BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers

Subject: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 10:34 PM

Here is a call.

Powerful Stuff

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 11:20 PM

I think I heard the call when I was about twelve years old. I decided that the only honorable way to live my life was to become a heretic. In this day and age, everyone should become a heretic and listen to that voice inside that tells you the difference between right and wrong.

Most of what passes for Christianity today is a far cry from what the early Christians believed. Learning about the Cathars in Southern France did it for me. I knew that no modern church could claim to be righteous when the foundation of the church was built on genocide. Politicians gained control of Christianity a very long time ago.

Funny how politics and religion always boil down to one and the same.

Fundamentalists are just power hungry freaks that want to control the lives of others so that they can profit from their misery.

Regardless of your religion, start looking at the history of your church and ask questions about how they are investing your weekly offering. You'd be surprised!

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Janie
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 11:25 PM

Thanks for that link, Ebbie. You're right. Very Powerful stuff.

Bill Moyers has such a way of pulling the threads together so that one can actually see the tapestry, or pattern.

I'll be forwarding that speech to alot of people!

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 11:54 PM

Terrific.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 02:40 AM

dianavan, that's a broader brush than I would use. I know many fundamentalists- and I don't know many power hungrey ones. I think it is more a delusional wish to have things simple and spelled out so it's nice and easy to say, This Is what I believe.

And even then I expect I am generalizing too much.

And again- not all churches and faiths are the same. The Plain people, for instance, which includes Quakers and Hutterites and Amish among several others, definitely - and defiantly - do NOT send their offerings to any military or to any despots.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 11:16 AM

We basically all follow different paths. Many appear to be similar but the amount of rocks and roots to trip on vary.

When we have to continually seek out someone to tell us what we think we want to believe rather than study and find out for ourselves, then that path is even less defined.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 12:29 AM

There ought to be a law prohibiting one and all from doing anything "in the name of Jesus".

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 01:59 AM

True enough, Ebbie.

I was just tagging on to the link. Did you read it?

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: GUEST,G
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 07:41 AM

Michaelr, why not, in your case, simply ignore those people?

How about putting aside the first 4 of the Ten Commandments and going with numbers 5 - 10?

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 07:56 AM

Back in history everyone was bad by our standards.
You should not rubbish a modern institution because long dead predecessors did things unacceptable today.
Christians aspire to be loving, tolerant, and forgiving. How can that be bad?
There are some wacky churches, but the ones I know, Anglican and Methodist, could not be faulted in their giving.

In most charities and even the environmental movement you will find that people of faith are present in disproportionate numbers. Thank God for them.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 09:21 AM

If, for instance, The Salvation Army disbanded, would there be a rush of "heretics" to continue their wonderful work?

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 09:37 AM

I have worked in Amish Country for most of my professional life -- Geauga County, Ohio; Elkhart County, Indiana, and so on (if you are aware of Amish geography you'll recognize these). There are both Mennonite and Hutterite near here. I count both Amish, Mennonite, and Hutterite among my friends.

They are very good people, overall. And they are preyed upon by outsiders, as fodder for the gawking of tourists and even as crime victims. I know of cases where an Amish girl, walking along the road, would be snatched and raped; where Amish men were beaten, robbed, and left for dead -- most recently where a 67 year old Amish man was blackmailed. And one of the most intelligent people I've ever met was an Amishman who never had formal education beyond the eighth grade (he testified in the Amish Schools cases, wrote several books, etc.).

I've know Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, and many others who, like most of the Plain People I know tried to live the actual teachings of Yeshua of Nazareth.

I know Southern Baptists who are appalled by the tack taken by their church leaders.

Don't confuse the message with the messenger or the church with the religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Janie
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 10:27 AM

You got it, Rapaire!

From the conclusion of the speech:

    "So, my friends at Wake Forest, there is work to do. These charlatans and demagogues know that by controlling a society's most emotionally-laden symbols, they can control America, too. They must be challenged...."

