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BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture

GUEST,Albert White 28 May 06 - 07:31 AM
John MacKenzie 28 May 06 - 07:42 AM
The Fooles Troupe 28 May 06 - 07:46 AM
GUEST 28 May 06 - 08:33 AM
George Papavgeris 28 May 06 - 08:41 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 28 May 06 - 11:40 AM
Bunnahabhain 28 May 06 - 11:40 AM
akenaton 28 May 06 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,GS 28 May 06 - 12:19 PM
Divis Sweeney 28 May 06 - 12:25 PM
Divis Sweeney 28 May 06 - 12:35 PM
John MacKenzie 28 May 06 - 12:54 PM
dianavan 28 May 06 - 03:43 PM
Grab 28 May 06 - 05:25 PM
John MacKenzie 28 May 06 - 05:46 PM
Divis Sweeney 28 May 06 - 06:00 PM
dianavan 28 May 06 - 07:06 PM
Divis Sweeney 28 May 06 - 07:20 PM
pdq 28 May 06 - 07:58 PM
akenaton 28 May 06 - 08:12 PM
Cobble 28 May 06 - 08:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 May 06 - 09:19 PM
dianavan 28 May 06 - 09:23 PM
John MacKenzie 29 May 06 - 07:39 AM
The Fooles Troupe 29 May 06 - 08:52 AM
The Fooles Troupe 29 May 06 - 09:13 AM
Georgiansilver 29 May 06 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,Rapaire 29 May 06 - 09:37 AM
The Fooles Troupe 29 May 06 - 09:42 AM
Strollin' Johnny 29 May 06 - 10:23 AM
The Fooles Troupe 29 May 06 - 10:30 AM
ard mhacha 29 May 06 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,Rapaire 29 May 06 - 10:41 AM
Grab 29 May 06 - 10:48 AM
pdq 29 May 06 - 10:53 AM
Strollin' Johnny 29 May 06 - 01:04 PM
Georgiansilver 29 May 06 - 02:18 PM
The Fooles Troupe 29 May 06 - 07:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 May 06 - 09:46 PM
Strollin' Johnny 30 May 06 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,jOhn 30 May 06 - 07:46 AM
DMcG 30 May 06 - 08:37 AM
Rapparee 30 May 06 - 08:41 AM
Fibula Mattock 30 May 06 - 05:06 PM
Divis Sweeney 30 May 06 - 07:40 PM
Georgiansilver 31 May 06 - 02:53 AM
The Fooles Troupe 31 May 06 - 07:44 AM
Rapparee 31 May 06 - 11:00 AM
GUEST 03 Jun 06 - 12:52 AM
Divis Sweeney 03 Jun 06 - 02:58 AM

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Subject: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: GUEST,Albert White
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:31 AM

There is not a day goes by that there isn't a sad story on the news about someone being stabbed in Britain. A young coloured boy was stabbed to death a few days ago outside a school.

What started this ? If you are caught carrying a gun you will receive five years in jail. If you are caught carrying a knife you receive a warning. How do the differ ?

A lady in our village had a knife put to her throat last February coming out of a post office and told to hand over the pension she just collected.

The youth who did it was caught on camera. It came out in court he had threatened an OAP, which I am by the way, with a knife a year earlier.

He was sent to a centre for six months. Taught how to ski, canoe and feed farm animals. He was released after 14 weeks. Surely this isn't punishment.

How can we get the judges to protect us and give these people longer sentences ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:42 AM

You start off by disciplining children properly at school and in the home. You ban all the glorification of violence that goes on in the cinema, and on the play station screen. You teach children their responsibilties , and not just their rights. Parents of children under the age of criminal responsibility should be answerable in a court of law for the misdemeanours of their kids.
If a child uses physical force, then he should be physically punished. There should be much more retributive justice where criminals of any age should be forced to compensate the victims of their crimes.
If a criminal is sentenced to 6 years in jail, he should spend 6 years in jail, not 2 years and then out on licence to commit more crimes. The probation service obviously doesn't work, due to undermanning and overwork, so the supervision of offenders out on licence is sketchy at best.
I could go on, but I've probably offended enough people already!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:46 AM

Oh no, don't stop there!

