BS: Is closing threads censorship?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 06 - 12:37 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Do you need to be censored?
From: katlaughing - PM
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 05:20 PM

YOU need to be banned, Roger.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 06 - 01:22 PM

Shambles you are a moron and someone should delete you...permanently. There is no such thing as censorship on a privately owned site. The owner or his designees have 100% of the power to mold the site into what they want it to be. They can cut out all comments on any subject, by any poster,etc. for whatever reason they want and that is fine because it is the owner's site and not your or mine. If someone is not happy then that person can open their own version of Mudcat.   Why don't you leave and do that Shambles? You contribute absolutely nothing with all of your repititious rants. Start your own site and say whatever you want and then edit out all those who don't agree with you. It will make you happy and it will probably make a lot of other people happy. You can even block all responses from Martin Gibson if you so desire.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST,another
Date: 09 May 06 - 02:01 PM

You are missing the point. He doesn't have a problem with the site max intended, but it has evolved far away from that now. Those doing the editing are now over fervent to say the least and fine exponents of the personal attacks that they rant about.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 May 06 - 02:24 PM

I believe there are about 10 clones, with access to a delete button, are they all being accused of conducting personal vendettas against Shambles?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 06 - 02:37 PM

I do get the point. If Max didn't approve of what they were doing he would put a stop to it. I'm sure that he doesn't ignore what is going on. It is his decision that the editing continues. Accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 06 - 02:43 PM

Please critisize and disagree and bitch and moan all you want, I dig that.
Max
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You may claim to know better than Max what is best for this community, but he is the final arbiter, and he is not showing any sign of being displeased with the management he has set up.
Don T.

I of course make no such claim but Max is also NOT showing any sign of being pleased with the conduct of those he entrusted certain aspects of our forum to.

He has not agreed to our bouncer's latest proposal to limit the public's access to the BS section and for all guest postings to be 'reviewed' on the music section. Nor has he made any public reaction to their admitted failure to impose the peace they require without this latest proposal being accepted.

Do you see this as a vote of confidence for our current 'system' to continue to divide us?

Perhaps our forum will be told by Max what is now proposed to replace it - following the publicly admitted failure of our current 'system'? For I am sure that those currently imposing their judgement upon us would not want to continue imposing these failed measures.........?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 06 - 02:51 PM

I believe there are about 10 clones, with access to a delete button, are they all being accused of conducting personal vendettas against Shambles?
Giok

No they are not - but if they were accused of this - how could they demonstrate that their judgement and imposed editing actions were not unfair and personally motivated against any individual fellow invited guest?

But have you missed the posts where the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team (whose censorship actions are most suspect of being personally motivated) takes full responsibility for the actions of all the rest of his team, even the anonymous ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 06 - 03:04 PM

Shambles....you are [bleep] (for antisocial behavior) indeed an asshole!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 May 06 - 03:05 PM

I think the relevant dates of the two quotes made by Max and Don T should be quoted. I believe that about 6 years elapsed between the two, and a more up to date message from Max might be in order, to see if he still feels the same in view of the amount of abuse and back biting there has been since he originally made it.
You keep saying, obviously Max doesn't agree with Joe Offers suggestion that members only post in the BS section. How do you know this, have you been told it by Max?
As for "how do we know their editing decisions are not personally motivated?" we don't, we have to trust that they are fair in their actions. After all as I said previously, this is not, and never will be a democracy. If it were then we would be able to vote off Clones or Posters we don't like by collecting enough signatures.
Now that WOULD be an interesting exercise!!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: jeffp
Date: 09 May 06 - 03:15 PM

I of course make no such claim but Max is also NOT showing any sign of being pleased with the conduct of those he entrusted certain aspects of our forum to.

Neither has he shown any signs of being displeased.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 06 - 03:19 PM

You keep saying, obviously Max doesn't agree with Joe Offers suggestion that members only post in the BS section. How do you know this, have you been told it by Max?

No from someone much more in the know.

It was Catspaw.....Or was it Bill D?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 06 - 03:27 PM

Subject: RE: Music posts by Guests to be reviewed.(2)
From: Bill D - PM
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 05:56 PM

and perhaps it should just stay where it is until and UNLESS it become a reality. We don't NEED 'comments' on something that may not happen. YOU want comments...and an extra forum for YOUR 'comments'.

What part of "denied" did you fail to grasp?
---------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Music posts by Guests to be reviewed.(2)
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:26 AM

Because you just can't have too many Shamblecentric threads!!!

