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BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!

Ebbie 07 May 06 - 02:48 PM
podman 07 May 06 - 02:36 PM
autolycus 07 May 06 - 02:36 PM
Ebbie 06 May 06 - 10:26 PM
Ron Davies 06 May 06 - 08:20 AM
bobad 06 May 06 - 08:12 AM
Anonny Mouse 03 May 06 - 03:42 PM
autolycus 03 May 06 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,Boss Hog 03 May 06 - 01:28 PM
LilyFestre 02 May 06 - 03:22 PM
Chief Chaos 02 May 06 - 03:20 PM
Anonny Mouse 02 May 06 - 02:23 PM
Ron Davies 02 May 06 - 12:01 AM
Don Firth 01 May 06 - 08:42 PM
robomatic 01 May 06 - 04:33 PM
Sorcha 01 May 06 - 02:58 PM
Don Firth 01 May 06 - 02:47 PM
Chief Chaos 01 May 06 - 01:01 PM
autolycus 01 May 06 - 08:29 AM
LilyFestre 01 May 06 - 07:45 AM
Teribus 01 May 06 - 04:57 AM
CarolC 30 Apr 06 - 11:41 PM
GUEST 30 Apr 06 - 11:39 PM
Ron Davies 30 Apr 06 - 11:20 PM
pdq 30 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM
Don Firth 30 Apr 06 - 04:59 PM
Ebbie 30 Apr 06 - 01:59 PM
GUEST 30 Apr 06 - 01:51 PM
Ebbie 30 Apr 06 - 01:25 PM
Anonny Mouse 30 Apr 06 - 01:18 PM
number 6 30 Apr 06 - 09:49 AM
Alice 30 Apr 06 - 09:37 AM
dianavan 29 Apr 06 - 12:56 PM
Metchosin 29 Apr 06 - 12:21 PM
Bill D 29 Apr 06 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,AR282 29 Apr 06 - 10:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 29 Apr 06 - 03:10 AM
CarolC 29 Apr 06 - 01:56 AM
GUEST 29 Apr 06 - 12:18 AM
Anonny Mouse 28 Apr 06 - 10:32 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 06 - 09:54 PM
Bobert 28 Apr 06 - 09:34 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 06 - 09:28 PM
CarolC 28 Apr 06 - 09:05 PM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 06 - 08:39 PM
gnu 28 Apr 06 - 08:25 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 06 - 08:25 PM
TheBigPinkLad 28 Apr 06 - 06:45 PM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 06 - 06:02 PM
Don Firth 28 Apr 06 - 05:57 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:48 PM

I do hope - and wish - that you are right, Podman.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: podman
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:36 PM

Relatively new field of Enhanced Oil Recovery, involves sophisticated methods of prospecting, evaluating fields, drilling with steerable rigs and reducing surface land impact (expense). So oil will continue to flow. It just won't continue to flow 'cheap'.

And LEDs will light the way, and hybrid vehicles will recover energy while stopping. And Toyota will overtake GM. Prius trumps Hummer.

Future's so bright, I gotta wear shades.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: autolycus
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:36 PM

Ebbie - thanks for your post.

   I have before me a table in Leggatt's book titled Past global oil discovery and production. "The historical figures in (the table0 were compiled by ExxonMobil with reserves additions in known oil fields backdated to the year of discovery by the Association for the Study of Peak Oil."(Pg.57)

   The first peak was around 1940 (35 billion barrels p.a.).

   The second "   "    "    1950 (55    "       "      " )

   The third       "         1965 (c.58          "       )

   The fourth      "         1973 (c.42          "       )

   The fifth       "         2000 (c.18          "       )


Hope that helps clarify.


   Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:26 PM

Autolycus, my understanding is that the "peak of oil discovery" is not quite that. Instead it refers to a period where oil extraction starts costing more than one gets for the product.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 May 06 - 08:20 AM

And April 1 is over. Sounds plausible. Need more confirmation.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 06 - 08:12 AM

"Scientists Discover (Biggest Ever) Oil field off U.S. coast
....Scientists from Cornell University have discovered a massive amount of Oil off the coast of Louisiana.The find is some 60 billion barrels or 3 Times more than current US recoverable Oil of 20 Billion barrels, and would bring US total reserves to 80 billion barrels which is on par with Venezuela. In comparison to other finds around the world, this is twice the size of all Oil ever found in the North Sea and 6 times larger than the estimates of the Alaskan ANWR oil deposits."

From http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/oildiscovery.html


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 03 May 06 - 03:42 PM

First, the Hybrid Explorer (or whatever) wasn't out there in Jan. 1/05. Yes, I wish I had one! The Liberty is smaller than a Cherokee, and better on gas (but not by much!). I (we) have tried to downsize, and be more gasoline conservative. I have succeeded with a 4-cyl. Mazda "6". And yes, sadly, 4WD is NOT an add-on, or "luxury" where we live. It is truly a survival vehicle. You would NOT believe the muck, snow, ice, mess I had to navigate through to pick up my Dad for Thanksgiving. It was horrid!!! You have no idea unless you have lived in the Lake Effect, Snow Belts in/off Lake Erie in the cold weather. I don't think 4.00 per gallon would ever stop me from filling the Liberty. It has saved my life, literally, twice. How much is THAT worth a gallon??


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: autolycus
Date: 03 May 06 - 03:00 PM

I'll mention it anyway.

According to Jeremy Leggatt, who was a consultant to the oil industry for many years, says in Half Gone, just published, that "the peak of oil discovery was.....1965".

His title means how much he reckons we have used of all the oil there'lll be, given that making new oil takes the odd few years.


   Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: GUEST,Boss Hog
Date: 03 May 06 - 01:28 PM

F.O.R.D. = FIX OR REPAIR DAILY


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: LilyFestre
Date: 02 May 06 - 03:22 PM

If a 4x4 is necessary and you are interested in the hybid, what about the Ford Escape? If I had the cash, this is what I'd be driving as we NEED the 4x4 where we live as well.

Escape 4x4 Hybrid

Just an interesting chart...
Rank of Oil Producing Countries

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 02 May 06 - 03:20 PM

True I'm on the right coast.
But if you had the quick change packs it might not make a difference.

I don't know, I've always had an odd feeling that there is collusion between the oil industry, car manufacturers, housing magnates and big business. Instead of replacing old delapidated buildings with housing, they make new office towers. Instead of decentralizing business (which in a terrorist threatened world would be a good idea) they concentrate everything down town. They even convinced housing magnates to stop putting in sidewalks so that people would drive more. All this technology at our fingertips and still everyday I have a 1.5 hr. round trip commute. We need to get serious about telecommuting. That would put a dent in demand!


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 02 May 06 - 02:23 PM

Let me first address the environmentalist-oriented folks. What did "I" do was a question. Fair enough.

I have "downsized" both mine and my wife's vehicle. I now drive a 4 cyl Mazda "6"--My wife is in a Jeep Liberty (smallish SUV). Where WE live 4WD isn't a luxury, it's a neccessity. The Liberty is much better on gas than our former, beloved Cherokee with a V-8. I got ride of an Alero with a V-6 to A Mazda 6, 4 cyl. We also combine trips to stores, Mall, or elsewhere. Believe me, if the waiting list for a Prius wasn't months to YEARS (although improving) I wouldda bought a Prius. So there.

As for the Bush "oil policy," I don NOT support him or his minions on much of it. "Political correctness" has sullied the ANWR and off-shore drilling for the time being. No doubt, both areas would slake our oil needs for the next 50 YEARS! However, hybrid cars are where it's at. 5 years from now there will have been a complete switchoever. You can take that to the Bank or Broker. Get in on the lower floors--it is the next big thing (along with a batter development that will BLOW YOUR MINDS! [can say nothing more]). But it's a comin'...and we will all benefit from it. A DECADE from now, the "oil rich" middle east will be a distant memory. They know it; that's one of the reasons Iran want's nukes. It's all about OIL! But it won't be soon enough for some of us.........LOL.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 06 - 12:01 AM

Teribus--


You haven't learned much since your magnificent performance on the Iraq propaganda thread--stalwartly denying you had been hit, as your ship sank beneath the waves.

