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BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!

Anonny Mouse 27 Apr 06 - 03:30 PM
Sorcha 27 Apr 06 - 03:40 PM
Anonny Mouse 27 Apr 06 - 04:13 PM
gnu 27 Apr 06 - 04:17 PM
number 6 27 Apr 06 - 04:20 PM
beardedbruce 27 Apr 06 - 04:38 PM
Anonny Mouse 27 Apr 06 - 11:41 PM
Rapparee 27 Apr 06 - 11:41 PM
robomatic 27 Apr 06 - 11:44 PM
Bobert 27 Apr 06 - 11:48 PM
Stilly River Sage 28 Apr 06 - 12:56 AM
Metchosin 28 Apr 06 - 01:16 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Apr 06 - 01:47 AM
dianavan 28 Apr 06 - 02:02 AM
Bev and Jerry 28 Apr 06 - 02:05 AM
GUEST,Dazbo 28 Apr 06 - 11:16 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Apr 06 - 11:20 AM
GUEST 28 Apr 06 - 11:38 AM
Bill D 28 Apr 06 - 11:39 AM
Anonny Mouse 28 Apr 06 - 11:50 AM
CarolC 28 Apr 06 - 11:56 AM
Rapparee 28 Apr 06 - 11:58 AM
Rapparee 28 Apr 06 - 12:06 PM
Bill D 28 Apr 06 - 12:09 PM
Bill D 28 Apr 06 - 12:28 PM
Stringsinger 28 Apr 06 - 12:35 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 06 - 01:38 PM
Anonny Mouse 28 Apr 06 - 02:22 PM
gnu 28 Apr 06 - 02:47 PM
Bunnahabhain 28 Apr 06 - 02:48 PM
katlaughing 28 Apr 06 - 02:58 PM
Anonny Mouse 28 Apr 06 - 04:27 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 06 - 04:59 PM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 06 - 05:02 PM
CarolC 28 Apr 06 - 05:11 PM
Once Famous 28 Apr 06 - 05:13 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 06 - 05:15 PM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 06 - 05:17 PM
bobad 28 Apr 06 - 05:26 PM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 06 - 05:27 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 06 - 05:57 PM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 06 - 06:02 PM
TheBigPinkLad 28 Apr 06 - 06:45 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 06 - 08:25 PM
gnu 28 Apr 06 - 08:25 PM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 06 - 08:39 PM
CarolC 28 Apr 06 - 09:05 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 06 - 09:28 PM
Bobert 28 Apr 06 - 09:34 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 06 - 09:54 PM
Anonny Mouse 28 Apr 06 - 10:32 PM
GUEST 29 Apr 06 - 12:18 AM
CarolC 29 Apr 06 - 01:56 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Apr 06 - 03:10 AM
GUEST,AR282 29 Apr 06 - 10:33 AM
Bill D 29 Apr 06 - 11:00 AM
Metchosin 29 Apr 06 - 12:21 PM
dianavan 29 Apr 06 - 12:56 PM
Alice 30 Apr 06 - 09:37 AM
number 6 30 Apr 06 - 09:49 AM
Anonny Mouse 30 Apr 06 - 01:18 PM
Ebbie 30 Apr 06 - 01:25 PM
GUEST 30 Apr 06 - 01:51 PM
Ebbie 30 Apr 06 - 01:59 PM
Don Firth 30 Apr 06 - 04:59 PM
pdq 30 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM
Ron Davies 30 Apr 06 - 11:20 PM
GUEST 30 Apr 06 - 11:39 PM
CarolC 30 Apr 06 - 11:41 PM
Teribus 01 May 06 - 04:57 AM
LilyFestre 01 May 06 - 07:45 AM
autolycus 01 May 06 - 08:29 AM
Chief Chaos 01 May 06 - 01:01 PM
Don Firth 01 May 06 - 02:47 PM
Sorcha 01 May 06 - 02:58 PM
robomatic 01 May 06 - 04:33 PM
Don Firth 01 May 06 - 08:42 PM
Ron Davies 02 May 06 - 12:01 AM
Anonny Mouse 02 May 06 - 02:23 PM
Chief Chaos 02 May 06 - 03:20 PM
LilyFestre 02 May 06 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,Boss Hog 03 May 06 - 01:28 PM
autolycus 03 May 06 - 03:00 PM
Anonny Mouse 03 May 06 - 03:42 PM
bobad 06 May 06 - 08:12 AM
Ron Davies 06 May 06 - 08:20 AM
Ebbie 06 May 06 - 10:26 PM
autolycus 07 May 06 - 02:36 PM
podman 07 May 06 - 02:36 PM
Ebbie 07 May 06 - 02:48 PM

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Subject: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 03:30 PM

OK--I've HAD it with all this drilling for oil, no-oil, 75.00 a barrel oil, outrageous gas prices CRAP. I don't care WHAT anyone says about the cost of living index in 1973--Even at my meager income, the proportion that went to fill my tank with gas was NOT what it is today.

Drill the dang ANWR now (Arctic National Wildlife Refuge). Yeah, Bullwinkle and Rocky may have to move a mile or so. Do you KNOW how much actual LAND is involved in drilling a well, and making it functional? It isn't what all the treeghuggers would have you believe.

Is the answer letting the nut-job asswipe running Iran dictate the oil market? the Stock Market? The local Exxon/Mobil station's prices? Well-he IS! I feel like "Network"--"we won't take it anymore!!!". Don't give me that jingoistic argument of what they pay in Europe. They also pay $5.00 for a Big Mac, and $88.00 for Levis' jeans. Yeah--lets all base our economy on that!

Fact it, we have more oil reserves than anyone knows. Until cars like the Prius, and othe Hybrids are the RULE rather than the exception, this getting us by the shorthairs in the middle east is simply unacceptable.

We ARE conserving, dammit! We DO have less polluting, less gas hogging cars!! We DON'T emulate petrolium pigs. Get the freakin oil we need from OUR OWN resources, and tell the Emirs, Dictators, Islamic-radical assholes to shove it! Oh yeah, I just filled a Mazda 4-Cylander "6" with $32.00 worth of gas for a freakin' $3.27 a gallon. It has a whopping 12 or so gallon tank. I'm MAD AS HELL, AND I WON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 03:40 PM

Well...yes, I do...and it's not the actual RIG that is all of it...it's the roads, the human activity....why, just why do you think HUMANS are more important than Rocky and Bullwinkle, and irreplaceable habitat?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 04:13 PM

Sorry--but IMHO they ARE. Geez--you don't see threads about the many miscarriages in Moose, or squirrels--which have become plague spreaders (they are nothing but cute, longtailed RATS!!!). Get with it. So--you think all of this should be precious, untouched, what...wilderness? There will still be PLENTY of that (last I read about 95-versus 5%). So Sorcha, c'mon. You have any kids? I do! I can barely figure out how to send them to college without bankrupting my wife and me. Is OIL a part of that?? You bet yer damn life it is!

Let me tell you this: I worked for the National Parks Dept., EPA, and many other well-intentioned Environmental firms (even one that sent me to Saudi Arabia 3 years ago because of data needed for the continuing pollution of air and water from that asshole Hussein, who set the wells on fire. Think that is ancient history? It ISN'T!!). Hussein did more to pollute the world's air than 500 oil wells in ANWR. I was involved in the uploading of data to Saudi computer experts on what was and wasn't "safe" yet--believe me--you won't read it in the papers--but the problem still exists!)

I digress: drilling in ANWR, if properly done (which it WOULD BE) by those who are far more evironmentally estute than the idiots you will read treatises from!) will only serve to be a stop-gap between an oil-based, and electronic based transportation system. I say DRILL NOW...and as for Bullwinkel, he will SURVIVE and then some. We're only talking of less than 100 square miles. You realize how MUCh is up there??? Millions. Get real, Sorcha. You are ill-informed.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 04:17 PM

Yes, very little habitat is involved. However, the problem... the real problem... still exists. When humans make mistakes, as they have sometimes been known to do, the "very little" turns into a shitload.

