Is Creativity For The Young?

Subject: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:26 PM

Notice that this is a question. I think it is for many artists.. whether they be musicians, writers, poets or visual artists. I can give plenty of examples (and enough exceptions to make any generality meaningless.) I'm more interested in talking about why some artists peak so early, and then seem to lose that creative spark. So many great musicians like Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Little Richard, as well as some writers I can think of appear to run dry very early in their career. In popular music, where performers are disposable, it's not that surprising. I sometimes even wonder if people like Fats and Chuck are still producing good new songs, but they are never recorded..

For a starter, I wonder if some artists have a finite well of inspiration that they draw from, and when it is exhausted, their creativity dries up. There are also periods in our lives where creativity seems to flow unbidden. Much of that seems related to all the confusion and excitement of being young. I mean, it was great when Chuck Berry captured all the boredom and pent up energy of being a teenager in School Days. Could he wirite an equally exciting song about the frustration of trying to figure out the new Medicare prescription plan?

Just wondering..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:46 PM

Cripes chicky!!!!

He-l NO!

It has taken half a lifetime to learn the techniques (written, musical, artistic)and Good Lord willing, the fountain spewing from one half will flow as a silver-shimmer over the sludge-pond of the other.

It is my belief, that now and into the here-after we will create.

I rest my belief on scripture accepted by Muslem,Jew,Christian.

Aristotle might ask, "Why does man create?"
Scripture states, that in the beginning God created man in his own image.
It is innate to create, because man mirrors his Creator.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:52 PM

Jeez, Greg, for once we agree!

Jerry, think of all of the great artists who created in their very much later years, Michaelangelo, Grandma Moses, etc.

I think younger folks may spew it out more, in a kind of scattershot way, whereas someone with more life experience may be more thoughtful with their choice of words, music, etc. There is a different kind of passion when young that is so eager; but there is also passion with maturity which cannot be matched by youth, imo. I don't mean to denigrate the creativity of youth. Creativity is just different at different times in our lives.

kat

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:54 PM

Yes it is. And for the middle-aged and for the elderly.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:55 PM

Hey, Garg:

I agree that creativity is not limited to the young. I say that, even though there do seem to be some wonderful artists that only have one or two great works in their life. J.D. Salinger is a classic example as a writer. One thing I believe is that like everything else in life, creativity can mature. The creativity of a seventeen year old banging out a hit record, or novel like Carson McCullers (o.k., she really wans't 17 when she wrote The Heart Is A Lonely Hunter) can evolve into something less spontaneous, and more measured. Sometimes creativity can even be channeled into a different form of expression later in life..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 09:57 PM

Hey, Kat:

We seemed to be saying the same thing, typing messages at the same time. I do believe that there is a difference in creativity that may occur during a lifetime, that comes from a maturity that can only come through living.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 10:00 PM

If your question is "Are artists more creative when they are younger than when they are older?", I'd have to answer that it depends on the artist, and it depends on how one defines "creative".

With regard to your sentence- "I sometimes even wonder if people like Fats and Chuck are still producing good new songs, but they are never recorded.." that raises the important point that the powers that determine which songs are recorded may favor younger performers.

And speaking of younger artists, here's some quotes from the wikipedia entry on child prodigies:

"A child prodigy, or simply prodigy, is someone who is a master of one or more skills or arts at an early age. One generally accepted heuristic for identifying prodigies is the following: a prodigy is someone who, by the age of roughly 11, displays expert proficiency or a profound grasp of the fundamentals in a field usually only undertaken by adults...

...examples, such as Murray Gell-Mann or Pablo Picasso, suggest that it is possible for prodigies to have continued success well into old age. In cases like Zerah Colburn, William James Sidis, and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, history is colored by early achievement and promise of something greater, and tragic events of adulthood are particularly emphasized in historical or popular accounts...

A famous study by Lewis Terman indicates this, and although the participants were pre-selected to some extent, the results are true of the majority of individuals. The spectacular flameouts are held in the upper echelons of public awareness, but it should be emphasized that our history is filled with geniuses which have displayed phenomenal early talent. One must note that phenomenal early talent is de rigueur in classical musical performance, startlingly commonplace in the hard sciences and engineering, extremely well established in writing, journalism, debate, and law, and as is becoming increasingly clear as the internet opens up a showcase for blossoming talent, in artistic endeavours as well."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_prodigy

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 10:40 PM

Yes and no!

Bullheaded pushy testosterone and estrogen driven "creativity" is more often than not from the young. Creativity from those who are older is nuanced, and with more shades of gray! We older ones have lived long enough to recognize and value the lessons of history---our own history, and also the enlightening history of times far removed from our personal time line.

