Songs about British defeats

Subject: Songs about British defeats
From: CET
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:42 PM

I was listening the other day to a beautiful traditional French song, collected in Quebec, about a naval battle involving the loss of a French warship called the Foudrion. It got me to wondering if there are good traditional songs about British defeats at the hands of the French. Any ideas?

Edmund

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:02 PM

Plenty; in France. See, for example, Le Trente et Un du Mois d'Août

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: CET
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:15 PM

I know one or two French songs about defeating the English. My favourite is "Le general de Flipe", about the defeat of the expedition against Quebec in 1690 (on the same album as the Foudrion). I'm not familiar, though, with any songs that the English wrote about their own defeats. There weren't so many at sea (but with some notable exceptions, of course: see Admiral de Grasse), but there were certainly some on land.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: yrlancslad
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM

There's the song "Valiant Sailor", a Napoleonic wars song in which the French win a sea battle. Derek Gifford does a version on his CD "Sailing By". And of course there are several where the hero of the song himself dies at the moment of victory, but thats all that come to mind at present. Still to be fair the Brits didn't lose that many.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: NH Dave
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:24 PM

Jimmy Driftwood did a song about the Battle of New Orleans, at the end of the War of 1812, to the tune 8th of January. It should be in the database under the name The Battle of New Orleans.

Dave

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:30 PM

I don't think I've come across a French song about being defeated by Britain, either. Hardly surprising. On the whole, countries tend to focus on things they feel proud of.

Having said that, Paul Jones got good coverage in British tradition; he was an expatriate Scot, though, so I dare say it wasn't quite the same thing. As a rule, historically, people only make songs about being defeated if (a) they don't really mind or (b) they feel bitterly resentful about it.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:33 PM

Jimmy Driftwood's song (though very good) is modern and American; so irrelevant to the question asked.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Scotus
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:47 PM

I was at a party in the south of France, in the early 1980s, and a couple of locals started playing the Battle of New Orleans tune on fiddle and melodeon. I said that I was surprised to hear them playing an American tune (no-one else had all night) and they looked at me as if I was mad! When I told them what it was the tune to, they said - no - it's a local folk tune from this area. I guess it must have gone to Louisiana via Quebec with the Acadians and presumably Jimmy Driftwood heard it somewhere and decided to write the song to it. The French guys had never heard of Jimmy's song.

Jack

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:51 PM

The name of the fiddle tune is "The Eighth of January" and it was around long before the song was written to it - but the tune is named after the date of the battle, and was presumeably composed way back then to commemorate the victory. That's my guess, anyway.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Scotus
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:52 PM

I also remember hearing the British Consul in Bordeaux being interviewed on BBC Radio some years ago and he talked about the 'Hundred Years War' between Britain and France - pretty funny when you consider that Scotland was an ally of France at the time. The tune of 'Scots Wha Hae' (Hey Tutti Tatti)is still played by French Military bands quite regularly (not to mention quite tunefully). Joan of Arc had a number of Scots companies in her army!

Jack

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: GUEST,Joe Richman
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 11:17 PM

Two verses in Driftwood's "Battle of New Orleans" mention the French, but neither gives them any credit for defeating the British:


Well the French told Andrew, "You had better run
For Packenham's a=comin' with a bullet in his gun."
Old Hickory said he didn't give a damn
He's a-gonna whup the britches off of Colonel Packenham.

AND

Well we marched back to town in our dirty ragged pants
And we danced all night with the pretty girls from France;
We couldn't understand 'em, but they had the sweetest charms
And we understood 'em better when we got 'em in our arms.


I don't know if there are any 'Cajun or Creole songs about the defeat of the British at New Orleans, either trad or modern. So we don't yet have a song celebrating the victory from a French perspective.

Joe

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 03:03 AM

Admiral Benbow is about a defeat by the French, albeit that Benbow was the hero.
His 2 captains, Kirby and Wade, declined to fight.

keith.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 03:37 AM

The British don't have defeats, just glorious retreats. Charles Wolfe's poem about the end of the disastrous campaign in north Spain in the Napoleonic wars is an example:

NOT a drum was heard, not a funeral note,        
As his corse to the rampart we hurried;        
Not a soldier discharged his farewell shot        
O'er the grave where our hero we buried.        

