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The 'Artistic' Temperament-

Peter T. 10 May 06 - 11:04 PM
Elmer Fudd 10 May 06 - 08:49 PM
Ebbie 10 May 06 - 08:31 PM
Elmer Fudd 10 May 06 - 08:31 PM
Elmer Fudd 09 May 06 - 11:02 PM
GUEST 09 May 06 - 09:14 PM
Ebbie 09 May 06 - 09:02 PM
Elmer Fudd 09 May 06 - 08:00 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 May 06 - 07:51 PM
Elmer Fudd 09 May 06 - 07:25 PM
alanabit 09 May 06 - 05:32 PM
Big Al Whittle 08 May 06 - 08:43 PM
Don Firth 07 May 06 - 08:58 PM
Elmer Fudd 07 May 06 - 03:34 PM
Peter T. 07 May 06 - 02:19 PM
Elmer Fudd 06 May 06 - 11:14 PM
Peter T. 06 May 06 - 10:10 PM
Elmer Fudd 06 May 06 - 09:02 PM
John Hardly 06 May 06 - 09:38 AM
Peter T. 06 May 06 - 07:39 AM
hesperis 06 May 06 - 03:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 05 May 06 - 09:38 PM
Elmer Fudd 05 May 06 - 09:23 PM
GUEST 05 May 06 - 08:48 PM
Elmer Fudd 05 May 06 - 08:29 PM
GUEST 05 May 06 - 01:58 PM
Elmer Fudd 04 May 06 - 04:45 PM
melodeonboy 04 May 06 - 03:13 PM
Leadfingers 04 May 06 - 02:17 PM
Leadfingers 04 May 06 - 02:13 PM
hesperis 04 May 06 - 12:49 PM
GUEST 04 May 06 - 12:47 PM
John Hardly 04 May 06 - 10:54 AM
Peter T. 03 May 06 - 04:41 PM
melodeonboy 03 May 06 - 02:41 PM
Don Firth 03 May 06 - 01:29 PM
Elmer Fudd 03 May 06 - 12:30 PM
Peter T. 03 May 06 - 10:40 AM
Peace 03 May 06 - 10:21 AM
Elmer Fudd 02 May 06 - 08:49 PM
GUEST 02 May 06 - 07:37 PM
Peace 02 May 06 - 07:23 PM
Elmer Fudd 02 May 06 - 07:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 May 06 - 06:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 May 06 - 05:54 PM
number 6 02 May 06 - 05:49 PM
Peace 02 May 06 - 05:38 PM
melodeonboy 02 May 06 - 05:23 PM
John Hardly 02 May 06 - 05:12 PM
GUEST 02 May 06 - 04:59 PM
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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 May 06 - 11:04 PM

I think it was said here before, but it seems to me that a lot of artists are trying to create a wholeness or fix something in their artistic life that was broken, or won't mend in real life.   But some people (Picasso again) seem to be just playing for the love of it.


yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:49 PM

Looks like we were cross-posting, Ebbie. I didn't say my self-perceptions are the Truth with a capital "T," but, for better or worse, they are personal banshees that drive my creative motor.

Entire religions are based upon the notion that all humankind possesses an essential flaw. We certainly live in a society that screams at us that we're not complete unless we buy this or that material thing, from mouthwash to cars, to make us happy and whole.

To get lofty about it all once again, I think it comes down to the human conundrum of integrating spirit into matter--of expressing our glorious, most beautiful visions through our clumsy, ache-y, aging, endlessly annoying if not downright miserable bodies and this veil of tears we live in.

As Gully Jimson said so eloquently in "The Horse's Mouth" by Joyce Carey,

"When it's raining shitstones, art is your only umbrella."

: > ) Elmer


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:31 PM

I tend to think that we each exist in multiple layers. You may think, Elmer, that you are trying to compensate for your utterly unredeemed self. But higher - or lower - than that level may be another one that says that you are among the enlightened ones who are here to show us the way. *G*

The reason I say that is because there are times when I think that I'm talented and creative and wise beyond my years (now that I'm 'older', that one is hard to put into the equation. *G*). On the other hand I sometimes KNOW that I'm substandard and barely functioning above the 'trainable' level. And that everyone else has known that about me all along. *G*

So which is true? Probably neither one.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:31 PM

Whoopa. Was the above too dark an act to follow?

