Happy 65th Bob Dylan

Subject: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 24 May 06 - 03:30 PM

Wow, 65. So, fellow Dylan fans join me in wishing him the best. I'm sure that there will be the odd Dylan basher chiming in too.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 24 May 06 - 03:38 PM

Well, it's scary for us'ns who grew up with him to think of him as 65 ("retirement age"??). I was never, ever a fan of his voice...he wrote wonderfully, but couldn't sing worth a damn. "Lay, Lady Lay" I liked a lot, and "Like A Rolling Stone" and a few others. But usually, his best stuff was recorded by others (like "Blowing in the Wind").

Meanwhile, I don't like it A BIT that he is now 65!!! Makes me look/feel old, which I am in denial of currently. But, congrats nevertheless. Love him or hate him, he had a huge impact on music, performances, and attitudes. I should leave such a legacy! (not likely). Although, I DID have a "hit" no-one recorded around 1964 called "Blowin' In the Breeze." The Princeton Trio did it. Do you all have it? (BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 May 06 - 03:41 PM

It's my wifes birthday too - but Bretta isn't close to 65 yet. She's got about 17 years to go. Bretta always says that Bob Dylan is proof that some people should just write songs and not sing sing them. When we saw him and Paul Simon on tour together her review of Dylans performance was " He wasn't nearly as bad as I thought he was going to be".

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: alanabit
Date: 24 May 06 - 04:22 PM

I actually quite like his singing too. For me, he is a giant and always will be. I think he is someone whose importance to songwriting will only grow in esteem as the years go by. The enormity of what he was achieving, probably never even occurred to him, when he began his seminal work. He has extended the focus and range of subjects for songs to a level, which was unconceivable before he appeared. You can argue that other writers were better at certain things, but I believe that one was uniquely his.
Happy Birthday Bob Dylan.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Midchuck
Date: 24 May 06 - 04:39 PM

Tee hee, he's older than me....5 months...

Peter

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 May 06 - 04:44 PM

I have very rarely heard Dylan sung better than by Dylan, but I won't waste any more bandwidth explaining why that is... ;-D

I bet he wishes he wasn't this old. I know I do.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 24 May 06 - 05:35 PM

Little Hawk,

I couldn't agree with you more on both points. However, I will also say that I have rarely heard Dylan sung worse than Dylan. He has had some off nights.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Steve-o
Date: 24 May 06 - 06:13 PM

Happy Birthday Bobby. It was interesting to hear, on his new XM radio show, that his speaking voice is still kind of smooth and "youthful". His singing voice recently has been so grainy and choked that it's a bit of a surprise to hear him speak so "clearly". He is one of the all-time greats- a music hero of the highest degree.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 May 06 - 07:08 PM

But waht about Cate Blanchett playing the young Bob Dylan in a forth coming film ??

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Lanfranc
Date: 24 May 06 - 07:25 PM

What's Cate playing the young Bob at, Terry? Chess? (Only a Pawn in their Game); Cards? (Farewell Angelina)....

Daunting to realise that I've been singing his songs for over 40 years. But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

So is he, no doubt.

Happy Birthday, and thanks for the songs.

Alan

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 06 - 07:52 PM

I would like to add my birthday wishes to Bob for acquiring the distinguished status of senior citizen, may you wear it with pride and grace and remain forever young. You have been an inspiration to me since I was a high school student and would haul my Dylan records to teenage, suburban, basement playroom, Friday night parties and exhort my fellow partiers with "you've got to listen to the words, man." Needless to say this was not terribly popular, as records such as "The Times They Are A-Changing" were not exactly your Friday night party dance-and-make-out music.

As far as the comments about his singing go, I recently heard a university music professor discuss this very issue on an NPR radio program. He said that Dylan's singing was spot on as far as hitting the notes and being on pitch goes and what people seem to dislike is the timbre of his voice which is what makes him sound the way he does and is a physical attribute that is not changeable. He always sounded good to me but then again I have a wooden ear.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 06 - 08:43 PM

Bob, Happy birthday! I adore your singing! I adore your music! I adore your movies and books! I'll marry you or anything short of that and never mention your age if you don't want me to! I'll sign a prenup!You're still gorgeous and sexy and my favorite living musician!!!!! I watch Martin Scorsese's PBS documentary obsessively! I play your records over and over. I love you!!!!!!
(Paul is my second favorite but no matter....John Hartford was my first favorite but you have moved up the list!)

love, harpgirl

PS... God, I hope he reads this!