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 10:32 AM

Which link is that, dianavan?

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 10:56 PM

Ebbie - I'm talking about the link you provided.

I totally agree with the article. I, too, believe that religion has been hijacked by some pretty unscrupulous money changers and politicians. I know that I was appalled when I looked into the investments being made by the Presbyterian Church. That was a long time ago and maybe things have changed but at the time, they were investing heavily in the arms industry. That was enough to make me leave the church. I can't stand hypocracy.

Going further back in time, I looked into the financial dealings of the "holy Catholic church" and was equally disgusted.

Yes, I believe there are very good people who belong to churches. Its just that I believe they are misguided and misinformed.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 11:00 PM

Didn't somebody throw the moneychangers out of the Temple a couple thousand years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 11:57 PM

Ye gods. Do you really think that I would post a link to an article that I had not read? What would be the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 01:23 AM

An article to pass on via the link provided. I am not a Christian, but Moyers discusses some basic truths that should hold for everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: GUEST,G
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 08:14 AM

Moyers is an old, frustrated man and can't decide what he believes.
Otherwise, good point Q.

Why would give me pause much more that Moyers is several of you posters.

My first instinct was to think "what are they afraid of?"
If one has made up her/his mind as to their belief status, then why not stick with it. Unless, you did not do adequate self examination coupled with the required research and need to pull others into your wavering belief system so as to feel that you are where you want to be. Simply my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 08:46 AM

Dear GUEST:

I was brought up Catholic. I have a college minor (21 semester hours) in Theology and another in Philosophy. I have read and studied extensively in Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Judaism, Atheism, various Pagan religions, Wicca, and Animism, as well as Native American and other belief structures. These reading range from pop culture (e.g., Carlos Castanada's fakery) to works by heavy-duty scholars in theology, anthropology and other disciplines.

What I have found is that there are common, underlying, threads among all "religions" (including atheism). These include, but are not limited to, things like "take care of others" "don't kill anyone unnecessarily" and "don't steal or lie."

If these are "wavering belief systems" I weep for humanity.

And did you know that Yeshua of Nazareth, according to the New Testament, never ever said one single word against gays or people of another race or (according to the Jesus Seminar) never even claimed to be the "Son of God" or the "Son of Man" or even said outright that he was the "Messiah"?

Before you go around condemning things, I urge you to study them. I have, and I have found that the deeds of a Church are very very often at odds with the beliefs and teachings a Church professes. This does not invalidate the teachings of a religion, but it does invalidate the Church.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: GUEST,G
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 11:21 AM

Rapaire, has a post been deleted? I cannot locate the one your post is responding to.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 12:38 PM

I believe that morality and ethics have nothing to do with religion.
It's not a popular view at this time. There are all kinds of people and some of them profess religion and do good works (in my view in spite of their religion). When I look at the writings of the book religions such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and others I see a lot of attention devoted to violence and meanness. Not all of the writing but much of it. Dogma seems to walk hand-in-hand with the kind of authoritarian rigidity that produces easy solutions mainly military or ones that carry a big stick.

I realize that this view is hugely unpopular in our country that prides itself on houses of worship and attendance there.

I do respect religious people who have morality and ethics in their behavior but do not attribute those qualities in them to their religious teachings.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 12:49 PM

"Why would give me pause much more that Moyers is several of you posters." Guest/G

That was a bad point, imo, at which to become unintelligible, G. What, exactly, are you saying?

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 02:42 PM

Well said, Frank. I have read from a number of religious books (the Bible, Koran, and others), and find much of the text devoted to celebrations of violence and harsh condemnations of infidels, nonbelievers, and similar categories of "them". Good things are done in the name of religion, and I applaud them because they are good things. But the texts that provide the underpinnings of these various religions seem pretty bloodthirsty and intolerant to me. I sometimes find myself wondering whether the people who maintain that all goodness stems from religion have actually read the texts they claim to believe in.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 10:22 PM

...the deeds of a Church are very very often at odds with the beliefs and teachings a Church professes...

