Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Robert E
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 04:48 PM

I'm an Anglo Irish American (as far as I can tell without further DNA testing) who was born in the suburbs of a large east coast metropolitan city.

What kind of music am I allowed to play?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 11 - 02:44 PM

Because it is, more or less,a straight borrowing from part of Carl-Maria von Weber's 'greatest hit' Der Freischütz

Though it might be the borrowing was the other way, from a tune in the German tradition. It certainly always sounds that way to me. As if it matters.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 11:01 PM

Refresh.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 11:12 PM

In some ways I believe that this is a false argument, because it assumes (wrongly in my opinion) that the matter of authenticity is binary - one either is authentic, or one is not. Not so, I argue. There are degrees involved. In my book the question is not about authenticity per se, but about credibility. And first of all let's knock on the head the matter of having (or not) the "right" to sing songs of a certain tradition. Everyone has the right to sing/play what they like, the issue is how credible they are in doing so. And how does one earn/acquire such credibility.

I joined my first folk club in 1972 and I immediately fell in love with English traditional song. At first, as a floorsinger, I sang only Greek songs. Within months however I became involved in a trio (with a Welsh girl and an English guy) doing English trad material. Was I credible? Not on my own, but in the mix I passed muster, I guess. Did I have the right to do that material? Of course I did!

3-4 years down the line, as a regular floorsinger in clubs I would do songs I liked and felt I could manage. That included much contemporary stuff (the two Taylors provided most of it) but also the odd trad song. Was I credible? Thinking back, no, I still wasn't very credible at all on my own, but people put up with it, bless them.

A further 27 years down the line, by now a member at Herga (well known for its English traditional background), I had a very different appreciation of the material in question, my credibility would have increased after 30 years of listening and singing, and I longed to do it, but faced with some of the stalwarts of the trad scene (Johnny Collins, Dave Webber) I did not dare. Not that I didn't have the right - I respected the material and the audience too much. So I got around it by starting to write my own. Soon enough I started gigging my own material, and slowly I developed further as a performer, until...

...some 3 years ago a radio folk show presenter during an interview suggested that I should attempt traditional songs. She thought I could bring the "Greek lilt" to some of them, to some advantage. It stayed as a back-of-the-head idea until a year ago. Then, with Johnny Collins already sadly gone for one year and seeing that some of the songs he used to do were in danger of being left unsung, I took it upon myself to start learning some of them - the ones that suited my delivery better in my view. I have started singing them occasionally at Herga and I have even sung the Ox Plough Song at festivals a couple of times - in memory of Johnny. I feel that now I have sufficient credibility to do it, and I am even toying with the idea of doing an album of traditional material. In my head I have even selected possible album titles, to give you an idea how seriously I am thinking about it: Either "Trojan" (as in Trojan Horse, alluding to the Greek stealthily entering the English traditional scene) or "None Of My Own" (as in the line "rocking a cradle that's none of my own").

So, if I have earned some English trad material singing credibility in these 33-34 years, to be contemplating such a possibility, how did that happen? I think there are a number of factors involved:

First, increased appreciation of the material itself, its musical, social and historical significance.

Second, listening to the material being sung by many different performers, getting a wide range of perspectives and versions.

Third, improving as a performer myself, mainly through exposure.

Fourth, my own long presence in this society generally, and the folk scene specifically.

Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that these are the hoops everyone has to jump through - only that it took this to make me more credible in my own eyes and ears, so as to dare to do the material at all. I may still not satisfy more purist criteria. And I would NEVER begrudge anyone the right to do such material, coming from a different culture - it's just that if they are not credible enough in my eyes, I might not like their versions. But the have the right to do it.

Because it's LOVE of the material that buys you the right to do it, I believe.

