Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?

Subject: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 12:35 PM

I'm hoping that Joe Offer will authorize this to be converted into a permathread, so responses may get edited a bit as time goes on.

I've seen the differences between US and UK venues pop up time after time, in lots of threads. I've seen the faraway look on the faces of the visiting UKers who tried to share the feel of clublife. I can't afford the airfare to come absorb it through my skin. So let's go ahead and tackle it as a discussion. Can those of you with experience of UK clubs help me out?

My brain is a bit challenged these days-- please help me by focusing on the questions posed, and PM me any new questions you think we ought to include. I'm sure eventually we'll get to it all, but I want to try to avoid sparking off "thread creep" that gets ahead of my ability to understand what you're posting.

----------------------

First questions--

1. When you think of the club you like to go to best, what do you think of first? What's the setting? What's the atmosphere like at "your" club?

2. How do clubs start? How do they evolve-- do they change? What's different between a brand new club and one that's been around since anyone can remember?

Thanks!

~Susan

---

I think we're still in a position where we want most threads to grow naturally, without being known from the onset as edited threads. Let's leave this a regular, unedited thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 12:48 PM

Blimey, a lot of questions, and difficult to answer.

As no-one else has said anything, here's my 2 penn'orth to get the ball rolling:

IME each club is different, with its own atmosphere, unwritten rules, etc. Some have PAs, other are 100% acoustic. Some encourage floor singers, other don't and are more like concert-type venues in the way they are managed. They are usually more or less friendly places though.

As an amateur performer I like to go to the smaller local clubs where I can have a go myself in front of an audience. But I also like to go as a member of the audience to see established acts at the 'concert' type clubs.

Clubs may also vary in the type of music that's 'acceptable' to it. Some are very traditional in outlook and might frown upon anything contemporary, others are more relaxed - I guess it comes down to that horse thing again. Some will encourage audience participation, some might not be so keen, but it depends on who's performing.

It helps if the club has access to decent ale too, but that's just my personal preference ;-)

Sorry for the rambling nature of the above, in no particular order, but at least you've got a response.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Gedpipes
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:02 PM

What is the purpose behind your questions Susan? It might be useful for you to provide a context. If it is a reseach question it might be helpful to say so. The responses you get may tend to be different than a thread for the sake of it.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:08 PM

Well, someone has to start, and bearing in mind this is a moderated permathread, this post may be replaced by more apposite ones later.
But, from personal experience.

It depends on size, size of venue, number of members/attendees.

It depends on whether there is a stated guest, or it is just an 'open mike' session where everyone who wants can get up & sing. Bearing in mind that these type sessions will not necessarily even possess a 'mike'.

Usually it is on licensed premises, in fact under the new laws, that seems a legal requirement. But I was referring to an alcohol license.
On licensed premises it will usually have a room of its own for the evening, with drink served in a separate room. This means less distractions for the singers, and (if the organisers wish it) the presence of a younger element to continue the traditions.
The premises will usually sell "Real Ale". This may confuse some, but the main difference between this and 'keg beers' or lagers is that the beer continues fermenting within the barrel, and so is not reliant on overpressurisation or added gas to serve. A constant need to belch (or worse) can be most off-putting to a singer.

Payment: there may be a charge 'on the door', or there may be a raffle (possibly for a bottle, or a tape/CD gifted by a previous guest). There may be both.
If there is a cover charge made at the door, this will often be increased on Guest nights, and possibly reduced for those who have shown some commitment to the club by buying an annual membership.

Annual memberships also allow some clubs to prepare a periodical newsletter (even if only one page of A4 folded) but this lets them improve the chance of getting enough people in to make guest nights successful.

Usually you will spot a table with adverts for other clubs, forthcoming events etc.,

Finally (to give someone else a chance to comment) Some clubs may have a recognised charity to which they contribute any profits. But most clubs seem to be non-profit making concerns. I somehow doubt though that this is a deliberate policy!

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:09 PM

GP-- Purpose? uh....[thinking].... boundless curiosity? Wanting to flesh out an emerging suspicion that I don't know everything? hm.... wanting to be a better friend to my new UK friends by understanding the world a bit better? Wanting to make a few things simpler for US/UK conversation around Mudcat? Stuff like that. The person-to-person view of a complex world. I much prefer that to research, but research is OK too if that's what folks want to contribute.

And Scrump-- GREAT post.

~S~

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:13 PM

Folk clubs certainly evolve and change. When I started going to folk clubs they were full of incredibly attractive young people aged about 18, such as myself.. Nowadays thy tend to be not-very-full of not-so-attractive people in their 60's, such as myself.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 01:20 PM

NP-- ...this post may be replaced by more apposite ones later.

