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BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?

frogprince 08 Jun 06 - 12:19 PM
pdq 08 Jun 06 - 12:38 PM
Rapparee 08 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM
MMario 08 Jun 06 - 12:54 PM
Mr Red 08 Jun 06 - 12:55 PM
catspaw49 08 Jun 06 - 01:01 PM
John MacKenzie 08 Jun 06 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,Mack 08 Jun 06 - 01:53 PM
JohnInKansas 08 Jun 06 - 02:01 PM
Chief Chaos 08 Jun 06 - 02:45 PM
Ebbie 08 Jun 06 - 04:16 PM
catspaw49 08 Jun 06 - 04:22 PM
catspaw49 08 Jun 06 - 04:27 PM
Sorcha 08 Jun 06 - 04:34 PM
catspaw49 08 Jun 06 - 04:39 PM
Rapparee 08 Jun 06 - 05:20 PM
frogprince 08 Jun 06 - 05:21 PM
Sorcha 08 Jun 06 - 05:28 PM
frogprince 08 Jun 06 - 05:31 PM
Sorcha 08 Jun 06 - 06:13 PM
Deckman 08 Jun 06 - 06:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 06 - 07:28 PM
JohnInKansas 08 Jun 06 - 08:37 PM
Arne 09 Jun 06 - 11:39 AM
Arne 09 Jun 06 - 11:44 AM
Arne 09 Jun 06 - 11:49 AM
Rapparee 09 Jun 06 - 11:53 AM
open mike 10 Jun 06 - 09:09 AM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Jun 06 - 09:46 AM
frogprince 10 Jun 06 - 10:08 AM
Rapparee 10 Jun 06 - 12:00 PM
open mike 11 Jun 06 - 12:04 AM
Paul Burke 12 Jun 06 - 05:37 AM
catspaw49 12 Jun 06 - 06:27 AM
The Fooles Troupe 12 Jun 06 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Telemark 24 Jun 06 - 09:19 PM
catspaw49 24 Jun 06 - 09:34 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 24 Jun 06 - 09:39 PM
GUEST,Jon 24 Jun 06 - 09:59 PM
JohnInKansas 25 Jun 06 - 03:36 AM
skipy 14 Nov 06 - 04:20 AM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Nov 06 - 07:27 AM
Bunnahabhain 14 Nov 06 - 08:24 AM

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Subject: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 12:19 PM

Just saw a local ad for this. They claim improved tire life, more consistent tire pressure, less heat buildup, and improved gas mileage.
The price is $29.00 for a set of tires. My guess would be that any gas savings would be so minute that the payback would take about 90 years. But what about the rest of the claims? Who here has the related know-how to judge whether this has any significant benefit of any sort?


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 12:38 PM

Nitrogen does a fine job of filling tires. I use about 70%.


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM

I doubt it's worth it. Gas is gas, whether it's air or nitrogen, as far as the tire is concerned. Sound to me like a way to make money off the chumps.

Now, helium might be a different story. Your tires would "float" above the pavement and get less wear and tear and your road noise would be squeaky and high-pitched. Of course, with less in contact with the pavement your traction would decrease -- but if you believe any of this I've got some GREAT land deals for ya!


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: MMario
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 12:54 PM

I wonder if even helium, or hydrogen, when pressurized enough for tires would result in any weight reduction?

Nitrogen wouldn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 12:55 PM

All race genres use nitrogen, and they don't even bother to use air for the in-built jacks. They were using 25 years ago when I was a timekeeper for the saloon car race in Wellington.

It conducts heat better and can distrubute the heat and dissipate it better, it is about half the weight of air and therefore reduces unsprung weight which for racers is far more important than any weight savings on the total mass of the car. It allows the suspension to work better, stick to the road quicker.

So if you plan any sporting journeys - go for it. Otherwise you still have to keep a tank of it for tyre checks.