Chernobyl? James Bay? Valdez?...

Wind and solar, used to produce H, used in solid cells, is expensive, with one exception... it is almost completely environmentally friendly. Now... what costs more? over the life cycle?

Capitalist versus communist economics? You bet.... and, you'd better vote in the next election. Otherwise, she'll be comin round the mountain again, rather than tunneling through it, right up yer kilt.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: number 6
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 04:20 PM

ETHANOL Petroleum .. NOW!

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 04:38 PM

"Wind and solar, used to produce H, used in solid cells, is expensive, with one exception... it is almost completely environmentally friendly."

Well, SOLAR is not ( currently) environmentally friendly to PRODUCE. I agree the production of ENERGY is, but the production of solar panals and cells are NOT. Look at the whole life-cycle: Production, operation, and End-of-life disposal.

Now, geothermal and tidal, on the other hand... but who wants to give up their beaches?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 11:41 PM

Well--I was on quite a toot earlier. I guess it was pulling in my garage in my mostly environmentally friendly 4 cyl Mazda (which is a lease). I'm out of the whole ecological circuit right now--moved on (and away). Part of it was STRESS, and the buerocratic nighmare that is part of being a decent conservationist. But I digress.

Beardedbruce's post above is a great example of the vicious circles the energy industry finds itself caught up in. Interestingly enough (to me at least) is the fact that about 50% of the price of per-barrel oil is dictated by speculators...not supply and demand. What one has to hope for is that like the speculators who pushed dot coms waaaaaay beyond actual value will be having the same effect on the oil market. The big joke is that the market could be so overvalued right now, it could crash, and we'd drop back to a barrel being in the $30.00 range.

Meanwhile, the downside would be that the momentum toward hybrid vehicles, ethanol, wind and solar technologies will again be unattractive. Like Rosanne Rosannadanna said--"well, it just goes to show you it's always SOMETHING."


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 11:41 PM

I will give up my beaches. Of course, Idaho is pretty danged landlocked.

Let's say the powers that be said, "Drill the ANWR." Man, it would be three to five YEARS before the first barrel was produced if they started drilling this very minute.

You want oil? Why not develop the oil shales the US has? We could have oil flowing within 18 months to two years -- closer than the ANWR because the oil shales are all over the American west.

Know where most of the oil from the North Slope went, by the way? Japan. Like the wood from the Tongass forest did and does. And that's because Japan is closer to Alaska than the rest of the US is!

China is buying oil, lots of oil. So is India. It's what's known as "free market economics" and much beloved by business.

And I just paid US $33.00 to fill up my wife's car....

I think the message is that we will have to learn to adapt, to live with it....


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 11:44 PM

We've had some good ANWR related threads already. Briefly put, ANWR presents little by way of danger to actual animal populations. Developing ANWR represents a loss of pristine habitat. It is not a great deal of territory per se, but it will never be the same.

ANWR represents a significant potential resource from a point of view of absolute dollars. From a percentage point of view of how much fuel the United States consumes, it is not going to change any geopolitical relationships, unless the United States makes a forthright commitment to CONSERVATION.

The strongest reasons to develop ANWR now is that the environmental lobby is still quite strong and can negotiate some developmental safeguards. Also the infrastructure already in the far north is not getting any younger.

If ANWR is developed as part of a coherent unified energy policy which recognizes the increasing cost to the United States both in terms of money and in terms of dependence, then IMO it's potentially worth it. If the attitude is "Hey, it's costing too much to refill my HUMMER", the development of ANWR will achieve very very little.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 11:48 PM

Well, well, well...

15,000 barrels a day from ANWR compared to the millions of barrels a day thaat we burn????

Do the math, Mousey....

How do you spell "red herring"???


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 12:56 AM

Bobert is correct, A. Mouse, you've bought the party line. ANWR isn't going to take the pain out of your pocketbook at the gas pump any time soon, and probably never. The type of oil, the cost to produce it, the time it takes to develop that field, all work against you.

This came out just over a year ago, and some might find it useful. In reading about research in the area, there are already wells in the surrounding area but they are "tight holes," meaning the owners are keeping the information about their output completely secret.


    FACTBOX-Key Facts About ANWR's Land, Oil, Wildlife
    link
    Reuters, USA: March 17, 2005

    WASHINGTON - The US Senate on Wednesday approved a Republican plan to allow drilling in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR). The drilling measure, attached to the Senate's version of a federal government budget resolution, still faces opposition from Democrats and several legislative hurdles before it could become law.

    The following are key facts about ANWR:

    LAND
    Encompasses 19.6 million acres in northeastern Alaska that includes the Brooks Mountain Range with peaks over 9,000 feet high, lakes, rivers and a rock mesa. Within the refuge, 8 million acres are designated as federal wilderness. The entire refuge lies north of the Arctic Circle and is about the size of the state of South Carolina. About 90,000 acres within ANWR and adjacent to its coastal plain is owned by the Kaktovik Inupiat Corp., a native tribe of about 220 residents.

    WILDLIFE
    Home to 45 types of land and marine mammals including the bowhead whale, polar and grizzly bears and moose. ANWR's coastal plain is used as a nursery by caribou in the summer months and by polar bears in the autumn. Some 180 species of birds have been observed in the refuge, including migratory birds such as Dunlins from China, Buff-breasted Sandpipers from Argentina and Tundra Swans from Maryland.

    OIL POTENTIAL
    The Interior Department and the US Geological Survey believe the best geologic prospects for a major oil discovery are in ANWR's coastal plain, located about 100 miles east of Alaska's Prudhoe Bay.

    The government estimates up to 16 billion barrels of oil in ANWR are technically recoverable, although much of that would be too expensive to produce at today's prices. With prices were at or above $35 a barrel, energy companies could economically recover an estimated 6 billion barrels of oil from ANWR.

    The oil estimates are based on seismic surveys, aerial surveys and geological investigations. No exploratory drilling has been allowed in ANWR except for one well in the winter of 1984-85 on land owned by the Kaktovik Inupiat Corp.

    If leasing is permitted on ANWR and commercial exploration and development begins, it could take up to 12 years before any oil reaches the market, according to government and industry estimates. [my emphasis]


SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 01:16 AM

I don't know about giving up beaches, but I can think of many hundreds of fjords along this coast that I'd gladly give over to hundreds and hundreds of underwater "wind" mills, than see one single Exon Valdes sail past.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 01:47 AM

Let's try to have a future worth having, eh? Why do Americans or at least some of them seem to think they have a god-given right to the cheapest petrol and the biggest cars in the civilised world - and fail to connect that to global warming and coastal drowning?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 02:02 AM

A. Mouse - "I can barely figure out how to send them to college without bankrupting my wife and me."

Join the club. We all wonder how our children will be able to attend college or university. I don't think you can blame that on the caribou or the Gwich'in people.

The caribou use that land as their calving grounds! Thats like closing your local hospital and telling pregnant women to find another place to give birth. Robo says, "ANWR presents little by way of danger to actual animal populations," but I have yet to see any proof of that.

Drilling for oil in that region will also strike at the heart of the Gwich'in people. Cultural genocide is not a pretty sight. Do you really think your children's education is more important than the survival of people who depend on a healthy caribou herd?

What makes what you want, more important than what they need?

Your economic woes pale in comparison.

Besides that, what makes you think that drilling in ANWAR will solve any of your problems? Its doubtful if any of that oil will ever reach U.S. markets. Even if it did, by the time it got there, the price would be much more than it is today.

"Emirs, Dictators, Islamic-radical assholes," presidents, CEO's, prime ministers and premiers, etc., do not give a rat's ass about you or your kids. You have no control over the price of oil and never will. The only thing you can control is your reaction to their policies.

The only way to free yourself from your dependency is to find an alternative. The best alternative I have been able to find is to work for a greener, sustainable future. Don't blame it on the caribou or the Gwich'in people. They were here long before you and your greed. What makes you so important?

