Starting on mandoline

Subject: Starting on mandoline
From: alanabit
Date: 19 May 06 - 02:35 AM

I was given a mandoline at Christmas, so I now have a second instrument, which I can't play! I have enjoyed fiddling about on it, picking out a few tunes and the like. I don't really have a clue though. I'd like to hear from some of you real musicians out there.
What is the proper position to hold it? What are the bad habits I should try to avoid picking up from the start? What sort of exercises/scales should I be practising to build up fluency and clean technique. Given that I read music, are there any online sites I should be having a look at?

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 19 May 06 - 03:17 AM

There is definitely stuff on the web, but it's not something I've looked into myself.
As with a lot of instruments, what you might need to learn can depend on the style of music or accompaniment you want to play. Bleusgrass playes have a completely different style compared with people who play Irish reels. Plectrum work for sustaining a note behind a slow folk song is diferent from the way a country musician might back a slow country song. When you have a direction to follow you can ask for more specific advice on the chosen style and the techniques appropriate to it.
Basic learning includes chords - have you got a decent chord chart? You can never go wrong using common scales and arpeggios to familiarise yourself with the finger board and to train your fingers to find the notes you need without having to think about it.

As far as tunes are concerned on the web both www.concertina.net and JC's ABC Tunefinder (can't recall the URL) are good resources for finding music which can be turned into printed dots.

Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: DG&D Dave
Date: 19 May 06 - 03:43 AM

When I started playing (20 odd years ago) I found Mel Bay's 'Fun with the Mandolin' book a good starting point for chord tables, picking styles etc. MB also published some books for more advanced Bluegrass methods.

The one bad habit I regret, is not using my left hand little finger enough, from the start. It is perfectly possible to play the mandolin using only 2 fingers on the left, 3 can be wonderful. But for the more complex tune 4 will be very useful. So work that little finger...

P.S. Don't bother with the left thumb, it'll only get confusing...

Have Fun.... Dave.

"Oh Lord! It's hard to be humble... But I'm doin' the best that I can".

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: Ernest
Date: 19 May 06 - 03:56 AM

I am not a real musician, but nevertheless:

Have a look at the discussion board at "mandolincafe.com" - you can get a lot of technical advice there. Also links to websites of various mandolin-players so you can get an idea what style you would like to learn.

For easy tunes and tab I found the sites "jaybuckey.com" and "nigelgatherer.com" very helpful.

Also you might look what local mando-players are doing. Since you live in the cologne area, you might check a group called Wayfairing Strangers, one of them (his name is Martin Ahrndt, I think) plays mandolin.

Happy Picking!
Ernest

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 May 06 - 04:06 AM

Although I'm far from being a serious enough player to be giving much advice, if you're moving into mando from other plucked instruments, learning to "alternate up and down" with the pick seems to be something of a hurdle for many. Practicing melodies, playing slowly and deliberately, playing alternate notes in an up down up down pattern, with gradually increasing speed, will train the muscles and the thinking. Most instruments use this to some extent, but with the mando it's pretty much the rule.

As GtD comments, picking a style of music that you intend to play will make quite a significant difference in what techniques you'll want to stress. For a beginning, fondling and loving the thing, in short but frequent sessions, will give you the "feel for the instrument" that you'll need to move on to more specific stuff.

Unless you're a frequent player on another fretted instrument, you may find the high-tension/short-span mando strings somewhat brutal. The real reason they're double-coursed is because single strings at the required length/tension would slice your fingers off (bed-of-nails effect).

Some players have much more difficulty building the appropriate callouses for mando than for other fretted instruments. Short but frequent sessions work much better than longer ones for building the necessary "dead ends" on the finger tips. If you play long enough in a single session to seriously hurt, it can take weeks to get over it. If you can build the callouse without more than a little tenderness, a week or two of short, frequent, sessions should put you in good shape to play for as long as you want.

John

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: alanabit
Date: 19 May 06 - 04:45 AM

Good stuff. Thanks folks. I have been trying to use the little finger. Quite a lot of guitarists are pretty lazy with that one too, so I have consciously tried to use it and let it have a "home" position on the neck. How many frets should the fingers cover in one position?
Ernest: I do know Martin, of course, but I see him pretty infrequently, over a beer at the Corkonian. I will mention it to him next time we meet.