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 01:01 PM

A couple of advantages to Nitrogen but none that would significantly improve anyone's passenger tire performance.......The nitrogen is pure and free of any moisture content which reduces oxidation and the resulting deterioration but more to the point, it reduces the rate of heat build-up and makes the heat building far more predictable. This has no real effect on YOUR car but it does in racing. F1, Indycars, and NASCAR have used nitrogen for years though for just that reason.

Keeping your tires properly inflated, rotated, and balanced with your car correstly aligned will do FAR more to increase the life of your tires and your fuel mileage.

Spaw (ASE Master Certified since 1973)


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 01:38 PM

Dutch truckers have been using it in their tyres for years, with the new smaller tyres that have arrived with bigger trailers, there is a tendency for them to overheat and blow out on ordinary air.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: GUEST,Mack
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 01:53 PM

For discussions on this and other gas saving schemes, go to http://www.newyorkgasprices.com/Forum_Category.aspx
and visit the forums there.

BTW I have an AAA Visa card and I get a 3% discount on gas.


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 02:01 PM

As Spaw (and others) note, the main advantage of nitrogen is that it's expected to by dry. Air, compressed into the tank, is nearly always at close to 100% relative humidity (at the conditions inside the tank). Some of the moisture can be dropped out when you expand it on the way to the tire, but it's always going to be "a bit damp" in the tire.

People commonly use nitrogen in aircraft tires largely to assure that the filler is dry, and in fact one can order "ordinary" nitrogen, or you can specify "dry nitrogen" as a separate product from commercial suppliers.

If moisture condenses inside a tire in flight, and freezes in a lump, touchdown and spinning the wheel up to 90 to 200 kt with a lump of ice in the bottom of the tire can be "bumpy," especially with large tires.

If you get any similar ice in an auto or other "ground vehicle" tire, it will happen while the vehicle is sitting, and will be broken up and distributed before you reach speed where it matters much. The "set" in the rubber will cause more out of balance than any expected ice - for any normal operation.

As to using hydrogen or helium, one would expect a slight reduction in inflated weight with a gas with lower molecular weight. Helium, however, is extremely difficult to contain over long periods except with container designs that specifically address its "peculiarities." Even ordinary glass is permeable to helium, albeit usually at slow leakage rates. Expecting helium to stay inside an ordinary automobile tire is about like believing in pixie dust.

Hydrogen actually is a little bit easier to keep in a can, but still would require much more frequent replenishment than a heavier gas.

The bottom line though is that if your tire can't stand exposure to the gas on the outside of the tire with satisfactory performance, a different gas on the inside isn't going to provide a lot of difference. Unless your special use demands that you squeeze out every little bit you can get, 'taint worth the hassle - or the expense.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 02:45 PM

The mileage is from lighter unsprung weight.
Tire wear is reduced due to the lighter unsprung weight and also (from what I have been told) the tire stays at a more constant pressure due to heat differences, moisture differences in the gas and the tire being less permeable to Nitrogen than it is to the 28% or so oxygen in normal air.


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 04:16 PM

JohninKansas, that's the first explanation I have heard of the 'square' tires that sometimes happen in wintertime climates, like that in Fairbanks, Alaska. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 04:22 PM

uh, no.......The unsprung weight difference in a passenger car is virtually non-existent. Now if you replace the wheels with aluminum ones and make them real skinny with real skinny tires....yes, that would reduce the unsprung weoight and if you jacked up the pressure to 55 or 60 PSI additionally.....THEN you would see a mileage difference. In that scenario though the real mileage difference would come from skinny, high inflation tires and again almost nothing to do with unsprung weight.

Unsprung weight is factor in handling. Reducing the unsprung weight to increase mileage would be like lowering the roll center or changing the polar moment of inertia to get better mileage.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 04:27 PM

Ebbie....Just don't buy nylon cord tires. Polyester cords exhibit almost no distortion unless they sit for a loooong time in extreme cold. Sadly, nylon does wear better and reacts less with the steel belts. It isn't as cold here so Karen's Bimmer beats you up for a mile or two but they wear and handle better (for the price).

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 04:34 PM

$29.00 for a SET of tires? Where do you live? I'm on my way! Mine are $80 each!


