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MySpace policies - ?

Richard Bridge 11 Jun 06 - 10:32 AM
GUEST 11 Jun 06 - 10:21 AM
Lizzie Cornish 11 Jun 06 - 10:12 AM
The Borchester Echo 11 Jun 06 - 02:07 AM
Richard Bridge 10 Jun 06 - 10:32 PM
Lizzie Cornish 10 Jun 06 - 07:57 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Jun 06 - 05:42 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Jun 06 - 05:33 PM
GUEST 10 Jun 06 - 03:36 PM
GUEST 10 Jun 06 - 03:21 PM
JedMarum 10 Jun 06 - 03:17 PM
The Borchester Echo 10 Jun 06 - 01:32 PM
Joe Offer 10 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM
Metchosin 10 Jun 06 - 11:53 AM
GUEST 10 Jun 06 - 11:05 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 10 Jun 06 - 10:57 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 10 Jun 06 - 10:54 AM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Jun 06 - 10:18 AM
mack/misophist 10 Jun 06 - 10:04 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 10 Jun 06 - 07:09 AM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Jun 06 - 06:53 AM
GUEST 10 Jun 06 - 04:20 AM
CarolC 09 Jun 06 - 10:22 PM
The Fooles Troupe 09 Jun 06 - 09:12 PM
The Fooles Troupe 09 Jun 06 - 08:40 PM
John O'L 09 Jun 06 - 07:13 PM
GUEST 09 Jun 06 - 06:41 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 09 Jun 06 - 03:21 PM
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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 10:32 AM

No, the other side of the coin is to provide low quality streaming from your own site, using the free webspace your ISP gives you. If anyone rips you off, you can sue them (or MCPS/PRS can do it for you).

If being heard matters so much you give your work away, fine, post it to myspace, and even play in those disgusting "pay to play" scam venues.

Read my lips. If you post stuff to myspace Rupie can (non-exclusively) do what he likes with it, even in direct commercial competition with you.


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 10:21 AM

Nothing like adding Mad Lizzie's confusion to a discussion is there?


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 10:12 AM

So....the other side of all this then, is to walk away. Shut your music down completely! Own it 100%, lock, stock and barrel! Never let ANYONE hear it EVER....because Heck!...if you do...someone might be recording it! They MIGHT pass it on to their pals, free of charge...and then *they* might do the same....

And worry not that your music is suddenly becoming heard by many people, worry not that those people, far from buying a Myspace Greatest Hits CD will be buying music DIRECT from YOU...and telling their friends, passing your page around the world (I found Seth Lakeman on a Russian one the other day)....

Show of Hands of course, have been TELLING people to copy their music for years! At every single gig they stand on stage and give people their permission to record the show, then to copy their music and send it on to others, with their blessings....because they KNOW that whilst they may lose a few CD sales, they will gain many more. And along with those extra CD sales...they will also gain new people who will become part of the Show of Hands world. Many of those people who learnt about Steve and Phil through 'copied' music will, no doubt, be at the third sold out BIG GIG at the Royal Albert Hall next Easter...tickets for which went within days!

If someone ELSE owned Myspace Diane, would you be ranting quite so hard???????

How much is this about Murdoch and how much is about Myspace? And do you really think that Murdoch is going to make an absolute fortune selling 4 tracks of people's music?

Perhaps it's because you're *not* in Myspace that you don't understand the strength and incredibly postivie benefits of it.

But..I'll leave you to spread your negativity....as you always seem to want to do.....

Lizzie


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 02:07 AM

And pointing out the all important T&C to starry-eyed artists who foolishly imagine The Digger is handing out a free lunch can scarcely be described as 'causing chaos', rather the reverse. There's a growing realisation that it's not just a loss leader to forgo performing rights on four tracks slapped up on your MySpace site in the expectation of selling millions of CDs in compensation.

