people, but a minority of pedantic, dogmatic, misinformed ones'

Bit like mudcat really   ....   

.... bit like 'Life' when you come to think about it.

Dave

Subject: RE: concertinas - which type?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:10 PM

but the owner of concertina net, states that c net is not a democracy.
life in the western world is democratic, mudcat seems democratic , if you dont believe me go and visit deleted and closed threads, here on mudcat. and you will see that joe offer is democratic. shambles probably disagrees, but hes still here.