Oh no! I may organize them a bit, but no post will be considered definititve and/or replace others.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: jojofolkagogo
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 02:17 PM

Good thread WYSIWYG but the question is much too wide to answer
there is SO VERY MUCH in a folk club that they are all at variance

TRY to get the fair and come and see for yourself it's GREAT over here!!!!

Jo-Jo

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 02:23 PM

Thanks, Jo-Jo... can you tell me about the one you frequent most?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Sooz
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:05 PM

We go regularly to about eight and they are all different!

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:32 PM

Sooz,

   Which one do you like to play at the most? What makes this particular place your favorite? What makes a club a non-favorite to play at?

Michelle

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Sooz
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:35 PM

If we don't like it we don't go back!
Must be friendly, quiet (apart from the music) and non-smoking. Its also nice if it isn't too predictable.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:37 PM

Wow. *Eight* folk clubs within reach? Makes me realize what a small town I live in. We have ONE folk club. Even though we have 30,000 residents we are waterbound and can't/don't draw from neighboring communities.

Judging by what I'm reading above, the folk club several of us started last summer, ours is a concert-type. Five sets are scheduled beforehand and there is no opportunity for anyone to perform beyond that. For *that* evening- they *can*, however, approach me about performing the next month.

In the UK, does the same Folk Club serve different functions, depending upon the night, i.e., do they sometimes have Open Mic, sometimes paid Guest Artists, sometimes concert type?

Thanks for this thread, VYZIVYG.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:39 PM

Do people gather on a stage to play or sit around in a circle or random folks play at tables? Is there generally a theme or do people play whatever they feel like (ok...yes, the genre is folk...but is it planned out to play music from specific writers on one night or ?) Can you just show up and play? Is it generally a weekly thing or nightly or just random in when it takes place?

Michelle

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 03:55 PM

The first Folk Club that I ever attended was in my home town of Peterborough, around 1967.
The club was in the back room of a pub (which, sadly, is long since demolished). The evening started around 7:00 or 8:00 pm (can't remember which now). Attendees paid a nominal fee at the door. There may have been seats around three sides of the room (although my memory may be faulty here) and there were pub tables scattered through the room, each with 2 or 3 chairs - you sat wherever you could find a seat. At the end of the room, furthest from the door, was a raised stage (I think!).
There were around 4 or 5 resident singers: these were a varied bunch - one was a (white) blues singer, one sang mainly comic songs, many of his own composition, a man and wife duo did mainly American songs and chorus type songs and another sang English traditional songs. These residents took turns to fill the first part of the evening, doing about 2 songs each.
Next up was the 'Guest'. This was usually a professional, or semi-professional, singer booked in advance by the club organiser (who was also one of the residents). The Guest would entertain us for the next 30 - 45 minutes and then there would be a 'beer break'. After that there would be a chance for 'floor singers' to have a go (ie. members of the audience with a desire to participate, visitors from other clubs or even semi-professionals angling for a booking).
The evening would end with another session from the Guest who, of course would be thanked effusively by the club organiser, subjected to thunderous applause by the audience and urged to perform an encore.

Amazingly, all of the clubs that I have attended since, in a number of different parts of the country, have, with minor variations, followed much the same format.

The other important thing about UK folk clubs is that they are often very friendly places and can be very good from a social point of view. I have made many good friends, over the years, and consider myself very lucky to have encountered such a wonderful institution.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:03 PM

Singaround layouts and formats vary:

a) Some put the chairs in a circle (I don't like that, myself, too "twee")
b) Some have the floorsingers get up onto a "stage" area
c) Some just do it from where they are sitting (my preferred style)
e) Some take it in turns to do 1 number on a roundrobin basis left to right or the reverse
f) Some are MC-ed (the MC has a list of names and asks the next floorsinger to be getting ready as the previous one is about to start). If the MC is good, this can be a very good way of mixing styles and quality.
g) Some do 1 song at a time; others do 2 at a time.

Usually at a singaround you just turn up and if you are new to the club let organiser that you are there and would like to participate.

Some are weekly, some are fortnightly, some are monthly. Then there are impromptu ones (we just ran one because Dan McKinnon was in the area and had a night free).

Usually the singarounds are not themed - but some clubs like to have a themed night once in a while. Personally I don't like that, I find it stifles spontaneity - better to take my cue for what to sing from the person that sang before me.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:11 PM

In UK usage, is a "singaround" mostly a song swap for the sake of the song and the swap, or a perfomance for folks in attendance who listen, and don't sing?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:20 PM

Great thread. Thanks for reminding me why I continue to come back to this site. (Russ in the USA)

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:22 PM

Yer welcome, Russ, and next time-- don't forget why! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: treewind
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:26 PM

Anything can happen, but here's what's fairly typical at venues that call themselves folk clubs (as opposed to sessions, which are less formal)

Do people gather on a stage to play or sit around in a circle or random folks play at tables?
Usually there's a small stage or an end of the room designated as such. And seating accordingly, with or without tables.

