concertina tuning help

Subject: concertina tuning help
From: Musicman
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 12:28 PM

I have a 90+ year old Wheatstone concertina which is badly in need of tuning to concert pitch. The instrument is in tune with itself but about 1/4 of a tone high! Makes it very difficult to playhn and Karol [e-mail] ö!Î à!Î €Ô
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Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: jets
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 06:13 PM

Call " The Button Box" in Amherst MA tel.[phone]

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: Musicman
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 06:28 PM

I called the Button Box, they wanted $350+ for tuning, I think that's a bit high from what i've heard. Also I don't feel like shipping it that far.

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 08:23 PM

is there a possibility that this page might help??

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From:
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 08:37 PM

Lark in the Morning sells a video called "How to Repair Your Diatonic Accordion or Concertina", that is the best $40 investment I've ever made. I've saved hundreds in repair costs, and my wife has become a first-class free reed instrument repair person (sorry fellows, she's already taken). Lark in the Morning is at http:www.larkinam.com/ follow the links to the video section. Good luck.

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From:
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 08:37 PM

I have just been going through a similar thing with my ancient piano. The tuners/repairmen extimate a very high price because they say they expect to have to make a lot of repairs along the way.

In that light, and in light of what I am about to say, perhaps $350+ is not so high.

I played around with tuning a harmonium which operates on the same principle. It was tedious! One way is to replace all the reeds; but I couldn't get/afford the reeds. To lower the pitch you have to add material to the reeds (I used solder which sticks very well to brass reeds) until the pitch is a little low, and then sand away the excess until you are at the righ pitch. If you sand too much, then you put more solder on and... When you are sanding down the solder, you have to sand a little bit, test the pitch, and then sand some more. To change the pitch of the instrument you would have to do this with every reed!! I assume a concertina would be the same.

I have since read that you can lower the pitch by sanding down the end that doesn't vibrate. If so, that might be a little less work.

Murray

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: Mike Billo
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 08:39 PM

As i said in my previous post. Try buying the video. It will come in handy next time repaires are needed

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: GUy Wolff
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 09:35 PM

HI,please think seriuosly about the Button box.$350.00 is not alot of money next to a realy broken instroment and old wheatstones are hard enough to come by.Even with putting your box thruogh the mail it will be safer then practicing on a beautifull antique instroment and they are very good and committed in Amherst.If the $ is an issue how abouy waiting till you can afford doing it right. Good luck on any account Guy....

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: gargoyle
Date: 13 Feb 99 - 11:56 PM

To Murray:

It took several years,(5+) and multiple progressive tunings, and a few broken strings, for my Cable-Nelson UpRight Grand, circa 1890's to come into a stable pitch. It was well worth it....

However, I would never equate its process with that of a "reed-toned" concertina. A single piano tuning is the price of what I paid for a used button-box....certainly not a "classic...."but a nice "toy."

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From:
Date: 14 Feb 99 - 10:49 PM

Yes, gargoyle. I am thinking of going ahead with the repairs and tuning.

Murray

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: mountain tyme
Date: 15 Feb 99 - 05:39 AM

Just a thought....if the box is in tune with itself...why retune it? Use it as its unique self. How could a box get "out of tune" and still be "in tune"? With steel reeds rust will lower the tone a hair on a single reed but not all the reeds will "re tune" in sync with each other. If you were to dedicate this box to Cajun style music the 1/4 tone difference would be a charming addition to the "pure" group sound of those in "concert pitch". My "gee flat" box just draws admiring smiles and works the fiddler a little harder. The folks still dance! :-)

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: Musicman
Date: 16 Feb 99 - 03:35 AM

But to play with any others would hurt too much!!

(the ears, that is!)

I was talking to a fellow in Ontario who is going to tune it for me, saying that the higher pitch is an old concert pitch. Interesting.

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: Bev Lawton
Date: 16 Feb 99 - 08:16 AM

Well as an original Wheatstone Concertina can be woth anything from 1500 - 2500 UK POUNDS STERLING I think you should consider VERY carefully before attempting any amateur repairs.