Not to worry. To all but those very few who know me best I am reasonably sane and emotionally de-clawed. It is only the deep cover of the internet that elicits such raw confessions to strangers.

Why do you create music/songs/art/ writing/performances/whatever?

E.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 09 May 06 - 11:02 PM

Been pondering your question, Ebbie. It's one for which there is probably a different answer, or a variation on a few basic themes, for each person. I'd be interested in knowing why you make music and engage in your creative pursuits. You must have been thinking about it to post the question.

Also, the answers, if honest, would undoubedly be quite self-revelatory. So I'll be the first (actually the second; someone else took the plunge under the anonymity of the "Guest" handle) to jump off that bridge:

I create because deep down under all the layers of societal niceties I perceive myself as essentially flawed, ugly, and not quite worthy of the title, "human." Ultimately, I try to create things of beauty and harmony because those qualities are so opposite to the way I feel about myself.

Elmer


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:14 PM

...him/herself.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 May 06 - 09:02 PM

I haven't been posting much this last while but I really enjoy the exploratory tone of this thread. Thanks.

To toss a crumb to follow, here's a thought:

You know how they say that many of us go into professions that we ourselves need? As in psychiatry- - the practictioner wants to understand her or himself better so s/he studies it and gets a degree in it and practices the profession.

Taking that premise to be true, what is it that the artist is trying to express or to learn or to expose or to hide?


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:00 PM

Heavy rejection of one sort or another is endemic to the arts. It tend to render many of us just a titch grouchy and jaundiced as the years roll by, in private if nowhere else.

I know whereof I speak.

E.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:51 PM

some nights, mediocre would be high praise. some places just bring out the darnright bad in me!

I think part of bitterness that often been detected (and resented) in my communications on the mudcat is the fact that I've always had to play tough gigs for a living. In fact I think most folk music that doesn't have that seasoning that comes from tough audiences is hardly worth the name folk music and comes out as impossibly twee.

Occasionally of course you don't want to fight for your audiences attention, but there is something very insipid about those artists (so beloved of our current crop of folk djs in England)who have always been able to take devoted fans as a given.

Most of us who live in the real unsubsidised world of professional musicianing fight hard for the self respect that the world is very slow to give us. This can be mistaken for arrogance.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:25 PM

One of the points many have made here is that there is not one, stereotypical artistic temperament. There are plenty of even-tempered, plodding geniuses as well as histrionic drama queens, along with a wide range of other behaviors. But yeah, in the arts there always seem to be a certain amount of people lurking around who are more interested in dressing and acting bohemian than in having to actually (gulp) work at their craft.

What people deem to be excellence in the arts is subjective. And artists are often their own nastiest critics. In my experience, the better they are, the harsher their judgements of their work.

For instance, "mediocre" is not an adjective I've heard others apply to your music, WLD.

Elmer


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: alanabit
Date: 09 May 06 - 05:32 PM

I have been reading this thread with interest and wondering whether or not to pose the question of whether "artistic temperament" is just an excuse for bad behaviour.
In reply to WLD's point, I think we all have to do the best we can and try to be good. Particularly in the case of performers, we can all possibly move somebody in a way that they get something from us, which they can't get from anyone else. By many people's criteria, I might not be any "good". However, as long as I can give people an experience, which is in some way unique, I reckon it is worth keeping at it.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:43 PM

and even if you no longer have the will to pursue it vigorously. keep gigging. it will give you something to talk about on mudcat. and us mediocre ones are the people in need of reassurance, love and completely unwarranted praise.

we may not be good, but we are artistic.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 06 - 08:58 PM

"Of course, perfection is (probably) not to be expected in this world, but that ought not to become an excuse for not vigorously pursuing it."

            —Classical guitar virtuoso Eduardo Fernandez in the "Introduction" of his manual Technique, Mechanism, Learning.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:34 PM

It would be a mistake to ascribe this creative power to an inborn talent. In art, the genius creator is not just a gifted being, but a person who has succeeded in arranging for their appointed end, a complex of activities, of which the work is the outcome. The artist begins with a vision -- a creative operation requiring an effort. Creativity takes courage.
                                                                   - Henri Matisse

Lord, let me always desire more then I think I can do.
                                                                   - Michelangelo

I've decided, I'm going to feed every little addiction and silently go mad 'cause right now my writing sucks.
                           - Zaffel (whose authorship seems to be recognized mainly for this quote)


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:19 PM

"I gave her gifts of the mind, I gave her the secret sign
That's known by artists who have known
the gods of sound and stone....."

