Overlapping (folk) worlds

Subject: Overlapping (folk) worlds
From: Mo the caller
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 05:53 PM

I've noticed, when we go to festivals that we are among several sets of people who are experts in their own worlds.
When we need a rest from dancing we might go to a shanty sesssion. The room will be full of people who know all the words to shanties we never heard before, even ones with incomprehensible lines (did they really sing'Every finger a fid'?).
Or we'll try our hand at playing in a session, again a room full of people who all know the tunes, and can play them. We recognise a few, but can't play them at that speed.
Or a concert, all those artists we didn't know we were missing.
And on the way to these diversions we may pass another crowd who get their pleasure from wearing odd clothes any performing in the street.

Never mind, if any of them dropped in to the Social dance they'd find that we can do not only a ladies chain but also Grimstock Hey, Star through, Turn single, Swing through......

We enjoy it all. If only there was time for all of it.

Subject: RE: Overlapping worlds
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 04:06 AM

Good point Mo.

I have been thinking about how "Folk" has eveolved since I came across it around 1963.

Many overlapping genres I guess. I seem to remember lots of groups of men with guitars Spinners/Clancys perhaps. Two men and a girl - Peter Paul and Mary style then 4 scarry harmony people Watersons-ish. Melodoens, fiddles and sessions then all that electric stuff. No disrespect I have enjoyed all of them.

I not sure what point I am making but lots of great music has been and continues to be made and we seem to be in a time of great revival, if I dare use that word.

As for dance we seem to have a bout 10 versions of morris and ritual dance. Barn Dances never fail every community needs a place where we can dance the worst and the best kind of social dance.

Is it time to learn from and share with people who have brought their own traditions to the UK more recently?

Subject: RE: Overlapping worlds
From: skipy
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 05:36 AM

Share with, yes, learn from no no no no on!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Overlapping worlds
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 05:57 AM

Hey, I'm happy to learn from anyone!

DC

Subject: RE: Overlapping worlds
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 07:32 AM

Their is a great track om a Show of Hands album where they play Seven Yellow Gypsies as you might expect. The next track is recorded in the Punjab I think with Indian Musicians it sounds fantastic!

Afro Celts?

Subject: RE: Overlapping worlds
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:16 AM

And there are lots of ethnic groups that have their own music. They seldom show up at our "folk" festivals even though you can't deny that they're "folk" and they might live right next to us. I'm thinking of German polka bands, Swedish fiddlers and nyckelharpa players, Hmong qeej players, mariachi bands, etc. I have never heard Somali music, although Minnesota (where I live) has thousands of recent Somali immigrants.

When we think of "folk" we mainly think of the traditional music of English-speaking countries. If we're unusually broad-minded, we might consider other Europeans.

I guess I'm agitating for people who organize "folk" festivals to be a bit more broad-minded than they already are.

Subject: RE: Overlapping worlds
From: Leadfingers
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:27 AM

World music is a very good coverall for folk - The problem seems to be that World music does NOT include what most of US think of as Folk
Music .

Subject: RE: Overlapping worlds
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 09:48 AM

There is usually some international element in big UK festivals, the old style Sidmouth did and Chippenham have at least one team who live in the UK but display dances from their 'native' (what's the word I want, they may have been born here?) land.
Irish set dancing has been taken up by English dancers too. (Les, we sometimes dance it in Chorlton-cum-Hardy).
It came from France as quadrilles, evolved into English dances (Yorkshire square etc) American squares, and Irish sets, now we are learning each other's.
And the Irish bands that came to Manchester had been on an exchange with a mid- European band, some interesting tunes crept into their playing.

Subject: RE: Overlapping worlds
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:17 AM

(Les, we sometimes dance it in Chorlton-cum-Hardy).

Dancing what then Mo?

I think a good tune is a good tune and a bit or lot of cross fertilization is an excellent thing. The people who play in the Beach in Chorlton on a Monday play as good Irish music as you will hear but they draw in other people and other tunes in too.

I think two barriers exist to more swapping and mixing. One is a reluctance amongst most of us to go out and find other cultures. The second is that many of us, and I speak for myself here, don't have a deep enough grasp of music to make good sounds with musical cultures with which we are unfamiliar.

A point I failed to make earlier, although I guess most of you spotted it, was that the origin of Gypsy/Romani people was North India and they really do add something special to the Show of hands version of Seven Yellow Gypsies.

Subject: RE: Overlapping worlds
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 11:32 AM

We go to the Irish centre and dance Irish Set dances (not the same as River dance or ceili dance any more than barn dance or Playford dance is the same as Morris. Cross fertilization does exist, but then again communities with immigrant roots may see their dance and music as a way of keeping their identity not stirring it into a melting pot.

Subject: RE: Overlapping (folk) worlds
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 01:32 PM

I have seen Irish Set Dancing and greatly enjoyed it. I remember seeing some at Whitby one time and found it very dramatic.

I am sure your absolutley right about the identity thing and I respect that. But I also enjoy the Afro Celts and Edward the Second as they evolve. I saw either Bampton or Headington dance Shepherds Hey at Loughborough, it was quite dramatic - much more so than Cotswold often is. Later I saw Edward the Second at The Southern in Chorlton. I found it equaly dramatic to see and hear a six foot three black man sing Shepherds Hey to an accompanient of melodoens, brass and electric guitars.

