Subject: Sorry the day I was married query From: Northerner Date: 23 May 06 - 03:03 PM I have been looking for some songs to sing at the folk clubs again. I haven't been singing for a few weeks as I had a bereavement in April followed by a head cold immediately after the funeral. I have been working on a story but feel that it needs a little more work. I thought that singing a few chorus songs might cheer me up. One possibility is "Sorry the day I was married". I've found the Maddy Prior and Tim Hart version on a CD. All well and good so far. But I am pretty sure that when I used to sing it (about 30 years ago) I used the first verse as a chorus. There is a Waterson's version, so maybe that is the one I remember (I have the LP somewhere but haven't played it for many years). And somewhere I may have a tape of Janice Clark singing it at a folk club. I really would prefer to sing this as a chorus song, if I do decide to sing it. Could anyone please tell me the correct way to sing this song? As Maddy and Tim sing it, or with the first verse as a chorus? Thank you. Other possible songs are "The Shearin's no for you" and "Dainty Davy". |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Big Mick Date: 23 May 06 - 03:27 PM The correct way to sing it is the way you arrange it. Listen to yourself on this one. Kitty Donohue, when she was with Pub Domain, did a version as you describe. It is a wonderful arrangement that I could very easily hear as a singalong. All the best, Mick |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Leadfingers Date: 23 May 06 - 03:28 PM In my book , unless you want to be a 'Source Singer Clone' there is NO correct way to sing a traditional song - Work on your own arrangement mate !. |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: George Papavgeris Date: 23 May 06 - 03:29 PM There is no such thing as a "correct way", don't be concerned about that. Sing it just as you like and as it pleases you aesthetically; if the first verse could go as a chorus, do that. And my sympathies for your bereavement. |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: George Papavgeris Date: 23 May 06 - 03:30 PM Talk about "Snap!", Mick and Terry... |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Big Mick Date: 23 May 06 - 03:34 PM Great minds, eh? Mick |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Northerner Date: 23 May 06 - 03:41 PM Thank you for your kindness El Greko. I think that having a good go at a chorus song will help to lift my spirits. There are some fabulous chorus singers at the clubs I go to. Thank you all for your comments. I have found my old notebook. There is an arrow pointing after the second verse to show that the first verse is inserted here, i.e. it is used as a chorus between the verses. I will sing it that way as that is how I would autumatically sing it and it is helpful for me to follow my old pattern of singing it. Cheers! |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Marje Date: 23 May 06 - 04:26 PM When I lived in Sussex and went to the Chorus and Harmony song sessions at Ashurst, quite a few songs got adapted in this way to make them into chorus songs. Why not? If the audience like singing, they'll probably be pleased to find there's a chorus. I suspect that some songs that were once chorus songs have lost their choruses or refrain lines because solo recording artists may choose to leave them out. Nothing wrong with that, either - singing solo on a recording or on a big concert platform with PA can make choruses a bit pointless. But singing to and with a group of other singers is quite different, and requires a different approach. Go for it - just say, "This is the chorus" and they'll take it from you. |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Leadfingers Date: 23 May 06 - 07:35 PM Great Mind ?? Me?? Some how I doubt that !! Any way , Mick posted first !! Perhaps I am a Big Mick Clone ?? |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Bonecruncher Date: 23 May 06 - 08:34 PM God, I hope there's not another one like you, Leadfingers. Colyn. |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 May 06 - 09:01 PM Sorry, I'm late to this party, but I too would have said, "Ignore the W*****s and sing it the way that gives enjoyment to you". Making your own arrangement annoys the 'wannabees', and makes you feel good. Of course, I'm just a know nothing Fool... :-) |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Northerner Date: 24 May 06 - 04:32 AM Thank you all. The main problem that seems to arise is when I sing a song at a folk club and sing a chorus - only to find that the folk club knows a slightly different version! |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 24 May 06 - 04:38 AM Who has suggested otherwise, or that anybody would mind a chorus? The song seems to have been found once only in tradition; in Yorkshire as it happens. Charles Lolley noted it, and sent it to Frank Kidson. Tune and first verse appeared in The Journal of the Folk-Song Society, I (5) 1904, 251. A "full" lyric was later printed in Kidson & Moffat, English Peasant Songs, 1929. I don't have that, so I don't know where the additional text