Yet another new clause has just crept in:

a back-up or residual copy of the Content posted by you may remain on the MySpace.com servers after you have removed the Content from the Services, and MySpace.com retains the rights to those copies

Scary, right? Once you're caught, you're caught. Yes, there are what look like enormous initial benefits in being able to access music more easily by subverting MySpace, loopholes that Rupie's shit-hot lawyers are plugging as fast as they can because, whatever Ms Cornish tries to tell you, Murdoch isn't suddenly in business to give you something for nothing but purely for his usual reasons, to rip off anyone he can. Can you really feel comfortable about colluding in this in the certain knowledge that you are acquiescing to the negation of hard-won artists' rights? Only those who thought it OK to cross the Wapping picket line or who hold NewsInt shares could go along with that.


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:32 PM

Lizzie, forget the rose tinted spectacles. As a lawyer, I long ago learned that if someone puts in their contract with you that they can swindle you, they will.

It's nothing to do with the benefits - it's the terms and conditions.


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 07:57 PM

Here's the link to the BBC Myspace thread:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825?thread=2380796

And the fRoots one:

http://froots.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1292

The benefits of Myspace are huge! At the touch of a button, music is now being whizzed around the world like never before! The other day, on my page, I was playing Seth Lakeman's music and I had a link to his site on the main page. Someone sent me a message, later that day, from Maine in the USA, to say that they'd just heard Seth's music after finding my page and liked it so much that they'd downloaded all three of his CDs from iTunes immediately!

Diane (the countess)has been doing her utmost to cause chaos over Myspace, as you'll see in the BBC thread. But..the benefits far outweigh the risks (in my opinion) It is putting artists in touch with other artists and those artists can now also be in touch with their audience too...from a safe and private distance.

I can now e mail an artist's page to all sorts of people and say "Here....LISTEN to this music! Isn't it SENSATIONAL!" It is the most magical thing, it really is!

Murdoch didn't invent Myspace, he just bought it recently.

Ian Anderson of fRoots is behind it, as are other artists on the BBC thread. I'd read what *they* all have to say, before making any decisions on what Diane is saying. There are now over 80 million people in Myspace....there is a whole folk community in there, from musicians to dancers, folk festivals/magazines to radio programmes. It is like it's own music industry now, but one in which we all have a say. Everyone is helping each other, everyone is supportive.

If you're paranoid about it all, then just have some samples for people to hear.

I've found nearly 600 wonderful musicians from all around the world and some of that music has been staggeringly beautiful! To the extent that I've bought CDs almost immediately!...CDs from artists whom I would probably never, *ever* have heard of if I hadn't been in Myspace.

And...they are all here:

http://www.myspace.com/lizziecornish

And far from going on messageboards to try and put artists OFF Myspace Diane, I'll say once more what I said to you on the BBC, and that is, that perhaps you could do far more good by getting your own page and trying to help all the artists that you admire to spread their music as far as it will reach.

Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 05:42 PM

Countess Richard has part of the puzzle above.

The next bit to look at is the definition of "Services" - "and any other features, content, or applications offered from time to time by MySpace.com in connection with the Website (collectively, the "Services")."

So although the licence a user gives to Rupie the Swagman is non-exclusive - it can be for ANYTHING AT ALL that Rupie decides to do with its website. IE Bragg is wholly right.

And it gets worse. "MySpace.com may modify this Agreement from time to time and such modification shall be effective upon posting by MySpace.com on the Website. You agree to be bound to any changes to this Agreement when you use the Services after any such modification is posted. It is therefore important that you review this Agreement regularly to ensure you are updated as to any changes"

So if Rupie posts a retrospective change to the terms, to validate anything he did in the past that he was not allowed to do, when you next use the website you agree to that retrospective change.



It doesn't suprrise me. Not one little bit. For UK "consumers" however the Unfair Terms in consumer contracts regulations might offer some help.

However, just to help Rupie stitch users up further, look what you have to do if there is a dispute: -

"Disputes. If there is any dispute about or involving the Services, you agree that the dispute shall be governed by the laws of the State of California without regard to conflict of law provisions and you agree to personal jurisdiction by and venue in the state and federal courts of the State of California, City of Los Angeles. Either MySpace.com or you may demand that any dispute between MySpace.com and you arising out of this Agreement must be settled by arbitration utilizing the dispute resolution procedures of the American Arbitration Association (AAA) in Los Angeles, California."