-- Raglan Road.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:14 PM

Ah! Many thanks. The man sure could turn a phrase along with a chisel.

I had no idea that "the image within the stone" was in Greek philosophy; I was always under the impression that it was Michelangelo's personal experience.

This discussion brings up another aspect of the artistic temperament: artists commonly attach psychological and mystical significance and/or fetishistic beliefs to their media.

Sometimes these are personal totems: Musicians feel certain instruments have magic. Painters often have strong personal associations with specific colors and pigments and sculptors speak of emanations coming from different woods and stones.

In other cases they are cultural traditions. Some cultures find gender in stones used for sculptures, using male stones for carving male subjects and female stones for carving women and goddesses. Tibetan painters call their brushes mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, etc., and a ruler is called the guru because it guides the artist in the straight path.

Elmer


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:10 PM

"If the portion that's divine has well conceived
the face and gestures of someone, then through that
double power, and with a short lived lowly model,
he can give life to stone, which is beyond craft's power"

Michelangelo, one of his sonnets.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:02 PM

Thanks for explaining the thinking behind your statements about Michelangelo, Peter T. Perhaps he believed both in a form existant within the stone, and in his personal ability to problem-solve the best way to coax it forth. He lived in deeply religious-philosophical times. If only we could ask him!

An unmanifested idea and $1.50 gets a cup of coffee. No matter how brilliant the inspiration, it's a whole lot of nothing unless the artist brings it forth into some sort of being, whether or not he/she feels it matches up to the original idea.

Coleridge and his "Xanadu" is a cautionary tale in that regard--also one about artists and drug use to stimulate the muse!

Hesperis, by your description I suppose I am mostly an introvert, needing to be alone to create most of the time and cranky as hell when interrupted. However, if I stay isolated too long with "a head full of ideas that are driving me insane," it is counterproductive to creativity. Interaction with people more balanced than I, some fresh air, the stimulation of a rich, multifarious universe outside my gnarly, overloaded brain offers stimulation, inspiration, and often deep relief.

Elmer


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: John Hardly
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:38 AM

"I don't think, personally, that all art works are failures that didn't match the original impulse. Often they are better!!!"

amen.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 May 06 - 07:39 AM

I think one can see from Michelangelo's sketches, and the process of various monuments like the Medici tombs, and the strange emergence of the last works more or less like a cloud forming, that Michelangelo did draft as he went. The Platonic "it was there all the time" was, I think, more for popular consumption. Like most sculptors of my experience, he was a problem solver -- stone has its quirks too.

I don't think, personally, that all art works are failures that didn't match the original impulse. Often they are better!!!

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: hesperis
Date: 06 May 06 - 03:41 AM

Elmer Fudd:

*Differently* articulately. (Ack, grammar!)

I enjoyed reading your personal response to the eternal conundrum as much as I enjoyed writing mine.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 May 06 - 09:38 PM

I can only speak from my own experience.

Exactly so. That doesn't in any way invalidate anything you say, of course. But personal insight is personal, and persons vary, creative persons no less than everyone else.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 05 May 06 - 09:23 PM

I wouldn't wish my frequency, or infrequency, on anybody.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:48 PM

- Or perhaps you both are on the same frequency?


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:29 PM

Hesperis, I just saw that you expressed the same sentiment, only more articulately. Apologies. Brain cells on overload, or self-absorption, to be more honest about it.

E.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 06 - 01:58 PM

wow ~sirepseh~ very insightful ...


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 04 May 06 - 04:45 PM

Peter T., how do you know that Rodin and Michelangelo improvised as they sculpted? This is a sincere question. I am interested. Rodin made many models before undertaking a final work, at least in the case of major sculptures, such as "Homage to Balzac" and "The Burghurs of Calais." Michelangelo believed that he was a freeing an image that was already present in its entirety within the stone; his task was to chip away the excess in which it was imprisoned.

Regarding perfectionism, I can only speak from my own experience. The inspirations for artistic works: images in the mind's eye, and the thoughts and emotions that demand outward expression, are never adequately replicated in concrete form in songs, musical compositions, artworks, or pieces of writing. The work of art never lives up to the inner experience that nudged it into existence. In that sense, it always feels like a failure.