The rest (practice, exposure, appreciation etc) buys you credibility.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 08:38 PM

I wonder how those who believe that only someone of a certain nationality/race/ethnicity/culture(and even that is dependent on the individual, as Suibhne Astray said, e.g. someone born in France, for example, or Australia (my home country) or Trinidad or Jamaica to foreign-born European parents is no less French, Australian, Trinidadian, Jamaican or Japanese or wherever country than someone whose parents have never left the country) would react when faced with a performer, born and raised in their home country who was immersed in another culture/ethnicity's musical tradition and respected and thought of as authentic performer by native-born performers (those qualified to judge). I highly doubt (apologies if I'm wrong) that the OP has ever met a Black calypsonian or a reggae artist or Blues artist for more than a few minutes, or asked them whether they would think that a foreign-born performer immersed in their culture and tradition, who was not exploitative and who was respected as an authentic performer within that country should not perform that tradition? Even if they are respected as a performer by native-born performers? Who is qualified to judge who is authentic except respected native-born performers?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 08:06 PM

Well..can't say. I personally love the polkas and oompa bands etc.

We were taught by Irish nuns in school..and they and perhaps some mothers were almost terrified by the thought that we would be in a situation some day where we had to dance the schottice and would not know how to. So we would go up and down the gym floor doing 1 2 3 hop 1 2 3 hop..never put it together with twirls or anything..just hopped. Were other people exposed to this fear of not being able to dance the schottice..?I can't spell it but I can sort of dance it. mg

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 05:18 PM

OK, so here's an interesting puzzle for you:

I'm ethnically (genetically, that is, DNA-wise) Scottish and Polish. There were some Irish on the Scottish side of the family, but the Polish side is almost 100% Polish as far back as anyone could tell.

The conundrum arises when I mention that I was adopted at age 2 and have no memory whatsoever of my biological family. My adopted family is German/Hungarian/Romanian on my father's side and Polish (again, almost totally as far as I know) on my mother's side.

I grew up listening to a lot of different kinds of music from early childhood on, and then I discovered folk music and, more specifically, Irish and Scottish songs. The tradition of "rebel songs" and ballads about the heroes of the Irish Republic especially moved (and still move) me.

So, is my love for Irish music and history rooted in my Celtic ancestry, my individual discovery of said music, or both? Why am I not likewise drawn to playing polkas, or chardas or oom-pa songs?

Am I "affecting a persona" when I sing and play, or is some latent, native, organic "self" slowly being realized as I learn and perform more and more of the songs in that particular tradition?

By the way, I can sing the hell out of some blues... and I know whereof I speak. Besides, both Howlin' Wolf and Son House made it clear that ANYONE can have the blues; those whites who were not poor country folk just didn't know what to call them yet.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 03:29 PM

I personally love the old German songs and sing them in horrible German. I think they need to be preserved and sung. If a song was written especially for the THird Reich though I think it should be left unsung..unless it was about homesickness, the girl he left behind or something universal. We ahve some great German singers where I live and at least one German family sent to relocation camp in WWII. We certainly should sing the old songs from Germany in USA where so much of our population was of German ancestry..and they were treated quite badly especially in WWI. mg

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,DonWise
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 11:14 AM

There seems to be a concept amongst some people here that traditions somehow exist in discrete compartments,hermetically sealed off from each other and from other influences, and any form of mixing/cross-fertilisation should never be allowed. This sets political alarm bells ringing in my head (BNP etc). This concept surely ignores the whole history of the past two hundred years or so. Look at the song lists of the old guys- Harry Cox, Pop Maynard, George Spicer, O.J.Abbott et al- 'english','irish','scottish'- the whole delicatessen! Scottish ballads are widespread in Scandinavia, many folk tales are common to many countries, ditto dance tunes- Soldiers Joy is just as much a swedish tune as english or american. Many of our 'traditional' dances were originally foreign imports. 'Classical' music influences are also present- I play a bridal march from northern Sweden which often brings smiles to faces in the audience. Why? Because it is, more or less,a straight borrowing from part of Carl-Maria von Weber's 'greatest hit' Der Freischütz (sorry, can't think of the english title).And don't forget the mass emigrations of the 19th century. They weren't simply a case of 'down to the docks and hop on the next ship to North America.' For many people travelling to the port meant crossing large tracts of Europe with all the different traditions they possibly encountered on the way. On board ship the traditions started to mix. It's the same today with free movement of people inside the EU, to say nothing of the availability of CDs, tours by musicians, festivals like Sidmouth or Rudolstadt. People play the music they like, and generally try to play it respectfully and well, even if the instrumentation nowadays is anything but traditional. As Shuffy put it earlier- the music is like a cat in that it chooses you. However, whether you choose to immerse yourself in a foreign 'tradition' or prefer to assimilate that music into your own is up to you. At the end of the day, the question is, "What sort of traditions do we want? Living? Preserved in aspic? Or perverted by neo-fascist politicians??


