Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir

Subject: Lyr Req: mit ganczen Willen wuensch ich dir
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:16 PM

I'm looking for the lyrics for this 15th century song by (Conrad) Konrad Paumann. I've done some searching, but to no avail.

If you know them, would you please post them?

The "c" in ganczen is archaic, and the words could occur as mit ganzen willen. That's what Google thinks, anyway.

Danke sehr!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 01:56 PM

That title is going to cause you trouble, leeneia, because there are so many spellings. You might try "Mit Gantzem Willem," which is the spelling in the Buxheimer Orgelbuch. "Mit Ganzem Willen" is probably the correct modern spelling. Haven't found lyrics yet, but lots of tune references - one MIDI here (click), and another here (click).
Also look here (click) for information.
-Joe-

---

There was a particularly good MIDI at this site:

http://www.karadar.com/Dictionary/paumann.html

-so I stole it and posted it for easier listening.

---

Click to play

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 09:52 AM

Yes, I know the spelling is not modern German. "Ganczen" is what I found when searching through Google.

Actually, we don't know whether the original was even German (Deutsch). In the 15th Century there could have been a Germanic language where "ganczen" was the standard spelling.

I see that some sources have ganczen and some have ganczem. Hmmm

Mostly I was hoping that someone Germany, Austria, or other German-speaking area would be familiar with the song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:31 AM

If it's really "Mit Gantzem Willem" as the Orgelbuch says, then it means "With all of William" or perhaps "With Every William" I believe that would make it Dutch.

I knew a guy named Willem once, that's how I know.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:01 AM

At first: There was no standard spelling in the German states until 1901 when the Federal Council made Konrad Duden's Orthographic Lexicon mandatory for the Reich. Austria and Switzerland followed.

I'm not familiar with the song, but I have it in my songbook collection. It is in the "Lochamer Liederbuch", or in High German: "Lochheimer Liederbuch", a ms. of the 15. century. In my edition the tenor is restituted, and the text transcribed in modern High German.
In the index list we find: Mit ganzem Willen wünsch ich dir, but the beginning of the text in the songbook is different:

Mit ganzem Willen dein ich bin,
Seit ich steh in den Diensten dein,
Und wenn es wär nach deinem Sinn,
So fügte ich mich freudig drein
In dein Gebot,
Frau, fein ohn Spott,
Dann blieb ich dein alleine,
Und wenn du willst, hilf mir aus Not,
Du allerliebstes Jüngferleine.

Wenn deine Güt das tät im Nu,
Wär bald mein Traurigsein zu End,
Es braucht kein andre Kunst dazu,
Damit ich Armer neu erständ. -
Ihr fraulich Sinn
Bringt mir Gewinn:
"Gesell, ich will's dir sagen,
Wenn du treu bist, ich treu dir bin,
Dann magst du's gut und kühnlich wagen."

The tune is in the Doric mode and not the one Leeneia gave in her link.
Rhyme scheme: a b, a b, c c, d c d
Tune scheme: 1 = a b (fake ending in the Ionic mode):| 2 = c c, 3 = d + 1 b, 2 = c c

Do all little women make such crazy proposals? I suspect she found the Orgelbuch in the internet, famous for its misspellings and printer's errors. Here it clearly must be "Willen" (dat. sg. of Willen = will).
A German lover desires his beloved with all his will, never with his William. Funny, really funny, indeed.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:27 PM

'With my whole willie I am yours' would be another nonstandard translation which you should quickly forget.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:09 PM

The Willem motif was introduced by the estimable Joe Offer himself, who just wrote. "You might try "Mit Gantzem Willem," which is the spelling in the Buxheimer Orgelbuch."

Actually, I just posted that silly post to keep this thread going until more people could see it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:33 PM

Danke sehr, Herr Schaum.

Some of the characters you entered at home didn't translate, I'm afraid. I suppose it's the umlauts - they appear as 1/4's, and there are A's with tildas on them. I don't think the Federal Council would approve of tildas auf Deutsch.

However, I can still understand the song despite that little problem.

It seems to me that the first verse could be a song to the Virgin Mary, "Frau, fein ohn Spott...wenn du willst, hilf mir aus Not." (Woman without blemish, if you will, help [save] me from suffering."

The second verse sounds more like an ordinary love song.

The words you have provided answer the question I had in mind. Aren't the MIDI's I hear on the Internet too fast and florid? I'm going to present the tune for my friends to do on recorders and we will try to recreate the spirit of the lyrics.

Hmmm - I'm beginning to wonder if the lyrics could ever have gone to the MIDI I've found. You intrigue me with that reference to a different tune in the Lochamer Liederbuch.

Also, when we do a piece, we like to know all we can about it.