Actually, Joe moved it to BS (which it is.....if it were being considered by Max and about to be implemented, you can be assured it would be on the whole forum) but Shambo couldn't take it up with Max or take no for an answer so he started a second one.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 06 - 03:30 PM

But have you missed the posts where the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team (whose censorship actions are most suspect of being personally motivated) takes full responsibility for the actions of all the rest of his team, even the anonymous ones?

Or do I have to dig those out too?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 06 - 03:36 PM

Sweet Jesus get this person a job and out of the House or a workplace without a computer before he disappears up his own ----
amen

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:09 PM

Never have so many spent so much time posting so many messages on something that they have absolutely not one bit of control over. Get a life.

[bleep] (for antisocial behavior)Sambles, you, on the other hand, should end your life because you are a useless specimen of humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:22 PM

Guest - That's over the line and you know it. I can only assume that you are trying to be deleated for some reason. If you don't like his threads don't read them. Move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:29 PM

It was a momentary lapse. The man is just so full of himself and so childish. Kind of like an immature Don Quixote.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Alba
Date: 09 May 06 - 05:01 PM

From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:09 PM

Really nasty, no excuse, NONE.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 06 - 05:03 PM

Oh me Oh my, now I've really gone and done it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 May 06 - 05:03 PM

Who's the immature one guest ? Really - there are lots of other threads to read here. Go for it. Pick one.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:44 PM

PM] Max An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS (292* d) An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS 10 Feb 02

Dear GUESTS,

The Mudcat is a place that like minded people communicate and share their knowledge and their lives. We come from different backgrounds, different countries, different ideals, different religions, morals and lifestyles. With these differences, it amazes me that we have so much in common. The format, technology and philosophy of the Mudcat design have been carefully crafted for almost 6 years to facilitate this very diverse community. I have steadfastly or stubbornly held to an ideal of openness since our beginning because I thought that was what was necessary to mimic the real world and to make it easy and comfortable for new folks to discover and learn about our community and ease their way into it.

For the first time since I started this whole thing, I am very thoughtfully considering an alternative. With GUESTS posting as they are today, I have no interest in continuing as I have. You are hurting me. Not just my feelings or my pride in what we have accomplished here, but also in a real concrete way. As many of you know, the economy is in the tank, and Onstage can no longer finance the Mudcat. The members have contributed a great deal of money, in January specifically, that will keep us running for at least 6 months to come. We are up for 2 grants from Folk Song Societies come March and April. All of our sources of financing are highly deterred by the behavior and ability of GUESTS. Probably about _ or our income comes from people and organizations that care about us because we are a Music Resource with no equal. The other ¼ is because of the community. Zero is from GUESTS. So, in these times of necessity, I need to prioritize in gratitude for those who care about the Mudcat in real ways. Real ways are the contributions of money and the contributions of knowledge. Neither comes from GUESTS.

Please stop this behavior, I ask nicely, nay, I beg of you. There is no point to this. This forum is not just words on a page; these are people behind these posts. People who are here to share themselves, their knowledge, their time and even their homes. What you are doing is littering in the park. A free place we can all come to and do our thing, whether we want to meet people and discuss our interests or just sit on the benches and read. You are also personally attacking me. This is my creation, and you are ruining it. You are jeopardizing the only financing we have. If you do not hear my plea, and find some human compassion and stop this now, I will have no choice but to put a fence around my park to keep you out.

Flamers and Trolls of the past always seemed to want something. They would flame BS, Prayer, Healing, etc. threads in protest that this should be a Music-Only Web site. Or they would pick on specific people they did not like. I cannot figure out what you GUESTS want or why you do this other than some egocentric joy from destruction. If I knew what you wanted I could deal with this issue in a surgical fashion and address only those issues without changing one of our core philosophies. But, I do not expect that you want anything. Nor do I suspect you will grant me my plea to please stop this. If that is the case, I have no choice but to implement measures to deal with you. That is, no anonymous postings. At a minimum, you will have to be a member, you will receive your password via a valid email address and your IP address will be recorded. Any behavior that I don't like (no jury, no trial) and your cut off. A technological challenge that I am looking forward to.

MEMBERS: We are discussing our options and our technology now, and will post an Open Letter to Members in a week or two to explain what we have decided. There will be no debate, I've heard all there is to hear about this issue. I will do as I see fit.

Sincerely,

Max D. Spiegel
Publisher

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:50 PM

If I knew what you wanted I could deal with this issue in a surgical fashion and address only those issues without changing one of our core philosophies.
Max
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: BS: Do you need to be censored?
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 08:15 AM

BTW, I would be remiss if I didn't bite here so here we go.......

Okay Sham......I know I'm going to regret this.........You seem to have added a new phrase to your volumes of "Sham's Liturgical Bullshit." What the fuck are these "founding principles?" I get this vision of Max in colonial garb and sitting with Franklin and Jefferson................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: michaelr
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:22 PM

"I've heard all there is to hear about this issue." (Max)

That was four years ago. How long until you finally get it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:33 PM

That was four years ago. How long until you finally get it?