There is another aspect to the political side. One of the reasons so many german musicians latched onto irish music, or more recently balkan, is that, thanks to the Nazis, german folk music was, for decades after WWII, simply discredited. The Dubliners et al offered an untainted music, wild and free, politically unsuspicious in post-war German terms. Singing german traditionals was, and still is to some extent, difficult to do without being branded as tending towards extreme right wing positions. You have to choose your material VERY carefully..........

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:31 PM

Refresh. Anyone interested in this thread? BTW, I agree with Richard on the point that if someone is superficially knowledgeable on another culture's musical tradition, they have no right to present themselves as a bearer of that tradition. You can only do that if you are immersed in the culture and tradition for a long time.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 May 11 - 10:22 PM

As i said in the "performing other trads" thread (in which this one was mentioned), I think the same thing as most of the people who answered my question there, (BTW, thanks everyone who answered, I now have a strong idea of what I should do about becoming a calypsonian), that is that if you want to learn a musical tradition, you should show it proper respect. That could mean not singing or playing something that is sacred or of political significance, or could be construed as offensive, or asking for permission as some people may be uneasy at the thought of "outsiders" performing their music. This is mostly about music with a strong central tradition, but you should also respect the tradition if you are sincere about performing the genre you want to perform but there is no central tradition.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: autolycus
Date: 26 May 06 - 02:55 AM

I would have thought so too, tho' there are Scots and Scots



    Ivor

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 May 06 - 09:06 AM

If Scottish guitar is different from others surely there must be a tradition, and surely it must be most relevant to Scots.

Scottish Guitar

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Brían
Date: 24 May 06 - 11:02 AM

Michael,

GUEST appears to be trolling. Categorizing things is one of the most natural things humans do. Regulation doesn't automatically follow.

Brían

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Autolycos
Date: 24 May 06 - 10:39 AM

Hear,hear.



    Ivor

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 May 06 - 10:31 AM

"Its not long since belonging to the wrong tradition got you gassed in a large part of the world"

So then belonging to that tradition, or any other tradition, is somehow discredited? Then the bad guys really did win after all.

We've wandered from the topic of our discussion, but we're still talking (generally) about either sticking close to home or wandering afield regarding music, etc. Now, what bothers me about Guest Jim's argument that we should act as "individuals and (resist) the efforts of those who seek to group us" is that he seems to be implying that being an 'individual' is liberating and belonging to a tradition is stultifying or even oppressive. If I understand Jim correctly, he has set up one hell of a false dichotomy. The fact that I enjoy hillbilly music and American ballads like my grandfather and fiddle-making great-grandfather does not limit me. Far from it, it gives me a connection to the past and my own family history which I could never get from either pop-culture schlock or 'high-culture' namby-pambyism. I can still listen and enjoy any music I choose (and I do, often enough). Traditions are a foundation, but you can build what you want upon that foundation. Innovation and tradition ideally should complement each other.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 06 - 10:07 AM

I do not think belonging to the tradition was necessary.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 06 - 04:03 AM

I agree, Autolycos. We'd all be a lot better off if we acted as if we were individuals and resisted the efforts of those who seek to group us, classify us - whether by race or tradition or stereotype - and then regulate us accordingly. Its not long since belonging to the wrong tradition got you gassed in a large part of the world.

Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: autolycus
Date: 24 May 06 - 03:02 AM

Greg - society exists in the senses that it has its own laws and rules independently of particular individuals. That is,in part, because people, when in groups, behave differently from the ways they do independently, or even in one-to-ones.

    All our laws do not refer to particular individuals or particular pairings to the point where the laws don't function for the benefit of particular individuals or dyads(pairings) but for the benefit of the total group - society.

   That's what the word 'society' is referring to, the totality of the group. So we start to talk of 'society's needs', for shelf-fillers, nurses, brick-makers, children. People do jobs they don't 'want' to do , even do things they don't 'want' to do, because 'society' needs, or wants them.


   BTW, yes 'Autolycos' does contain additional information, namely, one or two of the tendencies/preferences that this collection of molecules has.


   Bestest wishes




    Ivor

   A cursory look at history shows how socities rise and fall in similar ways.

   All of this os designed to demonstrate that altho' 'societies' are not tangible objects, they exist and cause stuff. We are not merely 'a collection of individuals', and we don't function in life as tho' we believed we were merely such a collection. We want to, and we'd be better off if made more effort to, but we act much of the time because we know that 'society', with its laws and requirements, is a fact as well as a word.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 May 06 - 04:14 PM

Autolycus: this is an old discussion, philosophy that goes round in circles. broadly speaking, it is the question "Is the name of a thing the same as the thing?", and the supplementary question "If the name of a thing is not the same as the thing, is it a new thing".
You have "a lot of people all interacting with each other". Now, if you like, you could call that bit between the quote marks "society". But have you added anything there? Does "society" exist, or is it just a word to describe "a lot of people all interacting with each other".
Does "London" exist, over and above a lot of people, some ground, some buildings etc etc?
   This type of argument is often used in religious discussions. Does the term "God" refer to some entity with attributes? Or is it merely a short-hande term for "the way the universe hangs together". Is, in other words, the whole greater than the sum of its parts? A very old question. Not answerable really, but it can affect your thinking. So, does "London" exist? Does "society" exist? Does "Autolycus" exist. Or, more to the point, does the term"Autolycus" have any use? If we have a description of all the molecules in your body, where they are and what they do, isnt that enough. Does "Autolycus" convery any additional innformation? because, if it doesnt, "Autolycus" does not exist.In practise.
That is the basis of the argument.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: autolycus
Date: 23 May 06 - 03:17 PM

I'm rather sorry,Greg, but That 'there's no such thing as society' is nonsense, except in the sense that 'society' is not tangible.

   You might just as well say,"There's no such thing as The United Kingdom", tho' Prime Ministers seem to be able to be first minister of such a no-thing.

   'Course, I might have got the wrong end of the stick.(I do that averagely for a human bean).

   'Society' is no more or less non-existent than 'capitalism', and if that doesn't exist ........ !!!!!!!!!!

   So 'traditions' exist, which some recognise, some don't; some follow, some don't; etc. etc.




    Ivor

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Brendy
Date: 23 May 06 - 11:44 AM

... Plus the fact that 'measureable vectors' are about the only things one can observe about a tradition, however you care to define that word...., and depending on where you stand while doing that observing.
It's the unmeasureable ones that we are trying to define, using a wholly imperfect set of criteria and language.