Is there generally a theme
Not usually, but some clubs like to do that, especially when it's a singer's night, perhaps if there's a seasonal excuse.

Can you just show up and play?
Yes, though if it's a club that has guests and you want to do that on a guest night and you aren't known to the organisers it's not a bad plan to phone up in advance.

Is it generally a weekly thing or nightly
Weekly, bi-weekly or monthly

Most folk clubs have booked guests, rarely every time if it's a weekly club. So they are a bit more organised that you seem to think, and have a schedule with dates etc. They also have an MC who runs the evening and they charge (not a lot) for entry.

But there are exceptions to almost all of that...
- "folk clubs" that call themselves that but don't have guests
- clubs where people tend to sing from wherever they're sitting
- concert clubs that don't have floor singers
- clubs with no charge but a "voluntary" collection
- "clubs" that put on concerts at random infrequent intervals

And then there's the things that we at least in the UK) don't usually call clubs, like sessions (song, instrumental or both), acts simply booked to perform at pubs and other venues, Arts centre, theatre and village hall concerts, "open mic" nights etc.

We don't have house concerts very much, because most of us don't have houses big enough. And similarly we don't have the coffee house culture that the USians seem to.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Fidjit
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:26 PM

the folk clubs in Britain (What's the UK?) started in the fifties and early sixties. Came in after the coffee bars left over from ww2 and where the skiffle clubs grew. Were also a spin off from the jazz, I mean "trad jazz" clubs like, Chris Barbers or the one I went to in Edmonton, London, where George Melly sang with the Mike Mulligan jazz band on a Sunday night.

And yet again, after the, "Ban the Bomb" marches in the fifties.

We settled in places in London like the, "Troubadour" with residents Martin Winsor and Red Sullivan. Red came from the trad Jazz world. Martin played Skiffle. The club was one of the best. Sadly both are gone, but I do believe the trobadour is still going.

You have to remember that this was before TV really (And the Bloody Discos)and we were still entertaining ourselves.

Clubs then deveolped the, Residents, Guest and Floor Singer, style.

This ment the Residents would warm up the audience with a few numbers. The Guest Artist would do His/Her/Their first of two spots. Then there would be a break of 15 to 20 minutes where raffles etc were held. (Enough time to fill the glass and empty the other one as well).

After the break two or three "Floor singers", usually someone trying to get a booking later on. Or testing themselves for later projects. Would do a song a each. Many later very good artist started as floor singers. It was the only way to go. That and strating your own club. Which a lot of us did.

Then the Guest would finish the night with the second spot.

Most Folk Clubs today still follow the same Format.
Some are good. (The real ale helps) Some are bad. Some it's just a bad night. Or perhaps it's just you and you should have stayed at home and watched the telly.

Lots have developed in to "Session" clubs. Where everyone joins in with what is going on. Some are controlled, some are not. By controlled I mean that there is someone making sure that everyone gets a chance to play. Sort of in a round the room thingy.
Bit daunting for the begginer as your turn approaches and everyone else is so good. Uncontrolled they seem to be one sided. With one type of music dominating(Mostly the celtic muzak).

Well now I know I've trodden on a few toes so time to stop my ramblings.

As someone said, "Come and see for yourself". I go over from time time. They're good fun. And then there are all the festivals as well! And the workshop week-ends.

Can't beat it.

Chas

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:35 PM

Thanks Anahata!!!!!!!!!!!! Very helpful!!!

:) Michelle

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: bradfordian
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:39 PM

The comments made so far have been very representative of the British folk club, and you won't go far wrong in absorbing these comments. So in order to consolidate your ideas, you really could do with getting some hands on experience of the British pub. Sadly continental replicas just don't hit the spot. ie, you really need to come to the UK to soak up the ambience.