In that there would not seem much point in the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team recording his latest proposal for yet more restrictions to Max then? He seems to think there is - perhaps you should also be telling him not to bother?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This thread on the HELP forum may be of interest. At least while it remains undeleted there.

http://help.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=3210&messages=9

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:34 PM

"Is closing threads censorship?"

Yes.

Say no more - nudge, nudge, wink, wink...

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:36 PM

Anybody out there listening? Close this fucking thread. Do it now.

You can quote me, Roger. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:39 PM

Do I shit in your Shatners?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:39 PM

Nice one fooles. Hope you get what you're after.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:43 PM

If you did, I'd take it as a vote of confidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:43 PM

Shamlogic runs amok yet again.......Posts by all are interpreted to mean whatever suits the Shambworld viewpoint and many times used both for and against depending on the situation. Its beautiful to watch.....ya' know?........ the skill with which Shambolina does this!!!! Impressive as the balls on a 5 year old hog........

For a man who has never been censored save the title addition, Sham sure can beat on it can't he?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:49 PM

He really gets to you doesn't it. Now that's amusing to watch spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:57 PM

Impressive as the balls on a 5 year old hog........

I'll take that as a compliment from one who would seem to spend a lot of time studying pig's testicles - and who tends to post like an expert on that subject.........

[PM] Max another one lost (57* d) RE: another one lost 18 Sep 00

In Life and On Mudcat:
...You have control of your environment and your actions. You can choose to get and take and give what you want and refuse the rest.
...You may think that you, just one person, could not change this world when in fact you might.
...All we can really do is show by example.
...Create WHAT IS with our collective desires, passions, beliefs, personalities, etc. Life is what you make it. (and without The Big Guy's help the Mudcat sure is what we make it!)
Members come and go, we have to deal with that, but now we're scaring away the new folks. Lets get some love in the air! huh folks? Take that energy that you waste on complaining and spread some joy, kind words, and music threads for GOD'S sake.
Max

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:17 PM

Shambles, is there something you overlooked? You, yourself, pasted and posted this thought from Max: "...have no choice but to implement measures to deal with you. That is, no anonymous postings. At a minimum, you will have to be a member, you will receive your password via a valid email address and your IP address will be recorded. Any behavior that I don't like (no jury, no trial) and your cut off. A technological challenge that I am looking forward to.

Obviously Max decided against it - at leazt for that time- but as you can see, he has seriously considered doing just what Joe is proposing now.

So where do you get the idea that Max is against it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:39 PM

Oh it was a compliment Roger.....You have this remarkable ability to take any statement and turn it to your purpose and then turn it completely round to suit a different purpose completely contradictory to the first. That is no mean feat!

And yeah, I live here in hogland, a major pork producing state and the home of several breeds, especially the "Poland China." The Hog Barn at the county and state fairs is always a major attraction, second only to the Dairy barn and the giant butter sculptures. It was at our local county fair about 15 years ago where there was this old farmer who had gotten his 15 minutes of fame on David Letterman with the world's largest hog. He was there walking "Chief" around outside the pig barn and giving autographs and photo opps. Chief had the biggest balls I have ever seen on a hog....like a rugby ball/American football......huge Man!

So Karen and I walk up among the circle of people looking at Chief and as soon as the damn hog looks at me, he heads my way with his snout heading right for MY balls!!! I do the back stepp and try to get Farmer Fred's attention and he slowly turns saying, "C'meer Chief....C'meer Chief" I laugh nervously, Karen cracks up, and the crowd laughs too. Farmer Brown finally gets Chief headed the other way and we wander off making jokes about the hog's sexual orientation.

A bit later we see Chief again and sure enough he heads right towards me and we move on down the line to look at the quilts, giant pumpkins, and to dine on French Fried Pickles and Funnel Cakes. After negotiating the Midway and petting the goats, we emerged from the goat barn and once again saw Chief about 50 foot away. Sure enough, came right for me.....Big pig was queer for me!!!

I read Chief had died a few months later and I always figured it was of a broken heart.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:42 PM

It's a damn shame that hog died without getting to consummate his unquenched desire for you, Spaw. Damn shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:44 PM

Yeah.....I kinda' regretted it myself...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 06 - 02:00 AM

So where do you get the idea that Max is against it?

Because Catspaw and Bill D have both informed our forum that it was not going to happen.......And they should know.

I suspect that if Max did now agree (and was considering such a major change) he would have been kind enough to inform our forum that he had changed his mind and that he was now seriously considering it.

