Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal

Subject: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 02:00 AM

First of all, nobody's going to be eating any folk singers! I know this is a controversial subject, and I'll try to be as general as I can. I've noticed in another thread that some folks are conö!Î à!Î €Ô
€8 ÿ´ÿ
Message_ID8 
쳌£¥ Wÿ8 Ð|£¥ '
Ð
Hò' L
…éã
d^k Mf`æ' [n@^


8ô' (Á

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: Barbara
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 02:01 AM

nope, nobody's eating folkies, just their threads...

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 02:04 AM

Sorry folks, my last two paragraphs got eaten up. Don't know whether to try again or just forget it!

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 02:24 AM

Okay, gonna give it one more shot.

First of all, nobody's going to be eating any folk singers. I know this is a controversial subject and I'll try to be as general as I can. I've noticed in another thread that some folks are concerned about a kind of "exclusivity" that can happen even in our egalitarian folky world. I have my concerns as well, although often when "groups" band together they have what seems to them, logical reasons for trying to maintain the initial aims and dynamics of the "group". To focus on one area for the moment, let me tell you of an experience I've had (more than once) that has made me gun-shy about where I can even talk about this. I used to participate in a weekly jam where the focus was on old time (as opposed to "old tyme") country music. Songs were mosty of the Roy Acuff, Hank Williams and Hank Snow ilk. As the jam became more popular and better attended the music became a lot less fun to play. Some of the newer peopled played loudly, out of tune, and definitely were there to show off. I love this kind of music almost as much as I love the traditional forms and frankly,at a certain point, felt the need to at least insist (VERY nicely though) that we get in tune. Within two days I was made aware that several people in the jam were complaining that I wanted everyone to be "professionals". What utter crap! If showing respect for the music is going to tick some people off, they why bother to go? I don't any more.

To my way of thinking, you have to invest something in the music other than just showing up. You DON'T (double emphasis here)have to be a good singer or player to be part of a gathering, but if you come on with attitude galore and haven't got the chops yet to complement the group's music, It's going to make things difficult. Why not take a minor part for a few sessions until you're ready? It's just good manners.

Of course there are many reasons why some feel the need to exclude others, and sadly, some are just personal and others have more to do with power and pecking orders than music. As to my modest proposal? I ain't got one yet.

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: BK
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 03:01 AM

Boy, rick, have you touched a raw nerve for me - or more properly a formerly raw & now partly healed nerve. I let off steam abt it mostly abt a year ago on the mudcat, & it occasionlly comes out in recent times.

I think I know how you might feel. Your ethhic to not rain on another's parade can get stomped on by the arrogance you describe. Then you want to speak up, but you wish you didn't have to. It can be dispiriting. Either way you feel like you loose & the arrogant show-offs win. I don't know any easy answer, and we don't all have the hutzpah - nor desire - to brash it out against these types. Perhaps it's partly luck, partly cultural, partly expectations as to how much disappointment what should be a fun experience can produce.

I've experienced every variety (I think) of the type of players you describe; most often in the greater DC metroplex, but it really can happen anywhere.

Be interesting to see the responses..

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 04:25 AM

Musicians, God love 'em, can be a real pain. Maybe it's because we're all a bit insecure. Maybe we all are acutely conscious that there is always somebody who is vastly better than we can ever be - and yet, on the other hand, we ourselves are vastly better than many others. So we look down on those who are less than we, and expect to be dumped on by our betters.
Yeah, I think it's insecurity. Church musicians, by the way, are the worst. I've spent my life with church musicians, and it's been tough. I've dealt with murderers and drug dealers and even police officers on the job, and found them to be charming in comparison to church musicians.
Folk musicians can be pretty nasty, too. We all have our own categories of what we consider to be "folk," and we tend to exclude everybody else. I suppose a lot of the music I like would be considered "pop" by folk purists. I've carved myself a niche and feel pretty comfortable here, but I have to admit that am a bit apprehensive about meeting other Mudcatteers in a situation where there might be singing. I know very few truly traditional songs completely - and what few I do know, are usually the Peter, Paul and Mary versions or things out of Rise Up Singing.
It's funny how we can be so exclusive in our view of folk music - true "folk" music should be music of the people, and should include a wide variety of new and old music. Over the next several months, I'm going to be traveling to places where I'm likely to meet Mudcatteers. If it happens to be a singing situation, I hope you'll be nice to me. The songs I know might not be the ones you like, but some of them are pretty good.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 08:29 AM

Joe

You would be made very welcome should you decide to visit the UK during your travels.