B.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 May 06 - 06:54 AM

Richard Bridge: you're getting a bit philosophical now. Whether there is any such thing as a tradition depends very much what you mean by "tradition". Thatcher famously said "There's no such thing as society", and she was absolutely write in her Oxford tutorial logic chopping mode. There is a set of relationships between individual people. It's just that some other people use the term "society" to describe that construct. She was saying because we invent a word, we haven't invented an object. Much like "religion". Or "tradition". Magritte put it very simply(or possibly very confusingly) by painting a pipe, and writing "This is not a pipe" under it.
However, Richard, whether or not "tradition" exists, or continues to exist,, people will continue to sing and play tunes, whether they are rustic nightingale songs or techno-samba-yurt. And let us hope some of these mixes are tolerable to our grumpy-old-git ears. Otherwise it's back to recordings of William Kimber and Leadbelly. Which are, thank God(does he/she exist?) readily available.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Amos
Date: 22 May 06 - 10:27 PM

There is one alien tradition I have often yearned to adapt and could easily learn to love, viz: scooting about the galaxy in a faster-than-light-speed scout vessel and making the natives nervous. I think it would be a lark.

A

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 May 06 - 08:32 PM

"On balance it looks as if the soul surfers of folk music are headed the way of the dodo. There is no such thing as an alien (life, Jim, but not as we know it) - which means there is no such thing as a tradition, merely a record of times past."

Maybe I'm bone simple, but I have no idea what Richard means by this statement.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 06 - 08:18 PM

There are plainly differences between what we perceive as modern cultural givens, and what moves our "inner spirit" (if we have one), yet the tendency I see here is to observe only the measurable vector.

I am not English merely because I was brought up in England (in fact, from the age of 3 to 6 I lived in Australia) nor indeed merely because both of my parents were English, nor because their parents were. What I think I perceive and others here do not is a deeper wellspring of "English-ness". The same applies for other nations with different attributions.

Of course, if that sort of collective subconsciousness does not exist, then it is not surprising that we see the Lancashire toreador, the white college bluesman, the urban English Irishman, the German country and western singer.

On balance it looks as if the soul surfers of folk music are headed the way of the dodo. There is no such thing as an alien (life, Jim, but not as we know it) - which means there is no such thing as a tradition, merely a record of times past.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 06 - 07:53 PM

tempora mutantur, et nos mutamur in illis. As they say.
The last three bits of work I did, Foolestroupe, were an acoustic session type gig in a bar, a full-on stage gig with PA and lights, a dance for a union conference, and some CD promotion in relation to organic food outlets and craft shops in Cumbria. There's a good blend of very new technology with millennia-old techniques. The music probably created in the period 1600-19970, though that is difficult to define precisely as a lot of it transforms itself continuously.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 06 - 07:40 PM

"they've been in a dominant picture in our culture for a century"

but my original point was, is that now 'traditional'? What when the electricity runs out - does our 'tradition' vanish? What then we will sing around the campfire, burning our last wooden instruments to keep warm?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 06 - 07:33 PM

Foolestoupe: recordings are definitely part of the transmission of traditions, of course they are. I wouldnt dream of leaving them out of the picture, they've been in a dominant picture in our culture for a century. But they didnt completely destroy traditions, they reshaped them. I have just recorded a CD of Cumbrian tunes, for example: that is just as much a part of how we pass the tunes on as any sessions, gigs or whatever. They all interact.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 06 - 07:23 PM

Sigh... I'll explain - but being in contravention of the 'Roger Rabbit Rule' - it won't be funny...

Basically

Greg, your implicit assumptions include the one of personal contact with living people 'performing the tradition'. This is just exactly what is 'broken' when the relatively 'modern capability of recording actual sounds' are used as a basis of 'building tradition'...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 May 06 - 07:18 PM

Foolestroupe-

It does depend upon how you define 'traditional'. Commercial forms have been a medium of transmission since the days of black-letter broadsides and probably before (the stage, etc.). So I don't think that learning a song from a parent or grandparent who in turn had learned from a recording differs markedly from someone 200 years ago learning a song from someone who got it off a ballad hawker. What's more, it works the other direction as well. In North America, the early 'commercial' country recordings were just as much 'folk' recordings as the stuff recorded by Lomax and others. Recordings, print and oral transmission all have cross-fertilized each other and contributed to the music we love. Also, traditions are more often passed down as ways of interacting with and understanding the world than as specific artifacts. Think of it as a process rather than a product.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 06 - 06:53 PM

