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Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Jun 06 - 08:48 PM I thought a tithe was 10%... damn inflation... |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: LilyFestre Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:07 PM Les wrote about a club where a few people showcase their talent: "It is a concert style club and has 4 unpaid floorspots and one 45 minute floorspot which is paid but not at a full gig price. The purpose of the club, is to provide performers with a means to platform themselves and to offer an opportunity for people in a rural area to see the immense amount of talent that is around at a very reasonable price £3. Any small profits or losses go back into the club. It runs every other Friday (summertime as well)." Susan, you wrote that you would like to play at such a venue and you are in luck, we have that right here in town, EVERY Friday night (ok...maybe a week or two here and there they are vacation), have you played there? Ten West is always happy to have folks come play and you don't have to play with anyone else, the spotlight would be all yours. You can use your own sound system if you really want one, but it's a nice small venue where you don't really need a mic. And Susan, I think RidgePluckergot the impression that you were looking for other folks to play with because you made mention of it in the slow jam thread...about wanting to play more, hold hands less and finding few people in the area to play with. He's right...all kinds of stuff to play at, listen to, join in, etc within a 2 hour radius. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:32 PM By steering through the typos in our freebie website: THE GOOD NEWS-GOODTIME BAND There's a lot of stuff in mid-update in there, and some outdated stuff. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,ridge plucker Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:24 PM So how does one get or find your mailing list. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:18 PM The church does not actually own a music sound system, Pete, so the sound at church is quite cobbled together and we also have no sound tech to adjust on the fly. We will be using our own (new) small sound system at the summer services, which will be outside on the rear lawn this summer starting in late June. We'll probably use it the rest of the summer, too, because using your own prevents a lot of the site hassles that go along with the territory of playing out at gigs. We have several summer opportunities in the offing, and we'll be sending news out about those to our mailing list to supplement any other local promotion our hosts do. I wouldn't like to comment more specifically until arrangements are complete. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,ridge plucker Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:09 PM Susan, Sounds like you guys have gigs coming out your ears if you are turning people away. Where are some of the places you are going to be playing? I know you guys played the Loral Festivial last year on the green any chance you are doing that again? I have not seen you guys play anywhere but at the church. I think there is something wrong with the sound system there because all I could hear was your playing and no one else. It would be nice to hear what you guys sound like as a whole band. I know you made quit an impression on my wife when she saw you guys play at the Wellsboro Womans Concert a few years ago. She talks about how you sounded to this very day. Pete |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Jun 06 - 11:13 AM Thanks, Pete. I am well aware of local music opportunities. (I already distribute most of them to my mailing list.) I'm not looking for folks to play with at this time and am focusing on other music matters, myself. But there is a Mudcat permathread on song circles, etc., where you might post information as you have it. We were discussing-- most recently in this thread-- music clubs as in the UK, and how they relate to the US scene. I'm hoping to hear from the UK folk about how population patterns differ and what they think is the "critical mass" needed to support a club, so that I can better understand the music cultural differences for my UK friends and so that I can relate my perspective to theirs. The differences in music culture are widespread and have been under discussion at Mudcat for several years. Just as these differences crept into this thread, they also tends to come up in other threads. --------- Going back to the thread's original topic-- I had a phone call yesterday, a week after letting "the organizer" know that we had decided to decline the gig with our thanks for having been asked. That "organizer" had passed the whole event's planning (and music organizing) on to someone else, who was now wanting to let me know their regrets over last year's problems and their hopes that we might participate next year. I could only sympathize, as he found himself suddenly in charge of something far more complex that he had anticipated, so I offered a few words of experience that might help him line up another group. I was grateful to have had the breadth of responses and perspectives this thread generated, in the back of my mind. I calmly and cheerfully responded somewhat nebulously as to our interest, but with my sincere wishes that they have a great event. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,ridge plucker Date: 01 Jun 06 - 12:10 AM Susan, Check the canyon blue grass newsletter for a once a month folk music jam that is up in Corning. Its not a "club" but a gathering of folky people so to speak. Also the bluegrass jam once a month is not all bluegrass lots of old time music. A plus for you would be the muscians are for the most part accomplished so you will not have to deal with the beginners that you mentioned in one of your earlies posts about jams. These people should be on your level so you could spend your time playing and not "hand holding" I think you refered it to as in the other post. In a two hour circle there is a LOT of Music in this area. You just need to look for it. The Williamsport area has a hugh music scene not to mention the Elmira / Corning area all within the two hour drive. I think you are selling our area short. Also Greg may be interested in the new blues club in Elmira on water street. Pete |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST Date: 01 Jun 06 - 12:01 AM Hmmm, I don't think Gargoyle's comments apply to wive's of preachers, nor their daughters. In particular. they do no apply to wiccans, nor gypsies, nor travelers, nor devote's of the "black arts." However, wayward sandpipers lean towards the 400 % for return on investment, and will always find lodging in a house-full of good ale. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 31 May 06 - 11:44 PM Perhaps, your "karma" is poor.