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: Bobby Bob, Ellan Vannin
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 08:37 AM

In a singing and music session a few years (and quite a few beers) ago, there was a member of a Welsh male voice choir present. People were singing a mixture of traditional material and modern popular folk, so it ran from big ballads to McColl, Joni Mitchell, The Eagles, et al.

This wasn't the sort of song our Welsh friend sang, so every time it came to his turn, he sang Victorian drawing room ballads, and was very much appreciated.

I find sessions tend to throw in everything from traditional to music hall to self-compositions, and as long as people are making a genuine contribution, I don't think it matters. I always think that musicians appreciate music of all genres. It's the people who don't actually play or sing who want to categorise all the time.

However, people playing too loud, out of tune, etc can be a pain, but again, if they're making a genuine attempt, it's different.

Sorry, that's not very specific either - no modest proposals yet - but I don't suppose you were really expecting a Swift response.

Shoh slaynt,

Bobby Bob

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 12:10 PM

This is why I avoid "established" sessions, for the most part. I much prefer announcing a session on a week's notice, or an impromptu session. It seems that some of the pure joy of grabbing a song or a tune and playing it is lost in the "rules" of established sessions. I am aware that that is a broad generalization, but I have found it to be the case. That is not to say that one should not be able to expect people to tune their instruments. I would probably lean over and tell the offending person, in a very nice and polite way to tune the beast.

Joe, I once found myself wanting to play for the Mass. I thought it would be a great way to express my devotion, by using a God given gift. It soon became clear that I would not be allowed to show any creativity or digress from the repertoire, even though all the songs I wanted to choose came from the appropriate, diocese approved songbooks. Needless to say, I got out of that. It is still my hope to someday put together the music for a St. Patricks Day Mass and have it performed with whistles, Uillean Pipes, Irish Bouzouki, etc.

Ending note: I miss you all, and can't wait for things to let up to where I can participate on a more regular basis, instead of just popping in and reading, drop the occassional line and splitting. Take care.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: rick fielding
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 02:29 PM

Gosh Joe, "Church musicians a pain in the ass?" Who'da thunk it?

On a number of occasions I've been at song circles where most of the regulars are knowledgable and reasonably skilled. The repertoire is often very traditional with sometimes one song immediately followed by a variant of that song from another source. That kind of "inner devotion" can be very intimidating to a newcomer...but everyone can learn a chorus by the eighth time around and that's really the ice-breaker. (it's somewhat like going to group therapy...which I've also done) Now, even though I've made my living in folk music for thirty years and know thousands of songs, I'm still a little nervous when it comes my time to lead a song at one of these (often structured) gatherings. But my rule of thumb has become..pick something with a chorus, (and don't forget that you can take an extra one minute to teach it to everybody) and present the song sincerely. I've never been made to feel an outsider after doing that. Because of my short attention span and tendency to improvise, I've discovered that virtually all my traditional repertoire has gone through so many changes as to be almost unrecognisable from the original source I learned from. Rarely has anyone ever dumped on me for "changing it". I suspect that if I started off with a flashy flat picking instrumental, I'd get some raised eyebrows and probably would feel somewhat "excluded". Well, I've seen that happen, and have no sympathy for the person who later complained that the (established) group was "stuffy" and unbending.

And Joe, nuttin' wrong with "PP&M" if you sing em like you mean em. And don't most of their songs have great choruses?