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 04:39 PM

No Sorch....That's the INFLATION charge (and inflated as well I might add) to replace the ordinary air with new and improved, super caffrazzle, belchfire, turbo whirling NITROGEN!!!! The tires are extra.................

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:20 PM

Why use the tires at all? Run it on maglev!


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:21 PM

Maybe I'll just get some of this stuff that we used to use on our soybeans, and sprinkle a little in each tire.


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:28 PM

oh, she says in a small voice. double dammit.


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:31 PM

Magnetic levitiation? Have you found the government-suppressed material on how to make that work?


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 06:13 PM

Or, a hydrogen converter to use water in the 'petrol' tank?


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Deckman
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 06:26 PM

This has nothing to do with the question, but you might find it interesting. Back in the 40's and early 50's, when I was in High School, dirt track racing became populiar here in the Seattle area. We raced old 36 Ford coupes, flat out with the floor shift "hooked" into 2nd gear. The track was a one eigth mike circle. Weight became the critical issue, not speed. A couple of "cheaters" used to fill the tires on the left side, front and rear, with WATER rather than air. This added more weight on the left side and they could gain a couple of miles an hour. They usually won, until the losers started puncturing the winner's tires and they couldn't explain where all the water came from. (I've long ago stopped doing that, by the way)! CHEERS, Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 07:28 PM

So how many garages have nitrogen pumps for keeping up the pressure? Or do you just use ordinary air, which is 70% nitrogen anyway.

Some people will buy anything...


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 08:37 PM

McG -

You can use ordinary air, but you don't compress it. You chill it.

The nitrogen liquifies a fair bit before the oxygen does, so the first bit after you hit about -190F1 (-90C) is pretty pure nitrogen. Just pour it in a can and let it evaporate.

(Don't stand too close to the can while it evaporates, if ain't got a real loose lid.)

1 From memory with no guarantees. I ain't gonna look up the exact temps for you.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Arne
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:39 AM

pdq:

Nitrogen does a fine job of filling tires. I use about 70%.

Cheapskate. I use the premium 79%.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Arne
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:44 AM


I wonder if even helium, or hydrogen, when pressurized enough for tires would result in any weight reduction?

Nitrogen wouldn't.


At same pressure and temperature, helium weighs less. Think about it.

And helium is a better conductor of heat, FWIW, but I doubt that makes any significant difference, performance-wise, plus it leaks out more quickly.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Arne
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:49 AM

Ooops, I cheated. 78% (21% O2, and traces of the rest).

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 11:53 AM

Maglev trains are in use in Japan and from Pudong airport. Ain't no secret about 'em.

To use 'em as a car, just put some magnets under the car, but with the same poles faced each other. Then put a great big magnet out in front of the car. The magnets underneath will supply the maglev and the great big one out front will attract the steel of the car, pulling it forward.

See? There's the general principles of the thing. Now it's only a matter of engineering.

PM me for how to invest in this. I plan to go IPO as soon as those pesky engineering details are worked out.


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: open mike
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:09 AM

but where do you go for a re-fill?
some pump that has nitrogen in it?
maybe the dentist office? how about nitrous ?


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:46 AM

... if you want happy tyres...


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: frogprince
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:08 AM

You know, the closest I've ever come to nitrous oxide in a dentist's office is seeing a very funny bit about it in the old Bob Hope movie "The Paleface". Is it ever used now, or how long has it been since it was replaced by novicaine or whatever?
Oh, dear, I introduce drift in my own very serious thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 12:00 PM

It's used nowadays. I've even had it (legally, in the dentist's office). It dried out my throat so much I caught a cold, but it didn't leave me yukking it up or anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: open mike
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 12:04 AM

it is used regularly..
it is not so mushc to make you laugh
(that would make it hard for the dentist
to do their work) but to make it less
likely that you will whine


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:37 AM

Using nitrogen instead of straight air, you save 3.4% in weight of gas. Assuming the tyre itself weighs about 8kg, and contains about 0.01 cubic metres of air at 2 atmospheres, the overall weight saving, not counting the metal of the wheel, is about 0.01%. Nitrogen is more thermally conductive than air- about 1% more conductive.