As noted a few threads above
Sincerely,
Phenominal process...returns are 20, 50, 400 percent more than the gift. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 31 May 06 - 07:31 PM 14fret There are some people who take. There are some people who give and take There are some people who give I do not have a job, and I give everything to running the club. I take nothing out, but I get a lot of pleasure and so do many more from the club. I wish I had a job that helped the finances of the house but I don't. I would never dream of using the club as a personal means of earning. I will leave it up to you to decide where you fall in the above categories. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: LilyFestre Date: 31 May 06 - 06:48 PM The one pub I visited that often had folks sitting around and playing was in a town smaller than Wellsboro....population about 3,000....farming community so folks were scattered about. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 31 May 06 - 05:29 PM So what is the usual population/denisty in the UK where clubs flourish? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: LilyFestre Date: 31 May 06 - 05:01 PM I was thinking along the lines of what Midchuck had to offer. We have bars here, not pubs (at least not locally). There are local coffee houses that do offer music on a weekly basis and at least one of them always allows for folks to step up to the mic to do their thing. They offer a jam session sometimes but it's not the sit around and play kind of thing that you will find in pubs in Europe (at least from the ones I visited). On our mountain top, we play on the porch, under the big maple, and invite folks over who we want to play with. It's always informal and many times involves just the two of us and that's fine too. We've also had picnics where folks sit around and play whatever and whenever they want, a good time for everyone involved and absolutely no pressure. For us, music is about relaxing, enjoyment and having fun. Neither of us are performers, nor do we wish to be...but we do like to play with like minded people. A club around here could be fun, but I don't think the local economy would support it....and some local jams have proven to be more stressful than anything else...so the front porch suits us just fine. :) Michelle |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: 14fret Date: 31 May 06 - 04:33 PM Without 'charity', concerts or clubs, we and they would be poorer in every sense.... but, Villian, how would you feel if your employer asked you to work for free for a day for their favourite charity? Don't come back and say, 'I'm only asking for an 30/40 minutes of their time'. There's rehearsals, writing, instruments/PA, transport, (with loaded premiums for musicians). |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Midchuck Date: 31 May 06 - 04:13 PM Why do you suppose they have not formed a club like clubs exist in the UK? Because the US is so multicultural that there are so many different "folk" musics and styles that there is no common body of music to hold a club together? Because the US doesn't have pubs, it has bars. And a pub is a good place for folkies to get together and do music, but a bar isn't? Two of many possible guesses, only. Peter |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: LilyFestre Date: 31 May 06 - 03:53 PM I really can't say, all I could do is speculate. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 31 May 06 - 02:30 PM Why do you suppose they have not formed a club like clubs exist in the UK? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: LilyFestre Date: 31 May 06 - 01:46 PM I should add that those 9 performing musicians (and just how many more are there who just like to sit and play without performing?)are within 5 miles of my home...where my nearest neighbors are sheep! Michelle |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: LilyFestre Date: 31 May 06 - 01:43 PM While the population in this part of the US is fairly sparse (I live in the same area as Susan), there are several nearby musicians who play, bluegrass and old-timey music. I live approximately 15 miles from WYSIWYG and there are 9 musicians that I can think of off the top of my head, who play at the local coffee house and local festivals. In fact, the ratio of musicians to non-musicans in this neck of the woods is rather high. Sometimes you just have to look. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: open mike Date: 31 May 06 - 01:43 PM beware if the organizers are nazis in disguise i have heard of celtic music events lately being a cover for political groups that you might NOT want to be aligned with... check the credentials of the sponsors and presenters. some promoters have a hidden agenda. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 31 May 06 - 01:06 PM I am really intrigued with WYSIWYG's comment - like we haven't got that sort of folk club over here. I've heard something like it a few times from our American friends. I wonder why not. You'd like it - you really would. It's fun. Geography, geography, geography. Check with Leadfingers or Giok on terrain issues and how it maight impact one's music habits and opportunities. Let's say the BBC Radio Ballads does a whole hour on the building of a big, important road. This vaunted road goes from one inportant part of England to another really important part-- in relation to the country's population or industry; I confess I didn't study deep enough to know but just enjoyed the program. ... Which my husband and I listened to in our van, driving somewhere "nearby" in my part of the US. It's an hour away-- same length as the road being described, and same travel time as the Radio Ballad show playing in the van's CD player. In between-- hardly any people. I mean, SPARSE. Along your road-- a rich, abundant netwrok of villages, towns, and cities. That same length of travel, in another Ballad show, is described as being an area where people would routinely go off for a day's ramble. In our place, though, it's all vertical. Never seen a rambling soul there. Hitchhikers trying to cross out of the county after leaving our county jail, yes. But walking for fun--- uh, nope. Not that far. Maybe the same length of time walking in areas where it's conducive-- but not nearly the same amount of ground covered. Really, Leadfingers seemed to GET it while he was here. I wish he would write about it. I am sure I don't describe it right for you UKers. Anyway, it's a different world. Maybe it's reflected in the first colonists' reports back to the sponsoring companies or somewhere. Not all the US is as I describe, but a lot of it is and a lot of the rest is climate-problematic. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: EBarnacle Date: 31 May 06 - 11:59 AM About 30 years ago, I was asked to set up a festival for the opening of a new museum in the Hudson Valley. As all the performers were my friends [and, to this day, still are] I was able to get them for "free," having arranged food, gas and lodging. We had a wonderful day performance on Saturday. On Saturday night, we had one paid admission, so we returned that person's money and had a music party until the wee hours. Sunday, we again had a large audience. No one had told us that we were up against 3 [yes, 3] entrenched events on Saturday night. Planning pays, as does local knowledge. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Paco Rabanne Date: 31 May 06 - 10:54 AM I never accept underwater gigs. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 31 May 06 - 10:52 AM Cheeky bugger Deirdre :-) |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: BusyBee Paul Date: 31 May 06 - 09:27 AM I'm sure WLD will write you a footie song to "Jake the Peg" tune Les, seeing as it's the only one you know! |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Big Al Whittle Date: 31 May 06 - 03:54 AM see the Rummenigge thread for my reasons why not |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 31 May 06 - 03:32 AM LOL We have a few Les's on Mudcat Al. Les from Hull Les B Les the Villan Anymore? Al have you written the song for England in the World Cup yet. How about - along came lonely, lanky Crouch maybe set to the tune from the coasters. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Big Al Whittle Date: 31 May 06 - 03:17 AM I am really intrigued with WYSIWYG's comment - like we haven't got that sort of folk club over here. I've heard something like it a few times from our American friends. I wonder why not. You'd like it - you really would. It's fun. Of course you sit through some real rubbish (in fact we all go the stage of being the real rubbish!) but you can always concentrate on having a drink til the next one comes along, and if that ones rubbish as well - you can go and get yourself another drink and a bag of crisps from the bar. And if the one after that's rubbish - well its obviously time to go an have a wee. then they raffle some small object of desire that you don't really want and you can have a wander round and chat to every other musician in the area who hasn't got a gig. And then its the second half of the evening. And most of the people are REALLY NICE. And even from singers and artists, you don't enjoy all that much - you often hear what other people are listening to, and you learn......about all sorts of things, how you are going to present your music, different ways of playing your instrument, etc. I mean what else are you going to do.........for most of us its too late and too much to hope for that we improve our minds. However most of us have improved our music and performing technique in folk clubs. and while I'm at it, three cheers for blokes like Les the Villan who spend their time. And there so many blokes like him who give us so much. i almost said three cheers fo all the Les's - but you know what I mean. be a Les, you know it makes sense! |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 30 May 06 - 11:59 PM Did you have FUN - time number one NO! Did you have FUN - time number two NO! Much0more is working underneath the surface than you have revealed.
PLEASE - ACCEPT a Third Gig at the same place.
You have paid 2/3 your dues....If you don't know the problem yet....continue to return, like a Morris Dancer, again and again, over and over, being without end - end without being.