If you think Bush's Iraq policy and now his threats against Iran have no impact on the oil market, you're even more naive than I thought. How many citations will it take to enlighten you?

Also "the US consumption of fuel has got nothing to do with George W Bush". Wrong, as usual.

Nobody argues with the idea that the US public has to change its profligate ways regarding oil. But who has been the #1 cheerleader of the the "just find more oil"--it's our birthright to waste resources" approach?--until VERY recently. Why looky there, it's Mr. Bush.   Quelle surprise! And who has seen to it that any requirements on fuel economy have been stripped out of energy bills? Why, it's his strongest supporters. Amazing! Instead of conserving, let's ravage anywhere in the world where there's oil, including now the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

According to Bush's own DOE, the difference in foreign oil dependence with the Refuge oil will be about 2%.

Let 'er rip. Remember our birthright--cheap oil. Classic Bush--and Bushites. It's such a privilege to share the planet with you and other Bush supporters.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:42 PM

AHA! Good ol' Google. I just found a few photos.

Signal Hill, California, back when I first went through it. My folks and I, who lived in Pasadena at the time, went to visit some friends in Long Beach. THIS photo in the Wikipedia entry gives a pretty good idea of what Signal Hill looked like back then (late Thirties). I was just about big enough so I could peer out the car window as we drove through. There were a lot of residences there before they discovered oil. Living there back then must have been a lovely experience. I wonder how many people actually owned the mineral rights under their property.

I found out the "drinking bird" pumps are actually referred to as "nodding donkeys" or "horsehead" pumps. Cricket pumps? Yeah, I can see their being referred to as that as well. Most of the ones we saw the last time we went through (late Eighties) didn't look exactly like THIS one, although this one is in Signal Hill. Most of them looked more like THIS, which has been given a somewhat whimsical paint job.

Re: the "Dippy Bird." HERE's a more-or-less bare-nekkid one (except for the top-hat) with an explanation of how the critter works. Most of the ones I saw live were covered with a sort of fuzzy yellow material, so they actually looked a bit like Big Bird, but I'm not sure that was the actual intent.

Ain't life wunnerful!?? You never know when you wake up in the morning what marvels you will learn as you move through the day!

Now, back to our regular broadcast. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 06 - 04:33 PM

The "drinking bird" was a common guest in our house when we were growing up. My father the physicist was very fond of it. It dates back to at least the sixties. We called it a "dippy dilly" and I still have one.

I think what Don was referring to in driving throuh L.A. was the transition from oil drilling 'rigs' (the derricks he mentioned) which are removed after the well is proven and replaced with 'cricket' pumps, which do the main work of getting the oil up and into a tank from which it is shipped to the rifinery. Cricket pumps use comparatively little power and are adjusted for the particular depth and rate for the particular well they are pumping.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 May 06 - 02:58 PM

Chief, it's obvious you don't live in the western US. 90 miles is just a short hop.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 May 06 - 02:47 PM

The war with Iraq and saber-rattling over Iran is not necessarily about acquiring oil for use by American consumers. And it certainly has nothing to do with keeping the price of gasoline down. That's another issue, i.e. allowing the oil companies to maximize their profits. No problem there. After all, there is a revolving door between the oil company board rooms and the government.

Nor does the Iraq war have anything to do with an altruistic wish to bring democracy to the Iraqi people (unless your definition of "democracy" is "to make the world safe for American business"). What the Iraq war is about is geopolitical power. By gaining geopolitical power in the Middle East, the United States then has its hand on the tap and can determine who gets the oil and who doesn't. That's a fair chunk of power one then has over several other countries the U. S. is finding itself in competition with, both economically and in terms of who gets to be a "superpower" and who doesn't.