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 19 May 06 - 05:09 AM

How many frets should the fingers cover in one position?
Because the frets on a mandolin are closely spaced it is easier to hold the hand fairly "square" to the fingerboard and depending on the scale being played, essentially use first finger for frets 1+2, second finger for 3+4 third finger for 5+6 and "pinkie" for fret 7 if needed (sometimes it makes sense not to move to the next string up).
On a tenor banjo, which contains the same note intervals but on a longer fret scale you have to move your hand to cover the scale, so the fingering tends to be tackled in a slightly different way.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: redsnapper
Date: 19 May 06 - 05:22 AM

Dear Alan,

Also lots of great resouces, including some lessons at:

The Mandolin Cafe

RS

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 May 06 - 05:53 AM

A "curiosity" perhaps, but a mandolinist I've much admired is Carlo Aonzo (plays with Beppe Gambetta, of whom you may have heard more). He's one of a few reasonably accessible "classical" mando virtuosi. An interesting bit he shared is worth posting in full, I think:

Mandozine: Aonzo Family Scales

[quoting]
Here are the (now famous) Carlo Aonzo Family Scales. Aonzo said when his father started teaching him mandolin this was the first exercise he learned. His grandfather taught them to his father. He said to do them every day and to keep the fingers down on each note when ascending each string. Make sure each note has good, clean, strong, tone and volume. Use a metronome and increase the speed as you become proficient. Carlo's other instructions are below. At the low end of the neck they're a b*tch, in the middle easy, then get tough again high up. Have fun kids....

  |----------------|--------0-2-3-2-|----------------|
  |----------------|0-2-3-5---------|7-5-3-2---------|
  |--------0-2-4-5-|----------------|--------7-5-4-2-|
  |0-2-4-5---------|----------------|----------------|
  
  |----------------|----------------|1-3-4-3-1-------|
  |----------------|--------1-3-4-6-|-----------6-4-3|
  |----------------|1-3-5-6---------|----------------|
  |7-5-4-2-1-3-5-6-|----------------|----------------|
  
  |----------------|----------------|--------2-4-5-4-|
  |1---------------|----------------|2-4-5-7---------|
  |--6-5-3-1-------|--------2-4-6-7-|----------------|
  |----------6-5-3-|2-4-6-7---------|----------------|
  
  |2---------------|----------------|----------------|
  |--7-5-4-2-------|----------------|--------3-5-6-8-|
  |----------7-6-4-|2---------------|3-5-7-8---------|
  |----------------|--7-6-4-3-5-7-8-|----------------|
  
  |3-5-6-5-3-------|----------------|----------------|
  |----------8-6-5-|3---------------|----------------|
  |----------------|--8-7-5-3-------|----------------|
  |----------------|----------8-7-5-|3---------------|
  

Aonzo's paraphrased exit comments "Continue this pattern step by step until the index finger is on the 10th fret then reverse the starting note (down a half step) and go back down to the open position. Repeat this 3 times! and you'll become a mandolinist."
[end quote]

(I'll confess to being too lazy to have practiced the scales more than a little, but the source is the source perhaps.)

John

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 19 May 06 - 08:04 AM

I presume the purpose of these exercises is to train your fingering so that you are not just tied to the nut position. If you learn a fingering which is independent of the nut it frees you up to be able to play in ANY key - harder initialy, but once learned gives more possibilities. Mind you, for many areas of music, you can get by with a much more basic technique.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 May 06 - 03:55 PM

Sorry, but when I saw the word "Mandoline," I came looking for cooking tips.

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: mandotim
Date: 19 May 06 - 04:40 PM

Hi Alanabit! Welcome to the world of 8-string obsessives! The mandolin is a wonderfully versatile little instrument, comfortable in a huge range of styles of music; what were you thinking of playing?
The best instructional books I have found are the ones by Simon Mayor, available Here
Another good idea is to join the co-mando discussion board. Lots of good and truly great players drop by, and are very happy to help a beginner along. The people on that list taught me more about the mandolin in two weeks than I'd learned in the previous two years. You can sign up here There is an archive of thousands of tunes here as well, in Tabledit format; this programme shows standard notation, tab, fingering (by using an animated fretboard) and plays the tune in MIDI.
Hope this helps
Tim from Bit on the Side

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 May 06 - 03:40 PM

GtD has good advice about playing up the neck - If you are getting above A on the E string , its a hell of a lot easier if you can work across the strings , rather than up and down the neck , and it DOES make Eflat and such a lot easier .
As far as 'reach' is concerned , obviously , long fingers make all the difference , but with my short stubbies an F chord with the A on the E string is easy enough . That of course means using the little finger .
And John is right about the cross picking - NOT a guitar technique normally , but makes the Mandolin and the Tenor Banjo much more interesting .

