Arts Council ignores UK folk culture

Subject: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Tradsinger
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 12:46 PM

I noticed this in the 'Independent' letters page for 26 April. Comments?

Tradsinger


Arts snobbery

Sir: St George's Day on Sunday gave an opportunity to celebrate English pride, a concept which appears foreign to Arts Council England. This publicly funded quango is guilty of cultural cleansing of English folk traditions. While English folk dance and song is starved of funding, Arts Council England is pumping £5.5m into a new art gallery to promote Contemporary Latin American Art. The Arts Council funds nearly 300 galleries in England but neglects English folk traditions in a way which suggests the nation's arts policy is dictated by elitist snobbery.

BOB RUSSELL MP

(COLCHESTER, LIB DEM) HOUSE OF COMMONS

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: DougR
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 01:27 PM

Tradsinger: The National Endowment for the Arts in the U. S. neglected the folk arts, too, for the first formative years but established a program for folk arts, I believe, in the early 1970's. Art Museums, symphony orchestras, opera companies got the lion's share, and as far as I know, still do. I always suspected that one of the main reasons was those organizations are composed of movers and shakers in the communities where those arts organizations exist. That could easily translate into support at the national level for politicians who are responsible for funding the endowment. Unfortunately, folk art (in the U.S. at least)does not have that strong voice.

It is encouraging, though, that a politician appears to be suggesting more support for folk arts in the British Isles.

DougR

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 01:30 PM

I think arts councils support opera and symphonies because the wives of "movers and shakers" need somewhere to wear their jewelry and fine clothes. Can't wear them to a folk gig.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 02:13 PM

See this account of an interview with Bob Russell.

There does seem to be some consistancy in his approach to life.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Bert
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 02:45 PM

... suggests the nation's arts policy is dictated by elitist snobbery...

So what's new. That has always been the case.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Northerner
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 04:11 PM

He sounds like an interesting man.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 05:13 PM

This snobbery includes the BBC. They broadcast, on national radio, over 150 hours of classical music a week - with every track/performance carefully listed in the radio times; and then give folkmusic ( The Mike Harding Show) an hour a week - and, of course, that hour has to embrace English, Celtic, etc. Things are a lot better these days with access via the web - to the various regional folkmusic programs BUT ...

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 05:27 PM

sounds about right. English traditional folk music has done its fair share of ignoring everybody else.

For many years now contemporary folk songs and the artists who perform them, have been roundly ignored by all the folk establishment - subsidised folk radio and arts council commissions, world council tours, etc. Why the hell should public money support this self serving entity which ignores what goes on in most of the succesful folk clubs in England?

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Ernest
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 05:33 PM

See the positive side of it: folk music can exist without subsidiaries. Classical music can`t. It needs too much infrastructure to be able to sell at prices ordinary people could afford without the money from the government.
Folkies are free!
Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: DougR
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 08:47 PM

You do have a point, Ernest.

DougR

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:00 AM

The feckin BBC also gives more air time to American country music than our own traditional musical hertiage. Mike Harding [ I suspect ] is forced to play every type of acoustic music but the two C/W shows never have to play anything but pop type country music.

eric

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Bert
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 01:11 AM

wld. You say "English traditional folk music has done its fair share of ignoring everybody else" - Now how can MUSIC ignore anyone? EFDSS Maybe, but the music just is.

You're right Doug. Ernest Does have a GOOD point. (Are you SURE you're not a Commie *GRINNING FEINDISHLY*)

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 02:20 AM

Just as a point of information Bob Russell´s Dad was Ewart Russell, bagman to the Morris Ring.

There is another article about thim here which gives more of his background:

http://www.thedonkey.org/Lines/MP_Colchester.html

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 06 - 05:02 PM

The Arts Council support the Musicians In Residence scheme which has several folk and acoustic artists on its books.

The Arts Council support those who get off their backsides and make applications. They don't come looking for you, you go to them.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 May 06 - 06:15 PM

GUEST: you are, I regret to say, completely wrong. The Arts Council very much do suggest to selected people that they might care to apply for something.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: rhyzla
Date: 04 May 06 - 07:55 PM

This thread starts with a quote from the 'Indy' re Arts Council funding for Latin American Arts.

This exact topic was put as a question on Prime Minister's Questions this week. The pm's answer was that he was "sure there was room for both" - meaning Latin American and English Traditional arts - but said nothing about funding - and as usual ,it was treated as trivial - which it probably is!