Tell your kids to get a job and pay their own way through university. Thats more opportunity than most kids have. Get real! Why should others have to subsidize you and your family?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 02:05 AM

Here is more than you ever wanted to know about this subject. It's from the latest issue of National Geographic. Be sure to look at the "photo gallery" and the "interactive map" links in the upper left corner. The map takes forever to download so be patient.

Both the map and the photos are much more impressive in print so get the actual magazine if you can.

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:16 AM

3.27 a (US) gallon. I make that about 90cents a litre. which is about 53 GB pence a litre. Which is about 40 pence a litre (i.e. about 68 cents) less than we have to pay.   STOP MOAINING AND PAY UP!


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:20 AM

drilling in ANWAR would make some money for US oil companies, but it will make no measurable difference to US prices or supply.

Now if 50% of the 15 MPG SUV's were traded for 25 MPG minivans....


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:38 AM

as said above, it would take several years to GET oil from ANWR, and then that supply would only be a partial help for few more years....all the while taking chances with environmental damage..etc.

Brazil is 'almost' self-sufficient now, using ethanol, because they started years ago. A serious effort along those lines would help us....and some oil shale mining might help, although the mess it makes would be quite a concern.

Wind power, tidal power...etc. should also be investigated, and research on alternative powers sources for cars MUST be accelerated.

We can deal with SOME of the problems, but make no mistake. life is gonna change for us...and especially for our kids! We will NOT be able to blow down the highway at 70MPH in SUVs and tour all summer in 40 foot motor homes forever!

Remember, China has this notion that IT will achieve the same level of life-style that we have taken for granted, and they have few compunctions about how to achieve it. Simple math...too many people, too few resources, and SOME of those resources NON-renewable means that we MUST figure out how to live with the final numbers in the equation.

sorry, A. Mouse...I don't like it either...(I have a 15 passenger Dodge van bought 10 years ago for use to haul stuff to craft shows, and it only gets about 15 MPG....I have cut its use for anything other than required trips to almost nothing.)


of course, you could always join this group: "Thursday, April 27, 2006, clergy from around the Washington, DC and MD area will gather in downtown DC to pray for the lowering of gas prices. "


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:39 AM

that was me above...lost cookie


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:50 AM

First-some constructive replies/suggestions. The oil shale being one. Second, this ain't just about ME, or MY kids...it's about a lot of folks and a lot of kids.

Methinks you protesteth too much when you mention "...blowing (sic) down the highways at 70MPH in SUV's and tour all summer in 40 foot motor homes forever!" Dunno 'bout you, but I only know ONE family in my neck of the woods with a motorhome/RV vehicle. Granted we live in a smallish, population-wise, area.

Yes-drilling ANWR will be a long process...but as mentioned, a good deal of the price of oil is set by SPECULATORS in commodities (about 50%). Even a token move beyond Dubya stopping the flow of oil to the SOR...which was pretty trasparent and ineffective...will help drive some prices down. I applaud nations that have become more energy independent through ethanol distillation. I believe the price of oil has now crossed the line where such previous attempts ARE now worth it. All of this while listening to how Chevron has just announced RECORD oil profits for this quarter...the second to do so.

Yeah-a group of clergy will pray for the lowering of gas prices. That will definitely do it. Gonna get my bus tix this afternoon and see if I can start it up again. Too bad I missed it LOL.

It ain't a "red-herring" Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:56 AM

Get a diesel car and burn bio-deisel. You don't have a right to destroy the livelihood of another people (many other peoples in fact) just so you can pay cheap prices at the pump. Take responsibility for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 11:58 AM

My wife and I have driven vehicles that have AVERAGED more than 25 mpg since we were married in 1973 -- I have the records and can prove it. We now have ONE vehicle that gets an average of 22-23 mpg, and that's the first on in 33 years with mileage like that!

We have also recycled during that whole time.

My nieces and nephews have and are paying their own way through college, via scholarships, grants, work, the GI Bill and loans; their parents did the same (and repaid every penny of the loans, too). Builds character -- and I'm not being facetious about that.

I'm not normally one to get annoyed; I'll leave a thread first. But this time I say: Start changing or start dying. It's the same choice humans have always had.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 12:06 PM

And that applies to everyone. No matter where you live.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 12:09 PM

" we live in a smallish, population-wise, area."

We do not...we live near Wash DC, and big vehicles going fast are everywhere. I know several people with large Motor Coaches...one of which is about as big as is legal. It is parked in a shed right now, with its future use uncertain.

We have severe traffic problems, with rush-hour traffic backed up for miles in many places. I am NOT going to a couple of festivals this Summer that I would like to, because I simply can't justify the gas to get there.

I repeat...ANWR would, at the most optimistic scenario, do very little to lower your gas prices, because by the time it is on line, world use will have outstripped possible benefits.

ANWR would be only a VERY dubious and expensive band-aid.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 12:28 PM

I actually may start shopping mostly at grocery stores that I don't like that are within ½ mile of my home, rather than some that are 2-4 miles away, just to save extra gas. People I know are beginning to car-pool just to go to certain folk music events....whenever it is convenient. (It is NOT always, because a lot of us live in widely dispersed places)


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 12:35 PM

Dear Anonny Mouse,

You can't drill your way to a solution of this problem. ANWR represents only a little fraction of the oil that's needed.

If you are so angry with the price of gas, perhaps a question is in order. Why elect Bush who is the supreme would-be oil man with the idea that he would be impartial to the regulation of exorbitant salaries of the Exxon and other oil companies CEOs?

The supply and demand propaganda is a red-herring. You can't blame it all on Iran, either. Those who voted for Bush deserve to be paying an arm and a leg for their gas in their SUV's.

Do you think Bush really has an alternative energy program with Cheney and his cronies in the oil industries calling the shots? Be mad at what Bush is doing and throw him out at the next election. Maybe then you'll see gas prices regulated.

Oh that's right. Government is not allowed to regulate. De-regulation on Reagan ruined the airlines so it will probably mean more of the same for health care, getting a decent minimum wage, more Taft Hartley and higher gas prices.

If you voted for Bush you deserve what you get.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 01:38 PM

I just spent a great deal of time and effort counting all this up on my fingers and toes, so listen up!

Cold, hard facts:

Latest estimate I heard (a couple of days ago) America consumes 20,000,000 barrels of oil per day. That's 20 million.

The projected yield (an assumption, by the way) of oil under ANWR:   16,000,000,000. That's 16 billion.

That sounds like a lot, but unlimber your fingers and take off your shoes so you can count, now. . . .

Assuming that the oil companies that drill for the oil don't sell it somewhere else—
That would last America 800 days. That's 8 hundred. Or
2 years, 2 months, and 10 days. Or
26 months, 2 weeks, and 6 days. Or
114 weeks, and 2 days.

Then, what?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 02:22 PM

Point taken Don. However, 800 days is not chump change in time. Kennedy lasted, what, 1000 days? How long was "Desert Storm"? OK-bad analogy. All I'm saying is a LOT can happen in 2 years and 2 months.

Consider: from the US there will be a new Prez, cabinet and complete change (one can hope) in leadership. 800 days might buy us some time for auto companies to really get on the hybrid bandwagon; 800 days might build some more ethenol refineries; 800 days could see Iran's present government fall flat on its collective ass; 800 days could easily see the current 30-40% "speculative" price of Oil Per Barrel lose its bottom. 800 days will NOT solve our energy crises: I'm not that naive.

But...when I was in energy/environment/ecology as a vocational field, 800 days *could* be an eternity. It also was (for me, at least) a drop in the time bucket in other respects. I'm sure that many of you might be surprised to learn that Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and other major middle-east oil companies are STILL in an environmental mess from Hussein lighting up all those well-heads, and destroying untold masses of land, wildlife and natural resources...and THIS from 1991!! So, I am sensitive to (and professionally aware of) REEEEAAALLY SCARY things like the U.S. "nuking" Iran's nuke facilities. In all honesty, the prospect of this will dwarf EVERYTHING. Believe it.

Rant du jour over. Thanks for tuning in, y'all come back now, heah?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 02:47 PM

Sorry Beardedbruce.... I was not aware that these solar panels had a short life and no re-cycle capability. Got any specific research to point to so that I don't have to sift through years of info on that? Thanks in advance.

