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Subject: Folklore: Armchair Experts: Hurlers on the Ditch? From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 17 May 06 - 08:08 PM The Bucks was written in D, of course (SHEESH!!!..., as the Americans say...) Saw a very famous piper wince when Martin Quinn played it on the box in A, though... food for thought! I am really interested in discussing the apparently late lamented East Clare tradition, Michael Coleman notwithstanding..., The Bothy Band, for good or ill?, and all the rest of that bullshit that so-called experts like to profess. If you know how to slap it back in their face, sorefingers, no amount of text book geniuses will ever be able to pluss you, never mind non-pluss. B. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Declan Date: 17 May 06 - 01:28 PM I suspect it was the second part of the answer Brendy was waiting for. E would be a quite unusual key for an Irish tune, especially around East Galway, I'd say, where you're more likely to get tunes in flat keys like B or C. But if anyone has a definitive recording of the first time it was played, we'll all agree that that was the original key and, I suspect, continue to play it in D. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Mu From: ard mhacha Date: 17 May 06 - 11:45 AM Just come on to this Thread, and I see Sorefingers is having problems with Brendy and its meaning, is it really with the trouble to explain?, as one prick of a Policeman at London Airport asked what my name was in English, I told him to find out Hitlers equviliant in English. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: manitas_at_work Date: 17 May 06 - 09:37 AM It was, of course, written in D but, as usual, the fiddles were tuned up to keep out the pipers and box players. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: GUEST Date: 17 May 06 - 09:35 AM The "Bucks" composed in E ? - Proof, please. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 16 May 06 - 01:44 PM 10 out of 10, Roger. The answer I've been waiting for.... B. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: The Shambles Date: 16 May 06 - 05:32 AM What key was The Bucks of Oranmore originally written in? E? Does it matter? It is how you play the music now that matters. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: redsnapper Date: 12 May 06 - 04:38 AM Sorefingers, I have have had the pleasure of playing music once with Brendy in Norn Iron (I changed my Mudcat name since then but he will probably know who I am as we've PM'ed a few times) and I can can assure you that he very much knows his tunes, songs and settings. redsnapper |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 12 May 06 - 04:26 AM I was responding to what I considered to be a highly political post in the thread where it was made. I know..., I was hoping no-one would have risen to it. To get back to the music (from which I never left, incidentally), I have asked sorefingers some questions: musical questions. About versions and settings. I'm still waiting.... B. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Declan Date: 11 May 06 - 01:40 PM Brendy, I was responding to what I considered to be a highly political post in the thread where it was made. It was not my choice to place this thread above the line. Although there is a musical topic buried somewhere in this thread, I think the BS: prefix would be appropriate for a lot of what has been said so far. To get back to the music, in my opinion the setting of a tune is a matter for the person who starts the tune on the occasion it is being played. Whether that setting was first played forty years, forty minutes or forty seconds ago does not make it any more correct or authentic. Having said that, it is often the practice of musicians to choose to play a tune in a particular setting, as a mark of respect to a particular musician, or style, or just out of simple preference. This is fine by me too, whether that musician is Willie Clancy or Patsy Tuohy or Tommy Potts or Tommy Peoples or even (God forbid :-)) Paddy Moloney or Frankie Gavin. It would be a very dull world if there was only one 'authorised' version of how to play a particular tune. If they ever introduce prohibition of that kind you'll find me playing in the speakeasy. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Playing a bodhran with a penknife From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 10 May 06 - 08:51 PM And with greatest respect, Declan, gratuitous politics belongs below the line.... (.... Oh, please... I started out with the intention of delivering the greatest punchline in the history of the Mudcat....) Come on, sorefingers...., no gain without pain B. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Declan Date: 10 May 06 - 08:04 PM I must apologise to the people in the sessions that sorefingers frequents for labelling them idiots above. If they behave in the way that was originally described, then the comment still stands. However having followed the thread I'm no longer sure that this is the case. Not everyone who speaks the Irish language sympathises with phsical force republicanism - some do, some don't, but to imply everyone does is outrageous, and to use a word which has been over used in this thread - WRONG. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 10 May 06 - 07:43 PM ... talking to sorebollocks of course... B. |