F oolestroupe: I think you're a bit wrong there, I dont think you've thought about all the ways traditions can be transmitted. Consider the local school where you live. That is where the locaL accent is being passed on, and not just the accent: the style of talking, of walking, of facial expressions, alll sorts of stuff. It doesnt matter if the parents and child have just arrived in the district from 200 miles away, or if the child was born there. They will acquire the same local style. And this is not affected by what the child gets from the parents, as long as the child is fairly young.. They get stuff from their peers, or from those a year or two older.
   I live in Stoke(England). I know a young Rumanian refugee, with a thick Stoke accent. He learnt that in the playground, he didnt come to England till he was 8 (as far as I remember).
   It can be the same with musical traditions. I didnt learn how to play hornpipes from my dad, but I did learn "from the tradition" as they say. It just so happened my dad didnt play hornpipes, though he did play the church organ. And my mum played the flute. But I learnt tunes from other people. Or books,sure, but you dont learn style from books. Style you learn from the air you breathe.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 06 - 06:39 PM

"My parents learned most of what they knew from recordings"

Which explains why discussions of 'traditions' is meaningless mostly nowadays, in the 'traditional' terms of reference of such discussions...

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Scoville
Date: 22 May 06 - 03:42 PM

It occurred to me the other day that "culture" comes in so many sizes that it can all get very weird. My main culture is that of a white, suburban, middle-class, American. I suppose that culturally, I should be into soft rock and New Christian music.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the United States, at least, "foreign" cultures have a tendency to sort of break loose and be adopted by people who don't share the same ancestry but may share the same geographical region an life experiences. It's hardly a new phenomenon and after awhile, the "borrowed" traditions end up being part of a new tradition, which may be based on a lot of things in addition to (though not necessarily exclusive of) ethnic origins. The most obvious example I can think of would be the adoption of African-American musical forms by white musicians, which has been going on for generations now. In the country music traditions, at least, I imagine there was enough of a shared experience of a difficult agricultural lifestyle to easily explain why country blues appealed to white musicians and was blended into their own forms.

I don't have a continuous family tradition of Anglo or Irish folk music (which I could have had since my mother is English/Irish/Welsh, except that her family weren't into that sort of thing), and I'm much too white to justify my German/Swiss/English/French father's lifelong love of blues, gospel, and ragtime. I grew up with contradance music and the standard pop-style folk revival stuff and then slid into things that were nearer the "roots"

My parents learned most of what they knew from recordings, which would probably be smiled-at by a lot of traditionalists but which I think is better than them not learning anything at all, and they taught me their own versions of a lot of songs that meant special things to them. Bingo--family micro-culture. These songs were chosen because they went along with everything else about our lives---they reflected values my parents held, stories or images they loved, or places we had been. Who says that's not my tradition?

We've lived a number of places in the U.S. and theoretically ought to belong to that "regionless" overeducated, liberal, upper-middle class. My brother recently moved to Northern Virginia for graduate school and suddenly realized he's not an Eastern academic type. He calls home every once in awhile pining for open spaces, real Mexican food, and backyard barbecues. Oops. We grew up in Colorado and Texas. We're not the Western/Southern stereotypes but it has definitely had an effect. I've spent enough time in the Midwest and East to sort of know the ropes but I'm not at home there.