Oh, gee, I forgot to mention that the use of solar panels in the production of H is a terrible waste of resources. I forgot to mention things like, say... mirror arrays can produce steam to generate electricity which can be used to produce H. The start up costs are a tad high, but the life cycle cost is near nil and the pollution is near nil.

I really don't know much about the technology. All I know about are the economics. The fact is that the oil companies don't give a shit about life cycle costs or the environment or how many people die. All they care about is making as much money as possible and early retirement.

Our capitalistic econonmy generates this mindset. Unfortunately, the only time a communistic approach seems to be taken is when we are talking about the military... efficient universal medicare is not attainable but let's all get together and nuke Iran? What the fuck?

Anyway, it's Friday, and it's happy hour. Think I'll have a few Buds. That's a few nickels for the NRA. After all, if Mad Max comes after me gas, I'll need me guns, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 02:48 PM

You really want cheaper Gasoline -Note, Gasoline, NOT oil- then Build refineries. A severe lack of refining capacity is a major factor in rasisng gasoline prices in the US.

You want cheaper Oil, then tell Saudi Arabia to drill lots more wells. It's the easiest, and hence cheapest*, place to get a new oil well on line fast, and they have the infrastructure in place

You want to do something sensible? Get a small car that will do 50+ miles per gallon.


* IIRC, the actual cost to pump oil out of the ground in Saudia Arabia is 5-8 dollars a barrel. This is far lower than anywhere else........Well, probaly excepting the other oil producing counties of the Persian Gulf.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 02:58 PM

While it is six years old, most of the info in this is still valid, I believe, thoughs ome of the figures may have changed, i.e. American rate of consumption, etc. It's from when I was writing a monthly op/ed column for several newspapers:

"Keep Alaska's Arctic Coastal Plain
safe from Bush-sanctioned oil exploration"

   The Arctic Coastal Plain is so critical for wildlife and so rich with diversity it has been dubbed "America's Serengeti." It is the calving area for the Porcupine Caribou Herd of almost two hundred thousand. There is no nutritional alternative to the important forage the caribou find on the ACP.

   Literally millions of birds migrate from places as far flung as Asia, South America, and Chesapeake Bay to nest there; raising their young, molting, and feeding in preparation for their return migrations. It also abounds with grizzly bears, wolves, arctic foxes, and golden eagles. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has called it "the center for wildlife activity for the entire refuge."

   George W. Bush would change all of that. In the first presidential debate, he accused Al Gore of using scare tactics to win votes. In virtually the next breath he brandished his own bogey-man in the way of dependence on foreign oil. He would open up Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, in particular the Arctic Coastal Plain, to the oil field industry. The ANWR covers 19.6 million acres, almost half of it designated wilderness. The crucial part of it which Bush wants to open for exploration is a 1.5 million acre portion of Alaska's Arctic Coastal Plain. Those 1.5 million acres are the only part of the ACP which is included in the Refuge, and as such, protected. Those 1.5 million acres are also the only place which contains all of the Arctic sub-ecosystems in one protected area. The rest of the Arctic Coastal Plain, the ninety-five percent not covered by the Refuge, is already available for oil and gas exploration.

   During the Reagan administration, the Department of Interior found there was a chance of less than one in five of ever finding recoverable oil in the ANWR. If oil companies beat those odds and strike pay dirt, both the Department of Energy and the U.S. Geological Survey have said it would most likely amount to a mere 3.2 million barrels, which would only last a few months in meeting the needs of American consumers. It would also take about ten years to even hit the market. Ninety-five percent of Alaska's North Slope is available for oil exploration. Oil companies expect to step up their production on the North Slope with forecasted increases of 15-17%, all without opening any of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

   Americans consume 25% of the world's oil. America has, at the most, reserves of 2-3% of the world's oil. Even if we sacrificed all of our wilderness areas, parks, coastlines, etc., we would never be able to become independent of foreign oil; at our present rate of consumption, there literally is not enough oil in the ground for development. Leaders, who have real vision and care about the earth as a whole and her peoples, must encourage conservation and development of alternatives such as wind and solar energies, but especially fuel cell technology. Utilising hydrocarbon fuel from natural gas, methanol, or even gasoline, fuel cells rely on chemistry, rather than combustion resulting in very few emissions compared to even the cleanest fuel combustion process.

   America pays more than $5 billion per month for imported oil. A small percentage of those monies could bring fuel cell technology to a viable commercial basis within five years; create tens of thousands of jobs; reduce life and planet-threatening pollution; and preserve such important and pristine areas as the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and Coastal Plain.

   Since Bush has been governor of Texas, it has ranked number one in the country for pollution released by manufacturing plants; number one for pollution caused by industrial plants in violation of the Clean Air Act; and, number one in greenhouse emissions. Yet, Bush would have us believe he would protect the Arctic Coastal Plain from any damage caused by oil exploration.

   Maintaining and expanding the status quo is exactly what the majority of automobile manufacturers, oil companies and related industries want to do, no matter the enviromental costs. They have found a willing partner in Bush.

   If we really want our planet to remain viable, thus affording generations to come, literally, a chance at life, we have to say no to Bush's bogey-man of foreign oil dependence. We have to say no to prolonged and continued dependence on any oil. We have to say no to raping pristine wilderness and exploitation of our planet's resources. We must demand more monies for development of affordable technologies, now which can give hope of a better lifetime for those generations to come.

© October 10, 2000 Kat LaFrance
All rights reserved


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 04:27 PM

First, I dismiss the entire treatise above in terms of its accuracy. It is simpley more left-wing propaganda couched in pseudo-science to make you a "believer." The so-called "damage" would be miniscule in proportion to some of the benefits.

Like it or not, we live in a mechanized, industrial and technological age. While I do not debate the unhealthy lust for oil by the biggies (like US, UK, Europe and now, China!), ignoring new sources of petrol BEFORE things have switched over is not the Devil's work.

I WORKED for these guys!! I supported the "company line" for better than a decade. But I have left, and see the lies and half-truths for what they are. There is more than enough oil out there to sustain, and prospet us well into the 21st century--maybe beyond. As I said, most of the price of barrel oil is DICTATED by the Speculators--not actual MARKET CONDITIONS. Get these assholes outta there, and watch what happens to the "precious" barrels. They will drop like a rock in water. It's a fact, Jack. I learned a LOT about the behind-the-scenes fixing of prices, and illegal jacking up of the oil price. Seriously: it's a freakin' joke! It's ALL being controlled by foreign and domestic concerns. No...this is not some "Da Vinci" code, or off the wall conspiracy. It's there. Our so-called oil-rich leaders will not call a spade a spade. The ACTUAL price of per-barrel oil ought to be between 35-40 dollars. NOT $75.00.

Now, it is SERIOUSLY impacting on our economy, poor folks, borderline folks, folks all over the world. Posting here on it will not change a thing...which is why I have sent similar missles to many in upper echelon government positions. So far, the replies have been form letters, and more dissembling. But I will keep at it, because it is a national disgrace!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 04:59 PM

Okay, I'm definitely with you on that, Anonny! The levels of corruption are positively astronomical, and unfortunately the foxes are in charge of the chicken coop. Government regulation? Hell, that's where the foxes get together to plan for their next bucket of the Colonel's finest.

But—nothing personal to anyone, here's my take on it from the consumer level:

My wife and I are impacted just as much as anyone else by high gasoline prices. Well, not as much as some people. We drive a 1999 Toyota Corolla that gets excellent mileage, and in the seven years we've had it, we've only put about 15,000 miles on it. We use the car frugally. When the time comes when we need a new car, it will be a hybrid or something similar. The Prius wasn't available when we got the Corolla or that's what we would have bought. We have a friend who has one, and he loves it!

I have no bloody sympathy for the knothead who goes out an buys a Ford Expedition, a Chevy Suburban, or a Hummer and then pisses and moans about how much he has to pay to fill the tank—and then wants to dig up the whole bleedin' country looking for more oil so he can keep right on gushing pollutants into the atmosphere.