What about the nutters wandering around being deemed 'not responsible' for their crimes? And why the hell have I got to live next to one?

Back to Bedlam I say!

Well, just for them - I mean, I wouldn't want to be sent there, you know...


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:33 AM

When I was at school in the fifties and sixties most children carried knives - they sed them to sharpen their pencils with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:41 AM

Britain has always had a culture of violence, since I first visited. The hooligans, the skinheads in the 70s, the oranges with razorblades thrown at football matches.... And it goes a lot further back. This is nothing new; and I think it's too late to reverse the trend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 28 May 06 - 11:40 AM

Lets ban knives, sharp sticks and stones too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 28 May 06 - 11:40 AM

I routinely have a knife of some kind on me. There's normally a leatherman type tool somewhere in a bag or pocket, A Skiean Dubh that goes with the kilt, and a pocket knife when out on the farm, that lives in the coat, along with gloves, bailer twine, random assorted pipe fittings and all the other things too useful to put down, but as far as violence goes, I've only ever been accused of murdering some good songs....


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:03 PM

Foolestroupe has accidentally said something sensible.
Because of successive govt policy, people with severe mental illness are allowed to live almost unsupervised "in the community".
To make matters worse, young carers and social workers are sent to visit these unfortunate people, often alone.

Just a couple of weeks ago a young girl of 22 was stabbed to death while visiting a man who suffered severe mental problems.

What is needed is a proper psychiatric service with secure accomodation and proper supervised psychiatric care.

This of course would cost some of the billions which are at present being used to make consultants, doctors and nurses filthy rich.
And as a side effect cut waiting times and make the govt more popular.

We should demand that our NHS is run as was intended .
For the benefit of the patients ..not the administrators....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: GUEST,GS
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:19 PM

Unfortunately the lack of discipline in the home and schools...MUCH of which is due to new laws being introduced with regard to childrens rights....there is a fear-factor developing in our society and some people, not just kids, will arm themselves for their own protection.
Robberies, muggings, assaults are all too prevalent, even in schools. Eventually we will develop a gun culture (it has perhaps already started) and to mind mind that will just be another step in the gradual watering down of the countrys' laws and the 'dog eat dog' life draws ever closer. Teach the parents and teach the kids! What is the point of fining a parent if a child misses school or misbehaves? Make children responsible for their own actions when they are of an age to understand right and wrong. When they go to court for mugging an old lady...don't give them a lenient sentence because they come from a poor family and they lost their mother when they were only eleven....Hit them hard with discipline...BOOT CAMP or similar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:25 PM

I worked in a psychiatric Hospital for 27 years and some years back the mental health act got a shake up. Along came the Mental Health Commission. A group of retired doctors, social workers and bank managers. Why would spring a visit on us at any time. They would speak to the patients in private and then send us out the changes they wanted to see within the service.

I spent more time on Restrainment and litigation courses because many patients were taking cases against the service.A few times we had to take weapons of patients on admission you were told by the patients about violation of human rights.

There is not the abuse of the mentally ill there was 50 years ago. The big thing these days is care in the community, another name for the government
in -patient care cut backs.

The current laws have went well over the top and the results are now sadly almost daily news.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:35 PM

Sorry, also meant to say I agree discipline has to start in the home. One word from my father put the fear of God in you.He also took the time to explain right from wrong. I remember if something came on the news, I got the lecture about how wrong that act was. I have one son aged 21 and can say I never had a moments bother from him. I explained things to him from a young age and it paid off. Where I live the mum's and dad's never say a word to the kids about anything they do. Too busy probably lying up watching Eastenders or in the pub. The youth today are also very switched on about the law and how they can play it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 May 06 - 12:54 PM

"The youth today are also very switched on about the law and how they can play it."