We buried him darkly at dead of night,                 
The sods with our bayonets turning,        
By the struggling moonbeam's misty light        
And the lanthorn dimly burning.        

No useless coffin enclosed his breast,        
Not in sheet or in shroud we wound him;        
But he lay like a warrior taking his rest        
With his martial cloak around him.        

Few and short were the prayers we said,        
And we spoke not a word of sorrow;        
But we steadfastly gazed on the face that was dead,        
And we bitterly thought of the morrow.        

We thought, as we hollow'd his narrow bed        
And smooth'd down his lonely pillow,        
That the foe and the stranger would tread o'er his head,        
And we far away on the billow!        

Lightly they'll talk of the spirit that 's gone,        
And o'er his cold ashes upbraid him—        
But little he'll reck, if they let him sleep on        
In the grave where a Briton has laid him.        

But half of our heavy task was done        
When the clock struck the hour for retiring;        
And we heard the distant and random gun        
That the foe was sullenly firing.        

Slowly and sadly we laid him down,        
From the field of his fame fresh and gory;        
We carved not a line, and we raised not a stone,        
But we left him alone with his glory.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Danks
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 06:05 AM

Scotus: I'd put money on those French singers being mistaken. By the early 80s, the song was over 20 years old, and had been a top ten hit in the UK by Lonnie Donegan. The "French" singers probably picked the song up orally, and assumed that it was local - and old.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 07:20 AM

Back Home by the World Cup squad

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: BanjoRay
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 07:24 AM

Danks - the tune, which the French guys were playing, is much, much older than the song, which was written by Jimmy Driftwood in the fifties, I believe.
Ray

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Hrothgar
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 07:32 AM

The French have not won many battles against anybody significant for quite some time. They fought a few honourable draws in the First World war (notably at Verdun), but the only naval battle they have won in the last two hundred years was when they sank the "Rainbow Warrior".

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: gecko
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 07:45 AM

Hrothgar, not sure if the term 'naval battle' applies to the sinking of the Greenpeace vessel 'Rainbow Warrior'. Surely the term 'battle' implies that both sides are cognizant of the fact that an attack is a probability?
YIU
gecko

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 08:07 AM

The Acadians did not come from Quebec to Louisiana. Acadia was a French colonial province that predated French settlement in Quebec. On todays map it would include Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, and most of Maine.
After France lost it to the English they in turn lost part (Me.)to the USA. The English chased out the French Acadians and stole their land. Many of these exiles settled in Louisiana to become the Cajun.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Grab
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 08:15 AM

Hrothgar, they did have some successes in Algeria, but they were definitely pyrrhic victories and only delayed the inevitable.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: GUEST,Oor Willie
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 08:39 AM

This song was written by William Sinclair to a marching tune composed by J Marquis Chisholm. 1297 - William Wallace v Longshanks army.


Battle of Stirling
To Scotland's ancient realm,
Proud Edward's armies came;
To sap our freedom and overwhelm
Our martial forces in shame.
"It shall not be" brave Wallace cried!
"It shall not be" his chiefs relied!
By the name our fathers gave her,
Our steel shall drink the crimson stream,
We'll all her dearest right redeem,
Our own broadswords shall save her.
With hopes of triumph flush'd,
The squadrons hurried o'er
Thy Bridge Kildean, and heaving rush'd
Like wild waves to the shore.
"They come, they come" was the gallant cry,
"They come, they come" was the loud reply.
O strength thou gracious giver,
By love and freedoms stainless faith,
We'll dare the darkest night of death,
We'll drive them back forever.

All o'er the waving broom,
In chivalry and grace,
Shone England's radiant spear and plume
By Stirling's rocky base.
And stretching far beneath the view,
Proud Cressingham, thy banners flew.
When like a torrent rushing,
O God! from right and left the flame,
Of Scottish swords like lightning came,
Great Edward's legions crushing.

High praise, ye gallant band,
Who in the face of day,
With daring hearts and fearless hands
Have cast your chains away.
The foemen fell on ev'ry side,
In crimson hues the Forth was dyed.
Bedew'd with blood the heather,
While cries triumphant shook the air,
Thus shall we do, shall we dare,
Wherever Scotsmen gather

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 08:58 AM

The Forfar Sodger wasn't exactly a heroic victor, was he?