I've had the benefit of attending a US house concert, but not a song circle, and have also been to the Press Room in Portsmouth. Many of you will have been to the Press Room. If you were able to take the people and music out of the bar and put them in their own private room, say above a bar (so long as there is access to beer) and then you would have something close to a British Folk Club. Just to add to the earlier comments, there is usually, on "singers nights" a mixture of accapella singers, instrumentalists, and often some poetry (usually humorous) thrown in too. And it is run on song circle lines by all would be performers being given a chance to do one "number", then going round again if time permits. The idea is to build up a fund with which to pay a monthly paid guest. Underpinning the British Folk Club seems to be the ample availability of beer. There may be one or two folk clubs that run without beer, but not that many, (modest -usually)insobriety seems to add to the develpoment of the club atmosphere. There is often public transport for those over the limit to get us the short distance home.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:41 PM

Agree with Chas' last statement. A "Singers' night" at Herga, with Moses & the Ref, Johnny Collins, HergaKitty, Graeme Knights, George Clarke (dragonzorg), Mary O'Connor, Mike Sparks and Bob Hambleton (Hovering Bob) plus whoever else happens to be around is a treat, and often a lot more enjoyable than many a guest night, irrespective of the quality of the guest.

Susan, our "singarounds", or "singers' nights" or whatever they are called, are both song-swaps and performances for non-participants (though the audience joins in the choruses anyway). A chnce to sing a song the others may not have heard, or not for a long time, to resurrect something from past repertoire, to try out something new (often in my case), or even to sing something topical depending on the season, the date or even recent world events.

In my book, a good singaround will NOT emphasise quality of performance over licence to participate; all are equal. The emphasis should be in the "giving" of the song and the freedom to join in with choruses etc, not the "receiving". I see the singaround as the main vehicle for the "folk process" and passing on of the old songs and tradition, and so it has a very special place in my heart.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:42 PM

Do the smaller towns have clubs too? Or are they mostly in the cities/suburbs?

Michelle

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:43 PM

Most people at a singarounds sing. although a few sadists drag their wives, husbands and occasionally dogs along.

People approach their performance with differing levels of professionalism. that's because we're all different.

Sometimes you get a professional folksinger doing an item from his act, sometimes you get the local amnesiac with the words of the Wild Rover in an exercise book. Other times you get people with a slight professorial air about them and a huge loose leaf folder of songs - and when it comes to their turn, they start dismantling the folder, and saying actually I didn't prepare anything.....the implication being that their singing is so integral to the folk tradition, whichever song they alight upon will be a contribution of substance.

My favouite club is The vernon Arms in Spondon, a suburb of Derby - I suppose I drive about 16 miles to it - there are two clubs nearer on that night of the week, but I prefer the Vernon.

there is great PA system. Gary who heads the committee who runs it, has a ceildh band. there are three or four pros who turn up every now and then, jack hudson, No Fixed Abode . There are loads of really good semi pro singers. On a singers night, which is three out of every four weeks - you might see fifteen different acts. You pay two quid if you don't want to sing - one quid if you do. This stops people who don't to listen just drifting in. there is a free buffet and raffle in the interval.

there is every kind of music - a guy who sings in Gaelic, numerous instrumentalists, singer songwriters, poets, traditional folk singer - singers of trad material that is. Everybody gets two songs.

AND its on ground level so disabled folk can get in.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 04:44 PM

yes folk clubs also exist in small towns, and villages.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Mingulay
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 06:26 PM

From my experience much of the enjoyment of a British folk club is provided by the welcoming attitude of the pub landlord and his staff. The number of clubs that have folded because of a change of landlord is huge, as I'm sure most British 'catters have experienced. When all the constituent elements gel there is no better place in which to spend a few hours each week.

Guest DB - I first went to Peterborough club when it was at the Heron in Stanground if I remember rightly. That would have been back end of the 60's and being run by Pete? Shaw. I lived in Stamford in those days when that club was at the London Inn. I must be getting old!

Bye the way, nice thread Susan.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 06:59 PM

I have just got home from a 'Singers Night' at what HAS to be one of the better small clubs in Southern England - Maidenhead , at the Seven Stars , Knowl Hill . The landlord likes having us there , the beer is GOOD (Breakspears) and the room has excellent acoustics . We had nearly thirty people , who ALL paid Two Pounds for the evening , and Sixteen Floor spots did their thing , which ranged from Poetry reading , through a variety of songs , traditional and contemporary , with or with out accompaniment , and a few tunes as well . We had three guitars , two conertinas , one mandolin , one 5 string banjo , one excellent fiddle player and some superb singing . For MY money , thats a UK Folk Club !

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:33 PM

The picture from our part of Wales -

Our local club meets every Sunday night in a village pub about 15 miles from the nearest sizeable town. Fortunately we live about 4 miles from said pub. Not quite every Sunday - if it's a Bank Holiday weekend, there's no club.

(Now you need another thread about "What's a UK Bank Holiday?")

Once a month or thereabouts, from September to May, there's a guest (professional) performer who does two 40 minute concert sets, with a 15 minute interval - times can be very approximate. There may or may not be "floor spots" by local performers. There is a charge for admission.

