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Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig
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Subject: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 26 May 06 - 08:36 PM How picky are you, and what are YOUR criteria? I turned one down today. I accepted the same gig last year and it went as crappy as I knew it likely would be. I feel GREAT about not having it hanging over my head, and I already had our band OK'd on whichever decision I might make (I do our booking). What are your criteria? Has that changed over time? What have been some of your learning lessons that guide you now? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Clinton Hammond Date: 26 May 06 - 09:57 PM Not enough $$ or an unwillingness to make up for short cash with other perks (food, drink, lodging, whores....) "it went as crappy as I knew it likely would be" Sounds like self-fulfilling prophecy to me.... at the very very very least every GIG can be a paid rehearsal..... Actually there's one even better... a few years ago at a pub-in-a-can downtown, a chum of mine was playing a regular Tuesday night gig when a bunch of FKN-soccer-ball-licking-a$$holes came in, and when he wouldn't only play the bigoted and misogynist music they wanted to hear, they booed him off the stage.... I was sat at the bar when one of these FK-holes came over.... he stood beside me and said "We sure showed him..." I lit a smoke, inhaled deeply and exhaled these words right into this ignorant mthrfkrs face.... "Oh ya.... he just got paid a whole nights cash for 4 songs, and now is free to go elsewhere and not endure you, while you pay the bar back his wage.... You really showed him eh...." I then got up, helped my chum out with his gear, and we went to a lovely pub where we spent the night pounding pints, tossing darts and laughing at moron-soccer-fans..... Every gig has a silver lining, if you're willing to find it |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: stallion Date: 27 May 06 - 05:31 AM South Shields this year, One of the Wilson's had pulled out of the gig and we "stood in", I came out of the Coronary Care ward on the wednesday, played it on the Sunday and was back in Coronary care on monday morning. a) I was not at all well during the performance and so I thought it was sub standard, b) I seriously risked my well being. In hindsight I should have pulled out but I hate dissapointing people, I am of the school that if you say you are going to do something you do it. We are doing a charity gig next month, someone offered us a paid gig on the same evening, the charity gig came first, that is the one we shall be doing. Peter |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Roughyed Date: 27 May 06 - 08:05 AM My band played a gig at a club which was not particularly brilliant but the organiser like us and booked us for St Patricks Night which was about nine months away. In the meantime we acquired a really good agent, gigged all over the place and tripled our fee. We were offered another St Patricks night gig for about four times what we were getting from the club but turned it down on the grounds that a gig is a gig and we had effectively given our word. Anyway St Patrick's night arrived there were about five people in the audience and it was a lousy gig (we were brilliant of course!). It turned out that open warfare had broken out on the committee and we had fallen foul of their internal politics. I still think we were right to do it but it still rankles a bit. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Hamish Date: 27 May 06 - 08:24 AM Domestic pressure.... ~8^( |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rockhen Date: 27 May 06 - 08:27 AM Nice to hear there is still honour among musicians to stick by their promises. We haven't had any gigs that were dire...most have some redeeming feature, even if just being an experience to relate in an amusing way at a later date...however we have had some interesting ones... One gig was an outside private party in someone's garden. We were well into the last set which people did seem to be enjoying,honest!... when, the party host decided it would be nice if people could have some other entertainnment ready for when we finished. He then proceeded to get a lawnmower out and started mowing and area near our stage so that people could play the the game (I think it had a golf theme...) more easily....we wouldn't have minded but he forgot to tune the mower and it was in totally the wrong key... |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: stallion Date: 27 May 06 - 08:46 AM G works as a good drone! |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: DMcG Date: 27 May 06 - 09:34 AM Swan Arcade (Jim Boyes, Heather & Dave Brady, with a solid 'Trad. English Folk' set of songs) wrote on the sleeve notes of their first LP:
... nothing too picky there, I think! |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 27 May 06 - 09:44 AM Let me hasten to say-- we did not bail on a booked gig, but just declined a repeat the following year when the early signs of organizer chaos were, once again, present. We've had a lot of bum gigs that were nightmarish in one sense but that did offer us something positive we were grateful for-- we all have to pay our dues when we start out; we've been grateful for every opportunity. So what I am looking for is your experiences in declining-- what have been the factors that went into your decisions to say, once in awhile, "Thanks for thinking of us but we'll have to pass on the opportunity this time," other than being already booked. One factor for me was the health factor-- three of the four of us are somewhat mobility-challenged. This gig was particularly trying a year ago, and none of us have gotten much stronger since then! :~) I'm not asking you all if I did right-- I am asking you when and how you found yourself being able to say a gracious "no thanks." ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Max Date: 27 May 06 - 10:33 AM Last year we took most any gig we could. It was our first year, the thrill was there, we needed the practice and experience, so it made sense. 2 of us have kids, a third a husband and farm, and all but one of us had a full time job (there was 7 in our band at the time). We need to make sure that it's worth our time to do it. Not just money, but exposure and opportunity too (free beer caries a bit of weight as well). Our band is now 4. 