I agree with comments above, generally, that 'folk' is better to grow and spread organically, and not be artificially funded into something it isn't.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: The Badger
Date: 04 May 06 - 08:11 PM

I can see nothing wrong with millions of government money ( sorry, our money) promoting Latin American arts and music - providing Latin American countries do the same for British Folk Music and arts - South America flooded with Morris teams and melodian players. Marvellous!
Alternatively, scrap the arts council and spend the money more wisely.
Then the music and "arts" people want to see and enjoy will flourish and the elitist groups can pay the full price to endulge themselves.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 06 - 08:12 PM

It's not just folk. A friend of mine wrote a play about his locality in the 50's and applied for a grant to help its staging in that locality. He was turned down, not on the grounds of quality, but because the production was not representative of multiculturalism. When he pointed out it was set in the 50's and the locality was not multicultural at the time his point was dismissed. Basically he could have got a grant if he had re-written history!

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Cobble
Date: 04 May 06 - 08:18 PM

GO BADGER.


               Cobble

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: melodeonboy
Date: 05 May 06 - 06:07 PM

Three cheers for Bob Russell. He raised exactly the same issue in the Commons at Prime Minister's Question Time on Wednesday. Blair's response was smarmy, flippant and dismissive (surprise, surprise!), making it very clear that he didn't think it of any importance.

Blair's idea of supporting British music goes as far as photo opportunities with pop dross such as the Spice Girls (well, hey, they did sell lots of CDs and make loads of money, didn't they?, so they must be good!) or prancing around pretending to be Mick Jagger.

He ain't interested in English folk traditions because they ain't trendy and they don't make oodles of money.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 May 06 - 03:08 AM

I'm not sure why "Weelittledrummer" thinks that "English traditional music" should be supporting singer-songwriters, or why Bert thinks that EFDSS has something to do with it (as a matter of fact, that organisation has encouraged new writers in the idiom for a long time, though it isn't really part of their remit).

That said, it's notoriously difficult to get money out of the Arts Council for anything they think unfashionable. A favourite excuse until relatively recently was that folk music, being an amateur, grass-roots pursuit, didn't require subsidy; although that's no longer policy, there's a persisting attitude that an artform has to be the domain of "properly qualified" professionals (which of course is what the people who allocate funding consider themselves to be) before it is worthy of financial help.

An Arts Council official in my part of the world enquired, (not long ago, and in all seriousness), what the career development structure for Morris dancers was. It simply hadn't occurred to him that there might be legitimate art forms that are not "owned" by professionals.

To an extent, the narrow education that these people have received is to blame. They often seem to think that the mere mention of the word "English" implies some kind of racism. The truth is that, for political and historical reasons too complex to go into here, the cultural establishment in Britain has for centuries favoured imported art-forms at the expense of indigenous ones.

The fact that politicians -and many journalists- so often display a profound ignorance of (and contempt for) anything that does not conform to the bourgeois "art music" model, or, more recently, fashionable "world music" (which appears to include everything except us) is predictable, if depressing. It shows an unforgiveable intellectual laziness, and, not to put too fine a point on it, clear racism where the "folk" culture of one ethnic group is favoured above another.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 06 - 03:19 AM

An Arts Council official in my part of the world enquired ... what the career development structure for Morris dancers was

Well, you start off as a trainee, after several years you get promoted to performer and with sufficient skill you get to be a Betsy, but of course only about 1 in seven make it ..

If that's what it takes to get a grant, so be it! (It's probably wiser not to say one of the top jobs goes to a fool)

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Bugsy
Date: 06 May 06 - 06:00 AM

We had the same problem with the arts council here in Australia some years ago. Their argument was that Folk music and Dance was not an "Art", it was a "Social Phenomenon", which would survive without funding whereas Ballet & Opera wouldn't.

Makes you wonder don't it?