came from; it's possible that Frank's niece Ethel wrote it. The DT transcription assumes that "my" in folksong must always be spelled "me". I don't know why people think that; perhaps they imagine that it sounds more "authentic". Kidson noted a similarity in the tune to Kitty O'Hea; for which, see Stanford-Petrie II, no. 512 (Donegal; "from Mr Allingham"). |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 24 May 06 - 04:46 AM I should add that my first sentence was directed at "Foolstroupe", who seems to have joined this particular "party" with some personal, and irrelevant, preconceptions. |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Northerner Date: 24 May 06 - 12:48 PM Hello Malcolm The finding of the song in Yorkshire ties in with the recording by the Watersons. I do have that somewhere - provided I can play the LP. I'll sing it with the chorus as that is the way I learnt it originally. Some of the words that I sing are slightly different to the Maddy Prior and Tim Hart version anyway. |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: pavane Date: 25 May 06 - 02:16 AM The tune is actually in O'Neill's Music of Ireland - can't remember offhand what it is called there, as I don't have the book with me. (Oh, yes, and I often say 'me' instead of 'my' - East London upbringing I suppose.) |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 25 May 06 - 08:19 PM I frequently say it (for the same reasons) but it's just a local pronounciation of "my", so I don't write it that way. An "ethnographic" transcription from a traditional singer might usefully reflect pronounciation, but one made from a performance by a professional (rather than traditional) singer should not do so, as that tends to give people the false impression that that is how the words ought to be sung. I don't find a tune in O'Neill that sounds like this one, but that doesn't mean it's not there under another name. The tune in Stanford-Petrie is certainly cognate. The Maid with the Long Birches (?Breeches), found in Dorset and Somerset in the early years of the C20 has a similar structure and ends on the same notes; whether (as A L Lloyd suggested) there is any real link, I couldn't say. Probably the tune is Irish; probably the words are not. |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Northerner Date: 26 May 06 - 04:35 AM I sang this at the Cutty Wren Folk Club last night, together with Dainty Davie. I think I need to do a little more work on Dainty Davie, but Sorry the Day I Was Married went down very well indeed and quite a number of people complimented me on my singing. So I think I'll sing Sorry the Day I Was Married again tonight at the Globe Folk Club. Thank you all for your advice. |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 May 06 - 08:35 AM Pavane - I don't find the title in my indexing of O'Neill, or any of my other few most used books; but it's not rare for a song to use a tune known by another name. A cross-reference to a common tune name would be of interest if your memory dredges up the connection. The title does appear in The Irish Woman's Songbook, ©1986 Carmel O Boyle editor, Mercer Press, ISBN 0 85342 783 6, with a tune (and 6 verses); but I guess I'm not "Irish" enough to recognize the tune by another name, and I don't have the references at hand to tell whether the tune shown is the same as those others have mentioned or that the performers cited have used. John |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: MAG Date: 26 May 06 - 08:48 AM A group called, I think, Gaping Maw sang this the way you described. I heard them shing this in another lifetime, and have the tape buried here somewhere. They ended it by just trailing off. I'll give a look for it after this holiday weekend (here in the U.S.)and I'm not running around crazy. |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Northerner Date: 26 May 06 - 09:04 AM I do have a tape of it sung at a singaround by a club singer, but it is buried underneath a pile of newspapers I think. Must do some housework. :( |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Leadfingers Date: 26 May 06 - 09:07 AM Northener - Remember the voice is an instrument like any other and needs to be practised ! Good luck with the singing . |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Northerner Date: 26 May 06 - 10:33 AM Thank you Leadfingers. Yes, I am trying to fit in practice time. I had a head cold straight after my sister's funeral, and head colds often affect my voice. I've recovered from it now and my voice is back in form again. |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Joe Offer Date: 26 May 06 - 02:27 PM Not much on htis son in the Traditional Ballad Index. The only songbook citation is from the Digital Tradition. The DT version is from the Maddy Prior and Tim Hart versiion. Sorry the Day I Was MarriedDESCRIPTION: Married woman recounts the miseries of her life and wishes she hadn't married: "Sorry the day I was married, Sorry the day I was wed; It's Oh, if I only had tarried When I to the altar was led." She recalls all the good things she had before marriageAUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: KEYWORDS: marriage abuse humorous FOUND IN: REFERENCES (1 citation): DT, SRRYMRRY* Roud #1561 CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "I Wish I Were a Single Girl Again" cf. "I Wish I Were Single Again (II - Female)" cf. "Single Girl, Married Girl" cf. "When I Was Young (II)" (theme) cf. "Sporting Bachelors" cf. "For Seven Long Years I've Been Married" (theme) Notes: Most "male" versions of this song go under the title of "The Sporting Bachelors," as they consist of the married man warning the bachelors of the abuse he suffers. His wife "swears [he's] obliged to maintain her" and lives well while "toss[ing him] bones" and leaving him dressed in rags. - RBW File: WB2046 Go to the Ballad Search form The Ballad Index Copyright 2006 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 May 06 - 06:58 PM Taking a second look at the tune in the Irish Woman's Songbook I can't seem to make the notation shown fit the lyric. The lyric seems to fit an 8-bar phrase, but the notation shows only 6 measures. It looks like a couple of phrase endings should have held for a beat or two, but were notated in straight eighths. I may have to resort to hearing one of the recordings. It probably isn't one I'd sing, so I may not look too hard. John |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Joe Offer Date: 27 May 06 - 02:17 AM I'd agree, John. the tune from the Irish Woman's songbook just doesn't fit the lyric. Here 'tis: Click to play-Joe- |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: Northerner Date: 27 May 06 - 05:17 AM Thnaks Joe. That tune is slightly faster than the way it is sung but it is certainly the melody of the first line. I have words that are slightly different from the Tim Hart and Maddy Prior version. Maybe I should upload them onto this site? It looks like I am going to be teaching this to the club I went to last night. My singing of it was fine but the club audience didn't know the song so the choruses were a bit thin. I've suggested bringing copies of the words with me next time I sing it there and the club organiser has asked me for the words so that he can learn it. It's a good song and I sing it well so it worth my while continuing to sing it and improve my singing of it. |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: JohnInKansas Date: 27 May 06 - 05:25 AM Actually Joe, the IW tune is, I think, the same one as the .mid, but "strangely notated." The IW notation is in 6/8 time, but it's phrased as a 3/4 tune (or 3/8), which makes the phrasing look strange in the IW since some (logical) phrases end in the middle of measures. It's also notated as a "D" song, but then all the C# notes are moved back to naturals, which effectively means it's a "G" song written on a "D" staff (chords shown are G and D). The notation is essentially all eighth notes, with no holds or pauses (not even commas) for the phrase endings. But if you fix those minor things it looks like it really is about the same. MIDIs are pretty easy for tunes, but it's hard to get the inflections in timing just right for songs. Lots of Irish songs seem to need a "loose" phrasing, and maybe that's why so many Irish songs sound better unaccompanied - or would if people would play 'em that way.(?) I've heard too little Scots music that sounds "authentically performed" to tell, but I assume the songs need somewhat the same free flow. John |
Subject: ADD Version: Sorry the Day I Was Married From: Joe Offer Date: 27 May 06 - 01:04 PM I've got the book open, so I guess I'll transcribe it if you don't mind, John. I think you have a point about the tune - notation just can't completely convey all the nuances of a cappella singing. I have the same trouble with the notation in Sam Henry's Songs of the People - but one you add natural pauses, the Sam Henry tunes work quite well. -Joe Offer- SORRY THE DAY I WAS MARRIED Sorry the day I was married And sorry the day I was wed And it's O, if I only had tarried When I to the altar was led. Sweet William sure there's no pleasing For let women do what they can Always your heart he'll be teasing For that is the way of a man. When I was a young girl I was bonny Had silks and fine jewels to wear Red were my cheeks like a berry My heart it was free from all care. Silks now I have none for the wearing My jewels have all flown away Surely this life is past bearing I'm pale as a primrose today. So think all you girls 'ere you marry Stand fast by your sweet liberty As long as you can you must tarry And not be lamenting like me. For it's sorry the day I was married And sorry the day I was wed And it's O, if I only had tarried When I to the altar was led. from the Irish Woman's Songbook Click to playHow do you sing this from a male perspective, John? Up above, I've transferred a chords request from Jon, although it would be a shame to use a guitar with this song. Here are the chords from the Irish Woman's Songbook: SORRY THE DAY I WAS MARRIED D G |