I think my idea for a scam is better- all those people buying hugely expensive oxygen free copper cables for hifi, then leaving them out in the air! I'll supply protective jackets filled with inert- no noble gases. The mix of gases is tuned to the room's characteristics, and the listener's preferences, by Feng Shui, dowsing, Pilates and homeopathy. Argon for heavier bass, helium for treble. Krypton for Seltic music, heavy metal fans get radon. $50 a fill that lasts a full 3 months before it needs doing again, it's a snip!


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 06:27 AM

Or you could just fart into a Baggie and sell it as fresh farm air.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:31 AM

My grandfather put money into a company, that among its products, sold tins of 'Fresh Air'.

The company went bankrupt - it was a Pyramid Scheme.

I'm not making this up you know...


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: GUEST,Telemark
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 09:19 PM

The rationale I had heard was that oxygen escapes more rapidly than nitrogen. If so, nitrogen would be enriched and would approach (but never reach) 100% through refilling the tires. Moisture could be removed from compressed air; I'm sure that would be cheaper than using bottled nitrogen. Even the theoretical benefits seem miniscule; even for racing tires, I doubt there is any practical benefit of nitrogen over DRY air.


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 09:34 PM

In racing it is a matter of temperature control and trust me, it IS a big deal!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 09:39 PM

Request///NITROS OXIDE GAS and you can laugh your ass off.

No brain damage.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 09:59 PM

Just found an interesting thread here.


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 03:36 AM

Jon -

A good link. There are apparently a couple of rational people at that site - and then some others. Parts were hilarious, but of course one visit doesn't give a person the ability to appreciate the personalities as we do here.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: skipy
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:20 AM

For more than 10 years DWT is the no. 1 in tyre gas market with more than 2500 installed units in Europe und Asia. A perfect technical concept convinced our customers. Anyway there are still some open questions concerning tyre gas. We herewith try to give some professional answers:

Can the standard handfiller be used as well for nitrogen?
Yes, nitrogen is even better because it is dry and not oxidative.

Is it possible to fill the tyre directly on setting pressure with nitrogen?
Yes, this reduces working time and even improves the mixture of the gas in the tyre, because you purge it. This is only sensfull if you use s a nitrogen generator, because nitrogen from a cylinder is 50 times more expensive.

Is a high nitrogen purity harmfull for the tyre, because oxygen molecules can accumulate inside and increase the pressure?
At very high purities of nitrogen in the tyre theoretically oxygen molecules can accumulate in the tyre, due to lower partial pressure of oxygen. But normally you will never reach these high purities in the tyre, because the final purity in the tyre is always lower than the purity of the producing generator. Anyway this effect will never ever lead to pressure increase, because even nitrogen is leaving the tyre faster than oxygen is coming in. Mostly this argumentation is used to offer the customer a low quality nitrogen generator.

How many tyres should be filled with nitrogen to make an investment for a nitrogen generator economic?
Depending on type of generator the pay-off is reasonable if you fill more than 100 tyres/month.

Is tyre gas harmfull for environment?
No, nitrogen is produced from the air that you breathe, only the oxygen molecules are removed.

Is it possible to refill the tyre, which is already filled with nitrogen, at the petrol station with air?
Generallly yes, but you reduce the quality of tyre gas, because you fill up the tyre with air, which containes oxygen.

Is it useful to vacuumize the tyre, to improve the quality of the mixture?
No, full vacuum destroys the carcass and small vacuum is not really an improvement. It is better to purge the tyre or to fill straight on setting pressure.

Is nitrogen nocif?
No, but large volumes of nitrogen in small rooms can cause suffocation, because nitrogen purges as well the room and removes the oxygen. So a sufficient ventilation of the room must be provided.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 07:27 AM

"nocif"????

as in nocif ys want in?


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Subject: RE: BS: nitrogen filled tires; worthwhile?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 08:24 AM

noxious, I presume...


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