And exactly the same could be said of a person.

...This does not invalidate the teachings of a religion, but it does invalidate the Church.

And if you said that of a person, would it necessarily be true? And what does "invalidate" actually mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 04:15 AM

The texts underpinning Christianity, the gospels, are full of sacrifice for other, turning the other cheek to those who smite, generosity and service to the outcast and poor, love and forgiveness.

Which of these do the detractors object to?

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 04:38 AM

Frank, you wrote
some of them profess religion and do good works (in my view in spite of their religion).

I suggest that your view could be changed by asking them why they give up so much of thomselves to help others.
They will very soon put you straight.

I have mentioned the Salvation Army who do so much, especially in offering shelter and support to those who have fallen through all society's nets. How can you say that their faith is irrelevant to their actions?
Talk to some of them!

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 02:21 PM

THE PREACHER AND THE SLAVE
(Joe HilI)

Long-haired preachers come out every night,
Try to tell you what's wrong and what's right;
But when asked how 'bout something to eat
They will answer with voices so sweet:

Main Chorus:

You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and Pray, live on hay,
You'll get pie in the sky when you die.

And the starvation army they play,
And they sing and they clap and they pray.
Till they get all your coin on the drum,
Then they tell you when you are on the bum:

If you fight hard for children and wife
Try to get something good in this life
You're a sinner and bad man, they tell,
When you die you will sure go to hell.

Workingmen of all countries unite,
Side by side we for freedom will fight;
When the world and its wealth we have gained
To the grafters we'll sing this refrain:

Last Chorus:

You will eat, bye and bye,
When you've learned how to cook and to fry
Chop some wood, 'twill do you good
And you'll eat in the sweet bye and bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 02:30 PM

Frank, and all--

Once again, as you said (sort of), it's the old dichotomy---that there are at least two sides to every coin. Fascinating paradoxes.

As Lenny Bruce said once long ago, "We need the squares; they run the subways!!"

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: GUEST,Art Thieme again...
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 02:34 PM

Lenny meant "squares" as opposed to those like US--the cool and the hip ones.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 03:14 PM

Bill Moyers is one of the more intelligent and knowledgeable people around these days. He has an excellent grasp of the state of the country and the world, and he has the eloquence to delineate it clearly and accurately for those who find the whole thing too messy to comprehend.

If one watched any parts, or all, of Bill Moyers' two PBS series, one on poetry and the other on "The Power of Myth" with Joseph Campbell, or watched any episodes of "NOW with Bill Moyers" before he retired, one realizes that to characterize Bill Moyers as ". . . an old, frustrated man and can't decide what he believes" is not only ridiculous, it's just plain silly.

I can see why there are those who would like to cut him down. He has "a dangerous gift of eloquence."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 12:04 AM

I didn't read the thread but I have read a lot of Moyers' writings. He is an ordained minister or reverend. He has really spelled it out when he writes of Bush and the GOP. If more Christians were like him, I might even find this religion palatable.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:55 AM

We need squares to run the subways, and Christians to
run the missing persons agency, answer the phone to the suicidal, visit the prisoner, care for the destitute, provide aid for third world, ......

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:12 AM

So, if I got this straight, Moyers words carry gravitas with some because he is a religious man ....... even though you don't care for religion?

Or is it that he condemns religion along with you and so when he says he's still "religious" you see that he's winking as he does so?

Or when he condemns the religious, he's only condemning everyone who doesn't believe in it as he does.........and you love him because of his tolerance and inclusiveness?

And though he doesn't share the religios beliefs as others do, still, he is accepted as the last word on what they claim to believe?

*BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: GUEST,G
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:17 AM

"He has a 'dangerous gift of eloquence'"

I could not agree more - the important part here is to keep in mind that "eloquence" I.e. 'forceful or persuasive expressiveness' does not imply that the truth is being exhibited. It is simply the method by which one's opinion is being told.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:20 AM

..........and I want to see a reply to the post of John Hardly.

John, you humble me but I will continue to learn. Thanks to you and several others here.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:59 AM

Betcha John Hardly didn't read the speech. John's too bright not to see the validity of the points Moyers makes.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 01:46 PM

It isn't just Moyers' eloquence. What pisses people off around here is that Moyers speaks the truth.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 01:52 PM

>>So, if I got this straight, Moyers words carry gravitas with some because he is a religious man ....... even though you don't care for religion?<<

Exactly. He is an example that religious and non-religious people alike can find common ground. I can't write what Moyers writes and be called anything but an atheist not to be taken seriously. When an ordained minister writes it, however, you have to take it seriously. To write him off is identical to not being able to answer his points which is identical to admitting he is right. And he is right.

>>Or is it that he condemns religion along with you and so when he says he's still "religious" you see that he's winking as he does so?<<

Nowhere does Moyers condemn religion. He condemns the way this adminstration and this GOP-controlled congress have abused religion to justify their policies. Look at how we are being held back as a nation by religious stupidity in the political area: killing stem-cell research, promoting pro-life agendas, anti-woman legislation, the dismissal of science simply by accusing it of being "godless" and demanding creationism be taught in public schools as though it were an acceptable replacement for science, etc.

Bush believes and has outright stated that he is involving the U.S. in the affairs of the Mideast because god wants him to. The instability of that region frightens normal people but delights abnormal people as fundie Christians because they see it as the fulfillment of Christian destiny and heralding the 2nd coming. Pile on top of that devastating hurricanes, tsunamis, influenzas, melting ice caps and earthquakes--all proof that the end-times are near and therefore something to be desired. Congress and Bush have no qualms about tapping into this lunatic fringe for money and votes. But it cannot be simply to get into office, they have to agree with the religious right on these issues--it could hardly be otherwise.

But under no circumstances does this mean that anyone who attacks this behavior of the GOP is attacking religion. It does mean, however, that I can find communication with Christians who understand the dangers of what our current govt is doing. It may not scare you but it scares the flying fuck out of me and I think the public--although mostly fundies at heart--is finding itself forced to put its money where its mouth is and finding its own heart failing it for fear and these people WILL vote out the GOP in November. They would love nothing more than to rub Bush's bullshit in the faces of people like me but are now realizing they are ignoring Bush at their own peril also. And that is scaring them into my camp whether they want to be there or not;) But don't blame me. I didn't force them.

>>Or when he condemns the religious, he's only condemning everyone who doesn't believe in it as he does.........and you love him because of his tolerance and inclusiveness?<<

I have no idea how tolerant or inclusive he is and I don't care. I respect and agree with his views that Bush and the GOP-controlled Congress are dangerously delusional and inexcusably ignorant of the consequences of their own amazingly irresponsible actions. And to justify it all with religion is totally unacceptable and it matters not if you are an atheist or an intelligent Christian.

>>And though he doesn't share the religios beliefs as others do, still, he is accepted as the last word on what they claim to believe?<<

Quite the contrary, he is accepted as a voice of reason. That he is an ordained minister only proves that not every Christian is a goddamned nutcase who should be shut away for their own good as well as the good of society. He represents to me that there is hope for the Christian religion (although I doubt it personally).

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 01:57 PM

Who's pissed off around here? (jeez, I love that underline function. It just puts such a nice emphasis on a line, while showing a respectable mastery of the code. Almost erudite. Why doesn't "erudite" rhyme with "Aphrodite"? .....I guess if I was erudite enough I'd know that.)

....where was I? Oh, yeah......

Who's pissed off around here? People around here love the guy. Heck, I'd bear his children if I could. He's just that damn cute. Alas, I'm beyond my child-bearing years.