With the possibility of what might be called "black gold blackmail," do you really think the U. S. government is that enthusiastic about turning its back on oil politics and promoting alternative energy sources? Lip service, yes, but in reality, I think not. So we're going to have to do that on our own. Don't buy gas-guzzling cars. Don't buy a car at all if you don't absolutely need one. Lots of Europeans don't have cars, they use public transportation and /or bicycles, and they get along just fine. Do whatever you can to support the development of alternative energy sources. There are plenty of them out there, just waiting for someone with a little ingenuity.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 01 May 06 - 01:01 PM

The real answer in the short term is ethanol (up to 85% mix). It answers a lot of problems. Farmers will no longer be losing their farms. We could put an end to big tobacco by encouraging them to grow high oil yield plants or corn. Anyone, and I do mean anyone, can make a still. It would bring an end to sugar subsidies as well. Add to this that all of the new "green growth" would suck CO2 out of the air.
Just think of the new "Victory Gardens", everyone doing their part to save us from foreign (and domestic) oil. The only drawback is somewhat lesser mileage and possible rust in the exhaust system (which could be ceramic lined).

We already have the infrastructure to collect, transport and dispense. Hydrogen is still years off and requires power to make.

I think batteries are a decent way to go as well. No really decent range but I'll go out on a limb and speculate that most of us don't drive more than 90 miles one way. 1st make the vehicles attractive instead of the ugly ass things we've seen. 2nd come out with an interchangeable pack for quick changes. 3rd use solarpanels for the outer body to charge the pack (park them under streetlights for free recharge at night). The waste product (if lead-acid) can either be recycled or used to help shield the Yucca flats storage facility.

By the way, their is no guarantee whatsoever that any oil from ANWR would be sold to the U.S. It will be sold to the highest bidder so it would only help by putting more oil on the market (minimal) which would be countered by OPEC reducing output.

It ain't supply and demand when you control the supply. Shrinking competition by merger tightens the grip!


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: autolycus
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:29 AM

I've been reading a book about the oil crisis by an ex oil man.

   He invites the reader to ask a selection of educated people, "In which year would you say was the peak of oil discovery?

   Would you like to guess without looking it up?

   If there are enough takers, I'l post the answer my author gives, with further details.

   "Oil discovery", I think means the size of the discovered fields.


   Ivor


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: LilyFestre
Date: 01 May 06 - 07:45 AM

Hey Annonny,

   I know you are pissed about the gas prices, who isn't? I do, however, disagree with you about drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Instead of demanding that more natural lands are destroyed, how about demanding or doing something yourself about looking to other sources of fuel. It can and is being done. How about a hybrid car, the mileage is fantastic and you get a break on your income tax for driving one. If a new car isn't in the picture, maybe more walking or biking is in order....at the very least, run all your errands at the same time instead of making frequent trips.

That RIGHT NOW mentality isn't good for anyone.

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 01 May 06 - 04:57 AM

GUEST,AR282 - 29 Apr 06 - 10:33 AM

"Let's face it, oil is high because Bush invaded Iraq and disrupted production from the second largest known oil fields. I don't know why people have trouble seeing that. All I keep hearing about is China and India causing the shortage. No, the U.S. is causing the shortage by being an inexcusable oil-hog and for being an inexcusable aggressor nation with its head up its ass."

Where the US gets its oil from AR282:

Mexico 1.774 million barrels per day
Canada 1.7 million barrels per day
Saudi Arabia 1.4 million barrels per day
Nigeria 1.3 million barrels per day
Venezuela 1.1 million barrels per day

Iraq comes way, way down the list with 444,000 barrels per day

Prior to Desert Storm in 1991 Iraqi production as a percentage of world supply was something like 13%, or less, of the total. People have trouble buying into your take on things because it is false and is easily proved as such. In the sale of any commodity the price is dictated by the market. If you cannot see, or recognise the effect on market price of having the two nations on this earth with the highest populations increase their consumption to fuel their growth as nations then you are denying reality.