Aye Divis you never said a truer word, what you get from the tykes round here is, "You can't touch me I'm only 14" [or whatever age]
Yes they know and take advantage of the law as it stands. There's also the ploy of accusing an unpopular teacher of sexual misdemeanours. The teacher gets immediately suspended pending an investigation his/her name is publicly known, and the accusing child remains anonymous. When it is proved to be a false accusation the teacher returns to work, usually totally demoralised and shorn of their authority. The child who made the false accusation is neither identified nor punished!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:43 PM

"We should demand that our NHS is run as was intended .
For the benefit of the patients ..not the administrators"....Ake

It would also benefit the public!

Its so sad to see those with mental health problems victimized by criminals. Here in B.C. we have what is called a 'dual diagnosis'. That means that they have mental health problems and/or a drug or alcohol problem. Women with mental health issues are also sexually abused and often give birth to children that they keep and are unable to care for. These children eventually end up with social services or in the mental health system.

You're right. Closing down the old institutions was probably a good idea but turning the mentally disabled out onto the streets was a big mistake.

Government has a responsibility for caring for the mentally disabled and for the safety of the public.

Group homes are probably the best idea but, of course, its not considered 'cost effective'. Its time governments started looking at the long term costs of short term solutions.

I'm not sure what this has to do with knives, however. Knives have many purposes but are seldom used as weapons. Perhaps the best reason that they have become popular as a weapon of choice is because they are cheap and readily available.

Doesn't matter if its a gun or a knife or a bomb; its still a culture of violence and it seems to be sweeping our nations. It makes me wonder: If our children know that our governments torture and kill, we may be sending a message that it is condoned by society. Maybe we need to look at the crime rate with weapons involved and compare the years before and after the so-called 'war on terrorism'.

...and I've said it before - take a look at the popular computer games that the kids are playing today. Combine that with t.v. and you have a generation of kids who spend most of their out of school time in front of a screen, watching sex and violence. Blaming it on the schools is not going to solve the problem. An absolute lack of parental responsibility and a society that is largely disinterested in the future deserves closer scrutiny.

You can't blame schools for something that is happening after school hours. In fact, for many children, the time they spend at school is the only time they are engaged in meaningful conversation and activities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Grab
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:25 PM

Doesn't matter if its a gun or a knife or a bomb; its still a culture of violence and it seems to be sweeping our nations.

Compare and contrast to - oh, I don't know, let's pick a few examples from the last 50 years in Britain - teddy boys, mods and rockers, skinheads, the various organised crime gangs of which the Krays were just the most visible, or the hard-men from any industrial/slum area before 1960. And the difference is? As far as I can see, the difference is that you're *safer* today.

To me, it looks like there's all these people, all of them over 50 (plenty of whom were mods or rockers themselves, or at least whose friends were, and who were the generation that *pioneered* recreational drug-taking), whining "oh isn't it dreadful...?" I'm sorry, but your Alzheimers is acting up. If you think it was so bloody good back then, back when a man could beat/rape his wife and kids with impunity, and anyone with mental illness was locked up and could be beaten/raped/killed by the guards with impunity, and knifings didn't go reported in the press because it was just another barney in the rough end of town, then I'm afraid you're no longer in Britain with the rest of us - you've emigrated to Cloud Cuckoo Land.

As regards punishment, it really depends on whether you want to make guaranteed career criminals out of them, or give them a chance to get back around. Borstal was just fine for creating career criminals. Yeah, let's go back to that. Screw rehabilitation, getting these kids some education that their parents (*your* generation, mark you!) never cared about, getting them work experience, giving them some kind of self-respect and setting them out in society to live normal lives. Hell no, we wouldn't want any of that, would we?

There's not a day goes by that there isn't some kind of story like that, true. And that's because the papers have worked out that this kind of scare story sells them papers. People like Mr Albert White and his mates buy shedloads of the damn things if it gives them another excuse to say "oh, isn't it dreadful today".