I don't sing or play music to be patronizing. I try to learn about origins and to stick with things that mean something to me besides some romanticized ideal. Everybody here knows there aren't any coal miners or sharecroppers in my family (doesn't mean there aren't mining songs I love, but I'm not fooling anyone, nor would I want to). I mostly do old-time and very-early-country (i.e. lots of Carter Family) music, and there are musicians I think are absolutely brilliant but I don't bend over backwards to imitate anyone.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 06 - 02:43 PM

Leadfingers: it is a commOnplace observation, among people who have spent many years thinking about it, that traditions invisible from outside cannot be seen from inside. Look at woods, invisible inside where all you can see are a few trees around you.
    Another example: I've met a lot of Kurds in the last few years, I can recognise Kurds in the street now from their distinctive walk and body language. I dont recognise anything distinctive about standard white English people walking, they all look different from each. I dont notice the similarites. Same with a lot of cultural things: by no means obvious, when you are up close and personal. You will definitely have a traditional cutlure, even if you dont know what it is. However, it probably doesnt include singing the Nutting Girl and Searching for Lambs and dancing the Roger de Coverley.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 May 06 - 01:31 PM

A lot of very good points raised in this thread , but the big problem for me in Richard's initial post is the 'Traditional' tag ! As jacqic
said , raised on 50's/60's pop , WHERE is the tradition ?? I am mostly Irish with a lot of English , brought up in the suburbs of Birmingham - I dont HAVE a tradition - Irish or Morris , Blues or Bluegrass , Jazz or Contra dance , are all muisc forms that I have absorbed SINCE adulthood ! Very few of us actually have ANY real tradition to keep up , only the traditions we adopt .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 May 06 - 12:48 PM

BuckMulligan,

"I take your point that the annoyance is THERE"

That was my only point.
I made it with the assumption that it would be ignored.
I was almost right.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 22 May 06 - 12:33 PM

Yes it's safe.

But please read carefully what I wrote before firing from the hip again. A good few one-liners occured to me during the exchanges but I refrained from mailing them.

I "contributed" to this thread because the originator seemed to be heading in a dangerous direction (my apoligies to Richard Bridge for meddling in a topic - race and tradition - which has been vehicle excuse for misdeeds in the past). This little eruption of bile may have scotched the thread for good. I hope so.

Yours liberally

Jim and the Whippets (not a band!)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 06 - 05:06 AM

GUEST Jim: I should add, nobody is trying to make you be interested in north of England traditional music, or to perform it. That is entirely your choice. But to deny its actual existence is just plain pig-headed stupidity, and bolshy with it. Is it perhaps safe to assume you come from Yorkshire?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 May 06 - 04:59 AM

Certainly, none of the seven different Manchester Hornpipes can be definitely proved to have been written in Manchester. These things by the nature are not very well documented. They could possibly all have been written in Japan. But all i am suggesteing is that if you add together vast numbers of references to fiddlers in Lancashire over a long period of time, bagipers etc as well, and vast numbers of tunes with Lancashire placenames in the title with a provenance extending over the 16/17/18/19 centuries: well, the most logical explanation is that there was a fair amount of that kind of dance music around. Of course all these references could have been forged in some strange kind of Dan VBrown conspiracy, and all the tunes actually composed this year in Tokyo. But frankly, I would go for the obvious explanation. Which is that the north of England was cram full of traditional folk music at this period.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 22 May 06 - 03:30 AM

sorry to wind you all up so much.
Perhaps my perspective is as narrow as would have been a local resident in 16-18 cent. They didn't travel much unless they joined the army or became packhorse men.
I'm not talking about the whole N of England - just my little patch of about 100 sq miles.

No doubt there are records and collections but they weren't made by illiterate workers. I suspect that the collectors would have been tempted to add a bit. Also, is our correspondent suggesting that the Manchester Hornpipe was written in Manchester? - nice hypothesis and bodes well for the Japanese Hornpipe.

The fact that was born and I live here doesn't make some 19 th century collection of "local" doggerel my own tradition. Two grand parents hailed from distant parts of the known world, one was a professional soldier and I'm not sure about the other.

I've watched modern dialect and folklore collectors at work and have known the old biffers they've interviewed. Veracity of record seems often to have been in inverse proportion to length of interview / number of pints.

Discuss

Cheers all

I'm off out on 't moor wi't whippets now.

Jim

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Brendy
Date: 22 May 06 - 01:38 AM

... detail from the link I provided above, Michael.