And the reason people around here aren't "pissed off", rather, they like what he writes, is that he tells people here what they want to hear. In fact, it's too bad he's given up on religion -- he's got such potential as a cult leader.

*BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 02:10 PM

Everybody who is religious has their own particular understanding of it, John, and may well disagree with someone else's understanding of it. So? What is strange about that? And what is strange about a religious moderate (in any religion) condemning religious extremism?

This appears to be what Moyers is doing.

Do you feel that people should not condemn religious extremism? If so, why? After all, religious extremism is what led a bunch of Muslim hijackers to fly airplanes into buildings, isn't it? If it's leading other people into launching unnecessary wars upon false pretences, is it wrong to point that out?

Seems to me that Moyers is being even-handed, and he's pointing out that Big Money is the real force behind most of it, religion being just a handy PR device which Big Money uses to get people onside or make them appear legit in the eyes of the easily fooled.

All a neocon has to do to magically erase a life of irresponsibility and folly is publicly "get saved" by Jesus. Doesn't that sound like a handy Pr gimmick for the terminally dishonest to you?

(Not that I doubt that a person can be "saved"...meaning can have a fundamental change of heart...I just very much doubt that most of the guys on the political right claiming to have experienced that change really have done so, that's all.) ;-P

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 03:44 PM

A fairly well organized group of fundamentalist Christians are trying to take over this country and establish what amounts to a theocracy. They have grown powerful enough within recent years to be able to influence national elections—as we have seen recently. And as we have also seen, they are involved in local politics as well, most obviously lately in local school boards. trying to get their agenda (school prayer, "intelligent design," no sex-ed, etc.) taught in schools. Their war-cry is "America is a Christian country!" and they keep claiming that the Founding Fathers were all Christians when this is not the case at all. Some were, some weren't, and they took pains to establish a solid separation between the church and the state. Which, it apparently needs to be pointed out—yet again—was one of the major reasons many Europeans immigrated to this continent in the first place:    to escape religious oppression and persecution.

This attempt to turn this country into a theocracy is obvious to anyone who simply pays attention to the news. To keep denying that this is exactly what is being attempted is a bit ridiculous, because many prominent Christian fundamentalists have said so, in so many words. Those who deny this must either be blind to what's been happening, or be in on the effort and trying to divert attention so it can go forward unimpeded.

Bill Moyers is only one of a growing number of liberal Christians who are trying to stop this dangerous trend. Another is former president Jimmy Carter, whose own Baptist church withdrew from the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference when it started dictating dogma and political positions to its member churches (arrogating to itself the position of a sort of "Baptist Vatican") in direct violation of long-established Baptist beliefs. Yet another is the Rev. Jim Wallis, author of God's Politics : Why The Right Gets It Wrong and The Left Doesn't Get It, editor of Sojourners Magazine, and writer of many articles such as "Dangerous Politics," in which he exposes the Bush administration's attempts to regulate morals and get religiously based Constitutional amendments passed. Still another is retired Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong, also author of many books including Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism : A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture.

I could supply a whole bibliography of books and articles of this kind, written by people who are right in the middle of it and are in a position to know.

You can't just dismiss Bill Moyers. But he is only one voice among many liberal and progressive Christians who have had it with the Fundies claiming o speak for all Christians and who are no longer going to allow them to do it without voicing some very loud protests. These people are very tolerant of other viewpoints and it takes a lot to get them riled up, but they finally are!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 04:02 PM

Hey, it already IS a money-ocracy, so why not stamp the money with the authority of God?

Oh...I forgot...they already did that, didn't they? ;-D

Funny, in Jesus' day it was the other way around...he said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" (the money...had Caesar's name and face on it).