US consumption of fuel has got nothing to do with George W Bush, or any of his predecessors. It has got everything to do with the mindset of the individuals who make up the population of the United States of America. If any want anything to change, then change yourselves, it will not come about, or be welcomed, by Government intervention. In the US you have had it too easy and too cheap for too long, now you have to start paying a realistic price, stop whining and get used to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 11:41 PM

This looks like thread drift, but it's not. I did a search on Eddie Albert and his drinking bird. In my search I found this forum/community weblog in which he is discussed...

http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/42356


He was quite a dedicated environmentalist. I love this bit from the thread in the above link...


"Green Acres was genius. I think Briank is exactly right: it was surreal, and perfectly so. Oliver Wendell Douglas kept trying to pin down reality, but everyone around him kept reinventing it faster than he could deal with it. I used to think it was comedy, but as a liberal in today's U.S., I see now it was a tragedy."

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 11:39 PM

... is it time to have another "tea party," like the one in Boston two hundred and thirty or so years ago? ... we could call it a "petrol party" ... hold it in some place symbolic of big oil, like Houston, Texas. The "Houston petrol party." ...

Two ways to register dissatisfaction, one a little more radical than the other: 1)stop buying gas and 2)start buying gas, lots of it. Pour it out on the ground or burn it all up in two years time. Use it all.

Sort of like one poster's idea of putting all the terrorist keywords into every piece of email in order to overload the CIA's ability to monitor or intercept messages.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 11:20 PM

Supply and demand:

Demand has not gone down, to say the least. Not in the US. To pick a small point, why the hell does everybody now use a gas-powered leaf blower? Too weak to rake?

Also, China and India--everybody knows about them, I think--no need to belabor it.


OK, now supply.

I know, let's invade one of the biggest oil producers in the Mideast. That'll help our supply no end.   It'll be exporting more oil than ever within 2 weeks of Saddam's fall.

Anything you say.

And now, our mighty leader is rattling his saber about attacking another big oil producer.

Anonnymouse--sure is interesting we haven't seen much outrage from you about your mighty leader's foreign policy as it has and continues to affect gas prices.

Could it possibly be you are a Bush supporter?

Nah, not a chance.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: pdq
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM

Don,

The "novelty shop bird" you mention was very popular in Arizona some years back. It can continue to slowly bob up and down as long as its beak can dip into a supply of water. I'm not sure if the motivation comes from the weight of the water or from temperature change, but it is a clever idea. Invented by a man with a very high IQ: actor Eddie Albert.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:59 PM

Anybody familiar with Signal Hill, south of Los Angeles?

At one time, if you were driving from, say, Pasadena to Long Beach, you passed through an area called (and still called, as I understand it) Signal Hill. It was like driving through a forest. Only instead of trees, they were oil derricks. You know the classic structures: tall, slender pyramids made of wood framing, oil-soaked and black. Thick as trees in a rain forest. As you drove through this area, the smell of oil was overpowering.

Well, a few years back, while visiting friends in Long Beach, Barbara and I had occasion to drive through the Signal Hill area. The oil derricks are gone. No longer a forest of tall, blackened structures reeking of oil. But just about anyplace you look, there are these odd pumps that look like those drinking birds that you used to be able to buy in novelty stores. They look like a miniature version of Big Bird. If you stand them by a glass of water, they lean over, appear to take a drink, rise upright, then lean over and do it again. Only these things were a whole lot bigger than Big Bird. These gizmos are still pumping oil out of the ground.

People had them in their front yards, I saw one in the parking lot of a convenience store (7-11 or something similar). There was one next to a gas station. I commented at the time that "It looks to me like a vertical monopoly. Out of the ground right into your tank." We saw a number of them in a school playground.