All I can say is "you buttered your bread, now lie in it!"

Tip when test-driving a vehicle you're thinking of buying:   if, when you step on the accelerator, it sounds like a toilet flushing, keep looking.

By the way, here's a point to keep in mind: a scientist friend of mine (and a well-known science fiction writer in his spare time) once said to me that we make an immense number of products, including some pharmaceuticals, from petroleum. Many more things than most people are aware of. Considering all of the things we take for granted that we would have to do without if we ever ran out of petroleum—not even considering powering automobiles—to waste petroleum by burning it to produce energy is a crime against future generations.

So maybe we'd just better hold some in reserve from the insatiable maw of the family gas tank.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:02 PM

"By the way, here's a point to keep in mind: a scientist friend of mine (and a well-known science fiction writer in his spare time) once said to me that we make an immense number of products, including some pharmaceuticals, from petroleum. Many more things than most people are aware of. Considering all of the things we take for granted that we would have to do without if we ever ran out of petroleum—not even considering powering automobiles—to waste petroleum by burning it to produce energy is a crime against future generations."

Absolute agreement- oil is far to useful a raw material to waste for just energy production. (Am I really agreeing with Don F? - YES!!)


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:11 PM

If the price is being controlled by foreign and domestic concerns, drilling in ANWR isn't going to accomplish anything at all, except putting a few more dollars in the pockets of these concerns at the expense of something precious and irreplaceable.

While I'm not very happy about the high prices enriching people who don't deserve it, we need high gasoline prices to motivate people to conserve more and to explore other fuel sources. The government won't do it. The oil companies won't do it. Consumer demand and the auto industry are going to have to do it. The only way that is going to happen is if it becomes too expensive for people to continue to drive gas guzzling vehicles.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:13 PM

The thing is, there are truly plenty of people around who drive big SUVs and do make enough money to support them. they stand there and fill there tank and pay $80 to do it.

That still leaves them with a couple grand in their wallet to enjoy the day with. Sad but true. But they are not evil for having it and not blinking an eye at the gas pump. There are haves and have nots and somewhere in-betweens. That's life. Economics 101 cannot be blamed on George Bush, however big oil companies making record profits are not necessarily criminals either, unfortuanely. assholes, yes. but not neseecarily criminals.

BTW, I drive a 2003 Corolla. Gets 40 MPG on the highway and I love it.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:15 PM

Incredible!!

By the way, BB, the scientist/writer I spoke of is Jerry Pournelle, who tends to be--well--just a bit conservative, one might say. In fact, he himself calls Attila the Hun "a bleeding-heart liberal!"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:17 PM

OK. (He used to use a Zenith Z-100 to write on.)    8-{E


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: bobad
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:26 PM

Many products made from a base of petroleum can easily be made from renewable plant based materials, it's just cheaper and easier using petroleum within the existing infrastructure.

Henry Ford experimented with plant derived plastics in the 20s and 30s and by 1941 exhibited a prototype car made using a substantial amount of soybean and hemp derived plastic components. http://www.hempplastic.com/newSite/hp_fordCar.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:27 PM

IMO, the major problem is that most people want ONE solution to the energy problem.

Solar is fine for low level usage- but to refine aluminum you had best have nuclear. And the idea of putting nuclear in California, given the active fault lines, is stupid. ALL types of energy production need to be looked at, and the appropriate ones utilized.
Geothermal, hydroelectric, solar, wind, tidal... ALL have their place. BUT the entire life cycle MUST be looked at: Just because solar is "free" does not mean that we can afford the environmental impact of the heavy metals used in solar to electric cells. Now, solar/electric is considered "green" because we have sent the manufacture ( and pollution) over to SE Asia.

As for solar/steam, I think it is a great idea, but will produce limited energy for a given area. If we cover the entire area with 100% panals, can we even produce enough power to light the area we have covered? And will we need to? All questions NOT being asked by the advocates and opponants.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:57 PM

I heard a figure that other day, but I can't guarantee it for accuracy. The commentator claimed that if one quarter of the roof space in the United States were covered with solar panels, they would supply all of the country's electrical needs. Curious. Anybody else hear this? Or have any idea?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 06:02 PM

I have always heard 1/3 hp per square yard, in sunlight. But who needs lights during the day? 8-{E


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 06:45 PM

From today's Bob Park's 'What's New"

2. PASSING GAS: MAYBE HIGH GASOLINE PRICES AREN'T THE PROBLEM.
The outcry over the price at the pump has politicians scurrying to come up with immediate relief: Republican Senators proposed putting a $100 bill under everybody's pillow. This is direct and simple. In fact, it's the perfect response to every complaint, not just high gas prices. Sen. Menendez (D-NJ) called for a 60- day suspension of the federal tax on fuel. That'll work too, but people will be even happier if we make it permanent. After all, the national debt is so far out of control it no longer matters.
Republicans also want to start exploring for oil in wildlife refuges. That won't help much in the short term, but a chance to screw environmentalists doesn't come up every day. In short, American ingenuity will find a way. Or we could just let gas prices rise a little, but that might encourage a change to more fuel efficient cars, public transportation, getting a little exercise, cleaner air, shorter commutes, less traffic...


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 08:25 PM

Batteries, BB? Use the solar panels to charge them during the day, then use them when you need them.

If you trip over the first obstacle you encounter and then give up, you won't get very far.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 08:25 PM

Beardedbruce : "...we make an immense number of products, including some pharmaceuticals, from petroleum."

Indeed. But, when I order a tea in a restaurant and they bring me a little plastic jobbie of "milk" and it says "edible oil product" on it, I ask for a taste of the cow. It just ain't right.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 08:39 PM

Don,

And the environmental impact of all those batteries, that will need to be replaced every few years? THAT is a major problem with solar. It would be better to use the daytime power to pump water up into storage, and run it back as hydroelectric, rather than use batteries.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:05 PM

It's possible to produce electricity with a solar collector and sell whatever you don't use to the power companies. It would be a similar setup to the way things are now, except that the electricity would be produced by solar collectors on people's roofs instead of from burning coal or from hydro or nuclear power. The beauty of it is that the space is already disrupted from it's natural state because of having a house or other building on it, so no other natural spaces would need to be disrupted because of it.

http://www.backwoodssolar.com/interests/sellpower.htm

All it takes is a little imagination and some spunk. People can do what is needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:28 PM

In another thread I told about Randy, an acquaintance of mine, who put up his own wind turbine, and of the legal hassles the power companies (but not his neighbors, who were rooting for him) put on him. He stuck to his guns, eventually won all the legal battles, and now his house is energy independent and he sells his excess power to the electric company.

A little ingenuity, along with the guts to carry it out.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:34 PM

We wouldn't be havin' this discussion if the United Sates had a sane foriegn policy...

The attack on Iraq and now the Bush sabre rattlin' against Iran has destabilized the oil rich Middle East and is the #1 cause of the prices folks pay fir petro....

Just fact!!!

So, I repeat... ANWR is a red herring...


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:54 PM

Well, Bobert, some folks are just hard of herring.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 10:32 PM

Sounds fishy to me too Bobert. (and yeah--US foreign policy in the Middle East ain't helpin'-but neither is that buttcrack leader in Iran-if you want to talk saber rattling!)


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 12:18 AM

Okay ...so we suck out all the oil everywhere and anywhere we can find it... then we cut off all the mountaintops and dig out all the coal. After that we cut down all the trees, either for burning or to pasture cattle. And surely to God someone has enough forethought to bottle up all this fresh water to sell to us that's melting off the polar ice caps.

So....after we use up all the environment for every conceivable purpose and there's nothing left to sustain..us..then what do we do, call the Mothership to transport a few billion of us to another planet in order to start the whole process all over again?

Oh excuse me, I forgot. We're only thinking the near future..not the long range plan. Fuck surviving to the next millenium.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 01:56 AM

So....after we use up all the environment for every conceivable purpose and there's nothing left to sustain..us..then what do we do, call the Mothership to transport a few billion of us to another planet in order to start the whole process all over again?