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: reggie miles
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 04:39 PM

Joe, church musicians, I have had some psychodramas with that group and song circles too. I'm glad I didn't let them get me too down. It is intimidating to have entire groups of those you consider on the same musical path treat your abilities in a less than respectful manner. If ten people say lie down should you? Well I found other groups to work with. I didn't change to accomodate those who couldn't deal with who I was musically. That's just the way I am. There's an endless variety of musical experiences to get involved with out there, a whole lot of something for everyone. Don't let the bad ones get you down. Traditional points of view about musical styles are something difficult to overcome. There is value in preservation of musical expression but isn't music ultimately for each of us a personal expression of who we are now. Too loud, out of tune, playing a washboard in a bluegrass jam, a musical saw in a blues jam. Go for it, let it happen, to quote Willie McTell, "Zion's songs will sound so much sweeter, when the pearly gates unfold." reggie

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: BK
Date: 14 Feb 99 - 01:45 AM

Joe: sent this also (I think) to your personal room, but I'm putting it here to try to be sure you get it. We might could even jam a little..

Noted your statement abt travelling. When & where? If youre coming by central Missouri - near Columbia to be more precise, we have just moved into a house big enough to have an honest-to-gosh small guest bedroom, w/a real bed, not just the hide-a-bed.. We're comin' up in the world! We will continue to have a plethora of boxes, only slowly improving, for the next many weeks to months but the bedroom is functional. never mind the phone patch for my computor/fax running out the door & across the hall.. If you can stand the boxes & a very no-smoking house, we'd be glad to put you up if we're in town, & we usually are. (May get out to Milwaukee to see Schooner Fare, maybe... But, naturally, I just found out I'm scheduled to be on call that week.)

Any way, let us know.

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: DonMeixner
Date: 14 Feb 99 - 10:36 AM

Rick,

This sounds a little like my rant of a few days ago in an unrelated thread. ( The woman who asked about singing in a band with manily lead instruments.) Instrumental sessions are intrumental and vocal sessions are vocal and never the twain shall meet. Give me a room full of dentists, farmers, comic book artists, high school kids and former nuns who are clearly amateurs and serious about their fun over a squad of folkmusic snobs anyday.

" If you are going to go the trouble to learn "St. Anne's Reel", you ought to learn it correctly." (Actually quote from a fiddler at The Limerick Pub session in Syracuse.) Apparently the fiddler had never heard of arrangements or the folk process or local variations.

Done complaining,

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From:
Date: 14 Feb 99 - 03:04 PM

Nobody is going to eat folkies. They're too thin and they live on questionable diets. Opera singers make far better fare.

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Feb 99 - 03:40 PM

Tim, my experience has been that singer-songwriters and old tyme frailing banjo players are the thin ones. Traditional ballad singers, blues guitarists, and certain folk song collectors tend to be reasonably well padded. The only way we could be sure is to ask "How much do Mudcatters weigh?" And I sure as hell ain't goin' in that direction.

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Feb 99 - 03:55 PM

Actually, it just occurred to me that the extended folk music "family" may be one of the few areas where folks who are "well rounded" don't get dumped on. This started out with some of my thoughts on "exclusion" voluntary or otherwise, and I think "we" care a lot less about what folks "look like" than the vast majority of "groups".

Rick (rarely mistaken for robert redford) Fielding

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: Chet W.
Date: 14 Feb 99 - 07:01 PM

Here's how I saw it handled by professionals: Circa 1982-3 when I was in Washington (DC) I went to a concert by Dedannan (popular Irish group at the time) and the promoter of the show had also hired a "traditional" Irish stepdancer. For some reason the band didn't like the dancer, and everytime he'd get up to dance they would start to play the music faster and faster and even faster, until the dancer would give up and pout his way off the stage. Don't know the cause, but it was interesting to see.

Chet

Subject: RE: Folk Cliques..A Modest Proposal
From: rick fielding
Date: 14 Feb 99 - 09:35 PM

Chet, I've read several times about a similar approach in the jazz world. Apparently Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker and a few of their friends were getting tired of some less accomplished musicians frequenting their jam sessions (in Kansas City I believe) They worked out a system of chords and melody that would totally confuse anyone not in the know, and very quickly got rid of the players who couldn't keep up. This style started to be known as Be Bop. Like DeDannan they also played it real fast!