Subject: ADD Verxsion: Sorry the Day I Was Married From: Northerner Date: 27 May 06 - 01:27 PM Thank you Joe. Here's the version that I have. I believe this was transcribed from a Scottish singer called Janice Clark, who sang it a singaround up in Aberdeen over 30 years ago. I have a tape recording of her singing it. We kept in touch for a few years after I left Aberdeen but eventually we lost touch. I believe she surfaced a few years ago to sing at a tribute to Jeannie Robertson. Janice was a very fine singer. SORRY THE DAY I WAS MARRIED Sorry the day I was married And sorry the day I was wed And it's oh how I wish I had tarried When I to the altar was led. For young William there is no pleasing Although I do all that I can For it's always my heart he's a teasing For that is the way of a man. When I was a young girl I was merry I'd silks and I'd satins to wear And it's red were my cheeks like a berry My heart it was free from all care. Silks now I have none for the wearing My jewels have all gone astray And it's this life there can be no bearing I'm pale as a primrose today. So think all you girls 'ere you're married Hold fast to your dear liberty For you too may wish you had tarried As I do lament here today. (the first verse is used as a chorus) |
Subject: RE: Sorry the day I was married query From: JohnInKansas Date: 27 May 06 - 01:29 PM Joe - I'm afraid I haven't sung this one, and probably won't. It was interesting mostly because it's getting rare for me to find something in my piles of books that anyone wants to know about. We've pretty will "mined out" what we've got. The MIDI plays about like I finally figured it out. It extracts to my notation program as in C, and in 6/8 time. For scoring I think I'd put it in a 3/8 or 3/41 time signature to show better how it fits the verse phrasing, and if the G/D chords that IW shows are any good, probably in G for a key signature. Actually, once you figure out how the words fit with it, the sort of breathless-runon-nonstop "push" does sort of fit with a "mad-woman" delivery... ... ... It was just hard to "feel" it as notated. 1 To use 3/4 you'd need to swap in 1/4 notes for all the 1/8s. John |
Subject: Origins: Sorry the Day I Was Married From: Joe Offer Date: 27 May 06 - 02:17 PM Hey, maybe I could listen to some recordings of the song, instead of just looking at it in books. The DT tune and the MIDI I transcribed from the Irish Woman's Songbook are actually a pretty good rendering of what I hear on the Maddy Prior/Tim Hart recording on Topic's Acoustic Folk Box, and on Mike Waterson's self-titled CD. Mike Waterson sings a "woman's version" of the song - he doesn't bother adapting a man's version. Here are the Mike Waterson notes, from the CD booklet:
The harmony on the Prior/Hart recording is terrific. It's a shame the song lasts only a minute and 25 seconds. The DT has a pretty good transcription of the Prior/Hart lyrics, except that it's
-Joe- |
Subject: RE: Origins: Sorry the day I was married query From: Northerner Date: 27 May 06 - 03:46 PM Thank you all for your interest and for the information that you've brought up. It is likely that I will stick with the version that I have - after all, it is the oral tradition. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Sorry the day I was married query From: Joe Offer Date: 27 May 06 - 04:02 PM Well, you could add a "fa-la-la" chorus, like in the version from Lolley (Journal of the Folk-Song Society 1:5 (1904) p.251) - can anybody get the information from this article and post it for us? -Joe- |
Subject: RE: Origins: Sorry the day I was married query From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 27 May 06 - 07:02 PM X:1 T:Sorry the Day I was Married Z:Noted by Charles Lolley, Yorkshire. B:Journal of the Folk-Song Society, I (5) 1904 p 251. L:1/8 Q:1/4=100 M:9/8 K:A B e e B c d (c B) A|B e e B c d (d2 c)| w:Sor-ry the day I was mar_ried, Sor-ry the day I was wed,_ B e e B c d c B A|B A B E F A B3|| w:Oh! that I long-er had tar-ried Ere I to the al-tar was led. (EFG) B2 c d3|FBB A=GF E3|EF=G B2 c d3|A=GF E3 E3|] Kidson noted: "The tune and fragment of song were noted down in Yorkshire by Mr Charles Lolley. The air resembles one called 'Kitty O'Hay', published in the second part of Petrie's collection, p 45. I have heard that the song is known in other parts of Yorkshire, but have been unable to get a satisfactory set of the words." As I've said, the song later appeared (as 'Sorry the Day I Got Married') in Frank Kidson and Alfred Moffat, English Peasant Songs, 1929. Kidson died in 1926, and his niece Ethel Kidson prepared the song texts for publication. It is possible she added some material herself; she had in the past written new verses for songs that were not at that time considered suitable for publication. I don't know what the source for these particular verses (and the refrain, for which no words were printed in the Journal) was; but bear in mind at least the possibility that they may in part be a 20th century confection. The tune as recorded by Mike Waterson varies in parts from the above, and omits the refrain. Essentially, the melody is "regularised" and made more predictable. Mike himself would probably be responsible for that. Hart & Prior presumably learned it from him: his redaction of the Lolley set would almost certainly be, directly or indirectly, the source of all current examples, so, while quoting texts from favourite