If you think there was *ever* some kind of Golden Age, I'd love to know when it was. But based on the permitted treatment of women and children by husbands/parents, and the attitude and methods of the British police, it can't have been any time before 1990.

Everyone is now going to say "oh, I felt safe when I was a kid". I'll bet that most kids today would say the same too. Or they would say the same if their grandparents weren't busy telling them that they're going to get knifed if they step outside.

Now there's a self-fulfilling prophesy - the media and (grand)parents tell the kids they're in danger, and guess what? the kids start carrying weapons to defend themselves. Me, I'd say the kids were *smart* to have figured that out. But all the media and (grand)parents who created this fiction are the dumb ones, and if the kids just believe what they're told then ultimately it's the media and the (grand)parents creating the image who are the ones responsible.

"We didn't start the fire..."

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:46 PM

Sorry Grab but you exaggerate in order to try to prove your case. Yes there has always been violence, and there always will be, but you seem to be excusing today's violence on the grounds that we and our forebears started it.
Violence today is far more widespread than it has ever been, as you yourself pointed out it was more localised in the 50s and 60s.
You sound as though you are quite happy for it to continue just as long as you can blame someone else. While making sweeping statements about the treatment of children and wives pre 1990, and you condemn the whole of the police force while you do so.
What we need to do is condemn violence, and anti social behaviour and look for ways of reducing them, not look for excuses for them!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 May 06 - 06:00 PM

A lot of this is about knowing where your children are. Okay you can't watch them all the time, but you can see the company they attract. I always allowed my son to bring his friends home in the evenings and they and used the front room.

Teach early right from wrong and it will stay. Yes my father was firm, but he was reasonable. If you gain their respect they will listen to you. I see so many young people laughing at the law these days. It has the knock on effect that police can't be bothered arresting them, as the paper work and social workers need to be called and an adult brought to the station.

Then the police face a judge who has listened to submitted reports and lets them off.

I watched three kids about twelve or fourteen kicking hell out of a phonebox a couple of years ago and a police car pulled up beside them. I was walking past at the time. The police got out and one youth shouted did you see that, he hit me. Which was a lie. It became a shouting match. I walked on and later the police car passed me and those hoods were not in the car.

Now if I had stopped and they knew me, be assured a bottle would of made it's way through my window shortly after it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:06 PM

Divis - You're right about knowing where your kids are.

My dad (in the early 60's) was concerned about keeping track of his kids. He worked in a mill and had only a very small savings but he took that money and built another room on the house. It had a fireplace, a t.v and a pool table.

Needless to say, he didn't have to worry about where we were or who we were with. We were all under his roof where he could keep an eye on us. We didn't have many rules but when he had to speak to us - we listened.

BTW - We were also given rifles at an early age (for target practice) and we also carried knives (for utility) but we never used either as a weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:20 PM

dianavan, My dad was the same ! He owned a tailoring business and he allowed us lot up to the rooms above the shop, we lived next door. I grew up in the late sixties, early seventies. I suppose it was a concerning time for parents in the North of Ireland. We had a tv and snooker table in it and record player. Mum baked a lot, and I had hungry friends ! I will pass on the rifles bit if you don't mind !


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: pdq
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:58 PM

I recall from the 1960s that English police were not armed. They were proud of that.

Now they have guns and often use them. Just like here in the US.

This does not mesh well with the opinion that nothing has changed. Or that you folks are now safer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:12 PM

Graham leaves out of the equation the massive spread of drug misuse.

I never imagined that the small towns in the West of Scotland would ever have such a level of herion addiction among the young people.

And with that addiction comes violence and knife crime.
In a small village near where I live, a young man of 20 was decapitated by a knife weilding heroin addict, who also suffered from schitzophrenia and depression.
It transpired that this man was given his medication weekly, and often consumed the weeks supply in one or two days.
All this was completely unsupervised by the medical services.