The other weeks are "singers' nights" - no charge and much more informal. We sit in the back room, drink, chat and sing. The singing is controlled, to make sure everyone gets a chance, it's 1 song/tune/poem/whatever each, then on to the next person, then round the room again - depends how many turn up. If there's only 5 or 6 of us, it goes round LOTS of times.

We prefer the singers' nights usually.

Andrew & Carole

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 07:58 PM

Hmm... just to say that although there is some substance to what Mingulay has said (for instance the club before the current one that I used to go to was in a rather run down pub with strange landlord, and a strange atmosphere) not all UK clubs are actually run on pub premises, so the attitude of the landlord in some cases makes diddley squat of a difference!

The club that I am involved in here in Guildford has been bedding in for the last 9 months in the Assembly Rooms of the Guildford Institute - housed in a nice Victorian building in the middle of the town. Unlike many clubs where people can just turn up on the night and expect to get in it focuses on a membership system (to a large extent - although this does NOT stop non-members from booking and turning up).Pre-booking is strongly encouraged as we are limited by safety regulations to a maximum of 50 bodies on the premises on club evenings.(Happily for all but 2 of the monthly meetings so far all 50 seats have sold out in advance).

The club meets on a monthly basis, has 2 resident singers, and depending on which of us is available, or both (if that's the case) we'll do two numbers each, one of us at the start of the first set of the guest, and the other at the start of the second set. The guest will then do something like a 40 minute set in each half (rounded off at the end with the obligatory encore, of course!) During the 15 minute break in between both halves, the organiser will usually read out the "parish notices", announcing forthcoming folk or similar events in the town or surround, or even further afield. To date we haven't been able to accommodate floorsingers due to a very tight turnaround time (we have to be off the premises by 11 pm, to allow the caretaker to go home!!)

Our club is completely acoustic, and flavour of the day is predominantly traditional material,with no singer's nights.

We are also "traditional" in that we have a raffle - did anybody mention anywhere in this thread that 2 stalwart components of British folk clubs are the raffle, and candles?? WE don't have candles anywhere at ours (normally found at clubs where there are tables present!) but we do cheerfully extort money from punters, the prize in our case being one of the guest performer's CD's (although I have been to other clubs where stuff like chocolates or bottles of drink are on offer).

From my experience of other clubs that I've been to, whether they're good or not (no matter what sort of club they are) depends very much on the organisers and helpers, and their attitude and friendliness towards members/customers. I can recall going to one while on holiday, where no attempt at all was made to welcome anyone new onto the premises - result, I walked away and didn't bother - felt VERY out of place. But others make the effort to involve anyone on their own, or new to the club, and have a very sociable atmosphere. What is very clear,however, is that each and every club has its own flavour and different way of operating, although the general overall framework is relatively the same. I reckon it can be confusing sometimes, though... for instance, the floorsinger system seems to vary a lot. Some clubs run a list on the door, and then either cherry pick, or take it in strict turn to get -everybody- who's asked to sing on; others run a first past the post system (eg first four to ask to sing get on); others do it by invitation only; others make sure that people who'eve come from a long distance get to sing in preference to homegrown talent... a veritable minefield, unlesss you know the policy of club that you're going to . Wouldn't change any of it!!!

I reckon most of us could write a full book on this - looks as though I already have.... SORRY... I'll slope off now!

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 08:10 PM

As most people have said, it all depends, when it comes to details, but there's a pretty general assumption that there's a balance between local floor singers and imported guests, and that things should be pretty informal.

I've only come across one club where there seems to be a pattern of staged concerts and an audience there to listen. (Hitchin, the only time I got across there. Great concert with Eric Bogle, but it didn't feel like a folk club.)

Where the balance is drawn depends basically on numbers - small clubs are more likely to have occasional guests with most nights being singarounds, and so forth. Bigger clubs are more likely to have guest most nights, with a couple of floor singers.

One thing that's pretty universal - the guests stick around to listen to the floor singers, and the assumlption is that there's no big division between performers, paid or othwerwise, and an audience. Guests always sell their CD'sd, and that is often the major money spinner for them. And there is always a raffle for club funds. That's a tradition.

Function rooms in plubs have always been the main places where clubs meet, but they are getting harder to find. There are clubs in places other than pubs. There are even some clubs where you can't get a drink, I believe, but not many. (Even the Bishop's Stortford one that meets in a church vestry has a bar.)

Theoretically you have to be a member or a guest of a member to attend, but I've never heard of anyone being stopped from attending for those kind of reasons.

Any American visitors (for example) wanting a spot, just make yourself known to the person you pay admittance to, and you're pretty sure to get asked up. (Unless you leave it too late and there's no room for an extra one.)