Cheers


Bugsy

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 06 - 06:19 AM

Lovely point, Bugsy! Lots of people like folk music so it doesn't need supporting whereas not many people attend ballet and opera so lets throw all the money at that? Sounds like government comittess are the same the world over:-)

WLD - I am also interested in knowing what you mean by traditional English folk music ignoring everyone else. Can you explain?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 May 06 - 06:21 AM

Like Malcolm Douglas, I cant really follow Wee Little Drummer's point earlier, saying that the traditional folk music world should be supporting contemporary songwriting. They should surely not be competing for the same pot of money, they are quite different animals. The support for folk music has the same justification as making sure Ely cathedral doesnt fall down, trying to ensure farming practises keep the landscape in good heart, supporting vernacular architecture and other traditional arts/crafts. Everything will turn to dust and a distant memory if it doesnt get some support,from some people somehow; and in the case of music, an Arts Council grant is one of the established mechanisms to give this support and encouragemnet.
    Contemporary music is a different sort of thing, like the London Eye, Tesco's, or whatever. They too need support(if you happen to want them that is, I like the Eye, not so keen on Tesco's). Everything needs support, otherwise it falls down. But not from the same pot of money. You cant demand that CAMRA supports the manufacture of blue WKD vodka drinks, it's not their thing. It's the same wth people who like traditional music. If they happen to like contemporary music(most of them do), then they can support it as well. But there's no logical reason why they should have to. And,very emphatically, if someone in their infinite wisdom earmarks some money to support traditional folk arts, it should not be diverted into supporting the opposite.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 06 - 12:02 PM

Hear Hear Greg.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: GUEST,REAL folk and world music lover
Date: 07 May 06 - 01:43 AM

The Arts Council is corrupt. Look at this - Greg Stephens, I think you might be particularly interested :

http://www.hamikurd.com/index_files/HullsMusicScene.htm

This article was originally posted on another website but they were bullied into taking it down...

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: oombanjo
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:37 AM

If the arts council will not support the progression of English/ British folk roots we could always approach Elton John or Paul Mac to for support, as I understand it, the larger part of PRS goes to them having bought up all the rights to trad folk and others

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 May 06 - 04:02 AM

Guest - It's a pretty badly written article. But I would like to see some subsidy and some effort devoted to preserving and presenting the English traditions.

Oombanjo - there are no rights in the sense of copyrights to trad folk, by definition for there is no known author, and if there were (s)he would ahve been ded for more than 70 years. There may be rights in an arrangement of music or words that are out of copyright, but that's not a problem - do a different arrangemetn.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Louisey
Date: 07 May 06 - 04:12 AM

As a young musician/singer, I don't know a huge amount about the technicalities of the funding etc, but I enjoy the laid-back attitude of folk. Surely with funding comes rules and regulations? I like it raw, unpolished and do-it-yourself!! And, afterall, folk has lasted ok this long on it's own two feet...

And with regards to the funding Latin American Art projects, it seems odd that a government would completely ignore its own heritage, but it comes as no surprise.

Apologies if I've missed the point entirely...

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 May 06 - 06:12 AM

There is a problem with saying "oh, folk is struggling along OK, it'll all be all right, let's be laid back". Which is that once some funding goes to jazz, or samba, or whatever,an imbalance in earnings happens, between the subsidised jazzer, and the unsubsidised folkie. Or say they start funding folk a bit: once a few folkies have their snouts in the trough, you create a caste system, where Tom gets the door money plus a fat bag of government money, but poor old Dick and Harry only get the door money. And this imbalance can create a kind of unpleasantly competitive and rancourous atmosphere.
    A lot of good can come from funding, but also a lot of harm. A big part of the harm is the obvious "unfairness" that I have just referred to: "unfair" in the sense that funding quite obviously does not correlate very closely with quality of work. The Arts Council, naturally, claims to monitor things and assess them or whatever: but if that were really the case, would they have approved a grant to a Mr Juan Kerr, as they did on one memorable ocasion?
    I find the main problem is not this unfairness, actually, but the impermanence of official policies and personnel (I am not referring here only to Arts Council people, but also local authority arts coordinators and all similar posts). Folk music matures and changes slowly, and is deeprooted. A typical folk developer may have have been creating organic musical structures in a region for ten, twenty, thirty or forty years. But the employed official who assesses applications from this folkie will typically have moved into the area a couple of years before, and will be moving on to a new job in another couple. And of course, when the official moved in, he or she will have brought with them their own complex web of connections with sisters, cousins, aunts, ex-partners, ex-colleagues etc etc. Who, for such is the way of the world, may well move in themselves and, surprise surprise, pick up a few plums out of the pie.
    This is of course not a problem specific to folk music. But I think folk is more susceptible to it than other art forms, due to the combination of the funding officers' unfamiliarity with the scene, and the slow growth of something genuinely folk (as compared to various quick-hit "community" projects which have more superficial short-term bangs per buck).
    This is not a problem with an obvious solution. It is inbuilt due to the career structure and training methods in the world of arts administration. Budding folk musicians might be better advised to busk: it is at least honest.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Azizi
Date: 07 May 06 - 06:37 PM