The man received a twelve year sentence...the doctors got off Scot free.
I'm afraid this wonderful society of ours has a hidden secret, many of our children have no idealism, no hope, and sadly no future...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Cobble
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:22 PM

I was born in the first half of the last century, it was a safe place to live. Cut the I was a visitor shit out, you dont have a clue. Then we got all the do gooder's then in the latter years we got a labour government, who would appease anyone for votes, what ye sow ye shall reap. Now the truth about this bunch of sh*t is coming out, a bit like Bush over there arse-holes is the word Im looking for. Lack of disipline lack of keeping out the scum that is now roaming our streets because they let them go instead of DEPORTING THEM. The deterisation in this country through that gang of mind less self gloryfying LABOUR scum is beyond belief.

       Cobble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 06 - 09:19 PM

"Violence today is far more widespread than it has ever been, as you yourself pointed out it was more localised in the 50s and 60s."

There's a lot ofv evidence that violence gets much more attention paid to it by the media, and in a very dramatic and frightening way. Stuff that would have been tucked away as paragraph in an inside page gets front page status, more especially when a series of unconnected episodes can be knitted into a narrative about a threat building up. And there's a copy cat element, both among potential criminals and journalists

But I think there is a lot less evidence about an overall increase in violence. I don't rule it out, and I have my own list of changes in society that could have contributed to it. But we should be cautious about assembling a few tragic episodes and building too much upon them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 09:23 PM

Are you saying that the only scum is that which can be deported?

I don't think so. I think there are just as many White kids out there shooting up.

Education might help but blaming it on a certain set of politicians isn't going to solve the problem. You can't blame labour for the likes of George Bush.

Just who do you think are parenting the children today?

Not many parents, I can tell you that. Now we have caregivers. Caregivers are not or should not be the only source of values that are imparted to our young. Yes, you reap what you sow. If you don't spend time with your children in the formative years, you shouldn't expect too much in return.

BTW - What is deterisation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 May 06 - 07:39 AM

Deterioration I read that as D.
G..


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:52 AM

"Foolestroupe has accidentally said something sensible."

Gee thanks, I'm trying hard to feel accidentally insulted... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:13 AM

"Now they have guns and often use them."

So do Aussie Police. It is VERY intimidating, when some wanker with a mobile phone has dialed 000 just because an elderly guy has taken a shortcut thru a park and walked past the kiddies play area, to be stopped by 2 hotheads in a police car which has just done a screaming u-turn in front of you, to be interviewed by 2 guys who are obviously convinced that I am some filthy evil doer, but will not make any accusations, but insist on knowing who I am, without any just cause. The fact that one of them unclipped his holster, and stood in a 'guard position' with his hand fondling his holster was extremely intimidating.

Also when trying to deal with my psychotic neighbour, who apart from damaging plants she did not approve me of growing, was also stealing soil from under the fence, refused to do anything about it, claiming that 'soil had no value' - so you don't have to pay for soil from garden supply places, eh? The mongrel bastard lied!

My wider extended family has over the decades, many members in the Police Force - just hard working grunt level guys.

Now I have an intense dislike of the Police Force, but they are all we have to protect us...


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:26 AM

pdq...I was in the English Police Force in the 1960's and was armed a few times. Most of the English Police are still not armed as a matter of course but arms have always been available...Their use is far more prevalent than it was then and of course the media makes the best of anything that looks like good press. Guns are good press and their use gets suitably advertised...enough perhaps to make a certain element want one!. Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:37 AM

"We are the Impartial Police Force,
The Guardians of Sydney are we...."

The culture of mindless violence...in the UK, the US, Canada, Australia, Germany.... Lament it how you will.

If we continue to teach, via movies and television and the actions of our leaders that violence is an appropriate solution to problems we will perpetuate it.

Violence will always be with us. Anything can be used as a weapon if someone wants to do so (PM me and I'll send a list). And sometimes (though rarely) violence is the only appropriate answer, such as self-defense. We have failed to teach that by our example.