The things were everywhere! And although the overpowering smell had abated, it was still there. The air no longer reeked, but it carried a distinct whiff of oil. I imagine the people who live there eventually get used to it, like a fish gets used to water.

I'd rather not think of this sort of thing in connection to ANWR or other wilderness areas. There are not that many of them left.

Buy a bicycle. Take the bus

Hmm. Seattle used to have electric trolleys, the electricity coming from power dams, but the Powers That Be replaced them some decades back with gasoline and diesel buses. I wonder how they feel about that now?

Time to divorce ourselves from oil. It would eliminate a lot of our current international problems and it would cut way down on environmental (especially atmospheric) pollution. There are lots of possible alternatives. But what's probably holding things up is that the power companies a) don't want to change, just on general principles, and b) they haven't figured out a way to run some of the alternate energy systems through a meter yet.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:59 PM

Scary thought- almost no homeowner in Juneau Alaska owns subsurface rights so if oil were found in our ground I guess we'd either have to move or live cheek by jowl next to the pumps.

Come to think of it- why doesn't Juneau have oil? We don't have much top soil, granite is our underlayment. Is that why?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:51 PM

dude..would u be saying that if Exxon wanted to put an oil rig in your back yard?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:25 PM

I live in Alaska. I sold my car, A Mouse, and I keep my home between 60 and 65 degrees. What else do you do?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:18 PM

Sadly, the "population" saying no aint gonna stop it. I keep tellin' ya, but NO ONE seems to respond with some further elucidation: it's the commodities SPECULATORS responsible for at LEAST 50% of the price of oil per barrel being where it is.

A fall in the Commodities market, which is linked to NOTHING in reality, will kill the oil cash-cow. So MOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! It's dot coms all over, except the oil industry invented the modus operandi. Even a "token" move to drill ANWR, or a "new source" (oil shale), or hybrids will kill this. So y'all go out and buy the new Ford Escape hybrid, or Prius, or the Honda hybrids. Watch what happens. Within five years, hybrids will be the name of the game. Bet on it. 40 mpg on an SUV will be common. This will send all the oil Emirs and Mavens into catatonic fits.

I seriously think someone needs to make the move--even if it only nets 800 days of oil. It WILL have an impact. Meanwhile, I drive my fuel efficient 4-cyl. car. I am, seriously, trying to do my part. How about youse guys, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: number 6
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 09:49 AM

The Oil Companies jack the price up because people will keep on paying for it ... when the populace says 'no more' other opportunists will step in and develop an alternative at a cheaper price (what we are seeing now, with ethanol). It's the way of the free market, which we all enjoy, though you won't admit it.

Right now I'm controlling my driving habits, no more spontaneous day trips .... why, cause I refuse to let the oil companies take anymore of my hard earned cash. I'll live with that. As i said, this situation will be resolved by some opportunitist who will see that there is money to be made with an alternative solution.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Alice
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 09:37 AM

By designing buildings, transportation, manufacturing and appliances to be more energy efficient, we would be using a fraction of the energy we use now. The idea of mining our buildings for energy (reducing the need for energy by design) has been around for decades, but then if we did, the oil moguls would not have gotten their billions. Those who have the oil businesses have ruled.
Efficient and Sustainable use of Resources. Click here

Alice


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 12:56 PM

I may be off-base but I always wonder why nobody seems to consider the amount of jet fuel that is consumed daily and the amount of carbon released into the environment. Last I heard it was about 80 million gallons a day for the U.S. alone. I'm not sure about the amount of carbon but I do know that jets are a significant contributor to greehouse gasses.

I am not suggesting that jets are unnecessary but wonder why nobody ever points a finger at aviation. I would also like to know how much oil the military is using.

Seems to me that the average citizen is supporting the airline industry and the military in more ways than one.