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 17 Feb 99 - 01:34 AM

G'day Musicman,

If the whole instrument is consistently about ¬ tone high it is very likely the original pitch. Concert pitch has been up and down over the years and I have a c. 1930s Wheatstone catalogue where they offer a choice of 5 different concert pitches (something like: Philharmonic, Old Philharmonic, Continental, New Concert Pitch and "Common Pitch" - just in tune with itself ... usuually on bottom line anglos).

Many of these old pitches were higher than current A = 440 Hz and free reed repairers, here in Australia, often refer to them generically as "Old High Pitch" , so Mountain Tyme 's question "How could a box get "out of tune" and still be "in tune"?" is answered that it didn't; it was made that way.

Murray's methods of retuning are both valid, but not for the fainthearted. A dab of solder is only needed when a radical drop in pitch is needed and lightly filing the bottom end will lower pitch but any variation will alter the tonality, the balance of harmonics across the reed, and it may not be for the better! What is needed is a very smooth reduction of material that does not weaken the reed and does not concentrate vibrations in one area.

I have had radical (key) changes wrought in Anglos, but by (or in consultation with) an expert repairer and maker, Richard Evans, in the Blue Mountains, west of Sydney. One box re-pitched in D/G had a magnificent tone for such a low pitch, unfortunately it was subsequently stolen... I have since built up another D/G, without the benefit of Richard's hand-made new reeds, and it is quite nice, but not in the league of the stolen one (gently sobs in the background ...).

All this may not help Musicman ... I'm inclined to think that a full disassembly (and inevitable general checkup and minor clean and make good) plus work on 96 separate reeds, if the instrument is an English System - or even 70 to 80 reeds if it is a full-blown Anglo-chromatic, is probably worth $350. Certainly, running the risk of wrecking a classic instrument isn't worth the saving.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: Musicman
Date: 17 Feb 99 - 03:26 AM

Thanks for the info, Bob.

Actually, I've found someone who is recommended to do the retuning. Yes, he mentioned that the instrument would be in an older concert pitch. He is able to do the tuning at a good price, and comes recommended by some other people I trust concerning concertina's. He is in Ontario, which, at least is still in Canada!

Yes, Bev, it is an original Wheatstone, 48 key, treble, in the original box! It is a family heirloom, and I know that it came from England about 1906 with my grandfather's father in law. Unfortunately, there is no serial number to get an accurate date, However, Frank, the fellow who will tune it, seem to think that, from it's description, it is one of the better made instruments, and it is in great shape.

I would NEVER consider doing the work myself. I know enough about these things to get myself into trouble!

THanks for your help and advice.

Musicman

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 17 Feb 99 - 04:28 PM

G'day Musicman,

Glad to hear you have a trustworthy (reasonably) local concertina tweaker. These are treasures to be carefully cultivated!

One another note, although you say there is no serial number, this is presumably no number visible on the outside. There should be serial numbers inside and your repairman will see them during the re-tuning. If you don't mind passing on such information, I would be interested to know the serial number (or close range) plus any dating information you have on a family instrument.

All Wheatstone records were destroyed by German bombing during WW2 and (although some older records have turned up from various Wheatstone workers) it is difficult to develop a dating sequence without more confirmed date/serial number sets.

If you don't want to have your serial number visible in public, I can be contacted on my email or via my personal page, here on Mudcat.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: concertina tuning help
From: Musicman
Date: 18 Feb 99 - 02:58 AM

Actually Bob, i have had the instrument apart looking for such an animal, alas, not to be found. The only numbers stamped on the instrument are part numbers that I am told corespond to this particular instrument to make sure that all the parts went to the right instrument. Other than that, no other identifying features. I am told however that the instrument can be given approximate dating by the nature of the buttons, bellows and wood used in it's making. I am hoping that Frank will shed some light on this for me. I will let you know if we find anything out.

I do have in my posession three original concertina tutor books. Two Salvation ARmy, one dated 1924, full size book, the second not dated but by the writing style, it is of similar or older vintage, both in good condition, and another called "Turner's Popular Tutor for the English concertina", compiled and arranged by Havelock & Mason.

Very interesting books.