B.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Goose Gander
Date: 21 May 06 - 11:44 PM

"Historically speaking, economic (no money), social (scattered population) and theological (puritanical) conditions here suggest to me that music singing and dancing were unlikely to have been on the agenda for ordinary people in this part of the world during the 16th 17th and 18th centuries. That's all I'm saying."

Re-reading Jim's comments, it seems clear that he believes that there was no northern UK folk tradition to speak of; sorry, but the historical record speaks for itself. I have not the time nor the inclination to look it up, but anyone who cares can prove Jim wrong.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 May 06 - 09:10 PM

Yes, the Baptists even banned sex, lest it lead to folk dancing...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: GUEST,Brendy
Date: 21 May 06 - 08:53 PM

A couple of Chapters..., and a few verses, greg
Music has a tendency to only go underground during puritanical times. Music happens within oneself, and therefore will out.

One must have great respect for the likes of Ann Briggs and Louis Killen, for instance for helping to keep the tradition alive.

There mightn't have been much going on in the centuries you speak of, Jim, but be guaranteed, they sang and danced about it, anyway.

B.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 May 06 - 07:56 PM

The fact that so many Americans so put so much effort into discovering and re-visiting their "roots" surely indicates that the human psyche attaches a deeper meaning to culture or cultural inheritance (I think this may not be the word I want) than simply that which is learned or formally recorded - they are trying to identify something that is part of nature not nurture.

It would also seem that there is a general suspicion of those who adopt in other spheres an inheritance (in this sense) that is alien to them - for example the self professed members of extinct American Indian tribes, who, in full tribal regalia, live in small suburban English houses, rather to the incredulity of their neighbours.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 May 06 - 07:11 PM

"It is difficult to preserve your own folk traditions if you don't even believe you have folk traditions."

I'm not sure how you are drawing that conclusion. Did either Jim or myself say that we do not believe we have folk traditions? That is far from what I said, and re-reading Jim's note I don't think he was saying that either.

My comments are directed at several cultures here in the U.S. where music and dance were NOT an integral part of their daily lives. Fortunately there were other religions and cultures at work HERE that did have a more encompassing view.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Tootler
Date: 21 May 06 - 06:57 PM

To add to that, Parish Churches all over England had their West Gallery bands to provide music for the services. Tunes for hymns were often written by local people. These bands would also provide music for local dances as well.

In the 19th century, in the industrial towns there was a major growth of brass bands, choral societies and male voice choirs many of which achieved and still achieve professional standards. Remember people in the towns worked very long hours at that time. Such music making is still very much a tradition in parts of Britain today.

The people who played in such groups were not the leisured classes but ordinary people holding down ordinary jobs.

Who said there was no time for music making in past centuries?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: Goose Gander
Date: 21 May 06 - 02:07 PM

A few things, the term 'Puritan' is far too broad to encompass the various protestant sects, Calvinist and otherwise, in the north of Britain during time frame mentioned. Besides, people have ways of flaunting no-fun rules like that, and as Greg pointed out, northern English music is well-documented and the record speaks for itself.

It is difficult to preserve your own folk traditions if you don't even believe you have folk traditions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Adopting Alien Traditions
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 May 06 - 01:36 PM

"Historically speaking, economic (no money), social (scattered population) and theological (puritanical) conditions here suggest to me that music singing and dancing were unlikely to have been on the agenda for ordinary people in this part of the world during the 16th 17th and 18th centuries."

"But with no entertainment laid on by TV, radio etc what did people do at the end of the working day? "

Probably sleep and get ready for the next day.

I don't want to speak for Jim, but I do see some truth in what he says. The Puritans were not party animals. Music and dance was NOT considered proper. Here in the U.S., celebrations were actually outlawed in parts of the colonies. Even today, there are sects of Amish that do not partake in music and dance.

Of course, you can not stop music. There were many cultures that readily adopted to these arts.   However, the use of music and dance was quite different in the past.