We do what they did on Easter Island. We start eating each other. Then we die out and make room for a dominant species with some common sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 03:10 AM

perhaps the best plan is to move somewhere oil is plentiful and cheap. saudi arabia seems like fun place. we'll club to gether and buy you a towel.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 10:33 AM

>>I'm MAD AS HELL, AND I WON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!! <<

Express yourself in November but don't look to the dems to drill ANWR. It will never happen. Even those in Congress who say they are for it have no intention of drilling ANWR. It's a political gambit. They know it would be stopped and that gives them the ammo to say to their constituents, "Look everyone, we tried to bring you more oil from Alaska but the treehuggers won't let us!" When you know damned well if there was really any oil up there, they'd be drilling it right now.

What I would do in congress is tell the drill advocates, "You want to drill ANWR? Go ahead. But you better make sure you know how much it will cost, you better make sure there's going to be a lot of oil--A LOT of oil--and god help you if you spill any and cause another Exxon Valdez because if you're just blowing smoke up our ass about this, we will take it out of your hide. So go ahead and drill." Nothing would happen.

Let's face it, oil is high because Bush invaded Iraq and disrupted production from the second largest known oil fields. I don't know why people have trouble seeing that. All I keep hearing about is China and India causing the shortage. No, the U.S. is causing the shortage by being an inexcusable oil-hog and for being an inexcusable aggressor nation with its head up its ass.

But your attitude is what makes me sick about America. "Drill, people, so I can live comfortably. I don't care what happens anywhere else as long as I'm getting what I want." We've had enough of that shit. Grow up.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 11:00 AM

In 1972, I visited and photographed Tom Sauk Mt., the highest point in Missouri, where a reservoir had been built to do exactly what beardedbruce mentioned above...pump water UP at night when there was spare power, and release it thru turbines at peak consumption times.

Unfortuantely, last Dec., there was a failure of one of the dam walls with a serious release of a lot of water and an emergency situation. I see that studies are being done to rebuild and stabilize the site.

The point is, it IS possible to add systems like this to our arsenal of power generating tricks....and ANY extra capacity that has a positive cost-benefit ratio ought to be looked at.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 12:21 PM

Agreed here too, beardedbruce. Solar as a solution for the northern foggy wet coast of BC and Alaska is a "pipe" dream, but the amount of energy generated by the massive currents and tidal bores of this coast's passages and inlets is mind boggling......and unlike the wind and bright sunshine, absolutely reliable, except at slack tide.

Perhaps keeping a few killer whales from rubbing on the turbines might prove interesting, but not insurrmountable. LOL

To my knowledge, only a very few pilot projects regarding wave motion pistons have been undertaken off the coast of BC, regarding ocean power, but that's not surprising. North America is at least 5 years behind Europe in this area.

The political "seers" of this Province, have recently lifted the long standing moritorium on drilling in the oil and gas reserves off this coast too. Unfortunately they play golf with the petro-business lobbyists, not those advocating environmentally friendly, almost limitless, alternatives. Sooo short sighted.

Petroleum going to be in short supply? Too bad. Where will Harper get Canada's supply of vaseline then.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 12:56 PM

I may be off-base but I always wonder why nobody seems to consider the amount of jet fuel that is consumed daily and the amount of carbon released into the environment. Last I heard it was about 80 million gallons a day for the U.S. alone. I'm not sure about the amount of carbon but I do know that jets are a significant contributor to greehouse gasses.

I am not suggesting that jets are unnecessary but wonder why nobody ever points a finger at aviation. I would also like to know how much oil the military is using.

Seems to me that the average citizen is supporting the airline industry and the military in more ways than one.

Metchosin - I totally agree that B.C. should be investigating tidal power. The best place would be Johnstone Straight (because of the rapids) but of course that would interfere with the plans to drill for oil. Oil rigs in that area is just plain crazy. As it is, you can only get through that area at slack tide. How do they expect to stabilize an oil rig?

As far as the whales are concerned, I think they would prefer that we harnass tidal energy. We don't have to use the same bay that they use for scratching their bellies. Oil rigs, however, will definitely destroy their habitat.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Alice
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 09:37 AM

By designing buildings, transportation, manufacturing and appliances to be more energy efficient, we would be using a fraction of the energy we use now. The idea of mining our buildings for energy (reducing the need for energy by design) has been around for decades, but then if we did, the oil moguls would not have gotten their billions. Those who have the oil businesses have ruled.
Efficient and Sustainable use of Resources. Click here

Alice


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: number 6
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 09:49 AM

The Oil Companies jack the price up because people will keep on paying for it ... when the populace says 'no more' other opportunists will step in and develop an alternative at a cheaper price (what we are seeing now, with ethanol). It's the way of the free market, which we all enjoy, though you won't admit it.

Right now I'm controlling my driving habits, no more spontaneous day trips .... why, cause I refuse to let the oil companies take anymore of my hard earned cash. I'll live with that. As i said, this situation will be resolved by some opportunitist who will see that there is money to be made with an alternative solution.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:18 PM

Sadly, the "population" saying no aint gonna stop it. I keep tellin' ya, but NO ONE seems to respond with some further elucidation: it's the commodities SPECULATORS responsible for at LEAST 50% of the price of oil per barrel being where it is.

A fall in the Commodities market, which is linked to NOTHING in reality, will kill the oil cash-cow. So MOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! It's dot coms all over, except the oil industry invented the modus operandi. Even a "token" move to drill ANWR, or a "new source" (oil shale), or hybrids will kill this. So y'all go out and buy the new Ford Escape hybrid, or Prius, or the Honda hybrids. Watch what happens. Within five years, hybrids will be the name of the game. Bet on it. 40 mpg on an SUV will be common. This will send all the oil Emirs and Mavens into catatonic fits.

I seriously think someone needs to make the move--even if it only nets 800 days of oil. It WILL have an impact. Meanwhile, I drive my fuel efficient 4-cyl. car. I am, seriously, trying to do my part. How about youse guys, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:25 PM

I live in Alaska. I sold my car, A Mouse, and I keep my home between 60 and 65 degrees. What else do you do?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:51 PM

dude..would u be saying that if Exxon wanted to put an oil rig in your back yard?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:59 PM

Scary thought- almost no homeowner in Juneau Alaska owns subsurface rights so if oil were found in our ground I guess we'd either have to move or live cheek by jowl next to the pumps.

Come to think of it- why doesn't Juneau have oil? We don't have much top soil, granite is our underlayment. Is that why?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:59 PM

Anybody familiar with Signal Hill, south of Los Angeles?

At one time, if you were driving from, say, Pasadena to Long Beach, you passed through an area called (and still called, as I understand it) Signal Hill. It was like driving through a forest. Only instead of trees, they were oil derricks. You know the classic structures: tall, slender pyramids made of wood framing, oil-soaked and black. Thick as trees in a rain forest. As you drove through this area, the smell of oil was overpowering.

Well, a few years back, while visiting friends in Long Beach, Barbara and I had occasion to drive through the Signal Hill area. The oil derricks are gone. No longer a forest of tall, blackened structures reeking of oil. But just about anyplace you look, there are these odd pumps that look like those drinking birds that you used to be able to buy in novelty stores. They look like a miniature version of Big Bird. If you stand them by a glass of water, they lean over, appear to take a drink, rise upright, then lean over and do it again. Only these things were a whole lot bigger than Big Bird. These gizmos are still pumping oil out of the ground.

People had them in their front yards, I saw one in the parking lot of a convenience store (7-11 or something similar). There was one next to a gas station. I commented at the time that "It looks to me like a vertical monopoly. Out of the ground right into your tank." We saw a number of them in a school playground.

The things were everywhere! And although the overpowering smell had abated, it was still there. The air no longer reeked, but it carried a distinct whiff of oil. I imagine the people who live there eventually get used to it, like a fish gets used to water.

I'd rather not think of this sort of thing in connection to ANWR or other wilderness areas. There are not that many of them left.