Art

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 06 - 10:53 PM

I think that the creative spark in the majority of people is driven by the same basic engine that is the source of their libido. This being the case, most people are more creative in their youth...but there are some notable exceptions here and there.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 12:44 AM

Mozart was a child prodigy, and yet, his better works were written nearer the end of his life. OK, so he died young but if you consider his first composition (Minuet & Trio for piano) at only 5 years old and his first symphony before he was 8, his working life covered a good 30 years, most of which was lived at a gallop!

I'm in the middle of rehearsals for a Missa Brevis he wrote when he was 19 or 20. Although he'd been composing for 15 years, and had 15 more to go, it's still very much a young composer showing off for his elders. Compare it with the security and grandeur of the Coronation Mass written just 4 years later, and it's obvious that he never stopped creating. When you put the Requiem into the mix, left unfinished at his death in 1791, you wonder what other sublime works this man could have come up with given the chance.

LTS

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 01:01 AM

I personally have had intermit/entwinment with three child prodigies, (One music, one art, one athletic)ALL were screwed up in the head with the onset of puberty (maybe the anchient catholic had an understanding.)

ANZIZI I keep connecting to your delighntful threads this evening.
Benjamine Bloom - wrote a good book, Developing Talent in Young People. "gifted or not" he follows young-folk careers and what led to their success.

Bettelheim's The Uses of Enchantment : The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales

is a classic, heavy-weight, collegate, level dissertation

Bloom for you to guide your children....Bettelheirm, to rhumacat on in private.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 01:18 AM

Ewan MacColl was firing on all cylinders right up to his death, as creative and bolshy as ever.

eric

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 01:30 AM

I prefer a soft cover Dr Spock to guide children.. soft cover doesn't leave such a red mark when you slap 'em round the head with it! : )

LTS (and yes, I'm taking the medication)!

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 01:54 AM

With regard to your sentence- "I sometimes even wonder if people like Fats and Chuck are still producing good new songs, but they are never recorded.." that raises the important point that the powers that determine which songs are recorded may favor younger performers.

This brings us back to how creativity is measured. How can the public judge how creative anyone is - is they are not exposed to it? The current the recording industry tends to have deals where they tie-up and effectively pressure creative performers and suck them dry.

They also drop the same artists when the sales of these products fall. Which they will - if the performer is being forced by contractual obligations to scrape together sub-standard new product.

Or when they go out of fashion and are not generally thought to be cool any more - by the fickle young who are just as likely to lose interests when the artist changes clothes or a hairstyle as they are with any musical change of direction.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 02:53 AM

The pressure of contractual obligations is nothing new.
Think of Bach with a new cantata to finish and rehearse each week.
His Mass in B minor and Art of Fugue were not early works. Wiki says "Although the mass was never performed during the composer's lifetime, it is considered to be among the greatest choral works of all time", so maybe writing works that are not heard by the public is nothing new either.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Grab
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 04:25 AM

Jerry, a quick check on Wikipedia says that "School Days" was on an album released in 1958. At that point, Chuck would have been 32.    Even if he wrote it earlier, his own school days were an awful long way behind him. His first record was produced in 1957, when he was 31, so we're not exactly talking Mozart-like levels of early achievement here.

The obvious talents of Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard, Buddy Holly and others notwithstanding, a lot of their records are very derivative "commercial" stuff, mass-produced and targetted squarely at the newly-emerged teen market, as demanded by the record labels selling their stuff. Any artistic value was strictly secondary.

But there definitely *is* a "second record syndrome". Take a band who've been performing for maybe 5 years and written a bunch of decent stuff in that time. Sign them, and cherry-pick the best songs for a record. Then they have to produce another record a year later - unless the band were previously constrained in their writing by having day jobs, you're likely to only get 20% of the quality of the first album, bcos there's only 20% of the time.

And day jobs are an issue in themselves. I guess you and Art can testify that you get more music done if 75% of your waking hours Monday-Friday aren't spent working and travelling to work. Once you've got a house, wife and kids, you simply can't take the risk of being unable to support them. If you're single though, there's no-one else depending on your income, so you can easily live in a squat or a camper-van or a teepee in a field somewhere whilst you play music. If you get successful at that stage, then great - you can keep it going for the rest of your life. But otherwise you're unlikely to have another opportunity to take that chance until the mortgage is paid off and the kids have left home.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 04:35 AM

Formal studies on creativity have identified only one common factor that separates the creative from the non-creative: that creative people believe they are creative. Age, sex, race, upbringing, social environment...nothing else seems to have as much bearing.

However, I can see that others may perceive one as "less creative" if they are familiar with his previous work, and this work has a distinctive "voice". Modern culture is enthralled with newness and youth rather than quality; with brashness and glitz rather than subtlety. At the same time, people are most comfortable with the familiar (and there is no greater conformity of tastes than among the "rebellious" youth.) So they create a Catch-22 for an artist: he must appear fresh and different while remaining comfortably familiar. Very soon, they want someone else...who sounds almost the same.