Or indeed would have already made the requested change - in the time since the Chief of the Mudcat Editing team publicly recorded the current 'system's failure and made the proposal that the required peace could only be imposed on our forum with this change.

What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 May 06 - 02:33 AM

I'm trying to be patient here... Shambles, you are not addressing the fact that - according to what Max wrote and that you yourself posted - requiring Member status and allowing NO Guest postings was at one time seriously considered by him. That wasn't Joe talking - it was Max.

You keep pushing, man, and you may get just the opposite of what you claim you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 06 - 03:06 AM

Shambles, you are not addressing the fact that - according to what Max wrote and that you yourself posted - requiring Member status and allowing NO Guest postings was at one time seriously considered by him. That wasn't Joe talking - it was Max.

And you are not addressing many other facts and issues raised here.

But I did address the fact that Max had said this. You are also being rather selective about what parts of Max's public statements you choose to address or ignore. But perhaps we can agree that whatever he may have said in this post - he has not given any public indication that intends to change the open public invitation to our forum?

So we can only guess at what Max's reaction may be to what he may see as the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Teams public attempt to force his hand Proposal for members only posting of BS. And to the resulting state of limbo.......As there was NOT an overwhelming clamour from our forum in favour of this latest restriction proposed by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team.

As Music posts by Guests to be reviewed (2) has not been closed - perhaps the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team is keeping that one open in the expectation of annoucing in it that Max has now agreed to his proposal? Perhaps now, Max has no option but to agree?

What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 May 06 - 04:16 AM

I think I did say that no changes can be made until all of the problems from last summer's crash are fixed. We still have duplicate database entries for the Digital Tradition and member photos and links and some others, and those have to be fixed.
We also have some underlying reliability issues to resolve. And yes, we know exactly what the problems are and how to resolve them - but there are things we have to wait for, so they're done the way we want them to be done.
After that, maybe we'll consider doing something to resolve the problem of trolling by anonymous troublemakers. Members-only posting in "BS" is one option we've considered. Shambles presented that "option" in a rather disproportional manner, as if it were some sort of edict being imposed from above. Still, I can't see any real value in extending BS-posting privileges to those who won't trust us enough to even give their names.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 06 - 04:45 AM

What is Max's view?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 06 - 05:06 AM

Still, I can't see any real value in extending BS-posting privileges to those who won't trust us enough to even give their names.
-Joe Offer-

Why should anyone be expected to trust 'you' when 'you' do not trust the rest of 'us' enough to supply the names of (some of) those who feel qualified to impose their judgement on the rest of 'us'?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 06 - 05:17 AM

And of course as usual - it arse-backwards.

'You' are not proposing 'extending BS-posting privileges'.

'You' are now proposing placing further restrictions on the BS-posting privieges that the rest of 'us' have already be invited to take-up by Max and are currently and freely exercising.

Apparently this is to your displeasure. So perhaps you can go and find another forum where you can impose all the posting restrictions you wish?

Tell me - have you really got the poor lad gagged and tied-up in the cellar?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 May 06 - 05:53 AM

"MEMBERS: We are discussing our options and our technology now, and will post an Open Letter to Members in a week or two to explain what we have decided. There will be no debate, I've heard all there is to hear about this issue. I will do as I see fit.

Sincerely,

Max D. Spiegel
Publisher"

You appear to have answered all your own questions in that one quote Roger!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 06 - 06:21 AM

Then there would equally not seem much point in the Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team publicly recording his latest proposal for yet more restrictions to Max then?

Unless he knows the poor lad is gagged and tied-up in the cellar?

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 06 - 06:23 AM

Please critisize and disagree and bitch and moan all you want, I dig that.
Max

Seems clear enough..................

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 06 - 11:21 AM

At least it looks as if we will not be having the originator of this thread asking for it to be closed and our moderators eagerly rushing to comply....

This link to a thread in the HELP forum will (at least partly) explain.

http://help.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=3214&messages=6

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: GUEST,MrMr
Date: 10 May 06 - 05:20 PM

Joe Offer said:

"Still, I can't see any real value in extending BS-posting privileges to those who won't trust us enough to even give their names."

Imagine, there are people here who don't even trust you enough to give you their names. Hmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 06 - 07:54 PM

We also have some underlying reliability issues to resolve.
Joe Offer

*smiles*

Subject: RE: BS: Is closing threads censorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:16 PM

If someone doesn't close this f*cking thread, I swear I will shoot my cute little weiner dog!
















Actually, I'm just looking for a good excuse to do so anyway. He shat on the rug again, peed on the potted plants, and stole a roast chicken when I had my back turned for less than five seconds! He's a bastard. He deserves to die. ;-D