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 06 - 08:46 PM

Of course, Art's first on my married man list...then comes...guess who....l,h

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 May 06 - 08:52 PM

Agreed, Steve. ;-) No one has sung Dylan better than Dylan, and no one has sung Dylan worse than Dylan...although some have certainly tried. I think my favorite Dylan concert was when he split the show with Joni Mitchell...they were both great. Or else it was the Rolling Thunder Revue in '75. He was singing like an express train on that tour.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Big Tim
Date: 25 May 06 - 05:03 AM

"If there's an original thought out there, I could use one right now".

Happy 65th Bob, you've done it the hard way.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Van
Date: 25 May 06 - 10:32 AM

Has he got his bus pass - it would save him a fortune on tour! Keep rolling old man.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: the one
Date: 25 May 06 - 10:43 AM

glad you liked me song bobo till the next time.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,forever young
Date: 25 May 06 - 12:32 PM

Ah Bob Dylan
May he stay forever young
such great songs and a fine singer
and those songs such as Masters Of War and A Hard Rain's Gonna Fall are as relevant today as when they were written way back.And Bob is still not a spent force...he continues to challenge himself and his audiences......
Happy Birthday
ifor

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Pauline L
Date: 25 May 06 - 11:28 PM

Monday night I attended a concert called Dylan 65: A Birthday Tribute. (http://www.imtfolk.org/html/imt06_avantgardeners.html) It was sold out and fantastic. Several local (DC area) musicians and groups performed, and they were all outstanding. Many of them were too young to have heard Dylan in the 60s, but it was obvious that they all loved his songs. Some joked about being in competition as to who would play what. I saw the PBS special on Dylan a few months ago, and, like this concert, it jolted me back into recognition of how very powerful Dylan's songs were. Here is a collage of my reactions to some of these songs then and now.

I Shall Be Released.
I still believe it.

Mr. Tambourine Man
"My weariness amazes me, I'm branded on my feet,
I have no one to meet
And the ancient empty street's too dead for dreaming."
I felt this way for so long. I thought I had gotten past it, but I'm there again now, and I cried vehemently.

If Not for You
What a sweet love song.

The Times They are A'Changin'
I once made a Unitarian minister wince by saying that I thought that "The loser now will be later to win" was originally written by Bob Dylan.

Forever Young
I played this with a friend who sang it at the baptism of another friend's daughter. Years later, I tried to play it with a friend who was going to sing it to celebrate his wife's birthday, but...I guess we should have practiced. She enjoyed it anyway.

Chimes of Freedom
I still believe this one, too.

Everything Is Broken
It still hurts.

I'll Be Your Baby Tonight
I kind of like this sleazy, dirty old man song, but the woman who sang it Monday night made it seductive in a more appealing way.

Girl of the North Country
So sweet and sentimental that it sounds traditional.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 May 06 - 12:50 AM

Well, he beat me to 65 by a month and a half. He and I pledged the same frat at college, him at Minnesota and me at Illinois--but neither of us stayed to join. Both of us thought we'd rather pick guitar. Both our first names have 3 letters. My last name, Thieme, has 6 letters---one more than his last name-Dylan. His last name has 5 letters---one less than my last name. He and I were both born in 1941---me, a certain number of days after him-----and Bob, the same number of days before me...

I've heard it sid that coincidents are God's puns!!

Whatever!!??   ;-)

Art

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Pistachio
Date: 26 May 06 - 04:53 AM

I first heard Lay Lady Lay on a Juke box at training camp and I loved Dylans voice - thanks Pauline L for your collage - a mere snapshot of his work but a good reminder of the beauty of words.
Happy Birthday.
Hazel.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 06 - 01:02 PM

I've come very late to recognizing the talent of Bob Dylan. A musician friend sings a lot of his songs- Dylan and Van Zandt were the two formative influences in Buddy Tabor's singing and song writing life - and I've finally got so that I'm in awe of him. So many different subjects, so many different styles, such quotable pithiness...

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 06 - 01:18 PM

pithiness - an apt descriptive for his writing, as in good poetry.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 06 - 01:25 PM

He has a genius for coming up with memorable lines, and a lyric that has meanings on several different levels. I don't think he intended it that way, it just happened instinctively, automatically...and that's why it's so good.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Big Tim
Date: 26 May 06 - 02:23 PM

I was listening to "I and I" in the car today, not one of his best- known songs, and from a so-called "down/low" period (1983), but it's brilliant. Nobody else could possibly have imagined, let alone written this song. It's up there with the very best - and that is saying something.                                                   

As Dave Van Ronk said in his book, quoting from memory, "To be Bob Dylan, you have to write 'Hard Rain', the first time".