There were quite a few broadsides about the Crimean War (mostly looking for somebody to blame as the British campaign went pear-shaped). From the South African war, there are a couple of pipe tunes comemorating the British Army's worst defeat which are still in the repertoire - "The 93rd at Modder River" and "Magersfontein". Then there is a dance which indirectly commemorates the Dunkirk defeat, "The Reel of the 51st Division".

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Danks
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 09:25 AM

Re The Battle of New Orleans. Yes, the tune Driftwood uses was " The 8th of January" as stated by an earlier poster.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: PeteBoom
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:16 AM

Re Battle of New Orleans - The '50's version Rock-a-billie stuff was a reworking of an older ballad set to the same tune. There was a happy? thread on the song this past January.

Other than Benbow, I can't think of any British songs about British defeats. After all, the look bad in the newspaper and upset civilians at their breakfast. ;)

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: GUEST,Taffy
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:06 PM

Bannockburn, Culloden ...

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: sapper82
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 02:53 PM

Guest Obie;
>The English chased out the French Acadians and stole their land.

Considering they pinched the land off the Indians first, the Arcadians didn't have a lot to complain about!

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: GUEST,Union Jack
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 03:51 PM

Whatever did happen to Owen Glendower?

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 06:59 PM

Not a defeat at the hands of the arms of the French, but The Constitution and the Guerriere celebrates another British contre-temps during the War of 1812.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:27 PM

It's Acadian (no "R")
The Acadians were in fact welcomed by the Mi'kmaq Indians and lived in harmony with them. The French and Mi'kmaq were allied against the English and both groups suffered greatly as a result.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Artful Codger
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:28 PM

Ward the Pirate (if no French angle is requisite.)

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Hrothgar
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 05:47 AM

Whatever did happen to Owen Glendower?

Refused to accept the pardon offered to all rebels by Henry V on his accession to the throne, and disappeared. Therer are various stories about what happened to him, including living in disguise in England.

My gusee is that he lived quietly in semi-hiding in Wales. He was about 50 years old when Henry's pardon came through, and after a tough life, he might not have lived on for all that long.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Hrothgar
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 05:50 AM

Hrothgar, they did have some successes in Algeria - well, I did say "against anybody significant."


Hrothgar, not sure if the term 'naval battle' applies to the sinking of the Greenpeace vessel 'Rainbow Warrior'

Irony, mate, irony. Called by uncharitable people "sarcasm".

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Joe Richman
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 11:17 PM

Just posting this to get a reference in my posting list with the cookie reset. (Earlier post as GUEST). Still no answer to my question about songs of the battle of New Orleans from the perspective of Louisiana French residents.

Joe

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: CET
Date: 18 May 10 - 05:05 AM

I was listening to the Foudrion song on the Ipod yesterday, so I thought I would refresh this thread. I can't believe it's been five years.

There were a couple of good suggestions, Valiant Sailor and Admiral Benbow. The poem about Sir John Moore would be good too, if it had been set to music.

Any other suggestions - not American or Scottish songs about victories over the English, but British songs about defeats at the hands of the French?

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 May 10 - 05:13 AM

Not a song but a poem, Browning's "Herve Riel" celebrates a French naval victory over the the English in 1692. (Herve should have an acute accent on the second e, but I don't know how to do one).
Tennyson's Revenge celebrates Richard Grenville's courage while being defeated by the Spaniards.Again, it's a poem rather than a song, but it has been set to music by Stanford. And a rattling good piece it is too.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: BobKnight
Date: 18 May 10 - 05:46 AM

Guest:Paul Burke 21/4/06

The poem is actaully about the death of general Sir John Moore at Corunna. The actual title is, "The Burial Of Sir John Moore After Corunna."

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Susan of DT
Date: 18 May 10 - 07:39 AM

Modern songs about the French beating the Scots at Ticonderoga:
Duncan Campbell
Piper's Refrain

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 10 - 07:54 AM

To get an acute accent you push the key marked Alt Gr on your computer at the same time as the e, or for that matter any other vowel (apart from y)- é á í ó ú.

.....................