2 of the fellers split off because they wanted to do music full time. We're still quite close and gig with them often, but 3 of us just had no interest in the grind to "make it". We already made it as far as I was concerned. These guys now gig like maniacs, almost every night. The rest of us take maybe a gig a week, sometimes 2 as long as the price is right. We try not to play for less than $300, but that changes with opportunity. We took a gig with no guarantee a few weeks ago because it was the new "hot joint" in Wilmington. Turned out that we were on the bill with 4 hard core rock bands. In situations like that, we just turn it into a fun night out. We killed, but the only people there were the other bands and their girlfriends. I don't like vanity gigs. I feel real good where we are right now. Our name is around town, 3 towns in fact, and the offers come to us. We take them or leave them depending on the compensation, fun factor, exposure etc, on a case to case basis. We don't sweat it. We know we can have just as much fun in the rehearsal room anyhow. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Clinton Hammond Date: 27 May 06 - 10:48 AM "we all have to pay our dues when we start out" You never stop paying your dues.... I'll play for good money... I'll play for a good cause.... I'll play for a good time.... If none of the three are there, I'll play for myself |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Barbara Shaw Date: 27 May 06 - 11:03 AM Since we're not full-time musicians, we all have other sources of income, so we're not dependent on the money. And since I'm the one doing all the booking, publicity, web maintenance, personnel issues, scheduling, cd sales, etc. I pick and choose the gigs I like that fit into our life. As a result, I've turned down many gigs that happened when Frank (husband) and I were planning to go to a festival or other event, even ones we had done in previous years. I've also effectively turned down private party gigs by making the price too high, when the occasion didn't look like something that would be a good fit for us. And I've turned down bar gigs and background music gigs. Been there, don't need to do that anymore. Some of these refusals, by the way, do not make other members of the band happy, but then all they have to do is show up and play music. The booking, publicity, personnel, web, cd etc job is always up for bids... The good thing about turning down gigs (aside from the personal empowerment) is that I get the chance to steer some gigs to friends who have done similar favors for us. That is very gratifying and also a good thing for the friends and works for the promoter as well. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Clinton Hammond Date: 27 May 06 - 11:17 AM " The booking, publicity, personnel, web, cd etc job is always up for bids..." I suspect you'd have to suck it up and play a lot of gigs if someone else was doing the booking..... :-) "I get the chance to steer some gigs to friends" Very nice indeed! |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Barbara Shaw Date: 27 May 06 - 12:00 PM Right, Clinton. In fact, I'm having to "suck it up" this Fall doing a private party for a band member's relative. Only fair, because he's done many "good causes" for us in the past. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Clinton Hammond Date: 27 May 06 - 12:06 PM You make it sound as if you don't want to be there |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 27 May 06 - 12:12 PM Well, we're not exactly a band, but I have new rule - no more nursing homes unless a member of the staff agrees to stay with us. The last time, two residents got into an angry argument and a kitchen worker started vacuuming right near us. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Barbara Shaw Date: 27 May 06 - 12:15 PM It might be fun, but generally I'm not crazy about playing at private parties. My ideal gig is a concert situation where people are there specifically to hear music, or specifically to support some cause that I also support. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Clinton Hammond Date: 27 May 06 - 12:39 PM Any room with a stage.... I'll find an audience :-) |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: EBarnacle Date: 27 May 06 - 01:03 PM Many times over the years, people have come to me and asked my to get my friends/group to perform. When I ask them how much they are paying, I am told that they have no money but that the cause is good and we will get good exposure. My response to them is that "We only play for good causes but we cannot eat exposure." As a rule, I have found that people who do not pay treat you poorly in other ways. When I volunteer, it's my choice, not the sponsor's. When I run a gig, I make sure the people are taken care of. As a result, my friends are willing to work for less or free if I ask them to. Then again, reputation is everything. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Clinton Hammond Date: 27 May 06 - 01:08 PM " I have found that people who do not pay treat you poorly in other ways." Really? Every freebie I've ever played for so far (Knock wood) has treated me VERY well.... |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,petr Date: 27 May 06 - 01:39 PM I agree with Ebarnacle, when I first started I did free gigs, and you definitely get treated differently when youre not paid. THings change if you ask for even a token amount like 20$ gas money you do get treated with more respect. No one asks an accountant to do free accounting for some good cause even though he loves his work, but theyve no problem asking musicians or artists. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,Gin Date: 27 May 06 - 05:37 PM We charge a fee and then give back the money at the end if we feel it's appropriate- in UK they can even claim tax back so they get more back than they paid ( I think!!) |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: stallion Date: 28 May 06 - 04:02 AM I agree with the last comment, it is a bit off thread but I think worthy of note. We came in for a bit of flak about not charging for our services, it was undermining the people who were trying to make a living/break even with folk music. Now we have a nominal fee for charities which is usually "returned", ie. a percentage of the "gate". In fact no money changes hands. Regular folk clubs it is the going rate. Private parties - food drink and cd sales! |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: BB Date: 28 May 06 - 07:13 PM To those who say, "There's no money in it, but think of the exposure...", the reply might be, "I've known people to die of exposure!" Most people that offer that are trying to get music for free, and are more likely to be business people than charities, in my experience. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Alaska Mike Date: 28 May 06 - 08:49 PM I was asked to play at a bluegrass festival in Anderson, Alaska for the last weekend of July coming up. They offered free admission and $40 which is not even enough to pay for the fuel to drive to the place. Shortly after I turned them down, I was asked to perform at a fair in Delta Junction, Alaska for the same weekend. They offered a plane ticket to Fairbanks, a rental car for me to drive to the fair and have for the weekend, lodging in a hotel in town and $400 bucks on top of it all. Needless to say, I certainly was glad to have turned down the bluegrass folks. Money is not always a concern for me, in fact I perform many shows throughout the year for no fee and still do pretty good with CD sales, but I've gotten pickier over the last few years. Will the gig interfere with my need for a periodic fishing trip. Does the gig provide decent beer and food. Is it a campout or is there a bed to sleep on. Who is the audience and what are the chances for sales. These are some of the things that I use for decision making. Since I'm a solo act, I don't have to run the offer past anyone but myself. Mike |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,EBarnacle Date: 29 May 06 - 07:41 AM Let me revise my last post. The problem is with people who expect you to work for free for their cause. They refuse to see music as a profession, simply as a way to entertain. As mentioned, how many doctors or accountants offer their services for free--or are even asked to? |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 29 May 06 - 08:55 AM well, in this neck of the world some accountants are known to offer their services as Honourary Auditors to small not-for-profit organisations, including some folk organisations. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: stallion Date: 29 May 06 - 09:28 AM now children, it doesn't matter what other people do it is how one conducts oneself, Alaska Mike (when do I get an invite to go fishing?) had good fortune at someone elses parsimony. I think the maxim, "each to his/her needs" and gigs taken on their merits. Yes we got shafted fairly recently, we waived our P.R. fee for a local radio station who sold the show nationally, think of the exposure! (yes we did consider that). Ultimately I thought of the greater good of taking folk music to a wider audience, a better deal.(incidentally, of all the tracks we did(live concert) the finished programme included what we thought were our three weakest songs.!) PS Are there any places that eat performers alive, warning notices will serve us all! |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Alaska Mike Date: 29 May 06 - 10:14 AM Stallion, you are most welcome to attend any of the numerous Alaska Mike fishing seminars that take place throughout the summer. The seminars have no registration fees, but you must supply your own license and gear. They include transportation from Anchorage to a variety of pre-selected fishing hot spots in a diesel guzzling 4x4 pickup truck, songs & stories which may or may not be true, careful instruction on fly tying and method, and a fold out couch bed to sleep on when the trip is over. Sometimes these seminars are planned well in advance, but usually they occur on the spur of the moment desire to get away from it all. Let me know if you're interested. Mike |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Big Al Whittle Date: 29 May 06 - 08:12 PM its an awful trade off really. you have to feel your way and work out what's right for you. I always think there is something a bit missing with artists who have never really had to compromise and play what the public wants. obviously that doesn't obtain with classical music. But folk - well people is really what its all about. In England we have a class of folk musician who has been cocooned by great critical success, and big recording deals. and its really bloody sad in a way. because they never learn the essentials of the rhythms that people dance to, and that ordinary folk sing along to - naturally that is, not just cos its the correct response in the holy sepulchre of the folk club. they don't learn their craft - and in a way that's why we don't have a living folk culture. you can do too many crap gigs, but if you never do them, never have to succeed with an audience to put food on the table - then something will always be missing. that's what I think. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 29 May 06 - 08:47 PM "they don't learn their craft" Actually, this DOES apply very strongly to 'classical musicians', both 'orchestral players' and 'soloists'. Orchestral players just don't get the jobs if they don't display the 'right stuff' at the auditions - if you don;t show that you know the 'rules' you are not wanted - if you can't keep proper time, play out of tune etc. Soloists, because they are not working under the same rule, i.e. they 'interpret' things have a slightly different set of rules to work under. But they too have to 'audition' in a way. If they enter a large competition, they will either stand out from the rest, and thus come to notice, because they will usually end up near the top finishers, or they will be 'just another also ran', and thus unnoticed. For them to crack a recording contract, they have ALREADY done 'the hard yards'. With 'pop', 'rock' and 'folk' 'artists', it is usually the whim of some uneducated non-musical accountant type who decides if a contract should be given. They often don't get it right - witness the large number of performers who get endless knock backs until they 'strike it lucky', and the tales of promoters who got it wrong - the "I coulda signed the Beatles, but I didn't like their music!" w*nkers! Also, with a mostly 'recorded music "industry"' - like the 'comedian industry' - the changes in society which once fostered growing of talents via lots of live public performances which may have taken 10 -20 years to acquire the skills, such a way of life has mostly vanished, and "instant fame" is now expected as the normal thing. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Effsee Date: 29 May 06 - 09:34 PM I'm intrigued.."In England we have a class of folk musician who has been cocooned by great critical success, and big recording deals." Come on WLD, name names, who are you talking about? |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 29 May 06 - 09:55 PM WLD, yes. You've nailed it (again). In our particular genre, and with the types of offers with which we are beset, what you are talking about is a large consideration. We HAVE learned what people want. When an organizer who knows zip wants to tell us what we are wanted for, it's really hard to wrap my head around the fact that they don't really understand that we are not what they are looking for, and that their event wouldn't do well even if we were willing to do what they ask. We generate something quite special.... most organizers in this tiny, sparse market haven't the vision to recognize that unique thing as a reality to be hoped for. We're very good at what we do-- and so one of my criteria, I am coming to see, is whether the offer is a chance to do what we do or merly an effort to fill a slot with something they hope will have some buzz. And I'm not here to spread buzz for them. Another is, will the logistics work for us with the limited strength at our disposal between us? Will it be physically possible for us to manage the location, the gear, and the tech end? And about supporting causes-- I do NOT support the very skewed cause this recent offer entailed. Our band DOES support the next two items on the table. I'll finish planning for them, and we'll do them over the summer. About "exposure," I think I feel like Max describes above. We ground out some really crap gigs to become known in our area. It must have worked because we get more offers than we can accept-- we suddenly woke up one morning to find we were now considered a fixture in the community, not "who are they and what do they do?" But even back in the days we played just out of gratitude for the call, often beyond or strength, we didn't say yes to ALL the offers. We all either have day jobs or caregiving responsibilities to juggle. I'm just sad the world is so hungry for music that we (all of us) can't fill every request. People ought to learn to do some music for themselves, is what I think. I like the idea of steering gigs to friends-- but I'd do it by making new friends who might be musicians under their terror, too. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Midchuck Date: 29 May 06 - 10:15 PM My pet peeve is an otherwise worthwhile organization who asks us to play gratis. I think, "well, it's a cause I'd like to support; and it sounds like it might be a good time," and I say yes. Then they say, "And, oh, as long as you're coming, would you mind bringing your sound system? And I'm sure you won't mind if the other band that's playing after you uses it? And if we borrow it for a couple of speeches?" OK, I'm exaggerating - a little. But I have an iron clad rule now: Play for free if the cause is worth it and the gig sounds like fun. But seven times never do the sound for free. Peter. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Willie-O Date: 29 May 06 - 11:03 PM I am completely onboard with EBarnacle, and doubly with Midchuck. For me, hearing the word "exposure" from a stranger over the phone elicits pretty much the same response as being asked to play a benefit for the National Association of Child Molesters (and bring my own PA) would. OK, slight exaggeration there. My experience is that anyone who offers "exposure" cannot provide it, because THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL THEY'RE DOING!!! And starting with the grand precept that you'll play for free as a convenience to them, you'll be lucky to get a gratis hot dog out of the deal. So those are the gigs I turn down, cause they're not real gigs. Not long ago, someone I know who is like Queen of the Mountain in her own head, had one of her proxies call me up and ask to borrow "a small microphone" for their event. I soon figured out that by "a microphone", they meant "a PA system". Honestly didn't know the difference! Yup, I'll play for a good cause in a heartbeat. To me the definition of a good cause does not include "because we want to have a bunch of music without paying for it", which seems to be the norm for many community events. Later on, though, you find out that sure enough, one or two "headliners" did get paid--in fact, got paid a lot, and there was just no money left for anyone else. This is not a system I want to support. And like Max, I don't care for 'vanity gigs' either. Just to be able to say you played there, and leave out the detail that there was no audience? I'd rather catch up on me sleep. W-O Funny eh, as I get more jaded, I get offered more & better gigs. Because if you can provide a professional performance--on time, more or less sober, and appropriate to the venue and audience--that will get noticed and will get you the references that will get you your next paying gig. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 May 06 - 02:33 AM to be honest - I think its not entirely a British phenomena, what I'm talking about. I think for example that Ry Cooder's bar room sound - doesn't sound much like anything in a real bar room. A bit too arty farty for the drunken maniacs most real musicians working real bar rooms have to appease. English folk music(as broadcast) is so far outside the sensibilities of most English people as to really require no further elaboration. I wasn't taking a smack at any particular musicians - we all work as best we can. That's why all these podcasts and Mudcat are so great. IT's like hearing England's working musicians breathe. too late for most of my generation, but future youngsters won't be tied down by the Lilliputian imagination of the music industry. I firmly believe we never got to hear the best songs of our generation. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 30 May 06 - 04:56 AM I have been reading this thread with dismay. It almost makes me want to close my folk club immediately. I have for the last 3 years there abouts put one huge amount (when I say huge I mean huge) of unpaid hours/telephone costs/travel cost/promotion costs etc into running this club. It is a concert style club and has 4 unpaid floorspots and one 45 minute floorspot which is paid but not at a full gig price. The purpose of the club, is to provide performers with a means to platform themselves and to offer an opportunity for people in a rural area to see the immense amount of talent that is around at a very reasonable price £3. Any small profits or losses go back into the club. It runs every other Friday (summertime as well). So quite honestly if thats the way you guys think you can all stuff it. Hopefully there won't be anywhere you can play soon. Les goes away to calm down. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Jeremiah McCaw Date: 30 May 06 - 05:27 AM " I have found that people who do not pay treat you poorly in other ways." Really? Every freebie I've ever played for so far (Knock wood) has treated me VERY well.... Hmm . . . a statement I would have made until recently. A sound person we've worked with quite often asked us if we'd take part in a fundraiser for a seniors' centre he'd gotten involved with. He's always worked his butt off for us, so the answer was an automatic 'yes'. The evening was a dinner (lasagna) and variety show being organized by an MC who (we figure) thought he was Ed Sullivan. There was my trio (old tyme / folk / roots), another trio (Newfoundland music) and assorted singers and dancers (who all performed to canned music) and a comedian. Performance-wise, it was a very different sort of evening and we had a lot of fun - all our stuff went over well with the audience. How were we treated by the organizer(s)? Well, not at all. None of the performers were given food, except maybe the sound guy (who lugged his own gear - twice - once for a rehearsal and for the gig itself) and was still expected to buy a ticket so his wife could attend! As for us, there was a tray of cookies (mostly digestive biscuits) and a pitcher of tap water backstage. There was supposed to be a table set up in the lobby for us to sell CDs. No such animal that I could see. As soon as the concert was done, I hurried out to the lobby to just stand around looking silly. (One lady came up to me and actually bought a CD.) I suspect we'll be asked again next year. I expect we'll be declining as graciously as we can manage. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Jeremiah McCaw Date: 30 May 06 - 05:44 AM Reply to "The Villan" . . . I think (I'm hoping) you're misinterpreting the drift of this thread. I don't believe it's about not being paid, but rather about being treated with disregard, disrespect and a total lack of consideration. Sadly, this happens all too often in the case of fundraisers whose organizers may be well-intentioned, but simply have no clue about how to treat people. In the case of folk clubs, such as you run, we all know there's little money being made and that they're run simply for the love of the music. I don't think anybody's disrespecting that, or the effort you put into it. I have been, and currently am, involved in just such clubs here in Canada. I seriously doubt that any of the performers you've had feel that they are in any way being taken for granted. Be of good cheer, laddie . . . |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: redsnapper Date: 30 May 06 - 05:44 AM When I have good reason to think I won't enjoy it...life's too short to waste time! The money is of secondary importance. RS |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 30 May 06 - 05:49 AM "When it stops being fun..." |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 30 May 06 - 06:17 AM Jeremiah I would like to think that I treat everybody that comes to the club with the utmost respect, even if I can't offer the world to them. I do feel guilty that I can't pay everybody, but the club wouldn't survive in such circumstances, and I feel that we would all lose out to some extent. Maybe I have been a bit rash there and misunderstood the purpose of the thread - so apologies. Les |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 May 06 - 06:47 AM Nothing at all to feel guilty for Les - the people who play there are nothing but grateful for the work you put into the folkscene. Even if Faldingworth is in the arse end of nowhere. Its quite nice to step out of reality occasionally and visit somewhere where the scarecrows outnumber the inhabitants. Leadbelly (or maybe it was Bukka white) had it about right when he said, as he counted his fingers after shaking hands on a deal, I figured it was better to give than receive. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 30 May 06 - 07:00 AM Thanks there WLD. I am glad to say that there are a group of performers including yourself who very kindly support my efforts, and without them, the club would not exist. Long may it reign. "Its quite nice to step out of reality occasionally and visit somewhere where the scarecrows outnumber the inhabitants" LOL, you are not far wrong there. Maybe I can go and nick some of the scarecrows and put them in the audience on Friday. Do you think you can get them to join in the choruses WLD :-) |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 May 06 - 07:38 AM it never really necessary with my songs - getting the buggers to laugh is th problem. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST Date: 30 May 06 - 07:41 AM When asked to perform for free for charity I ask - how much are you charging for tickets? I then say I will deduct the cost of one ticket from my fee. If that is not acceptable I don't do the gig. I don't see why I should be expected to donate more than ten times than each of the gig punters does. And if the charity is not one I support I don't do the gig anyway. Guest |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Clinton Hammond Date: 30 May 06 - 08:41 AM Your loss Guest.... I'm hard pressed to think of a 'charity' gig that I've done that didn't lead to at least 2-4 gigs that paid.... often way more than my average fee... Gigs that I never would have got if not for doing the freebie..... I have also, at such charity gigs met some great people, had some great food & drink, had some great fun, and left feeling wonderful for the whole experience..... Sorry your experience has been so bad.... |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 30 May 06 - 09:00 AM Les (The Villan), folk clubs like yours generally don't exist, as far as I know, on this side of the pond, except maybe in the larger cities at events such as the FWGW organizes. Therefore "gig" has a whole different context for this thread-starter. I'm sorry if the cultural differences led you to misunderstand my intent. I'd be glad to play in the type of environment you describe, if we had it here within a couple of hours' drive. In any event, my question was a general one for discussion, not a slam at organizers or an effort to elicit these. I think we all know that there are good ones and there are idiots, but that wasn't my point about the opening post, either. (We've had plenty of "gigs from hell" type discussion in the past.) I just wanted to know what criteria guide people, generally, in whether to accept or decline an opportunity. Just because Mudcat is so argumentative these days doesn't mean that we can't still discuss our lives in music in a reasonable fashion! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: redsnapper Date: 30 May 06 - 09:48 AM Same experience with charity gigs here as Clinton Hammond... mostly I've done them for Amnesty International. All have led to other gigs. Good reason to have your cards to hand. RS |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 30 May 06 - 04:31 PM Susan Thanks for that and sorry if I misunderstood. I like to set up charity evenings that affect performers from the folk world. All the door takings have gone to that specific charity and the performers have always done the evening for nowt. I would really like to do a big gig for Autism one day as my daughter is on the Autistic Spectrum. So any big named performers who might be interested in supporting me on that, please let me know. It would be a UK event of course. Cheers Les |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Clinton Hammond Date: 30 May 06 - 04:32 PM I'll happily play it Les, but I'm gonna need plane-fare, and a place to crash (Pun unintended) Heh |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 30 May 06 - 04:37 PM Les, I'll make sure to include your area if I ever cross the pond. I do know what it is like to work hard for a greater good and find that one is being attacked rather than assisted. It's not the thanks that are wanted-- just like-minded participation, right? And that only comes once in awhile, unfortunately, while complaints tend to be rather more frequent. I've had my turn misunderstanding, too, when no one has meant any harm..... so I'm really glad you spoke up about feeling slammed, so we (who are posting in this thread) could clear it up. I hope it didn't get in too deep before the reassurances kicked in-- hard to hit the "undo" button once the barb's set. Best of luck with an Autism benefit-- wish I was there to pitch in. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 30 May 06 - 04:53 PM Clinton I must say that it is really nice of you to offer. However IMHO to make as much money as possible for the Autistic Society, I think I would need UK performers. >>I'm gonna need plane-fare, and a place to crash << LOL, I am sure a few might like that to happen LOL :-) Seriously, thanks a lot Clinton. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Clinton Hammond Date: 30 May 06 - 04:56 PM Good luck Les |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 30 May 06 - 05:19 PM Many thanks Clinton. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Phil Cooper Date: 30 May 06 - 11:16 PM We will turn down a gig if it's obvious that the venue, or organizers have no clue as to what they're doing. I also agree with the sentiment that if the gig looks like it will be no fun, than we'll pass. I like an exchange of value to occur between us and the audience (it doesn't have to be monetary). |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 30 May 06 - 11:59 PM Did you have FUN - time number one NO! Did you have FUN - time number two NO! Much0more is working underneath the surface than you have revealed.
PLEASE - ACCEPT a Third Gig at the same place.
You have paid 2/3 your dues....If you don't know the problem yet....continue to return, like a Morris Dancer, again and again, over and over, being without end - end without being.
You and the festival appear MOST worthy of each other's contributions. Imagine if they should collapse and be no more....because they only required One-More-Fee. Could you continue with such a gilt on your back? Do you desire, i.e.,lust for, more of the local guild's geldt than they share. Do you have a hare? Would you share? We shall all prepare for the pie.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Big Al Whittle Date: 31 May 06 - 03:17 AM I am really intrigued with WYSIWYG's comment - like we haven't got that sort of folk club over here. I've heard something like it a few times from our American friends. I wonder why not. You'd like it - you really would. It's fun. Of course you sit through some real rubbish (in fact we all go the stage of being the real rubbish!) but you can always concentrate on having a drink til the next one comes along, and if that ones rubbish as well - you can go and get yourself another drink and a bag of crisps from the bar. And if the one after that's rubbish - well its obviously time to go an have a wee. then they raffle some small object of desire that you don't really want and you can have a wander round and chat to every other musician in the area who hasn't got a gig. And then its the second half of the evening. And most of the people are REALLY NICE. And even from singers and artists, you don't enjoy all that much - you often hear what other people are listening to, and you learn......about all sorts of things, how you are going to present your music, different ways of playing your instrument, etc. I mean what else are you going to do.........for most of us its too late and too much to hope for that we improve our minds. However most of us have improved our music and performing technique in folk clubs. and while I'm at it, three cheers for blokes like Les the Villan who spend their time. And there so many blokes like him who give us so much. i almost said three cheers fo all the Les's - but you know what I mean. be a Les, you know it makes sense! |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 31 May 06 - 03:32 AM LOL We have a few Les's on Mudcat Al. Les from Hull Les B Les the Villan Anymore? Al have you written the song for England in the World Cup yet. How about - along came lonely, lanky Crouch maybe set to the tune from the coasters. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Big Al Whittle Date: 31 May 06 - 03:54 AM see the Rummenigge thread for my reasons why not |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: BusyBee Paul Date: 31 May 06 - 09:27 AM I'm sure WLD will write you a footie song to "Jake the Peg" tune Les, seeing as it's the only one you know! |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 31 May 06 - 10:52 AM Cheeky bugger Deirdre :-) |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Paco Rabanne Date: 31 May 06 - 10:54 AM I never accept underwater gigs. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: EBarnacle Date: 31 May 06 - 11:59 AM About 30 years ago, I was asked to set up a festival for the opening of a new museum in the Hudson Valley. As all the performers were my friends [and, to this day, still are] I was able to get them for "free," having arranged food, gas and lodging. We had a wonderful day performance on Saturday. On Saturday night, we had one paid admission, so we returned that person's money and had a music party until the wee hours. Sunday, we again had a large audience. No one had told us that we were up against 3 [yes, 3] entrenched events on Saturday night. Planning pays, as does local knowledge. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 31 May 06 - 01:06 PM I am really intrigued with WYSIWYG's comment - like we haven't got that sort of folk club over here. I've heard something like it a few times from our American friends. I wonder why not. You'd like it - you really would. It's fun. Geography, geography, geography. Check with Leadfingers or Giok on terrain issues and how it maight impact one's music habits and opportunities. Let's say the BBC Radio Ballads does a whole hour on the building of a big, important road. This vaunted road goes from one inportant part of England to another really important part-- in relation to the country's population or industry; I confess I didn't study deep enough to know but just enjoyed the program. ... Which my husband and I listened to in our van, driving somewhere "nearby" in my part of the US. It's an hour away-- same length as the road being described, and same travel time as the Radio Ballad show playing in the van's CD player. In between-- hardly any people. I mean, SPARSE. Along your road-- a rich, abundant netwrok of villages, towns, and cities. That same length of travel, in another Ballad show, is described as being an area where people would routinely go off for a day's ramble. In our place, though, it's all vertical. Never seen a rambling soul there. Hitchhikers trying to cross out of the county after leaving our county jail, yes. But walking for fun--- uh, nope. Not that far. Maybe the same length of time walking in areas where it's conducive-- but not nearly the same amount of ground covered. Really, Leadfingers seemed to GET it while he was here. I wish he would write about it. I am sure I don't describe it right for you UKers. Anyway, it's a different world. Maybe it's reflected in the first colonists' reports back to the sponsoring companies or somewhere. Not all the US is as I describe, but a lot of it is and a lot of the rest is climate-problematic. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: open mike Date: 31 May 06 - 01:43 PM beware if the organizers are nazis in disguise i have heard of celtic music events lately being a cover for political groups that you might NOT want to be aligned with... check the credentials of the sponsors and presenters. some promoters have a hidden agenda. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: LilyFestre Date: 31 May 06 - 01:43 PM While the population in this part of the US is fairly sparse (I live in the same area as Susan), there are several nearby musicians who play, bluegrass and old-timey music. I live approximately 15 miles from WYSIWYG and there are 9 musicians that I can think of off the top of my head, who play at the local coffee house and local festivals. In fact, the ratio of musicians to non-musicans in this neck of the woods is rather high. Sometimes you just have to look. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: LilyFestre Date: 31 May 06 - 01:46 PM I should add that those 9 performing musicians (and just how many more are there who just like to sit and play without performing?)are within 5 miles of my home...where my nearest neighbors are sheep! Michelle |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 31 May 06 - 02:30 PM Why do you suppose they have not formed a club like clubs exist in the UK? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: LilyFestre Date: 31 May 06 - 03:53 PM I really can't say, all I could do is speculate. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Midchuck Date: 31 May 06 - 04:13 PM Why do you suppose they have not formed a club like clubs exist in the UK? Because the US is so multicultural that there are so many different "folk" musics and styles that there is no common body of music to hold a club together? Because the US doesn't have pubs, it has bars. And a pub is a good place for folkies to get together and do music, but a bar isn't? Two of many possible guesses, only. Peter |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: 14fret Date: 31 May 06 - 04:33 PM Without 'charity', concerts or clubs, we and they would be poorer in every sense.... but, Villian, how would you feel if your employer asked you to work for free for a day for their favourite charity? Don't come back and say, 'I'm only asking for an 30/40 minutes of their time'. There's rehearsals, writing, instruments/PA, transport, (with loaded premiums for musicians). |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: LilyFestre Date: 31 May 06 - 05:01 PM I was thinking along the lines of what Midchuck had to offer. We have bars here, not pubs (at least not locally). There are local coffee houses that do offer music on a weekly basis and at least one of them always allows for folks to step up to the mic to do their thing. They offer a jam session sometimes but it's not the sit around and play kind of thing that you will find in pubs in Europe (at least from the ones I visited). On our mountain top, we play on the porch, under the big maple, and invite folks over who we want to play with. It's always informal and many times involves just the two of us and that's fine too. We've also had picnics where folks sit around and play whatever and whenever they want, a good time for everyone involved and absolutely no pressure. For us, music is about relaxing, enjoyment and having fun. Neither of us are performers, nor do we wish to be...but we do like to play with like minded people. A club around here could be fun, but I don't think the local economy would support it....and some local jams have proven to be more stressful than anything else...so the front porch suits us just fine. :) Michelle |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 31 May 06 - 05:29 PM So what is the usual population/denisty in the UK where clubs flourish? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: LilyFestre Date: 31 May 06 - 06:48 PM The one pub I visited that often had folks sitting around and playing was in a town smaller than Wellsboro....population about 3,000....farming community so folks were scattered about. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 31 May 06 - 07:31 PM 14fret There are some people who take. There are some people who give and take There are some people who give I do not have a job, and I give everything to running the club. I take nothing out, but I get a lot of pleasure and so do many more from the club. I wish I had a job that helped the finances of the house but I don't. I would never dream of using the club as a personal means of earning. I will leave it up to you to decide where you fall in the above categories. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 31 May 06 - 11:44 PM Perhaps, your "karma" is poor.
