Bluegrass music is for...???

Subject: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:59 AM

While I do believe folk revival music is music mostly for middle class intellectual types, I don't think it is true of traditional music.

I make distinctions between folk (which I perceive as a once largely dead, but recently & quickly revived music) and traditional music (which I perceive as a living music that hasn't died yet).

But what would that make bluegrass, then?

Also, while I agree that bluegrass has it's RECORDED origins in the Bill Monroe heyday, I don't know that I agree that bluegrass didn't exist before Bill Monroe came on the scene.

In fact, I rather doubt that it sprang fully formed into a couple guys brains in the post-WWII era.

Let's face it, American popular music of the era preceding & during the war wasn't much focused upon rural music traditions! That doesn't mean there weren't Foggy Mountain Boy-type bands playing for some unknown time before they started to be recorded by the big labels and got played on radio.

It was kind of a radical new style for a lot of folks, probably. I'm guessing.

But that wild abandon so common in the Flatts/Scruggs sounds must have been sorta like the rockabilly of the day--kind of shocking to the old timers?

Dunno. What do others think?

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:07 PM

I personally consider Bluegrass music a form of Folk music that had its origins in the south. Doc Watson is the type of performer with one foot in each camp that would probably bridge the gap. I frequently attend both, Folk and Bluegrass festivals throughout the Summer. To me the biggest difference is the audiences that they attract. Folk music enthusiasts tend to be more liberal and leftward leaning in their politics, as are most of the people here on Mudcat. The Bluegrass audiences on the other hand are more Redneck conservative folks who support George W. to the hilt, and will even proudly display the Confederate flag.

                                              SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:12 PM

Bluegrass occurred because Bill Monroe (primarily) was looking for a road to commercial success. It certainly had precursors, but it certainly didn't start out as a gradually evolving "folk" idiom.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:27 PM

So Sol, do you live in and attend festivals and jams in the south? I'm curious because I live in the north, and so the audience here (Pacific Northwest) is different than the one you are describing.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:45 PM

If I'm recalling my PBS-special-taught History correctly, the term "Bluegrass Music" did not exist until after some guy (was it Monroe?) formed the "Bluegrass Mountain Boys" (or something like that). When some of that band wanted to split off but continuing doing similar style music, they said they did music "like the Bluegrass Boys", which eventually devolved to the term "Bluegrass music".

It was a unique enough style that it was identifiable just by referencing that first band who innovated it to begin with.

So Bluegrass as a style began in about the 1st half of the 20th century - and did not exist previous to that one band. Certainly the tunes and the playing style of the Bluegrass Boys had precedents - everybody copies someone to one extent or another, and messes with it to try & make something unique. But 'tweren't Bluegrass music 'til Monroe (or whoever) called it that!

I'm sure there are others on-list who have a more solid grasp of this ancient history who will correct the myriad details that I have mis-reported.

Val

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Scoville
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:02 PM

Yes, it originated with Bill Monroe. No, it did not spring fully-formed from vapor and fairy-dust.

The audience here in Texas is mixed and covers the whole spectrum. A lot of them are dyed-in-the-wool Bible-beating conservatives and almost as many of them are hippies/former hippies (or that weird phenomenon of the redneck-hippie, but I'm not sure if that's just a Texas thing or if it's universal).

One of the festivals here used to give out citations for "bluegrass infractions". I was wearing boots and jeans so I didn't get one for improper attire, and I was observed using a flat-pick so I didn't get nailed for fingerstyle guitar, but I got busted for smiling while listening to the music. Oops. I think that one's pretty minor, though.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:01 PM

Guest,
         I live in the North and all the festivals that I have attended were either in Connecticut, New York State, Pennsylvania, or New Jersey. You do get a group called the Grillbillies who come from the South and travel around in RVs to specificly attend all these festivals. However the majority of the people in attendance are locals and the vehicles displaying the Confederate flag all have license plates from north of the Mason Dixon Line.

                                           SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:36 PM

Re Dick's posting above:
If it was a group other than Monroe's that became the most commercially successful then it's almost certain that we wouldn't have a genre called Bluegrass. However I believe that we would still have the same broadly similar musical style as played by the Stanley Brothers and countless others and which I don't think you can say did not evolve from what we have come to call the folk idiom. I guess we would call it something like Acoustic Country.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:44 PM

No music is "for" a certain type. People are still free to like what they like. They are also free to enjoy a kind of music one hour and not want to hear it at another hour.   Happens all the time!

Guest reminds me of the Red Queen, who said, "Be what you seem to be." Life is easier for authority figures (and marketers) that way.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:50 PM

Well, there are popular labels for music, and then there is the music.

I was speaking of the music, not the label 'bluegrass' to describe it as it was popularized by Bill Monroe.

Not that I have anything against Bill Monroe--I love his stuff.

I always thought that the term 'bluegrass' was one of those things where the music was named after the populizing influence.

The music "origins" of the genre have alwasys seemed a bit more mysterious to me, though.

Sol, I guess I'm surprised to hear that about the people who attend bluegrass festivals where you reside. I've been to a few festivals out that way, and hadn't encountered those folks as a 'vast majority' of people attending the festivals. The audiences at festivals I've attended have included a bigger cross-section of people that do include fans such as those you describe. But I would never describe the audience the way you have. Are you saying that only one type of politically conservative performer and audience shows up at festivals you attend in the northeast?

My experiences there has included a broader spectrum from the conservative members you describe to the more progressive audiences, especially among the younger set.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:58 PM

Or are you referring to this sort of bluegrass stereotyping?

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:44 PM

Bluegrass music is for...???