Best song about a British defeat is maybe, topically enough, about Afghanistan. Kipling's Ford at Kabul River, turned into a song by Peter Bellamy:

Kabul town is sun and dust --
Blow the bugle, draw the sword --
I'd ha' sooner drownded fust
'Stead of 'im beside the ford.
Ford, ford, ford o' Kabul river,
Ford o' Kabul river in the dark!
You can 'ear the 'orses threshin', you can 'ear the men a-splashin',
'Cross the ford o' Kabul river in the dark.

Kabul town was ours to take --
Blow the bugle, draw the sword --
I'd ha' left it for 'is sake --
'Im that left me by the ford.
Ford, ford, ford o' Kabul river,
Ford o' Kabul river in the dark!
It's none so bloomin' dry there; ain't you never comin' nigh there,
'Cross the ford o' Kabul river in the dark?

Kabul town'll go to hell --
Blow the bugle, draw the sword --
'Fore I see him 'live an' well --
'Im the best beside the ford.
Ford, ford, ford o' Kabul river,
Ford o' Kabul river in the dark!
Gawd 'elp 'em if they blunder, for their boots'll pull 'em under,
By the ford o' Kabul river in the dark.

Turn your 'orse from Kabul town --
Blow the bugle, draw the sword --
'Im an' 'arf my troop is down,
Down an' drownded by the ford.
Ford, ford, ford o' Kabul river,
Ford o' Kabul river in the dark!
There's the river low an' fallin', but it ain't no use o' callin'
'Cross the ford o' Kabul river in the dark.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 10 - 08:06 AM

I left out the first two verses there:

Kabul town's by Kabul river --
Blow the bugle, draw the sword --
There I lef' my mate for ever,
Wet an' drippin' by the ford.
Ford, ford
, ford o' Kabul river,
Ford o' Kabul river in the dark!
There's the river up and brimmin', an' there's 'arf a squadron swimmin'
'Cross the ford o' Kabul river in the dark.

Kabul town's a blasted place --
Blow the bugle, draw the sword --
'Strewth I sha'n't forget 'is face
Wet an' drippin' by the ford!
Ford, ford, ford o' Kabul river,
Ford o' Kabul river in the dark!
Keep the crossing-stakes beside you, an' they will surely guide you
'Cross the ford o' Kabul river in the dark.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 May 10 - 08:22 AM

Ford o' Kabul River isn't about a military defeat but about that other great military tradition, the cock-up.

On 31 March 1879 the 10th Hussars were attempting to ford the Kabul River at night. The route hadn't been staked out as it should have been, and as a result the column went off-course into deeper water. 46 men and 13 horses were drowned.

More details here

Kipling of course wrote it as a poem, but in Peter Bellamy's version it makes a grand song, and with a particular resonance today.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: ollaimh
Date: 18 May 10 - 11:23 AM

je suis un demi acadien, et j'habite maintenan d'acadie. le grand derangerment et une grande crime d'geurre. et sapper 82 vous etes racist.

the english committed one of the great ethnic clensings of their empire in the grenad derangement , driving the peacefull acadiens from their homes. they did indeed live peacefully with the native population, those native do remember the good days before the expulsion(le grand derangement) when the acadiens were not land nuhgry like the english who arrived later and they didn't round up their children and put them in residential schools where about half died.

the acadiems were a small population who practiced a kind of argiculture that reclaimed the salt marshes from the sea so they didn't need the native land, and they were, with a few exceptions,non violent in the face of the english militarism. these english included the american english colonies by the way.governor shirley from massachutsetts   did the dirty work with the help and legal authority of the english governor in halifax--lawrence.

so please some couth rather than such ignorance and racism. acadiens are now well established in nouveau brunswick and after a century of severe persecution have rebuilt a flourishing culture and community--that by the way--respects the rights of minorities much more than any north american english culture i have ever encountered. le grand derangement remains their holocoust and if you want to alienate every acadien just apout that kind of ignorance and bigotry

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 18 May 10 - 11:50 AM

The burial of Sir John Moore has been put to one of Dibdin's tunes by 'Strawhead', very succesfully as well.

Subject: RE: Songs about British defeats
From: Bert
Date: 18 May 10 - 03:54 PM

Not a song but