Wonder whose side they'd be on then.......


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 05:33 PM

Murdoch is a menace to civilisation. Off to read the Myspace terms. Back soon.


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:36 PM

Billy Bragg is a tosser anyway - Jet Setting self appointed Champion Of The Pretend to be non-existant not-working class. Skinhead turned lefty songwriting moneymaker shit.


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:21 PM

Unless you have a different agreement to the rest of the world, it says they can do rather more than that.


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: JedMarum
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 03:17 PM

I don't see any issues with makin my music or photos available through Mypsace. Nor have I have not heard any issues raised by any of the other widely published and widely dirstributed artists on Mypsace. My agreement with them says that they are not on the hook for paying me royalties for my music. That they can make it available to users of their services. Makes sense to me.


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 01:32 PM

Dewy-eyed Friends Of MySpace (and thus, by association, apologists for the Dirty Digger of Wapping who smashed the UK print unions two decades ago and who inflicted Fox TV on our transatlantic cousins) take a very blinkered view of the implications of meekly handing over all rights to their work just for a bit of free publicity. Guest 6.41 pm says:

Most agree that there is nothing sinister in the terms.

Most? On the fRoots forum AND even at the BBC, rather a lot of warning bells have been rung (despite being somewhat swamped by acres of space hijacked by a Longdogs (this is a band fansite) escapee under the illusion that MySpace was about to save the world and solve all its problems). I for one am glad to find that a few are beginning wake up and heed these.

Here is a clause recently added to the 'terms and conditions':

Proprietary Rights in Content on MySpace.com.

1. By displaying or publishing ("posting") any Content, messages, text, files, images, photos, video, sounds, profiles, works of authorship, or any other materials (collectively, "Content") on or through the Services, you hereby grant to MySpace.com, a non-exclusive, fully-paid and royalty-free, worldwide license (with the right to sublicense through unlimited levels of sublicensees) to use, copy, modify, adapt, translate, publicly perform, publicly display, store, reproduce, transmit, and distribute such Content on and through the Services.


Wide-ranging or what? Of course, MySpace is a fun place to poke around in and discover new music that's really worth discovering, though it gets tedious among the excess of dross. But I really don't think Murdoch is in it for the philanthropic purpose of providing the new electronic version of the floor spot at folk clubs. Do you?


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 12:39 PM

The thread was moved to non-music because I made an honest mistake and saw a lot of words and didn't notice the reference to music. When such things happen, the appropriate response is to ask nicely and privately that the thread be moved to the music section, which is what Bonnie did. Accusations and excoriations are not particularly warranted or appreciated. This would be a much more peaceable world, if people could only realize that our fellow human beings do make mistakes (as we do ourselves), and that mistakes should not be viewed as hostile actions and excuses for counterattack.
The Clones I have no reason to move a thread or do other editing actions for sinister reasons. Why would we bother? Please don't accuse us of such.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:53 AM

Bee-dubya-el, I think it less likely that it was lousy judgement and/or impaired reasoning and more just plain insular ignorance. After all, it wasn't Pete Seeger that pulled out.

Or maybe Rupert Murdoch told them personally that this thread was BS. LOL


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:05 AM

hahahahaha....meow....meow...meow


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:57 AM

This thread is not about music because for the same reason some threads are closed, some posts are deleted, and some members have left this forum: lousy judgement and/or impaired reasoning on the part of one or more forum moderators.

And this thread will doubtlessly remain not about music because getting some of our moderators to own up to their lousy judgement and impaired reasoning is pretty damned unlikely.

(And, Joe, I've already printed a copy of this post, shredded it, stuffed it into my sanctimonious pipe and am smoking it as I finish typing. I've smoked better, but it's not bad.)


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:54 AM

Sure. Just as far as I could shot-put a grand piano.


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:18 AM

Haha!


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:04 AM

It may be worth remembering that Rupert Murdoch owns MySpace.com. Do you trust him?


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 07:09 AM

I was wondering myself why this thread got banished below stairs but didn't want to sound whiny. Thanks for saying it for me, you guys -


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:53 AM

"How is this thread not about music? "

Because some narrow minded anal retentive made a ... well whatever... - and I can now say that since this is now hidden in BS... :-P


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 04:20 AM

Dunno Carol.