As noted a few threads above
Sincerely,
Phenominal process...returns are 20, 50, 400 percent more than the gift. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST Date: 01 Jun 06 - 12:01 AM Hmmm, I don't think Gargoyle's comments apply to wive's of preachers, nor their daughters. In particular. they do no apply to wiccans, nor gypsies, nor travelers, nor devote's of the "black arts." However, wayward sandpipers lean towards the 400 % for return on investment, and will always find lodging in a house-full of good ale. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,ridge plucker Date: 01 Jun 06 - 12:10 AM Susan, Check the canyon blue grass newsletter for a once a month folk music jam that is up in Corning. Its not a "club" but a gathering of folky people so to speak. Also the bluegrass jam once a month is not all bluegrass lots of old time music. A plus for you would be the muscians are for the most part accomplished so you will not have to deal with the beginners that you mentioned in one of your earlies posts about jams. These people should be on your level so you could spend your time playing and not "hand holding" I think you refered it to as in the other post. In a two hour circle there is a LOT of Music in this area. You just need to look for it. The Williamsport area has a hugh music scene not to mention the Elmira / Corning area all within the two hour drive. I think you are selling our area short. Also Greg may be interested in the new blues club in Elmira on water street. Pete |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Jun 06 - 11:13 AM Thanks, Pete. I am well aware of local music opportunities. (I already distribute most of them to my mailing list.) I'm not looking for folks to play with at this time and am focusing on other music matters, myself. But there is a Mudcat permathread on song circles, etc., where you might post information as you have it. We were discussing-- most recently in this thread-- music clubs as in the UK, and how they relate to the US scene. I'm hoping to hear from the UK folk about how population patterns differ and what they think is the "critical mass" needed to support a club, so that I can better understand the music cultural differences for my UK friends and so that I can relate my perspective to theirs. The differences in music culture are widespread and have been under discussion at Mudcat for several years. Just as these differences crept into this thread, they also tends to come up in other threads. --------- Going back to the thread's original topic-- I had a phone call yesterday, a week after letting "the organizer" know that we had decided to decline the gig with our thanks for having been asked. That "organizer" had passed the whole event's planning (and music organizing) on to someone else, who was now wanting to let me know their regrets over last year's problems and their hopes that we might participate next year. I could only sympathize, as he found himself suddenly in charge of something far more complex that he had anticipated, so I offered a few words of experience that might help him line up another group. I was grateful to have had the breadth of responses and perspectives this thread generated, in the back of my mind. I calmly and cheerfully responded somewhat nebulously as to our interest, but with my sincere wishes that they have a great event. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,ridge plucker Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:09 PM Susan, Sounds like you guys have gigs coming out your ears if you are turning people away. Where are some of the places you are going to be playing? I know you guys played the Loral Festivial last year on the green any chance you are doing that again? I have not seen you guys play anywhere but at the church. I think there is something wrong with the sound system there because all I could hear was your playing and no one else. It would be nice to hear what you guys sound like as a whole band. I know you made quit an impression on my wife when she saw you guys play at the Wellsboro Womans Concert a few years ago. She talks about how you sounded to this very day. Pete |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:18 PM The church does not actually own a music sound system, Pete, so the sound at church is quite cobbled together and we also have no sound tech to adjust on the fly. We will be using our own (new) small sound system at the summer services, which will be outside on the rear lawn this summer starting in late June. We'll probably use it the rest of the summer, too, because using your own prevents a lot of the site hassles that go along with the territory of playing out at gigs. We have several summer opportunities in the offing, and we'll be sending news out about those to our mailing list to supplement any other local promotion our hosts do. I wouldn't like to comment more specifically until arrangements are complete. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,ridge plucker Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:24 PM So how does one get or find your mailing list. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:32 PM By steering through the typos in our freebie website: THE GOOD NEWS-GOODTIME BAND There's a lot of stuff in mid-update in there, and some outdated stuff. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: LilyFestre Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:07 PM Les wrote about a club where a few people showcase their talent: "It is a concert style club and has 4 unpaid floorspots and one 45 minute floorspot which is paid but not at a full gig price. The purpose of the club, is to provide performers with a means to platform themselves and to offer an opportunity for people in a rural area to see the immense amount of talent that is around at a very reasonable price £3. Any small profits or losses go back into the club. It runs every other Friday (summertime as well)." Susan, you wrote that you would like to play at such a venue and you are in luck, we have that right here in town, EVERY Friday night (ok...maybe a week or two here and there they are vacation), have you played there? Ten West is always happy to have folks come play and you don't have to play with anyone else, the spotlight would be all yours. You can use your own sound system if you really want one, but it's a nice small venue where you don't really need a mic. And Susan, I think RidgePluckergot the impression that you were looking for other folks to play with because you made mention of it in the slow jam thread...about wanting to play more, hold hands less and finding few people in the area to play with. He's right...all kinds of stuff to play at, listen to, join in, etc within a 2 hour radius. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Jun 06 - 08:48 PM I thought a tithe was 10%... damn inflation... |
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