Metchosin - I totally agree that B.C. should be investigating tidal power. The best place would be Johnstone Straight (because of the rapids) but of course that would interfere with the plans to drill for oil. Oil rigs in that area is just plain crazy. As it is, you can only get through that area at slack tide. How do they expect to stabilize an oil rig?

As far as the whales are concerned, I think they would prefer that we harnass tidal energy. We don't have to use the same bay that they use for scratching their bellies. Oil rigs, however, will definitely destroy their habitat.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 12:21 PM

Agreed here too, beardedbruce. Solar as a solution for the northern foggy wet coast of BC and Alaska is a "pipe" dream, but the amount of energy generated by the massive currents and tidal bores of this coast's passages and inlets is mind boggling......and unlike the wind and bright sunshine, absolutely reliable, except at slack tide.

Perhaps keeping a few killer whales from rubbing on the turbines might prove interesting, but not insurrmountable. LOL

To my knowledge, only a very few pilot projects regarding wave motion pistons have been undertaken off the coast of BC, regarding ocean power, but that's not surprising. North America is at least 5 years behind Europe in this area.

The political "seers" of this Province, have recently lifted the long standing moritorium on drilling in the oil and gas reserves off this coast too. Unfortunately they play golf with the petro-business lobbyists, not those advocating environmentally friendly, almost limitless, alternatives. Sooo short sighted.

Petroleum going to be in short supply? Too bad. Where will Harper get Canada's supply of vaseline then.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 11:00 AM

In 1972, I visited and photographed Tom Sauk Mt., the highest point in Missouri, where a reservoir had been built to do exactly what beardedbruce mentioned above...pump water UP at night when there was spare power, and release it thru turbines at peak consumption times.

Unfortuantely, last Dec., there was a failure of one of the dam walls with a serious release of a lot of water and an emergency situation. I see that studies are being done to rebuild and stabilize the site.

The point is, it IS possible to add systems like this to our arsenal of power generating tricks....and ANY extra capacity that has a positive cost-benefit ratio ought to be looked at.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 10:33 AM

>>I'm MAD AS HELL, AND I WON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!! <<

Express yourself in November but don't look to the dems to drill ANWR. It will never happen. Even those in Congress who say they are for it have no intention of drilling ANWR. It's a political gambit. They know it would be stopped and that gives them the ammo to say to their constituents, "Look everyone, we tried to bring you more oil from Alaska but the treehuggers won't let us!" When you know damned well if there was really any oil up there, they'd be drilling it right now.

What I would do in congress is tell the drill advocates, "You want to drill ANWR? Go ahead. But you better make sure you know how much it will cost, you better make sure there's going to be a lot of oil--A LOT of oil--and god help you if you spill any and cause another Exxon Valdez because if you're just blowing smoke up our ass about this, we will take it out of your hide. So go ahead and drill." Nothing would happen.

Let's face it, oil is high because Bush invaded Iraq and disrupted production from the second largest known oil fields. I don't know why people have trouble seeing that. All I keep hearing about is China and India causing the shortage. No, the U.S. is causing the shortage by being an inexcusable oil-hog and for being an inexcusable aggressor nation with its head up its ass.

But your attitude is what makes me sick about America. "Drill, people, so I can live comfortably. I don't care what happens anywhere else as long as I'm getting what I want." We've had enough of that shit. Grow up.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 03:10 AM

perhaps the best plan is to move somewhere oil is plentiful and cheap. saudi arabia seems like fun place. we'll club to gether and buy you a towel.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 01:56 AM

So....after we use up all the environment for every conceivable purpose and there's nothing left to sustain..us..then what do we do, call the Mothership to transport a few billion of us to another planet in order to start the whole process all over again?

We do what they did on Easter Island. We start eating each other. Then we die out and make room for a dominant species with some common sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 12:18 AM

Okay ...so we suck out all the oil everywhere and anywhere we can find it... then we cut off all the mountaintops and dig out all the coal. After that we cut down all the trees, either for burning or to pasture cattle. And surely to God someone has enough forethought to bottle up all this fresh water to sell to us that's melting off the polar ice caps.