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Subject: Folklore: Knowing the 1st thing about Irish Music From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 10 May 06 - 07:25 PM Name me the 5 versions of 'The Pinch of Snuff' as played around Feakle, Co Clare? B. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Brían Date: 10 May 06 - 06:36 PM I am not going to dignify that with a response. Go maith Dia ort. Brían |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Mu From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 10 May 06 - 06:12 PM "Ask a Belfast person; or indeed anyone from Ireland, what Brendy is short for, and you would in no small measure be be put in the way of things on that score as well" Understanding and Brendy that all Belfast knows.... " in no samll measure.... " You don't know diddle about versions/settings, the topic here. You just had to put your nose in because you thought you could shove yer bankrupt hate mongering vomit into the debate. Besides since Donaldson puked up the truth the entire bullymovement in N Iron is soiling their pants. And while I'm at it, bhoyo, talkin Oirish in my company while there are many here who don't, tells me all I need to know about you and your fake personas. Tiggin that before you come back 4 more. Now gwan away wi yerself while you have enough diginity left to come back unscarred at a later time, else I will have to have ye ran down and INSPECTED! |
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Subject: "We'll have none of that Bothy Band stuff in here" From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 10 May 06 - 02:26 PM Isn't that always the quandry, Declan? ... trying to figure out what someone means....? And indeed, as you so eloquently prove; attention to detail is important It is also why I (for my part) find it hard to figure out why sorefingers has such difficulty with, for instance, time signatures. It would be interesting to hear his take on De Danann's 'Hey Jude', and what he thought Sean Maguire was up to all that time... ;-) B. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Declan Date: 10 May 06 - 01:20 PM Brendy, Were you answering the question or signing your note? D. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Vincent Griffin and the key of D# From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 10 May 06 - 12:03 PM Asking me, or telling me, Roger? B. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: The Shambles Date: 10 May 06 - 11:53 AM What key was The Bucks of Oranmore originally written in? E? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: The influence of Paddy Canny From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 10 May 06 - 11:37 AM Agus is fíor duitse ár ndóigh, a Bhrían Ní bhfuil aithne aige/acu, orm gur follas. B. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Brían Date: 09 May 06 - 11:24 PM Ná bac leo. Tá fhios a'am go dtaitníonn siad go mór a bheith ag argóint leo féin. Brían |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Coleman and The Tulla Ceili Band From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 09 May 06 - 09:54 PM Oh... lets' see now... What does 'Johnny' mean? Freddy? Paddy, why not? Charley, Mikey, Peggy? Now given all that, plus your razor-sharp sensitivities on things Hibernic, perhaps you could make the connection. I do like to give others the opportunity to metaphorically catch fish, instead of buying them the equivilent of an Anchovy pizza Now, when you've exhausted all the culinary permutations, and their relationship or otherwise to the price of carrots in Singapore, perhaps you could tell me this.... What key was The Bucks of Oranmore originally written in? B. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Mu From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 09 May 06 - 06:32 PM Your name. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 09 May 06 - 01:38 AM What does what mean? B. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Mu From: GUEST,sorererfingers Date: 08 May 06 - 09:05 PM Tell us what does it mean to you? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 08 May 06 - 08:42 PM As I said, sorefingers, 'levels of understanding' Ask a Belfast person; or indeed anyone from Ireland, what Brendy is short for, and you would in no small measure be be put in the way of things on that score as well. ... not doing too well here sorefingers, are you?<\i> B. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Mu From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 08 May 06 - 06:04 PM By the way, my fingers get sore from time to time too, but I have no need to remind myself (nor, I'm sure, do many others around here) of this fact every time we post. No, but you have to sign something doncha? and yours, Brendy, makes absolutely no sense at all, *B*r*e*n*d*y*! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Paddy Moloney - Inspiration to many From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 07 May 06 - 10:27 PM Paddy & the bhoys enjoy themselves, they don't need your money, and just do what they feel like doing with the music. Not always my kind of stuff, mind you, but I do admire musicians who are willing to explore possibilities. If someone were to tell me that a version of a tun I was playing was WRONG, I would, in no small measure give the unfortunate person a touch of pedigree, sorefingers. Knowledge is your great saviour in these situations, sorefingers, and you have quite plainly shown that you may need to read up a bit more. We're talkng levels of understanding here, sorefingers; if you need it explained to you, you don't understand. If you don't understand, no amount of explaining will ever make it clearer. By the way, my fingers get sore from time to time too, but I have no need to remind myself (nor, I'm sure, do many others around here) of this fact every time we post. B. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Cluin Date: 07 May 06 - 02:02 AM Old joke: Q. Why did the chicken cross the road? A. To record with the Chieftains. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Mu From: GUEST,sorfingers Date: 07 May 06 - 01:16 AM Thanks Brian. Also, in case anybody cares, the tune played by the Corrs is sometimes called "The Ivy Leaf" but OC you would never guess that if you heard other players at it - eg Mary Bergen Feadog Stain 2 for example. Also recorded as "The Day I Met Tom Moylan". Tom might be related to Terry Moylan of NPU; if so, it surely was a great day, as Terry is a hoot both in person and to read. The first Polka they played, I know from way back, but I never heard a name for it except we used call it the Killkenny Polka - probably because the we learned off of a Killkenny musician. The second one is popular fiddle polka and not, I notice, a rare Sliabh Luachra tune. Suppose those folks have to kill sombody, Kenny would be as good as the next. ( silly joke ) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Brían Date: 07 May 06 - 12:32 AM You're right. Paddy does break social conventions by handling his fipple in public. I have seen him do that at every performane I have seen them in. Thanks for the video link. Brían |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Mu From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 06 May 06 - 11:15 PM Oopz fprgot to put the link Chieftains video clip |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Mu From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 06 May 06 - 11:10 PM Some great comments here and I will be trying some of the suggestions. BTW as Brian here shows so well, we cannot ignore recorded/broadcast material. Fair enough, but must we copy them that closely there is no other version permitted? I think not. Besides some tunes - ragtime for example - are supposed to be personalised and when you listen to Jazz you can hear how different those interpretations can become. Bandwagoning is almost gauranteed amoung performers today and that alone is why they do it. Ie posing and all that good stuff. In case you think I am picking on them too much, below is a link to the Chieftains where you can hear them play a few tunes along with friends. The clip is educational when you can see how Paddy fidgets with his fipple while Matt Molloy, in cracking good form, takes off on a tune. Also you see Martin Faye watch and enjoy the Corrs play a tune previously recorded by the boys. Its a great clip and I wish I had the original. Den - Oirish is what Ozzies and folks in the UK esp the home counties call Irish. Oirish music is what people who speak with that peculiar accent tend to play. Musak is canned music, or as we here call it, Elevatormusic. Martin Ryan, you are a tonic! Nawt moh to b sed! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Brían Date: 04 May 06 - 03:04 PM One would have to be as old as Methuselah or live in a seperatist colony to not have had one's repetoire affected by the advent of musical recordings. Most humans, not wanting to work harder than they have to learn in the most expeditious fashion available to them. If one does not have access to regular musical sessions, it isn't long before one tires of rummaging through dresser drawers looking for unlabelled cassette tapes for that odd jig or reel. It is far easier to reach for a CD where all the tunes are labelled and one can skip or repeat a tune as needed. I must say, as for the sessions I go to, ther is plenty of time to play a rare tune or unusual setting of a common tune when musicians are getting up to fill their glasses or empty their bladders. Most musicians I know would consder it an insult to tell someone they were playing a tune wrong. I believe the correct expression would be variant. Brían |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Big Mick Date: 03 May 06 - 09:39 AM I have stopped into this thread several times and I am switched if I can figure out what the point is. Sounds to me like you are holding Moloney and company responsible for the fact that folks like their music. You attack CD's like "Another Country" and "Long Black Veil" simply because Moloney, like any good musician, decided to stretch his abilities, have a party, and show the similarities (borne of a common root) of different forms. If I am wrong and you are upset at those for whom their journey into the realms of this genre begins and ends with The Chieftains, fair enough. But many folks are like that, in fact I would venture guess that the vast majority are. And if you have just a few preferences, these lads ain't a bad one to be in the mix. My own musical library is vast and my tastes run deep in the various forms of Irish and Scottish music. But I enjoy Paddy and the lads as well as any out there. He has done as much or more as anyone to promote our music to the broader audience. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Den Date: 03 May 06 - 08:36 AM Might be time to pack up your whistle and play with someone your own age. What the fuck is Oirish music? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Ernest Date: 03 May 06 - 04:09 AM sorefingers, I was just quoting you. Remember, you used the word "wrong". People - especially non-pro`s who just make music for a pastime - will often try to master the style of their favourite musicians. That is only natural. Your reference to the blues experts suggests that this is to some extent a matter of fashion. Could it be that the people you play with don`t know all the stuff you prefer? Some people might not be part of the folk scene that long. In that case, you could tape some stuff for them so they would be able to experience a different approach. Best Ernest |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Mu From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 02 May 06 - 09:51 PM Ernest, you have made it even more difficult for me now! I am not trying to force people to play any particular way, I am lamenting the lack of depth among musicians who select and ape the Chieftains. It reminds me of the days when Folk nights were dominated by Blues experts who copied recordings. Bandwagons and all that. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: GUEST,Mac Nac Feagle Date: 02 May 06 - 11:45 AM Gaun yirsel' , Paddy !! http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/musicscotland/celticroots/standard/trad_awards/log2results/index.shtml |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Ernest Date: 02 May 06 - 05:06 AM Sorefingers, when you write in your post of May 1st, 10:40 PM that "a great deal of the stuff on the Chieftains recordings is just plain WRONG" it sounds as if you want to suggest that the way you play it is the (only?) right way. You are the one sounding like a "Commisar of Oirish Music" now. Regards Ernest |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Aaron Aardvark Date: 02 May 06 - 03:15 AM Certainly not true where I play Irish music, sorefingers... far from it. Paddy Moloney has, however, has become a sort of Ayatollah in the way that he pushes the Chieftains (who are all individually hugely talented and himself, but I certainly don't think their style or settings have particularly predominated, at least not in these parts. I agree with DMcG about the LPs. Aaron |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: The Shambles Date: 02 May 06 - 02:46 AM If I could play only half as wrong as Paddy and Co - I would be happy. There is no such thing as music being right or wrong - it is just a matter of personal taste. Traditional forms of music are just like rivers - you may like the view from the point you jumped in - but the river will just keep on flowing. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Mu From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 01 May 06 - 10:40 PM If its that bad Declan, I should just bring me Boombox and Kareokee Orish Musak along with the rest, but OC it isn't quite that bad. Guest you hit the nail right on the head, except that over in this locality the monster is so internalised they don't even know how to 'rhythm' on any thing behind a reel - never mind a simple jig. Once for a laugh I gave a Bowroaran a CD of pre Chieftain days which has a Tambourine in the background. Not only did the preson continue to belive the instrument was a Bodhran, they could not get the rhythm down. I think it was Patrick Kelly ( Irish Fiddler ) who said 'the worst thing that ever happened to Clare music was the arrival of Coleman recordings'. It's still a good point today, but now it's not Coleman that is twisting the life out of Traditional Irish Music, but the sqauikification of it by Mr Paddy Moloney, Uillean Piper and Commisar of the Chieftains as well as all those hypnotised by the falsehood that emanated from his youthfull but mistaken exuberance. A great deal of the stuff on the Chieftains recordings is just plain WRONG, Declan! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: GUEST,Brían Date: 01 May 06 - 10:32 PM I live on the American side of the pond and I don't find the sessions I go to Cheiftainated any more than they are influenced by the Boys of the Lough, Altan, Lughnasa, or any other group that is popular at the time. as for being corrected for a version of a tune, I have had native Irish speaking singers from Connemara tell me I was singing a song "incorrectly" or even better, that the song was not even traditional even though I had learned the songs from recordings of native speakers, usually from Irish National Archives. I am not talking about my grammar or pronounciation, criticism I would take gladly. The criticism usually originated from the the fact that the version I was singing was not the one they learned from their parents or at school. I actually found this to be a rather clever, win-win way of harvesting songs. The singers took me under their wing as a student. I added versions of songs to my repetoire that most of the musicians I knew didn't have in their collections. Brían |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Mu From: GUEST Date: 01 May 06 - 11:58 AM Suggest that you give a little sermon before you play your