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 10:22 PM

LOL-- We have bank holidays, too! AKA "legal holidays" or "state holidays" but more often "national holidays"-- here, it's a day nearly every shop is closed, as well as schools, post office, gummint offices, and BANKS. And people generally get them as a paid holiday if they work fulltime.

Right?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 10:30 PM

Spot on.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Jun 06 - 10:35 PM

I just knew it! :~)

And thank God for them, too. They have often furnished the weekend long enough that a Mudcatter is passing by and stops to visit.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: GUEST,GS
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 03:20 AM

Folk music, which has its roots in the distant past and comes in many forms, is alive and well in Lincolnshire and available to all, as an inexpensive and sometimes free means of listening to, or partaking in live music. Yes they are Clubs (which you join just by being there) and most of them are held in Pubs ( some in private rooms) and some are held in Village Halls but this is not pubbing and clubbing as we know it.
There are some who, through stereotyping, believe that Folk Clubbers are bearded, real ale swilling loudmouths but this is far from true as you will find out if you choose to visit a Club near you.

Some Folk Clubs have only "Singarounds" (SAR) where anyone who attends may sing if they wish. Usually well organized and controlled and very often free of charge.
Some have more organized evenings where guests do "spots" and perhaps perform four or five songs/tunes, on a time limited basis. Performers are booked to appear by the organiser, usually well in advance and these Clubs usually make a small admission charge, of say £2-5 for such evening, which is excellent value for live music.
Others may have "Sessions"(SESS), where many musicians turn up and can all play/sing together as they choose.
Some Clubs have gone a step away from the traditional Folk and hold "Accoustic" evenings,(ACC) which allow other styles of song/music.
Any of the above styles may be complimented by occasional nights where a paid guest artist, usually someone well known in the Folk Scene, may appear and for which there is likely to be a charge of a few pounds.
Having given some loose definitions of the make up of Folk Clubs, it would seem to make sense to present some ideas of what you, as a new attender, might expect.

In general, all Clubs are easy going and have a welcoming atmosphere, in which you may strike up new friendships and may even form alliances, which may enable or encourage you to perform, although this is not an expectation. Some attenders only listen and enjoy quality music by often very amateur performers.


There are many Folk Clubs in Lincolnshire a few of which are listed here :-Alford, Lincoln, Spalding, Stamford, Epworth, Market Rasen, Louth, Brigg, Barton , and more.
One of the Clubs is described here with greater detail, to give some idea of what you might expect:-


Gainsborough Folk Club:- Is held on alternate Fridays from around 8.30pm, in a private room at The Melrose Sports and Social club on Melrose Avenue, Gainsborough,It is a non-smoking venue.
Currently the Club caters for "Singarounds", which may see up to twenty people perform, perhaps two songs each, during an evening.
Admission is totally free but raffle tickets are sold in an effort to raise money to pay for the occasional guest performer of note.
The Club organizers, Mike and Sue Dewsbury, known as "Stitherum", perform at the club and several other clubs in the area. There is a wealth of talent and experience in this Club and a few of the members have shown their mettle whilst appearing on Radio Lincolnshire in recent months, where they have made recordings, free of charge, to raise money for charity on the now well circulated "Yellowbellies" C/D.
This C/D is available by contact with Les Worrall (See below).



Gainsborough Folk Club has a great atmosphere, will welcome performers and listeners and actively encourages anyone who wants to try Folk singing to "have a go". Many travel from far afield to experience the atmosphere and the quality of the music in this club.

The Organisers of this club also organize the Gainsborough Folk Festival, details of which may be found on the website link below.

Club website:- http://www.angelfire.com/folk/gainsboroughfolk/

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 03:43 AM

Usually it is on licensed premises, in fact under the new laws, that seems a legal requirement.

Just to clarify the legal position. Basically a folk club will need a licence.

If you are entertaining an audience (paid or not) then the venue needs a licence to provide "regulated entertainment" in this case live music. Even providing facilites auch as a piano and you need a licence.

Note, the serving of alcohol is not involved!!

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: pavane
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 04:24 AM

In fact, in the old days, folk clubs were also subject to laws. If the club charged for entry, you had to be a member for at least 24 hours before you attended, and there are many tales of council staff posing as 'visitors' and prosecuting the club because they were allowed in. (Was this Entrapment?)

I am out of touch with the current legal position though.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 04:41 AM

El Greko wrote: 'In my book, a good singaround will NOT emphasise quality of performance over licence to participate; all are equal. The emphasis should be in the "giving" of the song and the freedom to join in with choruses etc, not the "receiving". I see the singaround as the main vehicle for the "folk process" and passing on of the old songs and tradition, and so it has a very special place in my heart.'