American money, on the other hand, has the holy authority on it because it IS the ruling god of the American $y$tem. The rest is just PR. Count on it. God loves the rich, right? They wouldn't be rich if he didn't, right? That's why they ARE rich, because they love God and God loves them, right? (extreme satire)

That is in direct contradication of Jesus' actual teachings. He threw the moneylenders out of the temple. Who will throw them out of Congress? Who will throw them out of the election process? Who will throw them out of the boardrooms that plan illegal wars and hostile takeovers?

Who can afford to?

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:10 PM

Indeed, Little Hawk.

But the bind is, can we afford not to?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:56 PM

The money has the word God on it, Little Hawk, but its actual authority comes from that weird pyramid with the shining eyeball on the top, which says underneath it, "Novus Ordo Secularum". "A New Order for the Ages".

The new order referred to is NOT theocracy, which had already been tried and failed miserably when this idea for a motto was borrowed from Virgil by Charles Thompson in designing the Great Seal in 1782.

It was government from liberty, an unheard of concept except for a few inklings in the Magna Carta.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 06:17 PM

John Hardly, would it be fair to say that, from your viewpoint, fundamentalists are the only genuine Christians? If so, I can at least comprehend your position a little easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 06:34 PM

No, frogprince, It is that Moyers empowers himself by feeding people's need for a boogeyman/polical enemy by mischaracterizing a type of Christianity that he neither believes in, nor understands, and making that splinter of Christianity (now mis-defined) seem omnipotent.

He empowers himself thus, and then, with little boy innocence and PBS/NPR arrogance says "who? ...ME?".

I would actually agree with the first few paragraphs -- before he, rather than dazzle with brilliance and insight, chose to obfuscate with misdirection and a flood of data which few sane people would take the time to address point by point. Debate by volume.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 06:41 PM

Yes, I know, Amos. Masonic symbols. Interesting stuff indeed, but that's another whole discussion, I think.

I don't frankly think that liberty was precisely what they had in mind. I think they had a new order in mind though, and they are pursuing it on a world basis now, not just in the 13 colonies. It is an order which will extinguish liberty, not promote it, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 07:02 PM

Well, John, you feel he misunderstands and misrepresents that faction of Christianity. I spent some years as a part of that faction, and more years rubbing up against it more than I wanted to. I still read some direct quotes from that faction in the papers, and sometimes pause if I see some of the spokesmen for it when channel surfing. My own opinion is that Moyers is quite accurate. He does not (as we both realize) consider these people "omnipotent", but I agree with his contention that they pose a significant danger.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 07:07 PM

>>>No, frogprince, It is that Moyers empowers himself by feeding people's need for a boogeyman/polical enemy by mischaracterizing a type of Christianity that he neither believes in, nor understands, and making that splinter of Christianity (now mis-defined) seem omnipotent.<<<

That sounds a lot more like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell or Fred Phelps. It is, in fact, a bizarre claim that Moyers somehow tricks people into believing in a political enemy of his choosing. And who is this boogeyman? How is he mischaracterizing a type of Christianity he does not believe in unless you believe in it yourself?

>>>He empowers himself thus, and then, with little boy innocence and PBS/NPR arrogance says "who? ...ME?".<<<

He empowers himself by directing people to hate a group of his arbitrary choosing. Could you explain exactly HOW he goes about achieving this remarkable feat? Please explain this empowerment principle he employs so gainfully? Who is his flock and what do they donate to him? What voting block does he command?

>>>I would actually agree with the first few paragraphs -- before he, rather than dazzle with brilliance and insight, chose to obfuscate with misdirection and a flood of data which few sane people would take the time to address point by point. Debate by volume.<<

IOW, you can't address the issues he wrote about so you just dismiss it as something "few sane people would take the time to address point by point". Try.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 07:30 PM

Well, frogprince, you're certainly entitled to your opinion -- an opinion borne of experience. You must have found something distasteful enough in it to have separated yourself from it. Too bad, but understandable.