Even a "throwaway" song like "Neighbourhod Bully" (leaving aside politics, please),nobody else could have written.

"Talent" isn't the word, "genius" is, IMO.

I wish I could be around in 500 years time to hear the verdict. Meantime, he's the best I've heard.

Happy 65th Bob.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 06 - 02:35 PM

"I and I" is a terrific song. He did a lot of good stuff in the 80's, along with the very mediocre stuff that he also recorded at that time.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Big Tim
Date: 27 May 06 - 07:19 AM

LH, can I ask for your interpretation of "I and I"?

In the April 2006 issue of "Q", the British rock mag, there was a feature "Bob Dylan:the essential guide to 40 years of genius". It described "I and I" as follows:

"The title alone confirmed just how avidly Dylan had been soaking up he spiritual side of reggae. The introverted song confirmed just how brilliantly he got it".

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Brían
Date: 27 May 06 - 12:59 PM

I'm interested in what LH has to say as well. I suspect Bob would disavow so simple an explanation. I recall discussing this song in the one(1) philosophy class I took in the university, although I don't recall verbatim what we talked about.   

Brían

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 06 - 01:57 PM

"I and I" is probably about a whole lot of stuff, but it's not for me to say what. I can only speculate.

Here are the lyrics:

Been so long since a strange woman has slept in my bed.
Look how sweet she sleeps, how free must be her dreams.
In another lifetime she must have owned the world, or been faithfully wed
To some righteous king who wrote psalms beside moonlit streams.

I and I
In creation where one's nature neither honors nor forgives.
I and I
One says to the other, no man sees my face and lives.

Think I'll go out and go for a walk,
Not much happenin' here, nothin' ever does.
Besides, if she wakes up now, she'll just want me to talk
I got nothin' to say, 'specially about whatever was.

I and I
In creation where one's nature neither honors nor forgives.
I and I
One says to the other, no man sees my face and lives.

Took an untrodden path once, where the swift don't win the race,
It goes to the worthy, who can divide the word of truth.
Took a stranger to teach me, to look into justice's beautiful face
And to see an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

I and I
In creation where one's nature neither honors nor forgives.
I and I
One says to the other, no man sees my face and lives.

Outside of two men on a train platform there's nobody in sight,
They're waiting for spring to come, smoking down the track.
The world could come to an end tonight, but that's all right.
She should still be there sleepin' when I get back.

I and I
In creation where one's nature neither honors nor forgives.
I and I
One says to the other, no man sees my face and lives.

Noontime, and I'm still pushin' myself along the road, the darkest part,
Into the narrow lanes, I can't stumble or stay put.
Someone else is speakin' with my mouth, but I'm listening only to my heart.
I've made shoes for everyone, even you, while I still go barefoot.

I and I
In creation where one's nature neither honors nor forgives.
I and I
One says to the other, no man sees my face and lives.

So...there's a lot to look into there. I'd say it's mostly about Bob's discomfort within the constrictions of his own mortal mind and mortal life...like the rest of us. Life can be uncomfortable. He envies the woman as she sleeps, apparently at peace. He is not at peace. He indicates a belief that we live many lives, a belief he has expressed in some other songs as well. I share that belief.

The most striking thing in this song is the chorus, "I and I.
In creation where one's nature neither honors nor forgives.
I and I. One says to the other, no man sees my face and lives.

I think he is drawing a parallel between the eternal Self (or God-Self) and the mortal self, the ephemeral personality that mostly appears to run the show while one is here living a physical life. The mortal self lives in fear, need, and desire. It wants to love, but fears to lose itself in the process. It generally lacks love or mercy, holds grudges, lies to itself and others, "neither honors nor forgives". That is the immense tragedy of the human existence. The mortal self thinks it is the whole self, but it's not. It is accompanied at all times by the Divine Self, the eternal Being from which it sprang as a mere extension...but it denies that Divine Self in its every mean attempt at its wretched automony and separation...an autonomy that is doomed to end in dissolution and defeat...a rebellion that is fated to achieve nothing but its own demise.

The mortal "I" dares not look upon the face of the Divine "I", because in that moment the mortal "I" will perish and cease to be. The real Self will not perish, of course, it cannot...but the entire elaborate ego structure that the mortal self built up in its desperate attempt to (supposedly) defend itself against all the things it fears...that WILL die at the moment it looks into the face of the Divine Self that it truly is. It will die, because it will realize in that moment that it and all its fears and desires are totally unreal. It will become as one who never was. It will cease to be. That dissolution it interprets as "death". That is not death. That is the flowering forth of the only life that ever was real in the first place, the life of the unlimited and eternal Self.