DMcG, what's a Betsy?
{from your comment which I got was snark: "Well, you start off as a trainee, after several years you get promoted to performer and with sufficient skill you get to be a Betsy..."}

****

With regard to funding folk art, my adopted state has certain governmental departments that provide competitive grants to individual folk artists, folk groups, and those who reseach/and provide commentary on folk arts. Those departments are the Pennsylvania Council on the Arts, the Pennsylvania Council on the Humanities, and the Pennsylvania Historical & Museum Commission. However, because it is competitive, I believe it is difficult for individuals or groups to receive small or larger size grants {about $300 to $5,000 or so, if I'm not mistaken} unless they have built up a reputation for quality "work" in their communities.

In addition to these governmental grants, because my city is home base for a number of large, multi-national corporations, those corporations also provide funding for the arts, including some funding for what are called "community based projects". Some of these projects would be considered folk arts. But again, though it's not easy to get this funding, it can be done.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 06 - 02:45 AM

Google takes me to a place witha picture (amongst others) of aBetsy .

A Betsy is a morrisman dressed as a woman, sometimes said to represent Maid Marian or a witch.

What female morris sides do I don't know.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 06 - 06:20 AM

The role of a Betsy is usually (always?) comic: they generally act the fool and pretend to be incompetent or decide to have a word with their 'son' and wander into the middle of complex figures undertaken with the rest of the dancers. As you might expect, in practice they have to be at least as skilled dancers as the rest of the team.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Azizi
Date: 08 May 06 - 07:31 AM

Richard Bridge and DMcG, thanks for that fascinating information about the "Betsy" dancer.

I'm sure there are many people like myself-where ever we live- who love to learn about the traditional folk arts of our cultures and other cultures.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 06 - 07:44 AM

I'd like to know what female sides do... What's the name of the self professed lesbian side from (hell, I can't remember, was it LA or San Francisco?)? Do they have a Benny in stead of a Betsy?

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: gnomad
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:27 AM

As regards funding, it is frustrating that folk gets ignored, and it feels unfair, but I feel that it also has its advantages.

Whoever pays the piper proverbially calls the tune.

If "Official" money is spent then with it comes control (just ask anyone involved in a project which has received, or even just sought, National Lottery funding) they expect a degree of influence in exchange for their cash. As folk arts are by, of, and for, the populace at large they are almost bound to include a degree of subversion, this will run counter to the official line so they will try to stop it. I do feel that, on the whole, it is better that they keep the funds, and we keep our freedom of expression.

Turning to Betsy for a moment, she, the fool, and any animals used, form a sort of bridge between the audience and the performance. The roles need to be undertaken by skilled dancers as the costumes are frequently cumbersome (many animal costumes allow only restricted peripheral vision, and poor ventilation) the characters will dance independently through a dance set in mid-performance without breaking it up. This takes skill, and sometimes quite a bit of nerve when sticks or swords are in rapid movement. The quality of this work can make or break a performance.
There used to be (maybe still is) a Fools and Animals Union within the Morris Ring, dunno if I got the title correct as I was never part of it, I understand that their meetings were particularly hilarious affairs.

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:18 AM

The Fools and Animals hold an annual Unconvention

Subject: RE: Arts Council ignores UK folk culture
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 May 06 - 10:09 AM

I think the thread title is too much of a blanket statement. The Arts Councils of England, Scotland, N Ireland and Wales all have different policies. I've been reviewing the Scottish ones recently and traditional musics seem to be well covered compared, perhaps, to other areas of the UK. Wales has been very poor in the past, recently improved, but now we're losing some ground ... and that's largely due to a) current disagreements between our National Assembly and Arts Council for Wales, b) cuts in Lottery funding and c) the looming black hole of the Olympics (as well as all the other glamour projects - most Millenium related - which have top sliced community arts projects.)

I've had better luck with ACW - including a £5000 grant jointly from ACW and PRSF - than I've had with the other Lottery distributors or private trusts ...

siân