Buy a bicycle. Take the bus

Hmm. Seattle used to have electric trolleys, the electricity coming from power dams, but the Powers That Be replaced them some decades back with gasoline and diesel buses. I wonder how they feel about that now?

Time to divorce ourselves from oil. It would eliminate a lot of our current international problems and it would cut way down on environmental (especially atmospheric) pollution. There are lots of possible alternatives. But what's probably holding things up is that the power companies a) don't want to change, just on general principles, and b) they haven't figured out a way to run some of the alternate energy systems through a meter yet.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: pdq
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM

Don,

The "novelty shop bird" you mention was very popular in Arizona some years back. It can continue to slowly bob up and down as long as its beak can dip into a supply of water. I'm not sure if the motivation comes from the weight of the water or from temperature change, but it is a clever idea. Invented by a man with a very high IQ: actor Eddie Albert.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 11:20 PM

Supply and demand:

Demand has not gone down, to say the least. Not in the US. To pick a small point, why the hell does everybody now use a gas-powered leaf blower? Too weak to rake?

Also, China and India--everybody knows about them, I think--no need to belabor it.


OK, now supply.

I know, let's invade one of the biggest oil producers in the Mideast. That'll help our supply no end.   It'll be exporting more oil than ever within 2 weeks of Saddam's fall.

Anything you say.

And now, our mighty leader is rattling his saber about attacking another big oil producer.

Anonnymouse--sure is interesting we haven't seen much outrage from you about your mighty leader's foreign policy as it has and continues to affect gas prices.

Could it possibly be you are a Bush supporter?

Nah, not a chance.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 11:39 PM

... is it time to have another "tea party," like the one in Boston two hundred and thirty or so years ago? ... we could call it a "petrol party" ... hold it in some place symbolic of big oil, like Houston, Texas. The "Houston petrol party." ...

Two ways to register dissatisfaction, one a little more radical than the other: 1)stop buying gas and 2)start buying gas, lots of it. Pour it out on the ground or burn it all up in two years time. Use it all.

Sort of like one poster's idea of putting all the terrorist keywords into every piece of email in order to overload the CIA's ability to monitor or intercept messages.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 11:41 PM

This looks like thread drift, but it's not. I did a search on Eddie Albert and his drinking bird. In my search I found this forum/community weblog in which he is discussed...

http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/42356


He was quite a dedicated environmentalist. I love this bit from the thread in the above link...


"Green Acres was genius. I think Briank is exactly right: it was surreal, and perfectly so. Oliver Wendell Douglas kept trying to pin down reality, but everyone around him kept reinventing it faster than he could deal with it. I used to think it was comedy, but as a liberal in today's U.S., I see now it was a tragedy."

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 06 - 04:57 AM

GUEST,AR282 - 29 Apr 06 - 10:33 AM

"Let's face it, oil is high because Bush invaded Iraq and disrupted production from the second largest known oil fields. I don't know why people have trouble seeing that. All I keep hearing about is China and India causing the shortage. No, the U.S. is causing the shortage by being an inexcusable oil-hog and for being an inexcusable aggressor nation with its head up its ass."

Where the US gets its oil from AR282:

Mexico 1.774 million barrels per day
Canada 1.7 million barrels per day
Saudi Arabia 1.4 million barrels per day
Nigeria 1.3 million barrels per day
Venezuela 1.1 million barrels per day

Iraq comes way, way down the list with 444,000 barrels per day

Prior to Desert Storm in 1991 Iraqi production as a percentage of world supply was something like 13%, or less, of the total. People have trouble buying into your take on things because it is false and is easily proved as such. In the sale of any commodity the price is dictated by the market. If you cannot see, or recognise the effect on market price of having the two nations on this earth with the highest populations increase their consumption to fuel their growth as nations then you are denying reality.

US consumption of fuel has got nothing to do with George W Bush, or any of his predecessors. It has got everything to do with the mindset of the individuals who make up the population of the United States of America. If any want anything to change, then change yourselves, it will not come about, or be welcomed, by Government intervention. In the US you have had it too easy and too cheap for too long, now you have to start paying a realistic price, stop whining and get used to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: LilyFestre
Date: 01 May 06 - 07:45 AM

Hey Annonny,

   I know you are pissed about the gas prices, who isn't? I do, however, disagree with you about drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Instead of demanding that more natural lands are destroyed, how about demanding or doing something yourself about looking to other sources of fuel. It can and is being done. How about a hybrid car, the mileage is fantastic and you get a break on your income tax for driving one. If a new car isn't in the picture, maybe more walking or biking is in order....at the very least, run all your errands at the same time instead of making frequent trips.

That RIGHT NOW mentality isn't good for anyone.

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: autolycus
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:29 AM

I've been reading a book about the oil crisis by an ex oil man.

   He invites the reader to ask a selection of educated people, "In which year would you say was the peak of oil discovery?

   Would you like to guess without looking it up?

   If there are enough takers, I'l post the answer my author gives, with further details.

   "Oil discovery", I think means the size of the discovered fields.


   Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 01 May 06 - 01:01 PM

The real answer in the short term is ethanol (up to 85% mix). It answers a lot of problems. Farmers will no longer be losing their farms. We could put an end to big tobacco by encouraging them to grow high oil yield plants or corn. Anyone, and I do mean anyone, can make a still. It would bring an end to sugar subsidies as well. Add to this that all of the new "green growth" would suck CO2 out of the air.
Just think of the new "Victory Gardens", everyone doing their part to save us from foreign (and domestic) oil. The only drawback is somewhat lesser mileage and possible rust in the exhaust system (which could be ceramic lined).

We already have the infrastructure to collect, transport and dispense. Hydrogen is still years off and requires power to make.

I think batteries are a decent way to go as well. No really decent range but I'll go out on a limb and speculate that most of us don't drive more than 90 miles one way. 1st make the vehicles attractive instead of the ugly ass things we've seen. 2nd come out with an interchangeable pack for quick changes. 3rd use solarpanels for the outer body to charge the pack (park them under streetlights for free recharge at night). The waste product (if lead-acid) can either be recycled or used to help shield the Yucca flats storage facility.

By the way, their is no guarantee whatsoever that any oil from ANWR would be sold to the U.S. It will be sold to the highest bidder so it would only help by putting more oil on the market (minimal) which would be countered by OPEC reducing output.

It ain't supply and demand when you control the supply. Shrinking competition by merger tightens the grip!


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 May 06 - 02:47 PM

The war with Iraq and saber-rattling over Iran is not necessarily about acquiring oil for use by American consumers. And it certainly has nothing to do with keeping the price of gasoline down. That's another issue, i.e. allowing the oil companies to maximize their profits. No problem there. After all, there is a revolving door between the oil company board rooms and the government.

Nor does the Iraq war have anything to do with an altruistic wish to bring democracy to the Iraqi people (unless your definition of "democracy" is "to make the world safe for American business"). What the Iraq war is about is geopolitical power. By gaining geopolitical power in the Middle East, the United States then has its hand on the tap and can determine who gets the oil and who doesn't. That's a fair chunk of power one then has over several other countries the U. S. is finding itself in competition with, both economically and in terms of who gets to be a "superpower" and who doesn't.

With the possibility of what might be called "black gold blackmail," do you really think the U. S. government is that enthusiastic about turning its back on oil politics and promoting alternative energy sources? Lip service, yes, but in reality, I think not. So we're going to have to do that on our own. Don't buy gas-guzzling cars. Don't buy a car at all if you don't absolutely need one. Lots of Europeans don't have cars, they use public transportation and /or bicycles, and they get along just fine. Do whatever you can to support the development of alternative energy sources. There are plenty of them out there, just waiting for someone with a little ingenuity.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 May 06 - 02:58 PM

Chief, it's obvious you don't live in the western US. 90 miles is just a short hop.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 06 - 04:33 PM

The "drinking bird" was a common guest in our house when we were growing up. My father the physicist was very fond of it. It dates back to at least the sixties. We called it a "dippy dilly" and I still have one.