They are my friends and family -- the people I grew up with. Oh, not particularly (what I would call) extreme ones -- we didn't handle snakes or have healing services or speak in tongues. We mostly read C.S.Lewis and Tolkien and dry theological stuff -- were forced to memorize Westminister Shorter Catechism and lotsa Bible chapters at our summer Bible schools (while the liberal kids got to spend their time doing crafts -- I got even -- I make my living as a potter).

I don't like 'em all. Don't hate 'em all. Don't even see them as terribly monolithic. If there's ANYTHING we do well as a group, it is disagree with each other. One thing I can assure you though -- of the ones I am most familiar -- they don't feel empowered by the current government. They mostly feel taken advantage of. At this point more than a little embarrassed at the extent to which they've been betrayed.

When you vote for the lesser of two evils and get burned, who do you have to rub your nose in it? We have Moyers.

To the extent that "fundementalist" Christianity feels betrayed by the political right, Moyers doesn't "get it". When it is convenient to play to your fears he writes as though the fundamentalist Christian is the horse before the right wing political cart. He scores big because he plays to a crowd that is quite happy to hear the tales of the sheep-humping fundamentalist they believe to be the case (and WANT to fear in order to justify their hatred).

But he can turn on a dime and put that cart before the horse as well -- all the while still maintaining that picture of a truly detestable Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 08:21 PM

The results of a recent survey (sorry, no source) suggests that people from the states consider themselves religious while Canadians consider themselves spiritual. In additon, people from the states were more likely to try to convert others.

I bring this up because I think there is a great deal of confusion about the terms people are using to defend their faith. I am not Christian nor am I religious. I am, however, spiritual. That is, I no longer listen to the dogma but continue to have a belief system.

I think Moyers is right! Nobody has to denounce their religion but its time to start questioning the messages you are getting from the "church fathers". DeLay, Abramoff and Reed were involved in corruption that spread far and wide. They got away with it for a long time because people wanted to believe that they were righteous. Its time to take a closer look at the workings of your church.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:06 PM

Little Hawk, the new order envisioned by the Founding Fathers between 1776 and 1782 had nothing to do with the vision set forth for the New American Order much more recently--the "they" that appear to be pursuing a world ordered by large business organizations, and military imperilaism, is a very different world indeed than the one hoped for by Franklin, Paine, Jefferson, Adams, and the like. An inversion of it, I would say.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:21 PM

Corruption and power-grabbing started in the Christian church even before the execution of Jesus. It's been a part of the church and its religious leaders since the very beginning. Within a couple of decades there were eighty-two different bishops, each claiming to be a direct descendant of one of the original twelve apostles, and they were excommunication each other right and left over essentially nit-picking differences in belief. An integral part of most of the various factions in the early church were the efforts to attain secular power so they could force their particular brand of belief on the others. One major faction finally got it when the Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity (some claim for political rather than spiritual reasons) and gave religious dogma (his version of it) the force of secular law. He was largely responsible for ramming through the Nicene Creed, which many Christian churches subscribe to to this day.

What Jesus taught got forgotten very early on.

How many churches spend more time reading Paul's epistles and The Book of Revelation than they do the actual teachings of Jesus as outlined in the Gospels? Many Christian sects are more "Paulist" than they are Christian.

Throughout its history, the institution of the church (but not necessarily many individual Christians) has had more to do with power and control than it has with religion and spirituality. And the beat goes on!

For a Christian to object to a particular faction of Christian churches making yet another grab for political power doesn't mean he or she is less of a Christian. It probably means that they are more of a Christian.

I'm with Bill Moyers, not because he has swayed my opinion, but because I agreed with what he said before I even heard him say it. And he is in a position to speak for me and for those who believe as I do.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:25 PM

"Corruption and power-grabbing started in the Christian church even before the execution of Jesus."

um......

.....nevermind.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:33 PM

Bickering between the apostles, John. Read your Gospels. And the Book of Acts. It's in there.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:38 PM

(they weren't "Christian" yet)

"...And the Book of Acts."

That was post execution.