Such is the conundrum of human life. We are matter and spirit. In my opinion, how we integrate these seemingly opposite values (or don't) is part of the essential challenge of our species.

Elmer


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: melodeonboy
Date: 04 May 06 - 03:13 PM

Sorry for my shirty response, Guest. I thought you were one of the Mudcat clever dicks (of which there are many!).

TTFN


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 May 06 - 02:17 PM

Like this !!


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 May 06 - 02:13 PM

Personally , my artistic temperament is assuaged by getting the odd 100th post !


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: hesperis
Date: 04 May 06 - 12:49 PM

I have to agree with the "introvert-extravert" personality as being real. I've taken the Myers-Briggs test quite a few times through employment agencies and it's different every time but always REALLY close to the other result.

I really do need to be social sometimes and totally not social at others. Sometimes socialness recharges me and then after that I have to be completely alone to recharge. Sometimes I recharge in the middle of a social situation and suddenly turn off and withdraw internally even though I was really enjoying hanging with my friends. And if I don't do enough of either, I suffer and my art suffers.

But isn't everyone like that to some degree? Even introverts have friends... I do know more extraverts who have a fear of being alone than I know introverts who have a fear of not being alone.

Perhaps introversion and extraversion relate to art in that certain arts are more suited to certain temperaments.

Drug use is often a matter of emotional wounding though, or of undiagnosed biological mental health issues that keep on inflicting wounds greater than the psyche can handle. If you haven't had emotional support to deal with the pressures of fame and certain temptations, you're going to crack up under those pressures - but only if you also have an internal vaccuum.

A lot of people involved in art don't realize that kind of drug use degrades the quality of the art drastically. There's a culture of "use this to be better, faster, more loved" which is frankly counter-productive. But that culture is in every human endeavour, art is not alone in that.

Why is it that some make it and some crack? Perhaps it is that the tools they have available to maintain emotional health are only pills or powders and are not their own attitudes and beliefs.

Because yes, it's painful to aim for the stars and always fall short... as an artist, the internal vision is always so much better than the created result. You can get closer, you can enjoy the process of crafting something closer to the original aim each time... but as humans we will always fall short of the truly divine. That is the tragedy of art itself, of humanity itself. It must be accepted as not being a personal failure.

It is our nature to fail to be truly divine, and the struggle against that, even while failing, is what makes greatness.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 06 - 12:47 PM

no melodeonboy .. I learn something new every day ... so Drunken Angel was written for Townes about Blaze ... got it. ;-) ... best to you.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:54 AM

And then there's the artist who inflicts his pain onto others -- like Thomas Kinkaide


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 May 06 - 04:41 PM

I don't know about stone-carving, Michelangelo seems to have worked things out in stone as he went along. Rodin too.

I think it is hard to generalise about "artists" as a big category. But there is something about the "supreme" artists that does make me think that there is a pretty clear dichotomy between the supremely serene ones (Shakespeare, Goethe, Titian) and the supremely tormented ones (Van Gogh, Caravaggio, Dostoyevsky).   It is as if one group is like God enjoying his work, and the other is like Satan, fighting it all the way down into Hell.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: melodeonboy
Date: 03 May 06 - 02:41 PM

Yes, Guest, a correction is in order.

"Drunken Angel" was not written about Townes van Zandt. It was written FOR Townes van Zandt but ABOUT Blaze Foley.

(My suspicion is that you knew this anyway but were a little too self-satisfied to correct it yourself!)


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 May 06 - 01:29 PM

Lest we go totally off the rails here, not all artists are "tortured souls." In fact, it's fairly evident that the vast majority of artists (using the term "artist" in the broadest sense:   painters, sculptors, other visual artists, singers, musicians, composers, conductors, writers, poets, actors, the whole schemer) are reasonably well-adjusted people, at least as well-adjusted as most people are.

One can make up a substantial list of artists who have mental or emotional problems (without necessarily qualifying as "insane") or who managed to do themselves in in an irrational manner, such as Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jussi Björling, Townes Van Zandt, Hank Williams, Vincent Van Gogh, and the rest. But if you were to break down the various categories of occupations, I'm not really sure that you would find more artists meeting this kind of end than you would find business executives succumbing to the ravages of the three-martini lunch, stock brokers dying from illnesses brought on by stress, or computer programmers eventually snorting themselves into oblivion.