I think what Don was referring to in driving throuh L.A. was the transition from oil drilling 'rigs' (the derricks he mentioned) which are removed after the well is proven and replaced with 'cricket' pumps, which do the main work of getting the oil up and into a tank from which it is shipped to the rifinery. Cricket pumps use comparatively little power and are adjusted for the particular depth and rate for the particular well they are pumping.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:42 PM

AHA! Good ol' Google. I just found a few photos.

Signal Hill, California, back when I first went through it. My folks and I, who lived in Pasadena at the time, went to visit some friends in Long Beach. THIS photo in the Wikipedia entry gives a pretty good idea of what Signal Hill looked like back then (late Thirties). I was just about big enough so I could peer out the car window as we drove through. There were a lot of residences there before they discovered oil. Living there back then must have been a lovely experience. I wonder how many people actually owned the mineral rights under their property.

I found out the "drinking bird" pumps are actually referred to as "nodding donkeys" or "horsehead" pumps. Cricket pumps? Yeah, I can see their being referred to as that as well. Most of the ones we saw the last time we went through (late Eighties) didn't look exactly like THIS one, although this one is in Signal Hill. Most of them looked more like THIS, which has been given a somewhat whimsical paint job.

Re: the "Dippy Bird." HERE's a more-or-less bare-nekkid one (except for the top-hat) with an explanation of how the critter works. Most of the ones I saw live were covered with a sort of fuzzy yellow material, so they actually looked a bit like Big Bird, but I'm not sure that was the actual intent.

Ain't life wunnerful!?? You never know when you wake up in the morning what marvels you will learn as you move through the day!

Now, back to our regular broadcast. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 06 - 12:01 AM

Teribus--


You haven't learned much since your magnificent performance on the Iraq propaganda thread--stalwartly denying you had been hit, as your ship sank beneath the waves.

If you think Bush's Iraq policy and now his threats against Iran have no impact on the oil market, you're even more naive than I thought. How many citations will it take to enlighten you?

Also "the US consumption of fuel has got nothing to do with George W Bush". Wrong, as usual.

Nobody argues with the idea that the US public has to change its profligate ways regarding oil. But who has been the #1 cheerleader of the the "just find more oil"--it's our birthright to waste resources" approach?--until VERY recently. Why looky there, it's Mr. Bush.   Quelle surprise! And who has seen to it that any requirements on fuel economy have been stripped out of energy bills? Why, it's his strongest supporters. Amazing! Instead of conserving, let's ravage anywhere in the world where there's oil, including now the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

According to Bush's own DOE, the difference in foreign oil dependence with the Refuge oil will be about 2%.

Let 'er rip. Remember our birthright--cheap oil. Classic Bush--and Bushites. It's such a privilege to share the planet with you and other Bush supporters.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 02 May 06 - 02:23 PM

Let me first address the environmentalist-oriented folks. What did "I" do was a question. Fair enough.

I have "downsized" both mine and my wife's vehicle. I now drive a 4 cyl Mazda "6"--My wife is in a Jeep Liberty (smallish SUV). Where WE live 4WD isn't a luxury, it's a neccessity. The Liberty is much better on gas than our former, beloved Cherokee with a V-8. I got ride of an Alero with a V-6 to A Mazda 6, 4 cyl. We also combine trips to stores, Mall, or elsewhere. Believe me, if the waiting list for a Prius wasn't months to YEARS (although improving) I wouldda bought a Prius. So there.

As for the Bush "oil policy," I don NOT support him or his minions on much of it. "Political correctness" has sullied the ANWR and off-shore drilling for the time being. No doubt, both areas would slake our oil needs for the next 50 YEARS! However, hybrid cars are where it's at. 5 years from now there will have been a complete switchoever. You can take that to the Bank or Broker. Get in on the lower floors--it is the next big thing (along with a batter development that will BLOW YOUR MINDS! [can say nothing more]). But it's a comin'...and we will all benefit from it. A DECADE from now, the "oil rich" middle east will be a distant memory. They know it; that's one of the reasons Iran want's nukes. It's all about OIL! But it won't be soon enough for some of us.........LOL.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 02 May 06 - 03:20 PM

True I'm on the right coast.
But if you had the quick change packs it might not make a difference.

I don't know, I've always had an odd feeling that there is collusion between the oil industry, car manufacturers, housing magnates and big business. Instead of replacing old delapidated buildings with housing, they make new office towers. Instead of decentralizing business (which in a terrorist threatened world would be a good idea) they concentrate everything down town. They even convinced housing magnates to stop putting in sidewalks so that people would drive more. All this technology at our fingertips and still everyday I have a 1.5 hr. round trip commute. We need to get serious about telecommuting. That would put a dent in demand!


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: LilyFestre
Date: 02 May 06 - 03:22 PM

If a 4x4 is necessary and you are interested in the hybid, what about the Ford Escape? If I had the cash, this is what I'd be driving as we NEED the 4x4 where we live as well.

Escape 4x4 Hybrid

Just an interesting chart...
Rank of Oil Producing Countries

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: GUEST,Boss Hog
Date: 03 May 06 - 01:28 PM

F.O.R.D. = FIX OR REPAIR DAILY


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: autolycus
Date: 03 May 06 - 03:00 PM

I'll mention it anyway.

According to Jeremy Leggatt, who was a consultant to the oil industry for many years, says in Half Gone, just published, that "the peak of oil discovery was.....1965".

His title means how much he reckons we have used of all the oil there'lll be, given that making new oil takes the odd few years.


   Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 03 May 06 - 03:42 PM

First, the Hybrid Explorer (or whatever) wasn't out there in Jan. 1/05. Yes, I wish I had one! The Liberty is smaller than a Cherokee, and better on gas (but not by much!). I (we) have tried to downsize, and be more gasoline conservative. I have succeeded with a 4-cyl. Mazda "6". And yes, sadly, 4WD is NOT an add-on, or "luxury" where we live. It is truly a survival vehicle. You would NOT believe the muck, snow, ice, mess I had to navigate through to pick up my Dad for Thanksgiving. It was horrid!!! You have no idea unless you have lived in the Lake Effect, Snow Belts in/off Lake Erie in the cold weather. I don't think 4.00 per gallon would ever stop me from filling the Liberty. It has saved my life, literally, twice. How much is THAT worth a gallon??


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 06 - 08:12 AM

"Scientists Discover (Biggest Ever) Oil field off U.S. coast
....Scientists from Cornell University have discovered a massive amount of Oil off the coast of Louisiana.The find is some 60 billion barrels or 3 Times more than current US recoverable Oil of 20 Billion barrels, and would bring US total reserves to 80 billion barrels which is on par with Venezuela. In comparison to other finds around the world, this is twice the size of all Oil ever found in the North Sea and 6 times larger than the estimates of the Alaskan ANWR oil deposits."

From http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/oildiscovery.html


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 May 06 - 08:20 AM

And April 1 is over. Sounds plausible. Need more confirmation.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:26 PM

Autolycus, my understanding is that the "peak of oil discovery" is not quite that. Instead it refers to a period where oil extraction starts costing more than one gets for the product.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: autolycus
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:36 PM

Ebbie - thanks for your post.

   I have before me a table in Leggatt's book titled Past global oil discovery and production. "The historical figures in (the table0 were compiled by ExxonMobil with reserves additions in known oil fields backdated to the year of discovery by the Association for the Study of Peak Oil."(Pg.57)

   The first peak was around 1940 (35 billion barrels p.a.).

   The second "   "    "    1950 (55    "       "      " )

   The third       "         1965 (c.58          "       )

   The fourth      "         1973 (c.42          "       )

   The fifth       "         2000 (c.18          "       )


Hope that helps clarify.


   Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: podman
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:36 PM

Relatively new field of Enhanced Oil Recovery, involves sophisticated methods of prospecting, evaluating fields, drilling with steerable rigs and reducing surface land impact (expense). So oil will continue to flow. It just won't continue to flow 'cheap'.

And LEDs will light the way, and hybrid vehicles will recover energy while stopping. And Toyota will overtake GM. Prius trumps Hummer.

Future's so bright, I gotta wear shades.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:48 PM

I do hope - and wish - that you are right, Podman.


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