We'll never stop the rot until we get serious about doing so. And we're not serious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:42 AM

The really SAD thing is that some Aussie cops LOVE to watch those stupid US Cop SHows, especially the ones that are just reworks of the old White/Black Hat Westerns!


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 29 May 06 - 10:23 AM

pdq - get your facts right, the police in mainland UK are not, repeat NOT, routinely armed with guns. Each force has a specialised and highly-trained ARU (Armed Response Unit) which reacts to incidents involving activity by armed criminals. It's inevitable that these officers will, on occasion, have to use their firearms, but every shot fired is the subject of investigation by an independent force.

The standard bobby on the beat has no firearm, merely an expanding baton and a cannister of CS Spray, his only armament.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 May 06 - 10:30 AM

Another interesting thing about Aussie Police Officers, is that about 1 in 5 are not allowed to carry a gun as part of domestic Violence Orders taken out on them by their separated ex-wives...

And now Aussie cops have CS too... and have been filmed hosing defencless people by TV crews...


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 May 06 - 10:38 AM

Akenaton, sorry for the drift, try your PM for info on a music DVD,


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 29 May 06 - 10:41 AM

CS is a tear gas, developed in (I believe) the late 1950s to replace the somewhat less potent CN. Having been teargassed I can assure you that it's unpleasant but that I'd much rather be gassed than shot or beaten or stabbed.

Sprays have their drawbacks -- spray into the wind and it comes back into your own face. Face into the wind and let it blow the gas clear if you are teargassed; glasses and a bandana around the mouth will also provide some protection.

Now, if you want to use some REAL nasty gases, try vomiting gas...that even penetrates some type of gas masks. Or a mix of CS and vomiting gas....


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Grab
Date: 29 May 06 - 10:48 AM

I'm not excusing any violence, but I'm saying that I don't think it's particularly different today. The only difference is that you get to hear about it more today, bcos the less scrupulous papers know it sells. You think that, back in the 50s or whenever, a knife-fight in Govan, London, Manchester, Newcastle or any other significant industrial city would have got the attention of the national press? Somehow I don't think so. And I don't think this makes it particularly "localised", except in the sense that the criminals didn't move around much bcos they didn't have cars.

Policing-wise, I don't think the kind of "respect" that the police force had in the Thatcher strike-breaking era, or in Divis' personal experience in NI, is the kind we want. No more repeats of baton charges on unarmed protesters, or innocent men beaten up in cells until they confess to things they never did. I don't say that they all did that, but there was never any sanction against those who did. I don't doubt that they thought they were defending society, but plenty of mobsters (like the Krays) took protection money and said they were defending their own too. Having the police as just another gang using the same methods is not what I'd call a good thing.

As for treatment of women and children, it's a well-documented fact (I'll do the research and find a link, if anyone wants) that the most frequent source of assault and rape today if you're female or a child is a family member or family friend. This in spite of our supposed "knife culture" and the very real problem of drugs. And it's only *very* recently that rape and abuse victims had anything like a chance of getting the abuser put away - look back only 20-30 years, and the women and children didn't have a hope of doing anything about it, they just had to sit there and take it.

Yes, I have left out drugs. That certainly *is* worse - no question about it. But I don't think the results of drugs are the cause of the supposed "knife culture". Most drug-related crime is against property, which makes sense since most people don't carry much cash any more. And again, the "lock'em up and throw away the key" approach does nothing to help that - the most important thing is to get addicts off the drugs and give them a chance of making a straight life.

I'm sure there's plenty of parents who don't look after their kids properly. Again though, I'm not necessarily sure that this is worse than it used to be (although I've got nothing to go on here). Let's assume it is, though. In that case, how is locking up the kids for the sins of their parents a good thing?

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: pdq
Date: 29 May 06 - 10:53 AM

Strollin' Johnny,

Your statement "The standard bobby on the beat has no firearm" suggests that little has changed in the last 40 years. That is good news. Most Americans, especially those of us in rural areas, have never been to Gt. Britain and get all of our information about it from news and entertainment media.