singers may tell us interesting things about the way people nowadays alter songs as they sing them, we needn't expect to learn anything about the song itself that way. A transcription of the Waterson arrangement (text only) can be seen at Garry Gillard's website: http://www.garrygillard.net/watersons/songs/sorry.html. A L Lloyd's comment to the effect that the tune is " an Irish slip jig called 'Scaip an drucht' " should not be taken as definitive; I hear only a slight resemblance, but of course it's perfectly possible that other, closer forms exist. The tune from Petrie is certainly closely related, however. Here it is for comparison. X:1 T:Kitty O'Hea S:'Donegal tune from Mr Allingham'. B:Petrie, Complete Collection of Irish Music, II, no.512 L:1/8 Q:1/4=100 M:9/8 K:E Bee Bc=d cBA|Bee Bc=d c2 B|Bee Bc=d cBA|BAB EFG B3:|| EFA B2 c=d3|EBB AGF G2 E|EFA B2 c=d3|EBB AGF E3|] |
Subject: RE: Origins: Sorry the day I was married query From: Northerner Date: 28 May 06 - 07:06 AM Thank you Malcolm! The Mike Waterson version looks excellent. I sang "Sorry the Day I Was Married" last night again at a second club. One of the singers there has asked me for a copy of the words, so I think I'll switch to the Waterson version - it looks like the best version. It also looks like I will need to provide a copy of the words for the audience at this particular club - it's a fairly new club and some of the audience are not too confident about following a singer's lead. They definitely want to join in chorus songs and are keen singers when they know a song. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Sorry the day I was married query From: BB Date: 28 May 06 - 06:49 PM I've been singing the song for more years than I care to remember, which may be the reason why I have no idea from where it came to me. The words I sing are virtually the same as Joe's version above, and I've always thought of it as a slip jig tune, i.e. in 9/8, giving one main accent at the beginning of each line. I have always tended to use the first verse as a chorus - it works well. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Sorry the day I was married query From: Northerner Date: 29 May 06 - 08:28 AM Thank you BB. Yes, I will work to put this song into my permanent repertoire. It went down well at both clubs, though I will need to teach the second club the words to it. Using the Mike Waterson text but using the first verse as chorus seems a good way to go. I can hit my notes perfectly and it really suits my voice and personality. I also sang "Dainty Davie" and "Busk, Busk (Bonny Glen Shee) last week but feel that they both need a little more work on them. Lovely songs though, so worth the work! |
Subject: RE: Origins: Sorry the day I was married query From: GUEST Date: 30 May 06 - 04:53 AM Northerner, Just one friendly word of advice, there are many reasons why an audience don't join in a chorus with gusto. It may be that they are enjoying your singing too much to want to drown it out. But it may also be that you may have picked a key that is difficult for most people, or that your timing is different to one they are used to, or even that they can't make out the words to join in. If a club has asked you to teach them the chorus, then that is fine, of course, but in my area (Midlands) I think most audiences would feel patronised if words were passed round to such a well known song. Why not just sing it again in a little while. You might be surprised how many people remember your version from the first outing and are ready to join in next time. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Sorry the day I was married query From: pavane Date: 30 May 06 - 05:14 AM The tune I found in O'Neills is NOT called 'Sorry the day...', but something totally different. I will try and remember to look it up this weekend - I don't have the book here. |
Subject: RE: Origins: Sorry the day I was married query From: Northerner Date: 30 May 06 - 06:17 AM Thank you Guest. I will pass on the words to the person who has requested them; he is one of the club's MCs and a member of the club's resident band. This is a fairly new club so it is possible that the song hasn't been sung here before. The club's non-performing members may need to hear the song a few times before it feels familiar to them. I will leave the song for a few weeks but bring some copies of words with me next time I sing it and say they are available if anyone would like to use them. I lived in Scotland for a year, up in Aberdeen, and have many songs that I would like to introduce them to eventually, all with fine choruses. Having a copy of words is not necessary at the other two weekly clubs that I go to as those clubs are long-established and there are likely to be a few singers who will join in with most songs. I think that the key I used for it should have been a comfortable one as I am a contralto and sing in a fairly low and mellow key, generally a third or a fourth below the key given in most song books. A lot of the club singers seem to be like me, most comfortable in the lower ranges. |
Share Thread: |
Subject: | Help |
From: | |
Preview Automatic Linebreaks Make a link ("blue clicky") |