That which is real is eternal. That which is not passes away.

The song is full of the despair and discomfort of the ephemeral, struggling self...longing for peace, and not finding it...longing for completion, yet incomplete by its very nature...he looks for completion in the woman, but he can't find it there. Still, he will go back to her, not having found a much better solution to his loneliness.

The "stranger" who taught him to look into Justice's beautiful place is probably Jesus, I would guess. It is the Christ within each person that teaches such things (and that's not a purely Christian matter at all, it's a Universal matter, and it was understood long before Christianity was ever heard of or thought of on this planet).

Dylan evokes despair in the song, because he's trapped in the limitations of a declining mortality...as we all are. He feels that there is something greater, matter of fact he knows it, but he can't actualize it. He's ready for the "world to end". It doesn't really matter. Worlds can end, but pure Being goes on regardless.

That's my interpretation. I have no way of knowing if Bob thought of any of that, or meant any of it in the song. I suspect he wrote that song by sheer instinct, not by intention or conscious design.

It's a song that provokes a lot of thought, and it carries a powerful punch.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 May 06 - 02:54 PM

Well all I can say is 'RUBBISH' Bob Dylan cannot be 65 years old, for if it were true then I would be 63, and that is patently impossible!!
Giok

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Brían
Date: 27 May 06 - 03:18 PM

The textbook for the philosophy class was titled, interestingly, Self and World I underlined a passage by david Hume from an article titled, On Self Identity:

"For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe anything but the perception."

Brían

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Big Tim
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:00 AM

Thanks LH, my mind was on similar lines (I think!) but I could never have expressed it so articulatley. And thanks for taking the time to type out the lyrics: they are superb, even in simple black and white without music. It really annoys me when people with of average talent say "Dylan just writes rubbish", or words to that effect. They should take a serious look at the lyrics of "I and " and the scores of other great songs that he has written over a period of 40-plus years.

On a lighter note, re Davie Hume;

David Hume ate a swinging great dinner,
And very day grew fatter and fatter,
And yet the huge bulk of a sinner,
Said there was neither spirit nor matter!

James Beattie (1735-1803) on the author of "Treatise of Human Nature".(from "Scottish Quotations" by David Ross, 2001).

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Brían
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:15 AM

My, my! Nursery rhymes for eggheads!

Brían

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Haruo
Date: 28 May 06 - 02:40 PM

Pauline wrote "I once made a Unitarian minister wince by saying that I thought that "The loser now will be later to win" was originally written by Bob Dylan."

So who wrote it then? (Some famous Unitarian?) I mean, the idea is certainly not Dylan's own, Jesus (Trinitarian or Unitarian, it makes no difference) said the same and doubtless others did before him. But was there a pre-Bob-Dylan source for the specific wording?

Haruo

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Brían
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:15 PM

What I find compelling about Dylan's work is the richness of imagery and variety of intellectual sources that he is infusing his work. There is certaintly plenty of references to the Old and New Testament that would make a superficial reading of the song as a statement of religious belief. Dylan is much too elusive and mature in his writing at this point in his career to stop there. Images of the two men smoking on the platform waiting for Spring to come and the untrodden road call to mind Woody Guthries's rendition of POOR BOY and Robert Frost's Road Less Traveledwithout mentioning Frost, Guthrie, the poem, the song or its melody. The song descibes a soul tormented, looking for relief, constantly seeking yet never finding, alienated from society, looking to Literature, Poetry, Philosophy and still flying by the seat of one's pants, never fully trusting one source. Religion offers salvation. By his own account, he has never arrived there, although he feels he has the capacity to save, or at least comfort others.   

Brían

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:53 PM

Well said, Brian.

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Brían
Date: 28 May 06 - 06:06 PM

Thanks, LH. I've been wanting to weigh in on this thread.

Brían

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Brían
Date: 29 May 06 - 10:12 AM

Curiously enough, I popped off those comments as I was getting ready to go to Mass. The song and this discussion have an unsettling resonance in light of the Pope's questioning aloud to God how he, as a German and Christian could remain mute during the Holocaust.

Brían

Subject: RE: Happy 65th Bob Dylan
From: Beer
Date: 29 May 06 - 04:01 PM

When Dylan pulled out an electric guitar at Newport, he created "Folk Rock".
He's the best and always will be. Love Kris Kristofferson,John Prine and Gordon Lightfoot, but Dylan!! there is no other.

Beer