It may be that some artists are tortured souls for reasons other than being in the Arts. Take Beethoven, for example. A recent documentary on PBS said that there is evidence (forensic analysis of strands of Beethoven's hair taken from a lock of his hair at the Beethoven museum) that he suffered from nerve damage from lead-poisoning, which may have had much to do with his chronic illnesses and difficult personality, and was also quite probably the ultimate cause of his deafness. Imagine a musician of Beethoven's caliber noticing that he's going deaf! That, I would say, is ample cause for him to be disturbed, and even though it interfered directly with his music, his musical bent per se was not necessarily the problem.

In contrast to the "tortured soul," I know personally many singers of folk songs, a lead guitarist in a well-known Canadian rock group, a recently retired opera singer (I went to high school with her before she hit it big), and a best-selling science fiction writer (some of these people have names you'd recognize) who are all pretty darned happy people, just tickled pink that they're able to make a good living doing what they love to do.

Sylvia Plath committed suicide. But how many poets are there who have led relatively contented lives? Ernest Hemingway drank like a fish and eventually blew his brains out. But you can easily name a long list of famous writers who did not.

My wife, Barbara, who is a writer and poet, gets pretty tweaked at the idea that you have to be nuts to be truly creative, and I agree with her. We both feel that artists with emotional problems are creative despite their emotional problems rather than because of them. Or at the very least, their emotional problems and their creativity are concurrent characteristics, rather than having a causality relationship. It may be that the stresses of trying to make it as an artist aggravate their problem, but rather than being a necessity for their artistry, it more than likely tends to interfere with it.

I really think the "disturbed artist" is one of these stereotypes that has enough actual examples to make a lot of people think that this is the rule. Consider the number of artists who show no particular signs of mental problems and whom most psychiatrists would declare perfectly normal (at least within "normal" parameters). I think we notice these people more because a) they are the exception rather than the rule, and b) they're usually relatively famous.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 03 May 06 - 12:30 PM

Interesting observation, Peter. Perhaps you are describing artists whose messy mental/emotional processes take place in their media instead of in their heads. da Vinci seems to have been particularly fearless in that regard. He was not afraid to walk away from a piece and leave it unfinished if he got interested in something else, come back to it later, or just leave it dangling, sketch-marks exposed, for posterity.

I suppose that would be difficult to undertake in an unforgiving medium, such as stone-carving, though.

E.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 May 06 - 10:40 AM

"The Horse's Mouth" is a brilliant book about obsessive artistry. The film isn't nearly as good -- it doesn't have the visionary spaciness of the book (though Guinness is of course great).

I have to agree that after finishing something there can be a let down, especially if you are a perfectionist. As Auden said, poems aren't finished, they are abandoned.

The interesting thing about some artists -- Matisse is a good example -- is that they decided sometime early on that the way to solve problems was to work through them. Many other artists seem to have agonies in their heads, they seem to need to get it all worked out before they hit the canvas or the page. The saner ones seem to have learned to work it out by working it out. Goethe is another example.   It certainly explains their greater output: there are so many artists who sweat to do one thing. And the others who just keep working out as they go. Neither is better, but the latter sure seem to be happier.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Peace
Date: 03 May 06 - 10:21 AM

I think Bill D was my Dr Frankenstein. He taught me amidst wails of protest from lotsa people.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 02 May 06 - 08:49 PM

Hey, no sweatsky. Rapaire created a monster when he taught me how to blickify, so I jest haaad to reference a website in the JJ post! : > )

E.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 06 - 07:37 PM

Lucinda Williams' song "Drunken Angel" is about Townes Van Zandt? ...learn something new every day.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Peace
Date: 02 May 06 - 07:23 PM

No confirmation needed, Elmer. I wasn't aware of that. Your word's good enough for me. Sorry, I thought you'd got the drug confused.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 02 May 06 - 07:17 PM

A day late and a dollar short, re: Janis Joplin's "drug of choice:" she became addicted to speed during her first trip to SF in '63 to make it as a folk singer. Chet Helms and her friends helped her get back to Port Arthur to clean up. It was during that time that she renounced her art and tried to go straight in all senses of the word. Wore her hair in a bun, and tried to look and act "normal."