A recent survey stated that 60% of English were so unhappy with the crime, noise and violence in their native land that they wanted to move to another country. Any country. I hope that is not true because there is no obvious place for them to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 29 May 06 - 01:04 PM

Just goes to show what a pile of shite you guys are fed by your outrageously politicised and highly-spun media. They wouldn't know the truth if it smacked 'em in the mouth.

I think people here are more pissed off with our cold wet weather than anything else, and that's the main reason anyone might want to leave. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 May 06 - 02:18 PM

Gettin' mugged on a rainy day is far worse than on a sunny one I reckon! Lol


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 May 06 - 07:35 PM

QUOTE
the "lock'em up and throw away the key" approach does nothing to help (drug users)
UNQUOTE

except that in prison, they can get hold of it easier - they know who and where to go to, they STILL just need the money...


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:46 PM

I've only seen police with guns (in England) a couple of times in my life - in Stansted Airport at a time when there was a flap on about terrorism (IRA that would have been); and one time when I was passing a government building in Whitehall.

As has been said, there are guns available in some circumstances, but that has always been the case since back in the 19th century. The difference is that these days when they are issued they are only in the hands of poice officers who have actually been trained in how to use them and how not to use them, which wasn't always the case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:41 AM

Indeed McG, and they are officers who have been carefully selected. One guy I know, who prior to his civilian police service had been in the military police (where they are routinely armed), was rejected from the ARU training course because, at a social evening, he laughed at a joke about Stevie Wonder. Apparently it caused the trainers to believe that he would shoot a black man more readily than he would shoot a white person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: GUEST,jOhn
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:46 AM

"Taught to ski, canoe and feed farm animuls"

They run courses in feeding animals???

give food to animal, animal eats food, simple!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:37 AM

The only difference is that you get to hear about it more today, bcos the less scrupulous papers know it sells.

If only it was the 'less scrupulous papers'. This was in the "The Observer" last weekend

Robberies recorded in 1997: 63,072
Robberies in 2004-05, after a peak in 2002: 88,710
Convictions and police cautions for robbery 1997: 10.2%
Convictions and cautions for robbery 2004-05: 8.9%

The message is clearly crime rate up, conviction rate down. But a little maths gives two figures they chose not to report

Convictions and police cautions for robbery 1997: 6433
Convictions and cautions for robbery 2004-05: 7853

Whoa! a 22% percent increase in the number of convictions! That must be highlighted in the article .... mustn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 May 06 - 08:41 AM

jOhn, if the food isn't served correctly the animal will turn up its nose. You have to put out the correct place setting in the correct order, a linen napkin, a finger bowl, and stuff like that. And goodness knows what will happen if you put wine into the wrong shaped glasses!

There was a shooting in downtown here some weeks ago. The dustup started in a bar and the bartender called the cops. As the cops were rounding the corner a guy in a car shot another in the stomach; the cops took out after the shooter, who sped away and eventually wrecked his car against a concrete barrier. The wounded man (who had done nothing wrong except to ignore the loud, obnoxious, drunken shooter) is fine. The shooter and two others are in jail and likely to stay there. ONE shot was fired, and that was the one by the shooter.

It was the first life-threatening incident in downtown in five (5) years, and that includes knife and other non-firearm assaults.