So....after we use up all the environment for every conceivable purpose and there's nothing left to sustain..us..then what do we do, call the Mothership to transport a few billion of us to another planet in order to start the whole process all over again?

Oh excuse me, I forgot. We're only thinking the near future..not the long range plan. Fuck surviving to the next millenium.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 10:32 PM

Sounds fishy to me too Bobert. (and yeah--US foreign policy in the Middle East ain't helpin'-but neither is that buttcrack leader in Iran-if you want to talk saber rattling!)


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:54 PM

Well, Bobert, some folks are just hard of herring.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:34 PM

We wouldn't be havin' this discussion if the United Sates had a sane foriegn policy...

The attack on Iraq and now the Bush sabre rattlin' against Iran has destabilized the oil rich Middle East and is the #1 cause of the prices folks pay fir petro....

Just fact!!!

So, I repeat... ANWR is a red herring...


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:28 PM

In another thread I told about Randy, an acquaintance of mine, who put up his own wind turbine, and of the legal hassles the power companies (but not his neighbors, who were rooting for him) put on him. He stuck to his guns, eventually won all the legal battles, and now his house is energy independent and he sells his excess power to the electric company.

A little ingenuity, along with the guts to carry it out.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 09:05 PM

It's possible to produce electricity with a solar collector and sell whatever you don't use to the power companies. It would be a similar setup to the way things are now, except that the electricity would be produced by solar collectors on people's roofs instead of from burning coal or from hydro or nuclear power. The beauty of it is that the space is already disrupted from it's natural state because of having a house or other building on it, so no other natural spaces would need to be disrupted because of it.

http://www.backwoodssolar.com/interests/sellpower.htm

All it takes is a little imagination and some spunk. People can do what is needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 08:39 PM

Don,

And the environmental impact of all those batteries, that will need to be replaced every few years? THAT is a major problem with solar. It would be better to use the daytime power to pump water up into storage, and run it back as hydroelectric, rather than use batteries.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: gnu
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 08:25 PM

Beardedbruce : "...we make an immense number of products, including some pharmaceuticals, from petroleum."

Indeed. But, when I order a tea in a restaurant and they bring me a little plastic jobbie of "milk" and it says "edible oil product" on it, I ask for a taste of the cow. It just ain't right.


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 08:25 PM

Batteries, BB? Use the solar panels to charge them during the day, then use them when you need them.

If you trip over the first obstacle you encounter and then give up, you won't get very far.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 06:45 PM

From today's Bob Park's 'What's New"

2. PASSING GAS: MAYBE HIGH GASOLINE PRICES AREN'T THE PROBLEM.
The outcry over the price at the pump has politicians scurrying to come up with immediate relief: Republican Senators proposed putting a $100 bill under everybody's pillow. This is direct and simple. In fact, it's the perfect response to every complaint, not just high gas prices. Sen. Menendez (D-NJ) called for a 60- day suspension of the federal tax on fuel. That'll work too, but people will be even happier if we make it permanent. After all, the national debt is so far out of control it no longer matters.
Republicans also want to start exploring for oil in wildlife refuges. That won't help much in the short term, but a chance to screw environmentalists doesn't come up every day. In short, American ingenuity will find a way. Or we could just let gas prices rise a little, but that might encourage a change to more fuel efficient cars, public transportation, getting a little exercise, cleaner air, shorter commutes, less traffic...


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 06:02 PM

I have always heard 1/3 hp per square yard, in sunlight. But who needs lights during the day? 8-{E


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Subject: RE: BS: DRILL ANWR now!!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 05:57 PM

I heard a figure that other day, but I can't guarantee it for accuracy. The commentator claimed that if one quarter of the roof space in the United States were covered with solar panels, they would supply all of the country's electrical needs. Curious. Anybody else hear this? Or have any idea?

Don Firth


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