--------
I think foolestroupe has it right, and sorry Guest 9 June, 6:41PM, it is something to be concerned about. Read the new terms and conditions carefuly remembering that they may well apply what they say there.


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 10:22 PM

How is this thread not about music?


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 09:12 PM

"Most agree that there is nothing sinister in the terms, which are required to ease the day to day running of myspace."


"A word means just what I want it to mean" said Humpty Dumpty.

"But..." said Alice...


With all those clever highly paid lawyers on staff, having put out something that many people clearly believe gives the shysters free run, why would they do that unless they really wanted to? And if they are really so stupid as really not to be able to tell the difference, why would you REALLY want to deal with them anyway?

This 'trick' (think $2 whore!) has been tried on before many times, and only when sufficient resistance built up, did those trying it on back away from it. Remember, all those highly paid lawyers CLAIM that they are EXPERTS on 'precedent'... which is WHY they charge so much...

And if nobody is looking, well, maybe we can make money out of it...

Check out the TOS of 'Cafepress' now...
:-)


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 08:40 PM

I trust them SOOOOO much....


just so much, and no further...


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: John O'L
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 07:13 PM

That's comforting.


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Subject: RE: MySpace policies - ?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 06:41 PM

This has been discussed at length elsewhere. Most agree that there is nothing sinister in the terms, which are required to ease the day to day running of myspace.

See www.longdogs.co.uk and the bbc board for the debate.


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Subject: MySpace policies - ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 03:21 PM

Interesting food for thought in today's The Register (www.theregister.co.uk) - Billy Bragg has taken his songs off. There has also been some consternation in other forums over the attempted hi-jacking of another well-respected artist's work & name (he's a Mudcatter so I'll leave him to speak for himself if he cares to).

Text of Bragg article is here, and I'll try to put a clickie at the bottom because the text contains several links.

Billy Bragg prompts Myspace rethink
All your content belongs to Rupert?
By Andrew Orlowski
Myspace says it's revising its legal terms and conditions after songwriter Billy Bragg withdrew his songs from the website in protest.
Myspace is owned by Rupert Murdoch's News International, a bete noir for Bragg for more than 20 years. On 18 May, Bragg's management withdrew the song files, citing the T&Cs.
Bragg said the terms allowed News International to reuse his content without remunerating the artist.
"The real problem is the fact that they can sub-license it to any company they want and keep the royalities themselves without paying the artist a penny. It also doesn't stipulate that they can use it for non-commercial use only which is what I'd want to see in that clause. The clause is basically far to open for abuse and thus I'm very wary."
It's the return of the old favorite, the ambiguous ownership contract. Myspace is actually using a boilerplate text designed to allow it to republish the content. Five years ago Microsoft was forced to change a similar, but even more acquisitive click through contract. Microsoft's Passport sign-on permitted the company to:
Use, modify, copy, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, reproduce, publish, sublicense, create derivative works from, transfer, or sell any such communication.
The terms included the right to grab trademarks and business plans. Microsoft retreated after a storm of protest.
But Redmond wasn't the first to attempt this, nor has it been the last. Apple had introduced a similar click through before retreating, and two years ago Google attached almost identical terms to its Orkut service. That was in 2004, the bloggers' love affair with the ad giant was still untarnished, and very little protest was heard.
In response to Bragg, Myspace says the T&Cs are confusing and affirmed that it had no claim on artists' materials.
"Because the legalese has caused some confusion, we are at work revising it to make it very clear that MySpace is not seeking a license to do anything with an artist's work other than allow it to be shared in the manner the artist intends," Jeff Berman told the New York Daily News. "Obviously, we don't own their music or do anything with it that they don't want."
All clear? Not quite.
In the much hyped "Web 2.0" world of "user generated content", punters are expected to contribute their works for commercial exploitation for nothing. While MySpace is pretty unambiguous about copyright, exploitation isn't so much a distant temptation, but an integral part of its business.
You can find the T&Cs here.®

Link (I hope):

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/08/blly_bragg_myspace/


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