I thoroughly agree with that. I didn't mention sessions or singarounds in my original post, but I also believe that singarounds are where anybody who turns up should be able have a go. Some of them might be, shall we say diplomatically, a little rusty, or just beginners and not very skilful on their instruments or in projecting their voice - but that should be no barrier to them having a go. Everyone has to start somewhere! If there are a few more experienced performers there, they have to wait their turn just like everyone else.

Sessions (the way I understand them) are slightly different - this tends to be where musicians can meet up and perform together on an impromptu basis. I realise that this is just one interpretation of what a session is, but that's my understanding. In this case you would not normally expect people to join in unless they know the tune and can play it more or less competently.

And of course there can be combined sessions/singarounds which are more or less a combination of the above two formats.

Theming - another topic I didn't address. Some clubs or sessions/singarounds have occasional themes, e.g. Burns night, ST Patrick's night, Christmas - where the idea is that everyone should perform songs/tunes relevant to the occasion. These can be fun and I enjoy the challenge of having to dust off old stuff I haven't done for years, or learning new material (if I have the time) especially for the occasion.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: IanC
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 05:07 AM

Might be worth noting here that formal "Folk Clubs" are nowadays much rarer (at least where I am) than pub singarounds / sessions / general music nights. These are generally much less formal than clubs, require less organisation and tend to be more inclusive of "non folkies".

My session has been going on for 12-13 years now. Mostly singing but with occasional instrumental outbursts. People in the bar, particularly the regulars (i.e. regular drinkers), frequently join in with both chorus and the song if they know it. Some of them (like Charlie, who has taken to bringing her flute) give us a song or a tune during the evening or borrow a guitar to do something with us.

A small group of us form the core, and we tend to practise together and perform at other venues (when we feel like it), but there is no membership, and there are no fees (though you can buy me a pint if you like).

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 06:38 AM

My favourite folk club is in my husbands home town of Beverley. When his mother was ill and we spent a lot of time there it was a lifeline.
Used to meet in a rectangular room upstairs with tables along the sides and an open fire at the end where you stood to sing or play.
It was more often a singers/musicians night with Richard in charge to see that everyone got a chance if they wanted. The standard was generally very high, but the feel was inclusive so you could have a go (or just join in any chorus that happened). The members had very varied styles.
Sometimes, to encourage people learning new songs, Richard put on a theme night, but was'nt too strict about it. Then Bill would do something daft, like the "Sea songs night" when he sang "Just a shanty in old Shanty Town"
They had a guest night once in 3 or 4. The floor singers for that were the best of the members.
The room was good to sing in, so no amplification needed, and people paid attention. Nice friendly club.
Due to changes in music licencing they've moved and are now called "Not the White horse Club". Don't know if it's changed the atmosphere, but I guess the members are as good.

At home I usually go to Folk Dance Clubs, which are different beasts. What Greg said about age applies to them even more.

And there's a pub in Audlem that holds my favourite music session.
Sessions don't usually have an MC, you start a tune or song when you feel like it. Some sessions are expert, and must be quite exhilarating if you are good enough.
At the Shroppie Fly, although they are good musicians they play things lots of times through and not too fast, there are songs you can play along to, and everyone is encouraged by the friendly members. It's different every time you go, according to who's there.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 06:41 AM

The Club I'm involved in has been trying to drop the 'folk club' tag for years( unsuccessfully) in order to get the youth more interested.
It runs weekly with roughly monthly guests. A singaround most weeks with no formal charge.( often a lively discussion group with songs) A door charge when there is a guest, with two to three floor singers.
We gave up the candles about ten years ago...Those were the days!
By the way it's the General Ludd, in Golcar Near Huddersfield.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Hovering Bob
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 06:51 AM

In answering the inherent question in the thread title, I would say a UK Folk club it is a place where people with similar interests can get together and socialise while sharing their common enthusiasm for a type of music that reaches their very essence. My personal feeling is that the key element is the socialisation. Virtually all my current circle of friends I have met through my folk activities.
When my first marriage broke up it was the folk world that held me together and which helped me create the life I now enjoy, and boy do I enjoy it! I've seen the same healing and supportive aid being administered to other people in need.

As to the nature of clubs, I agree with most of what has gone before. My preference is definitely not 'concert clubs' although I will go to them if there is an artist or act that I particularly wish to see. They are inherently unfriendly compared to the more common general format clubs and tend to have set group of 'residents' so you don't get the variety of performance that the 'general clubs give you. To be honest there are some concert clubs where you feel that the residents/organisers run the club to give themselves a weekly ego trip.