Consider Joni Mitchell: She has done exceptional work her entire life, in a wide range of styles. But as soon as she branched out from her early sound, she lost most of her audience. In my opinion, her last few albums eclipse all of her earlier ones (with the exception of "Court and Spark", already post-folk.) But if you ask people to name things she's written, most wouldn't know a single song that wasn't at least 20 years old. (Teen: "Joanie who?")

A musical artist is not allowed to work with the freedom of a graphic artist. Once he writes a song, he can't write another that is too close to it - it must either be a mere stylistic variation of the song, or a distinctly different song. A graphic artist can revisit the same style, theme, subject or even composition his entire life without automatically being accused of "growing stale" or "repeating himself". I even knew a potter who built his career on making white ceramic cows with purple spots, posed in various humanesque ways - this was considered a "signature" rather than "lack of creativity".

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Nick
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:19 AM

I picked up a Cream triple album at the library this week and my son and I were listening to it and comparing it with the live reunion concert from last year. To my ears Clapton was a much more exciting and inventive guitarist then than he is these days.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:37 AM

I find that in order to be creative - I have to have the time to let the old brain wander around a bit before setting about actually doing anything creative.

Most of us have too much to do in our daily lives to allow us much time just to be and see what develops. As we get older we possibly feel we have less time to do this.

Perhaps the young feel that they have all the time in the world to waste just lying in bed, daydreaming until lunchtime and that is why the young may appear to be so creative when they do eventually get out of bed?

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:47 AM

Good points from Codger, especially in relation to the problems of finding new songs! As an ageing creative I have to say that generally, creativity appears to peak at between 26 and 30 years of age. The trick then is to stay at that altitude. If you got there by writing twenty good songs a year you can eventually stay there by writing one or two. Your previous work and reputation is an upcurrent you can glide on, an occassional flap of the wings keeps you at that height.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 05:59 AM

Perhaps it is possible that sleeping until you are ready to wake up - rather than being disturbed and woken by alarms and demanding children - allows the sleeping process to fuel creativity with our properly processed dreams in the hours awake?

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 07:40 AM

Little Hawk: If creativity has a relationship to the sex drive, it is inverse; sexual fixation/frustration is more apt to dull the mind than to heighten its sensitivity - particularly toward anything of a non-sexual nature.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 07:54 AM

Unrestrained creativity is for the young, us older folks have to fit it in around the day job.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 08:11 AM

A lot of realllly interesting responses here. I'll toss in some different perspectives. I don't believe that creativity is only for the young, but in some ways, I think that "staying young" in mind and spirit is part of staying creative throughout your life. I've known people who were in their early 20's who seemed "old," and my Mother who is 99 seems "young" to me. Maybe "young" is a state of mind even more than a state of body. I think of being "young" as having an open mind, being inquisitive, being reflective, being able to empathize with others, being willing to take chances and to learn and try new things. There are many people who are young in age who have very few of these qualities, and some old folks who have them all.

As for being busy, or weighted down with work, mortgages, kids and the rest, I see being young as being "engaged" in life. There are probably more people who just settle in to a comfortable, slow-paced life when they are no longer working than those who find that stage in their life as more creative. Creativity is more often a response to the difficulties of life that it is a reaction to a peaceful one.

Plenty to think about in all of this.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 11:02 AM

Creativity is the symptom of young-spiritedness, independent of physical time cycles. The critical thing is that complete immersion in starting things which is often typical of the young because, well, they're young in their life. Being willing to re-generate the world newly is a power that comes to any being in the right frame of mind.

Kinda like -- you can ALWAYS get stopped for reckless driving even if you are driving an old car! :>)


A

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 11:06 AM

Or, Amos: as an old friend of mine liked to say "You're only young once, but you can be immature forever."

Jerry

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 11:41 AM

You create things because you need to.

When you don't have this need - you don't create things.


Do you have this need more when you are young?

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 01:52 PM

I've only just started writing and performing songs in the last couple of years. I am in my mid-50's.

I made a few abortive attempts in my youth but didn't manage to produce anything I was prepared to put my name to. I now feel I have the maturity to view my work in an objective fashion and hone both words and music until I get something I am pleased with rather than the corny efforts of earlier times.

It's never too late to start.


DC

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Scoville
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 02:14 PM

Amen, both Wandering Minstrel and Amos.

I knew a guy who designed a folding guitar when he was in his 80's. Built and played the thing, too. My great-grandmother and grandmother taught themselves to paint once they got all their kids out of the house and married off. I (at the grand old age of almost-29, but I'm definitely not a college kid any more) finally have the discipline and ear to attempt to learn to play the fiddle.