first tune of the night, first telling the dears that session tunes number in the 100s of thousands and it's a shame that in recent years the uninformed have whittled the list down to 50 or less published versions and run around lecturing players that their local tune or variation "isn't right". Then start introducing yer first tune, telling the little buggers that 'now this may sound similar to something you know, but it's not, I've been playing it since aught-six, it's called "whatever", yer welcome to bang along but it's NOT the tune you're familiar with. Later in the evening introduce a Non-Irish tune by telling the dears that old house-ceili-ing custom included many pieces from other lands, the point is to share good music and story, not to be some kind of ethnic purity committee. Before long you're a revered expert they fawn over like they do Mick Moloney! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: DMcG Date: 01 May 06 - 07:42 AM in most places (certainly on this side of the Atlantic), the phenomenon you are discussing does not tend to exist If you move away from "domination of a session by the Chieftains' music" to "domination of a session by a specific source" then I have known it happen with groups that slavishly follow Carthy:Waterson interpretations of songs and similarly on Copper Family Songs. What is quite odd is that the Carthys, Watersons and Bob Copper at least - and I bet its true of the Chieftain's as well - would treat that approach with short shrift. But Declan is quite right: the problem lies with the session players or singers, not with the source. (I have no problem with the Chieftains being successful by the way, and have seen them in concert quite a few times, including in the last couple of years.) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: Declan Date: 01 May 06 - 06:44 AM Lets get a bit of perspective here. Firstly you appear to be generalising from a particular experience you have in your part of the US. The fact that people didn't undwerstand what you are saying is that in most places (certainly on this side of the Atlantic), the phenomenon you are discussing does not tend to exist. If there are idiots who behave like this in your local sessions then you have my sympathies. However it is hardly down to Paddy Maloney and the boys. What they have done is to record their take on Irish Music, to market it and make it popular. In doing so they have committed what seems to me to be the biggest crime that can be committed in the folk community - they were successful. The blame for the idiots behavior is fairly and squarely down to the idiots themselves. I love the iPaddy idea by the way. I saw a great picture of an Orangeman in Northern Irelnd on last 12th of July in full regalia with a set of headphones in his ears. The Caption was "iProd". |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Mu From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 30 Apr 06 - 02:58 PM I feel misunderstood and I just have to try again. Once upon a time a folk evening included singing and playing. The ammount of each depended on the artists available, but you could almost depend to it that there would be some variety in the evening. Some Blues, some Sea Shanties, some tunes and some other stuff. Amoung the tunes I used hear in those long gone days was one Irish dance tune called "The Job Of Journey Work" which would occasionaly turn up being played on the Tinwhistle, or "The Sally Gardens" usualy played on an Accordion. It ain't that complicated to explain, so I am hoping the reader might recall those days and those that don't might like to get load of Floggin Molly for guidelines. Later after we had been Chieftainified we ceased to hear anything BUT Irish tunes and only CHIEFTAIN settings or versions. So when I go out here in the US to a jam and begin to play on the Timwhistle "The Job Of Journeywork" invariably I get interrupted with various expert comments as to me being 'wrong' It turns out that the Chieftains recorded this tune in their own peculiar fashion WHICH IS NOT like the version in most books I ever seen and not like the version recorded and played all over the place before their time. But its not JUST this tune. There used be a popular jig tune we called "The Cat In The Corner" which sounds vaguely like "The Rakes Of Kildare" BUT ISN'T THE SAME TUNE, and is far far better and fun to play as well. Several times I have been stopped with comments like ' we don't play IT that way here' and the expert goes off into the key of Aminor with "The Rakes...". In fact if I were to list the whole shebang of tunes it would cover several pages. Yes Irish dance tunes make for a little bit of variety but not just CHIEFTIAN versions, and yes Irish tunes make for more variety if they are NOT Chieftain versions. But more tunes should also include the many fine trad English ( Morris etc ), Welsh ( example Morfad Rhudlan SP?), Scottish ( all pre Cheiftain times are unpolluted eg Jack Evans ), ragtime tunes, gypsie tunes ( since the fiddle is now popular in Folks meetings) and so on. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: IPaddy Molony Commisar of Orirish Musak? From: MartinRyan Date: 30 Apr 06 - 08:26 AM iPaddy - holds 10,000 tunes - but they all sound the same.... I'll pick up me caubeen at the (half-)door... Regards |
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