All is possible if we are thoughtful and sensitive to what people hold dear.

Subject: RE: Overlapping (folk) worlds
From: johnross
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 01:43 PM

I have observed a similar pattern at American folk festivals, especially the Northwest Folklife Festival in Seattle. There are easily half a dozen different communities with only very light overlapping members. The contra dancers, the old-time fiddle folks and the group-singing enthusiasts (among others) seem to have their customary places and rituals.

This is not to say that any of these groups are closed to "outsiders" unless the outsiders are interfering with the group (such as an off-the-beat spoons player). They're usually happy to welcome a newcomer who has a new song or tune to share, if it's within the understood limits of the group's interest -- for an extreme example, if somebody moved into a fiddle session and knocked off a Bach sonata, they might get some funny looks.

Subject: RE: Overlapping (folk) worlds
From: GUEST,Scoville on Dad's computer
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 02:00 PM

I recently got myself a CD of Native American fiddle music that is WAY INTERESTING. Most of it is South American. I wouldn't say it's pleasant (sounds like homemade fiddles to me) but there are some tunes I'd like to learn for myself both on fiddle and on dulcimer. The last 1/3 is Canadian and borrowed heavily from UK traditions, but not played in quite the same style.

The CD is "Wood That Sings" from Smithsonian Folkways.

Subject: RE: Overlapping (folk) worlds
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 05:34 PM

More cross fertilization though, I remember a Chester festival years ago (could have been 1985) when a snippet of J. S. Bach found its way into one of Alistair Andersons sets.

Subject: RE: Overlapping (folk) worlds
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 10:00 PM

Les in Chorlton told us:

A point I failed to make earlier, although I guess most of you spotted it, was that the origin of Gypsy/Romani people was North India and they really do add something special to the Show of hands version of Seven Yellow Gypsies.

I can't forbear to tell you about an amazing experience I had.

In I think 2001 I attended the National Folk Festival, which was in Lansing, Michigan that year. My wife and I attended a feature called, as I recall, Improvisation. There was an oud player, an Indian snake charmer, and a Hungarian gypsy saxophonist. And I think there was one other musician, but I can't recall. None of these musicians had ever laid eyes on each other before they reported to that tent that afternoon.

Each of them was speaking (some through an interpreter) about the use they make of improvisation on basic themes. The Indian, through his interpreter, talked of the scales (really I guess modes) that his troupe used in India, and demonstrated. The gypsy saxophonist brightened up. "Hey," said he, "I know those scales! I was taught them in Hungary as a boy!" And he demonstrated his chops, based on a gypsy tune.

The upshot is that the Indian started a folk tune from his part of India, and before long the Hungarian gypsy saxophonist jumped in and started improvising around the Indian's playing. Then they switched, and the Indian was improvising on the saxophonist's tune, all in those Indian modes.   It was positively amazing, one of the most amazing things I ever saw/heard.

I wish I could re-experience that session. I went away absolutely dazzled.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Overlapping (folk) worlds
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 02:09 PM

Sounds amazing Dave O! I think it bares out the point I made above about the level of muicianship that these people had that many of us don't.

Subject: RE: Overlapping (folk) worlds
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 02:44 PM

Academia has taken over the folk-world. There are those who insist on a "correct" approach to folk music as if there were hard and fast rules. A study of comparitive musical styles reveal a lot about what is "correct" or not. For every traditionalist from a specific folk culture there are anomalies that don't fit in. It's like looking at anthropologic monographs and deciding that they are frozen in time and haven't been subjected to outside influences.

The compartmentalization of folk music is an academic construct and not entirely honest. There is no "purity" in folk music any more than there is racial purity. A knowledge of folk music styles is fine as long as it doesn't become a tablet "writ-in-stone". But there is a lot of artiface and sham in the folk music field by those claiming to know more than others about their respective musical styles. Generally, the people who emanate from a particular tradition of music based on a folk-culture are not aware of the academic aspects and see little difference between what they do and what others outside of that circle do. I think it's a healthy thing to mix up styles of dance and music although it doesn't hurt to discover musical and historical knowledge about these various forms of stylistic expression.

Emulation of a favorite musician or singer is a valid learning tool as an insight into folk music but at some point it becomes necessary to escape from the copy-cat prison and establish an original "voice". It sort of happens naturally because if you try to duplicate exactly what someone else does, it's a prescription for failure. It'll never happen. Even the best imitation will always sound like that...an imitation.

But trumped-up "authorities" abound in every field and their value is only as good as the information that they provide which is never totally accurate because folk music scholarship is not rocket science.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Overlapping (folk) worlds
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 03:00 PM

I feel sure you are right Frank. I guess most folkies would say you are. I think the problem is a bit like this: my 5 chords on the guitar won't be much use in another folk tradition if it is significantly different.

I have heard some Indian and some African tunes that sound a bit like jigs or reels but to join in with the chord progressions I have will almost certainly not work - not straight away anyway.

Brass Monkey have brought together different bits of English music but the level of musicianship is high and I don't see lots of BMs.