I have been fortunate in the clubs I have been able to get involved with, the singaround clubs in Bedford, Readifolk in Reading, Uxbridge, Maidenhead and Herga in NW London are all 'singer based' clubs, promoting floor singers as well as providing 'professional' guests.
The culture of the clubs I like is that everyone is accepted no matter how good or bad, experienced or raw beginners they may be. Obviously we all prefer to hear good performers but the folk world's acceptance of anyone who is willing to offer a contribution is what makes it special. The song is the thing, not the singer and not the level of performance.

I have no experience of the American folk scene but as I understand it from friends that do, the Americans expect for more talk and introduction to the performance of a song than would be expected or appreciated by a British audience. The song's the thing, unless the talk is a key part of the performer's act.   

Enough hovering.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Fidjit
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 09:04 AM

Just to add that after singing, in the fifties and early sixties, "We shall over come" etc. i.e. Big Bill Broonzy, Kingston Trio and Peter Paul and Mary, Clancy Bothers with Tommy Makem and so on. We did overcome. We (the Brits) found that we had our own English/British folk songs. They came out of the woodwork so to speak. The Copper Family, Joe Pardon Cyril Poacher and lots, lots, lots more. Bill Leader with Topic Records recorded most of them. Jim Lloyd and Wally Whyton had them on, "Folk on Two", on the then, Long Wave, Radio 2! (No FM in those days!)

Oh yes. And we have the Barn Dances too. Or Ceilidh as they are now known. They're great fun too. With often as not Great Ceilidh Bands. With loads of bounce. The kids are finding those great fun. Whereas the folk clubs have a decidedly elderly audience. The youngsters (Anything younger than me)are really enjoying the Ceilidh's.

Then there's the Morris and Molly dancing!

Great stuff all of it. Glad to be a part of it.

Chas

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 09:35 AM

Related: How Far to Session or Jam?

It would be great if y'all would add your posts there as well.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:36 AM

These raffles - what do you raffle off? And how many things per night? What kind of object is it usually and how much is it worth? How do you acquire the object in the first place?

Thank youl

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Sooz
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:53 AM

Often a bottle of wine, not usually many prizes. Sometimes bought specially but may be donated. (A good way of getting rid of unwanted gifts!)

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 10:55 AM

Pavane mentioned:

there are many tales of council staff posing as 'visitors' and prosecuting the club because they were allowed in. (Was this Entrapment?)

In a sense, maybe, but for legal purposes (at least in the US), it means that the investigator has induced a person to commit a crime who otherwise would not have engaged in the prohibited act. This is an oversimplification, of course, but that's essentially it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Kenneth Ingham
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 02:40 PM

My club in Eltham is great.

Subject: RE: Q & A: What is a UK Folk Club?
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Jun 06 - 03:23 PM

I'm involved with the running of three clubs, and they are all very different.

The Open Door Folk Club meets in a small room, and rarely has attendances into double figures. Songs in the Snug also meets in a small room, and has similar attendances, yet is located in the same building as the Railway Folk Club... which has average attendances in excess of fifty!

The OD and Snug are similar in that the attendees are predominantly unaccompanied singers, with a leaning towards traditional style songs.

The Snug is always a singaround, whereas the OD has a monthly guest.

We sit around the room in a circle (not 'twee', just furniture!), with singers being asked to perform in the order in which they arrived through the door at the OD, but round the room clockwise in the Snug.

The Railway attracts a much wider variety of performers, and has three different formats:

Singers Night: People perform from where they are seated, in the order that they arrive through the door.

Big Spot: A singers night up to the beer break, after which a local performer has the opportunity to show what they can do, and get paid for it. It is run in 'concert' format, but those singers who don't feel comfortable on the stage may sing from where they are seated.

Guest Night: No 'floor singers' unless by special arrangement; the support for the guests is done by the club 'residents' on a rota.

The atmosphere is warm and friendly at all three clubs, and the only 'rules' are the usual 'no talking or walking when someone is performing', which is fair to everyone - there's nothing worse as a performer to be distracted!

Fairly recently all three clubs became totally non-smoking, which is really another issue.

The variety of ability of performers is evident at all three clubs, from those who can't hold a tune (even if it's in a bucket) to seasoned professionals. But what is of overriding importance is the enthusiasm and enjoyment of all who participate.

All three clubs also have a policy of the performer being in charge - no-one else should join in with instrumental accompaniment unless the singer gives the okay, and singing the choruses is compulsory...!!

Some performers prefer to read, others sing entirely from memory, and some do a bit of both.

I don't think there is such a thing as a typical UK folk club - the beauty is in the diversity.

It's already been said - the only way to find out is by being there!