Get pedantic with me and I'll serve it right back to you. But mine will be served on much nicer dinnerware. I hold the advantage of working in clay.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:58 PM

"Corruption and power-grabbing started in the Christian church even before the execution of Jesus."


WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!! Say what, Don??????   ;-)

There WAS no Christian church until some time after the execution of Jesus. There was a Jewish church...and he and his disciples were attempting to reform it. Their attempt was categorically rejected, so they eventually (well after his death) set about establishing a new church which came to be called "Christian".

Now, if you are saying that the Jewish church of Jesus' time had corruption...well, yeah! And if you're saying that the later Christian Church of Rome and Byzantium had corruption...well, yeah!

Power structures do tend to corrupt people, don't they? That's why you find much corruption in the US government, for example, and the Russian government, and most governments...quite apart from the religious issues. You hardly need religion for corruption to thrive... (grin)

To characterize an entire field of human belief and endeavour as corrupt, however, merely because some of it is corrupt is to adopt a position based not on constructive thought, but on rank prejudice.

I believe that is the point that some of the people on this thread are trying to make when they point out that blanket attacks ON religion are as stupid as blanket fundamentalist attacks on various other things which might be termed "liberal" ideas or practices.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:59 PM

Pedantic, schmedantic.

The apostles were quarreling among themselves before the crucifixion. And it continued afterward, as detailed in the Acts of the Apostles. But that was minor stuff compared to what followed.

Don't complain to me. Read.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 10:16 PM

"The apostles were quarreling among themselves before the crucifixion. And it continued afterward, as detailed in the Acts of the Apostles. But that was minor stuff compared to what followed."

Absolutely, Don. You are so right about that. And so what?

I am very impressed by the general teachings of the man Jesus. I am far less impressed by the bickering collection of fellows who followed him around, jockeyed for power against one another, then ran out on him when he was arrested, then changed their minds and launched a new religion in his name afterward.

I see them as a mixed lot. I do not regard their words as unimpeachable. I do not regard the Bible as the one and only illuminating source on the matter (Good God! Far from it...).

That does not prevent me from seeing that people who attack "religion" as though it were one monolithic, awful thing are as foolish and deeply prejudiced in their thinking as the religious fundamentalists whom they despise. In fact, they're just like them...only wearing the uniform of the opposing team, that's all.

It's intolerance, unfounded contempt, lack of any willingness to investigate new ideas, and dogmatic inflexibility on both sides of that great divide that obfuscates useful dialogue about "religion" or spirituality with most people. Most people are rigidly partisan when it comes to "religion". Their depth of prejudice is unfathomable.

As Dianavan pointed out, spirituality has far more to do with individual belief and philosophy than it does to do with any church or tradition or holy book. Spirituality can usually find much worth in all religious traditions, not just the one a person happened to be born into.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 10:35 PM

As far as "people who attack 'religion' as though it were one monolithic, awful thing," a careful reading of what I've been saying will amply establish that I don't qualify there. I just want to be abundantly clear on that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 10:44 PM

Okay, Don, that's good. I didn't necessarily think you did look at it that way. I am just discussing something that concerns me here, that's all. I find it hard discussing religion with many people, because they are simply not prepared to think outside their own particular little box...whichever little box that might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 06 - 05:33 AM

Don,
In Anglican communion services there may be a psalm, one reading from old or new testament usually by a lay member of congregation, then all stand for a gospel reading by the priest, who then usually bases his sermon on that reading.
Paul's epistles and John's revelations are not predominant.

Subject: RE: BS: Time for Heresy- Bill Moyers
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 May 06 - 12:37 PM

Keith, I'm amazed at the number of churches in which the first reading is from the Old Testament and the New Testament reading, which used to be from one of the Gospels, is from one of Paul's epistles.

Not in the church I go to, however (Central Lutheran in Seattle). Gospel reading every Sunday, upon which the sermon is usually based.

Don Firth