You and the festival appear MOST worthy of each other's contributions. Imagine if they should collapse and be no more....because they only required One-More-Fee. Could you continue with such a gilt on your back? Do you desire, i.e.,lust for, more of the local guild's geldt than they share. Do you have a hare? Would you share? We shall all prepare for the pie.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Phil Cooper Date: 30 May 06 - 11:16 PM We will turn down a gig if it's obvious that the venue, or organizers have no clue as to what they're doing. I also agree with the sentiment that if the gig looks like it will be no fun, than we'll pass. I like an exchange of value to occur between us and the audience (it doesn't have to be monetary). |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 30 May 06 - 05:19 PM Many thanks Clinton. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Clinton Hammond Date: 30 May 06 - 04:56 PM Good luck Les |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 30 May 06 - 04:53 PM Clinton I must say that it is really nice of you to offer. However IMHO to make as much money as possible for the Autistic Society, I think I would need UK performers. >>I'm gonna need plane-fare, and a place to crash << LOL, I am sure a few might like that to happen LOL :-) Seriously, thanks a lot Clinton. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 30 May 06 - 04:37 PM Les, I'll make sure to include your area if I ever cross the pond. I do know what it is like to work hard for a greater good and find that one is being attacked rather than assisted. It's not the thanks that are wanted-- just like-minded participation, right? And that only comes once in awhile, unfortunately, while complaints tend to be rather more frequent. I've had my turn misunderstanding, too, when no one has meant any harm..... so I'm really glad you spoke up about feeling slammed, so we (who are posting in this thread) could clear it up. I hope it didn't get in too deep before the reassurances kicked in-- hard to hit the "undo" button once the barb's set. Best of luck with an Autism benefit-- wish I was there to pitch in. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Clinton Hammond Date: 30 May 06 - 04:32 PM I'll happily play it Les, but I'm gonna need plane-fare, and a place to crash (Pun unintended) Heh |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 30 May 06 - 04:31 PM Susan Thanks for that and sorry if I misunderstood. I like to set up charity evenings that affect performers from the folk world. All the door takings have gone to that specific charity and the performers have always done the evening for nowt. I would really like to do a big gig for Autism one day as my daughter is on the Autistic Spectrum. So any big named performers who might be interested in supporting me on that, please let me know. It would be a UK event of course. Cheers Les |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: redsnapper Date: 30 May 06 - 09:48 AM Same experience with charity gigs here as Clinton Hammond... mostly I've done them for Amnesty International. All have led to other gigs. Good reason to have your cards to hand. RS |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: wysiwyg Date: 30 May 06 - 09:00 AM Les (The Villan), folk clubs like yours generally don't exist, as far as I know, on this side of the pond, except maybe in the larger cities at events such as the FWGW organizes. Therefore "gig" has a whole different context for this thread-starter. I'm sorry if the cultural differences led you to misunderstand my intent. I'd be glad to play in the type of environment you describe, if we had it here within a couple of hours' drive. In any event, my question was a general one for discussion, not a slam at organizers or an effort to elicit these. I think we all know that there are good ones and there are idiots, but that wasn't my point about the opening post, either. (We've had plenty of "gigs from hell" type discussion in the past.) I just wanted to know what criteria guide people, generally, in whether to accept or decline an opportunity. Just because Mudcat is so argumentative these days doesn't mean that we can't still discuss our lives in music in a reasonable fashion! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Clinton Hammond Date: 30 May 06 - 08:41 AM Your loss Guest.... I'm hard pressed to think of a 'charity' gig that I've done that didn't lead to at least 2-4 gigs that paid.... often way more than my average fee... Gigs that I never would have got if not for doing the freebie..... I have also, at such charity gigs met some great people, had some great food & drink, had some great fun, and left feeling wonderful for the whole experience..... Sorry your experience has been so bad.... |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: GUEST Date: 30 May 06 - 07:41 AM When asked to perform for free for charity I ask - how much are you charging for tickets? I then say I will deduct the cost of one ticket from my fee. If that is not acceptable I don't do the gig. I don't see why I should be expected to donate more than ten times than each of the gig punters does. And if the charity is not one I support I don't do the gig anyway. Guest |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 May 06 - 07:38 AM it never really necessary with my songs - getting the buggers to laugh is th problem. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 30 May 06 - 07:00 AM Thanks there WLD. I am glad to say that there are a group of performers including yourself who very kindly support my efforts, and without them, the club would not exist. Long may it reign. "Its quite nice to step out of reality occasionally and visit somewhere where the scarecrows outnumber the inhabitants" LOL, you are not far wrong there. Maybe I can go and nick some of the scarecrows and put them in the audience on Friday. Do you think you can get them to join in the choruses WLD :-) |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 May 06 - 06:47 AM Nothing at all to feel guilty for Les - the people who play there are nothing but grateful for the work you put into the folkscene. Even if Faldingworth is in the arse end of nowhere. Its quite nice to step out of reality occasionally and visit somewhere where the scarecrows outnumber the inhabitants. Leadbelly (or maybe it was Bukka white) had it about right when he said, as he counted his fingers after shaking hands on a deal, I figured it was better to give than receive. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 30 May 06 - 06:17 AM Jeremiah I would like to think that I treat everybody that comes to the club with the utmost respect, even if I can't offer the world to them. I do feel guilty that I can't pay everybody, but the club wouldn't survive in such circumstances, and I feel that we would all lose out to some extent. Maybe I have been a bit rash there and misunderstood the purpose of the thread - so apologies. Les |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 30 May 06 - 05:49 AM "When it stops being fun..." |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: redsnapper Date: 30 May 06 - 05:44 AM When I have good reason to think I won't enjoy it...life's too short to waste time! The money is of secondary importance. RS |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Jeremiah McCaw Date: 30 May 06 - 05:44 AM Reply to "The Villan" . . . I think (I'm hoping) you're misinterpreting the drift of this thread. I don't believe it's about not being paid, but rather about being treated with disregard, disrespect and a total lack of consideration. Sadly, this happens all too often in the case of fundraisers whose organizers may be well-intentioned, but simply have no clue about how to treat people. In the case of folk clubs, such as you run, we all know there's little money being made and that they're run simply for the love of the music. I don't think anybody's disrespecting that, or the effort you put into it. I have been, and currently am, involved in just such clubs here in Canada. I seriously doubt that any of the performers you've had feel that they are in any way being taken for granted. Be of good cheer, laddie . . . |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Jeremiah McCaw Date: 30 May 06 - 05:27 AM " I have found that people who do not pay treat you poorly in other ways." Really? Every freebie I've ever played for so far (Knock wood) has treated me VERY well.... Hmm . . . a statement I would have made until recently. A sound person we've worked with quite often asked us if we'd take part in a fundraiser for a seniors' centre he'd gotten involved with. He's always worked his butt off for us, so the answer was an automatic 'yes'. The evening was a dinner (lasagna) and variety show being organized by an MC who (we figure) thought he was Ed Sullivan. There was my trio (old tyme / folk / roots), another trio (Newfoundland music) and assorted singers and dancers (who all performed to canned music) and a comedian. Performance-wise, it was a very different sort of evening and we had a lot of fun - all our stuff went over well with the audience. How were we treated by the organizer(s)? Well, not at all. None of the performers were given food, except maybe the sound guy (who lugged his own gear - twice - once for a rehearsal and for the gig itself) and was still expected to buy a ticket so his wife could attend! As for us, there was a tray of cookies (mostly digestive biscuits) and a pitcher of tap water backstage. There was supposed to be a table set up in the lobby for us to sell CDs. No such animal that I could see. As soon as the concert was done, I hurried out to the lobby to just stand around looking silly. (One lady came up to me and actually bought a CD.) I suspect we'll be asked again next year. I expect we'll be declining as graciously as we can manage. |
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Subject: RE: Why and/or When to Turn Down a Gig From: Rasener Date: 30 May 06 - 04:56 AM I have been reading this thread with dismay. It almost makes me want to close my folk club immediately. I have for the last 3 years there abouts put one huge amount (when I say huge I mean huge) of unpaid hours/telephone costs/travel cost/promotion costs etc into running this club. It is a concert style club and has 4 unpaid floorspots and one 45 minute floorspot which is paid but not at a full gig price. The purpose of the club, is to provide performers with a means to platform themselves and to offer an opportunity for people in a rural area to see the immense amount of talent that is around at a very reasonable price £3. Any small profits or losses go back into the club. It runs every other Friday (summertime as well). So quite honestly if thats the way you guys think you can all stuff it. Hopefully there won't be anywhere you can play soon. Les goes away to calm down. |
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