-------
Wolfgang, that was naughty of you.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:27 AM

leeneia - go to the menu, click view, and chose Unicode. Then you will see characters unchanged.

Don't suspect Our Lady in every song where love is the theme. St Mary will help you with your tribulations, but for the native speaker here it is clearly worldly love; the wee virgin is asked to help him with the pressure of sexual desire. The answer is clear: be true to me, and I'll be true to you, and you can dare ...
In medieval courteous poetry we have the concept of "minne", love. The "high love" describes adoration without lower desires, and so it happens that some songs to St Mary are formed in the same way - not the other way round.

Wolfgang wasn't naughty, he only wrote what I forgot to do. When I wanted to add this pun, he was there before me.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:50 AM

In formal address, Wolfgang, it's a "William." Only intimate friends call it a "Willie"...
[grin]

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 10:15 AM

Thanks for the explanation about "minne" love. I've seen that kind of poetry before.

I'm going to see if my public library can lend me a copy of the Lochamer Liederbuch. In the meantime, this song is providing me a good piece to practice sixteenth notes on.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 12:12 PM

Several editions in the Libray of Congress.
Search the catalogue for Lochamer and Locheimer.

From one of the best German music publishers:

Type of Material:         Printed Music
Brief Description:         Lochamer Liederbuch.
        Das Lochamer-Liederbuch / Einfuuehrung und Bearbeitung der Melodien von Walter Salmen ; Einleitung und Bearbeitung der Texte von Christoph Petzsch.
        Wiesbaden : Breitkopf & Haertel, 1972.
        lxxiv p., 133 p. of music ; 26 cm.
        
CALL NUMBER:         M2 .D413 Bd. 2
Copy 1
-- Request in:         Performing Arts Reading Room (Madison, LM113)
-- Status:         Not Charged

small edition:

LC Control Number:          75764816
Type of Material:         Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
Brief Description:         Lochamer Liederbuch. [from old catalog]
        Das Lochamer-Liederbuch
        Kleine Ausg.
        Wiesbaden : Breitkopf & Haertel, 1973.
        xiv, 66 p. : fascim. ; 26 cm.
        
CALL NUMBER:         M1734.L78 L6
        Copy 1
-- Request in:         Performing Arts Reading Room (Madison, LM113)
-- Status:         Not Charged

from another trustworthy publisher:

LC Control Number:          75389611
Type of Material:         Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
Brief Description:         Lochamer Liederbuch.
        Das Locheimer Liederbuch nebst der Ars Organisandi von Conrad Paumann,
        Wiesbaden, M. Saendig [1969]
        iv, 234 p. facsims., music. 22 cm.
        
CALL NUMBER:         M2 .L77
        Copy 1
-- Request in:         Performing Arts Reading Room (Madison, LM113)        
-- Status:         Not Charged


I've dissolved the umlauts.
For practising demisemiquavers you've got the wrong music; it is set for the organ, I presume, but not for folk music.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:56 AM

Thank you for information from the Library of Congress. I will be able to use when when my public library says "Do what now?"

As for the setting, I have downloaded the piece into Noteworthy Composer and modified it. We all know what's happened here. The organist wants to show off his instrument and his skills, so he takes a known melody, plays it as fast aa he can, adds and subtracts incidentals, and tries in general to "knock their socks off."

So I downloaded the tune into Noteworthy Composer and undid such things until it sounded again like one human singing to another.

Some people would call that arrogance. I call it having fun.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:39 AM

Unfortunately a transport of the tune I've found failed. With more luck I'll inform you in due time where you can find it on my Mudcat page.

Sing and enjoy
Wilfried

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 05:14 AM

The tune as given in the Locheimer Liederbuch you'll find now on my page Signals, Mudcatters, For the Use of

Sing and enjoy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:03 PM

Thanks very much! It's true, the tune is quite different and much more singable.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: mit ganczen willen wuensch ich dir
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 08:17 AM

And here is the original text:
charset: Unicode (UTF-8)

1. Mit ganzem willen wünsch ich dir,
seind ich mich dir ergeben han.
wenn es geschech nach deiner begir,
will ich gewaltiglichen stan.
in deinem gepot, fraw fein, on spot
so beleib ich dein alleine,
und wenn du wilt, so hilf aus not,
du allerliebstes frewleine zart!

2. Darzu dörft ich kainer anderen kunst
zu mir armen mann, wes ich beginn

Sie mich erhört, ir weiplich begir
gesell darauf harr!
wann es get dir
wann trew und stet hie gefunden wirt.

3. Zart allerliebste fraw, darauf ich harr und paw
und auch dopei kein abelon.
Wolt es dein gnad erkennen nu --
wie pald mein trawren wer dohin!