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: alanabit
Date: 21 May 06 - 04:37 AM

Yes Terry, I love the sound of cross picking. Thomas Kärner, who plays mandoline on my albums, effortlessly knocks out a variety of styles, according to the song. Cross picking sounds great on some stuff. Unfortunately, Thomas now lives in Bayern. So we don't get to see him so often.
I am going to get as far as I can with some of the good advice I am getting here. Then maybe I can pick up a few hints from Thomas,when we meet up again.
Are there any bad habits of beginners, which I should particularly strive to avoid?
Thanks to everyone.

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 May 06 - 07:56 PM

A common "bad habit" for beginning mando players in my area is that they all presume that "bluegrass" is the only thing to play. As a result of this, they spend all their time learning "the chunk," which basically is little more than imitating a snare drum; and they neglect getting acquainted with the "musical" aspects of the instrument.

What they practice is fine for "backing" in a bluegrass band, but there's a lot of other stuff that's more fun.

I favor having fun with it - but then some have said I'll never be a "real mando player."

John

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:09 PM

I have a new mando also, and am just picking up a few chords. My instruction book (good ol' Mel Bay) mentions taking closed chords such as A up the neck to change to Bb,B,C# etc. Im wondering...is it typical to also bring barre chords, such as C and G up the neck? I know the tension on the mando strings makes barring more difficult than on guitar, but it seems to work for me.
And one other query...how do you amplify the little bastards? (I need to play Ripple with a bunch of amped Dead heads.)

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:37 PM

All three of my mandolins have pickups - so they are easy to plug in and play. I prefer a mic but I doubt that's an option with Deadheads.

As far as barr chords - I cheat a little bit. I often play a 2 fingered C chord { major and minor } with my ring finger and little finger and use my first finger to fret the low G string. Then I flatten my hand a little to mute the E string. That way I get D, E, F and G chords up the neck. I do play a full barr chord in the 2 fingered G position { major and minor } to get my A , A flat, B , B flats ect up the neck too.

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 02:38 PM

Surely if your mandolin is well set up a barre will be no harder than on a guitar - usually only two courses to manage with the barring finger, too

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: Kaleea
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 04:00 PM

Wesley, yes! I inherited a bowl back mando a couple of years ago, & I'm still just plunking out a few Bluegrassy/oldtimey (which I love) tunes now & then. I have not taken the time to learn to read music for it yet, which would be what I should really do so I can play a variety of Music, to include Classical. I suppose I really should go to a music store sometime & look over the method books to find one which teaches Mandolin from a more Classical point of view, but just for fun, not seriously demanding as I'm-going-to-be-a-concert-mandolinist-methodbook. Anybody know of a book like that? In a perfect world, there'd be a website with free mando lessons for the more classical music lovers.

Subject: RE: Starting on mandoline
From: GUEST,Mandoleer
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 06:48 PM

Position to hold it: Whatever is comfortable. Depends on the shape of the back of mandolin, and shape of front of player...
When starting to play the tremelo effect - use a softish plec at first. It doesn't bounce so much, and it's quieter too. Harder the plec, harder it is to do, but it's louder. I keep a range for different purposes (that's what that silly little pocket in the front of your jeans is for, keeping plecs in), but have been known to use 5p coins and even polished gem stones on occasion (in desperation, that is...).
Mandolin is primarily a melody instrument. It was used by serenaders who played the tune, while a hired or borrowed guitarist played the chords as backing (in the shadows, just in case the wrong person got fancied). Leave the chords to the guitarists - you have the TUNE.
Don't use continuous tremelo for everything. Use a strong downstroke and pause for some longish notes instead. Adds variety.
Until your fingertips get hardened, you will appreciate why the culinary device has its name, and may wonder which of the two you are actually playing. Tip: DON'T play with damp fingertips. (PAIN...)
Tuning: if no reference available, tune lower of a pair up. It's not hard to knock tuning pegs looser, but more unusual to knock them tighter.
DON'T get a mandolin-banjo unless you like tuning up. Bridge rests on skin (or plastic) head. Tune bottom end - fine. Tune next pair - OK. By the time you've tuned the top end - guess what's happened down below? Yes. Back to the start...
If mandolin is oldish, check fingerboard for straightness. I've seen some old Neapolitan ones that has nearly half an inch action at the 7th fret. If like this - hang it on the wall. Or sell it anonymously...