I think young people are mostly noisier about it. I think most people have more time, fewer obligations, and are still in the self-exploratory stage when they're young. When they're older, they have more ideas to work with and often have different interests, and probably don't need to do it as an attention-getting thing as much.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 03:45 PM

The mind doesn't invent only when it needs to, it is constantly and naturally creative.

The question is what you do with this natural creativity. Do you listen when those ideas pop into your head, or do you ignore them or instantly find fault with them. Do you write the "good" ones down? Most importantly, do you follow through with them?

We're really talking about two different things: the generative capacity, and follow-through. Necessity may focus creativity to an end, just as it can inhibit creative action in other areas.

Most of our work environments do have a negative effect on creativity: we pick up rather quickly that creativity is not really appreciated. Keep your head down and don't cause trouble. It is safer to shoot down the ideas of others than to pioneer new, vulnerable ideas yourself - and it makes you look "wiser". The more conservative an idea and the more it resembles the tried and true, the more likely it is to be accepted.

The flip side is that this inhibition at work can build a desire for creative outlets outside of work. A two-edged sword, like most external factors.

Two books on formal, pragmatic approaches to creativity that I've found very helpful are Thinkertoys by Michael Michalko and Six Thinking Hats by Edward de Bono. The first describes a plethora of techniques to apply for problem-solving and the generation of ideas. The second describes a way to separate the normally muddled, haphazard thinking process into six distinct modes, applying each in a more appropriate, evenly-weighted manner. If you consider "formal creativity" to be an oxymoron, well, your loss.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 04:00 PM

Fair point about EC Nick,but at the time there was hardly anybody to campare him to. Bear in mind I do say HARDLY antbody.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 04:45 PM

well.....there's GOOD 'creativity', where new, innovative and pleasing stuff is done..... then there's change and difference for the sake of doing something different. I guess it it still creative in one sense, but without balance and foresight.

And creativity varies in different fields. If you are making pottery, there are only so many ways to put a handle on a cup, and so many colors....but there ARE ways to blend shape, color and handle that makes it say something new....even if another potter is doing almost the same thing 500 miles away.

In music, I'm not sure how much more 'creativity' I can take.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 11:21 AM

If I'd have written this ten years earlier, I'd have gone immediately to the recording studio. But a lot had changed and I had no anxiety about that stuff anymore, didn't feel the urge and nessessity of it. I didn't feel like recording anyway. It was tedious and I didn't like the current sounds - mine or anyone else's. I didn't know why an old Alan Lomax field recording sounded better to me, but it did. I didn't think I could make a good record if I tried for a hundred years.
Bob Dylan: Chronicles volume 1.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 04:40 PM

When you're young, there aren't as many people telling you "You Can't Do That" or "That's not the Right Way to do that." Yes there are a few like parents and teachers, but not a huge number. So it's OK to make up new stuff.

As you age, you're exposed to more and more people saying "You Can't" or "That's Not Right", and you start believing them.

Most adults (and some kids)adopt the philosophy of "fit in with the crowd, don't rock the boat, do what's expected of you". Creativity has no place in that mindset.

Val

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 04:36 AM

well.....there's GOOD 'creativity', where new, innovative and pleasing stuff is done..... then there's change and difference for the sake of doing something different. I guess it it still creative in one sense, but without balance and foresight.

There is no such thing as good or bad creativity - just personal taste.

There is such a thing as reactionary judgement - dressed-up and pretending to be something more respectable. When it is just the usual blind prejudice against any change that may threaten one's comfort zone.

Subject: RE: Is Creativity For The Young?
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 06:55 AM

Part of the reason that sometimes young people seem more creative could be that they (a) have more time and (b) aren't afraid of taking risks. Older people tend to have more responsibilities (work, family etc.) and less time to spend on creative pursuits - unless they do them for a living, of course.

And young people are more likely to (e.g.) take up dangerous sports without considering the risks or consequences if they get injured - whereas older folk tend to be more aware of the risks and won't do these things so readily. Likewise older people are more likely to hone a song to the point where it never sees the light of day, perhaps being more aware they are reinventing the wheel, if the song covers ground already done elsewhere. Whereas a younger writer may just think "that's good" and put it out, often being unaware of any existing works that might be similar to theirs. This sometimes results in a good work of (almost) spontaneity and other times rubbish. But if the writer's prolific enough there will be anough good stuff to outweigh the dross.

But I think it's true that many musicians did produce their best stuff when younger and the later stuff would never have enabled them to become successful if they weren't already. I also thing the hunger for success has something to do with it - many successful, rich rock stars tend to produce mediocre stuff just to justify keeping going, and they've basically lost interest and are going through the motions. Of course that rarely applies to folk artists.

Apologies for rambling on again, and for probably repeating some of what's already been said.