In two other recent incidents people had weapons (one fake pistol, one "survival" knife) and were looking to commit "suicide by cop" -- in both cases the police knocked them down with "beanbag" rounds and took them first to hospital and then, after they had received medical and psychiatric care, to jail (where they were placed in special cells where they could be watched). In both cases the people are not in jail, but receiving the care they need. And the police are VERY glad because they did NOT have to use deadly force. (Our police have been extensively trained in the use of non-lethal force.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 30 May 06 - 05:06 PM

"The simple truth is that most violent, avoidable or preventable deaths have nothing at all to do with the 630,000 people who are today in contact with mental health services."
Source: http://www.rethink.org/how_we_can_help/news_and_media/briefing_notes/briefing_3.html
(Rethink is the largest severe mental illness charity in the UK.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 May 06 - 07:40 PM

See on the tv news tonight that over the Bank Holiday weekend there were 51 stabbings, two dead. The mum and dad of the kid who was stabbed, he was just 19, were interviewed, it was so hard to watch. Simple answer is to give anyone who stabs another, life in jail. That would send out a message. A 25 year old had his nose bitten off about a mile from me on Saturday night. The one who did it was charged yesterday. Doctors could not sew it back on. Now if a dog did that it would be put down. Animals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 May 06 - 02:53 AM

McGofH. In the sixties as a Police Officer, I was armed a handful of times and believe me we had the training necessary in what to do and what not to do. Our jobs depended upon in in a nutshell so we dare not get it wrong. Your statement "which wasn't always the case"...is that based on conjecture or fact. When were officers who were armed not trained. At the time I was, the training was rigorous and the 'Dos and don'ts were clear and concise. I actually wonder if the small arms training has improved at all judging by recent events. Perhaps it is just more media coverage that gives it the hype it has. Maybe as with anything else in the world...we have to learn to live with our own mistakes and those of others.
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 May 06 - 07:44 AM

Today, under 100 km up the road in a 'country' area, there was an incident where the pregnant mother got away and raised the alarm. Her father apparently killed a young guy (they didn't say if it was the father) the turned the gun on himself. That chewed up 6 or so hours before they sent in the camera robot to confirm that both were dead. Just as well we have that gadget these days, some poor guy would have had to go in there to check out the situation, otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 May 06 - 11:00 AM

The Small Arms Survey, an organization advocating the control of small arms (see external links) claims in their 2003 report that at least 1,134 companies in 98 countries worldwide are involved in some aspect of the production of small arms and/or ammunition. The largest exporters of small arms by volume are the European Union and the United States.

In addition, massive exports of small arms by the US, the former Soviet Union (AK-47), China (AK-47), Germany (H&K G3), Belgium (FN-FAL), and Brazil (FN-FAL) during the Cold War took place to support ideological movements. These small arms have survived many conflicts and many are now in the hands of arms dealers who move them between conflict areas as needed.


That from the Wikipedia, a source I don't completely trust. However, this extract seems true from what I know from other sources.

Bear in mind that this lists more-or-less modern assault rifles. Millions of bolt action rifles (Enfield, Mosin-Nagant, Springfield, Mauser, etc.) and pistols (Colt, Fabrique Nationale, Steyr, Luger, Markov, etc.) were also exported to "friendly forces" or dumped on the international arms market, snatched up by dealers, and sold.

In brief, if you want a gun badly enough you can get a gun. In the UK, in France, in Russia, in China, in Australia....


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 12:52 AM

So what's an OAP, by the way? For those of us in the states.

The answer is to reintroduce guns. You have no idea what a sense of peace it gives me to know my neighbors all have guns. Hunting rifles, shotguns and pistols for self protection, and so on. Seriously. The cops will never get here if someone threatens my life. They want us to THINK they'll protect us, but we know better. They can't be everywhere and protect us from all "evildoers," so we have to bear some of that responsibility ourselves, don't we? If that old lady had had a gun to stick in the guy's navel, there wouldn't have been a problem, would there? Oh, but then you have to worry about pensioners running amok with pistols.

Seriously, the criminals are always going to have weapons. The answer is an armed populace. I can't imagine living in a society where the leaders have dictated you can't protect yourself with a bit of gunpowder and lead. That's insane. The people who make the laws are surrounded by armed guards.

I only read the first post in this thread. Maybe others have pointed out the common sense in gun ownership.


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Subject: RE: BS: Suddenly Britain has a knife culture
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 02:58 AM

Sorry, old age pensioner.


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