Didn't work. JJ returned to SF in '66. She started shooting smack and hitting the Southern Comfort hard during that second phase, while singing with Big Brother and the Holding Co.

Abbreviated confirmation at:

JJ's attempt to go straight


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 06 - 06:08 PM

art is supposed to challenge and question the status quo

It'd be easy enough to come out with a whole list of artists and artistes in all types of creative arts over the centuries in respect of which it'd be more accurate to say they set out to celebrate and affirm some aspect of the status quo.
And for a whole lot more they wouldn't have seen the questioning or affirming the status quo as something of significance in their creative work.

Artists vary. So does the status quo.

And when it comes to challenging the status quo, revolutionaries have been as likely to come from the ranks of plumbers and the like as from the ranks of poets and artists.

And sometimes from both at the same time. If there's one thing that folk music represents, it's the truth that ordinary people doing ordinary jobs can create works of beauty and meaning.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 06 - 05:54 PM

art is supposed to challenge and question the status quo

It'd be easy enough to come out with a whole list of artists and artistes in all types of creative arts over the centuries in respect of which it'd be more accurate to say they set out to celebrate and affirm some aspect of the status quo.

And for a whole lot more they wouldn't have seen the questioning or affirming the status quo as something of significance in their creative work.

Artists vary. So does the status quo.

And when it comes to challenging the status quo, revolutionaries have been as likely to come from the ranks of plumbers and the like as from the ranks of poets and artists.

And sometimes from both at the same time. If there's one thing that folk music represents, it's the truth that ordinary people doing ordinary jobs can create works of beauty and meaning.
And for a whole lopt more

It all depends on the artist. And it also depends on the status quo.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: number 6
Date: 02 May 06 - 05:49 PM

"it's that sensual people are more drawn to the arts."

.... true John. If these people don't become artitsts, then they are the ones who are very creative in whatever they do. And as Guest stated they perceive things differently. Creativity, just doesn't pertain to 'the arts'. Take a look around where you are sitting, literally everything you see has been 'created' by a human being.

John (again) Your Right on with this statement .."They don't do drugs because they are tortured artists. The do drugs because they are driven by their sensual nature. The drugs make their lives tortured."

sIx


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: Peace
Date: 02 May 06 - 05:38 PM

A movie that captured one aspect of 'the artist' was based on a book by Joyce Cary: "The Horse's Mouth". I think it is my favourite movie of all time. Alec Guinness is the character, Mr Jimson, a name alluding to the weed which can be deadly. The portrayal of an artist driven by the need to create his art is a tremendous piece of acting by a tremendous actor. It does indeed touch on one facet of 'the artist'.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: melodeonboy
Date: 02 May 06 - 05:23 PM

Not that I completely understand its significance, but I was told that art is supposed to challenge and question the status quo. If this is the case, does this not make life more stressful for the artist than, say, the plumber (who was mentioned before), who might well eat, drink, watch and listen to only that to which he's been "guided" by mainstream culture.

His main concern might well be how early he can get to the pub or when he'll be able to afford a plasma screen. Ideally, wouldn't the artist have far more difficult questions to answer inside his own head? And isn't this both stressful and energy-draining?

And at the risk of asking my grandmother if she knows how to suck eggs, can I direct those of you who haven't heard it to "Broken Angel" by Lucinda Williams? It's a song about Townes van Zandt.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 May 06 - 05:12 PM

Truth is, I think that there's a word that's useful in regards to understanding the "artistic temperament" (as referred to in this discussion). The word is "sensual". It's not that artistic people are more sensual -- it's that sensual people are more drawn to the arts.

Those who can't as easily control their drive for sensory stimulation are only inclined toward the type of discipline that will afford them more stimulation in the practicing.

They don't do drugs because they are tortured artists. The do drugs because they are driven by their sensual nature. The drugs make their lives tortured.


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Subject: RE: The 'Artistic' Temperament-
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 06 - 04:59 PM

There is an artistic temperment. Intensely creative people do focus very narrowly on their art and it's medium. They often perceive things differently than ordinary mortals which allows them to put things together in unusual ways. They can be very high energy, driven individuals. This narrow intense focus and involvement with their art often gets in the way of relationships and those around them feel neglected and misunderstood.


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