Speed freaks, that's who!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Mark Clark
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 01:46 AM

GUEST, et al., This subject is always interesting to me since I've played and studied bluegrass music for more than forty years now. Many people offer opinions that bluegrass music was around or at least developing prior to Bill Monroe's Blue Grass Boys of 1946 - 1948. This point of view often seems logical until one consults the large body of academic research on the origins of bluegrass music. Scholars agree that what we call bluegrass music began at the end of 1945 with Bill Monroe, Lester Flatt, Chubby Wise, Earl Scruggs and Howard Watts. Scholars also point to September 17, 1946, in Chicago, as the first commercial recording of a bluegrass song.

I don't mean to claim that scholars are infalable or that opposing views are automatically invalid but I think any opposing opinion needs a significant body of research accompanying it in order to be taken seriously.

There is an interesting Mudcat thread called Genealogy of Bluegrass and some related threads where we've talked about the orgins of bluegrass music and what generally defines the idiom. The comments there are only opinions but may help to shed some light on the issue.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 12:19 PM

Lomax used to refer to Bluegrass a "folk music in overdrive". Others, less impressed, just referred to it as "folk pollution".

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: open mike
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 02:32 PM

listen for yourself..
the largest and perhaps
longest-running blusegrass
fest. on the west coast is
in progress this weekend
and every fathers day weekend
for the last 31 years.

it can be heard on www.kvmr.org

june 16-17-18 2006

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 02:34 PM

who put lyrical content last.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:04 PM

"Lyrical content last:" not true, especially in the subgenre "gospel bluegrass". Also bluegrass lyrics often show a good sense of humor, as in "Pa Fell Asleep and the Hogs Et Him"--probably not meant to be taken deadly seriously.

Bluegrass lyrics are far preferable to those of many a singer-songwhiner at an open mike. WMMV.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:15 PM

I'm not comparing them with bad singer/songwriters, just with the best of them. Country lyrics in general are poor, but Bluegrass lyrics, particularly those with a religious bent make me cringe.
Love the music though, best pickers in the world.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:19 PM

"Country lyrics are poor"--again a matter of taste. Sometimes simpler is better. If religious lyrics make you cringe, good thing you don't know what the Mozart Requiem, etc is about.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:21 PM

Not to mention black gospel--which I would think you would admit is good music.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:32 PM

Music, yes, lyrics no. As a non-believer I dislike like the propaganda. As believers do when the process is reversed.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 11:12 PM

While we are on this subject, I will be attending the Pocono Mountain Bluegrass Festival in Newfoundland, PA., tomorrow. One of my favorite bands, Danny Paisley (Chuck's son) and The Southern Grass will be headlining the show.

                                           SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 08:22 AM

Hi Mark,

I appreciate your input. Yes, the scholars have put the point on "the birth of bluegrass" quite precisely, haven't they?

Problem is, scholars only make such proclamations based upon recorded evidence--in this case music recordings.

It isn't so simple though, when you are talking about music that was being played, but not recorded. Especially during Great Depressions and world war.

But I'm not going to be the one to research that aspect of bluegrass. I just find it curious that everyone is so quick to assume that just because there is very good research by academics on a subject, that somehow means we have 'a whole truth' about a thing. That is never the case with academic research, but it does speak volumes as to why so many baby boomers think 'experts' have all the answers, and we can't legitimately challenge them and their results.

I have always found it interesting that bluegrass is one of the most important musical developments in the US to emerge from that era, yet we don't tend to look at why that particular music offshoot took off and captured the musical imaginations of so many Americans who had lived through the Great Depression and the war. I'm far more interested in that aspect of the music than it's 'origins', which I really don't care much about at all.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 08:29 AM

Tony Rice.

sIx

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:20 AM

A little tolerance for "religious propaganda" in music is not a bad thing. If I had to believe everything I sang, I couldn't sing most-- glorious--classical choral music--which is primarily religious, and has been so for centuries.

Similarly, one the best and most enthusiastic exponents of gospel music in our area was Helen Schneyer--definitely Jewish.

Good music can--and does--transcend categories and the backgrounds of the singers.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST,Paul Castle
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:40 PM

Guest wrote:

>I have always found it interesting that bluegrass is one of the most
>important musical developments in the US to emerge from that era,
>yet we don't tend to look at why that particular music offshoot took
>off and captured the musical imaginations of so many Americans who
>had lived through the Great Depression and the war. I'm far more
>interested in that aspect of the music than it's 'origins', which I
>really don't care much about at all.

Thanks for a really interesting thread, Guest.

This article in The Washington Post a while back highlights the major
influence Louise Scruggs, Earl's show booker, business manager and
wife (for 58 years now) has had on the popularity of the genre -
although, interestingly, she always avoided calling it 'bluegrass'.

>> It was Louise who played the crucial role in seeing that Earl's
music reached wider and wider audiences. She wasn't satisfied
with the typical gig in the early days (maybe a one-night stand at
a drive-in movie theater). She pushed until Flatt & Scruggs had
a weekly television show featuring their own music and such
guests as Mother Maybelle Carter and a 7-year-old Ricky Skaggs;
toured university campuses and the Newport Folk Festival; and
contributed to the prime-time comedy of "The Beverly Hillbillies"
and the soundtrack of "Bonnie and Clyde." Most of those settings
were groundbreaking for country music of any stripe, let alone for
its tradition-minded bluegrass wing. >snip>

One of Louise's early insights, long before terms like "branding"
were being bandied about in the music business, was the importance
of positioning the act for broadest impact and growing respect.

"I always called it country; never anything else," Louise explains,
"because if you put things in a corner, you sometimes can't get
out of it. And you couldn't get a bluegrass record programmed
on the radio. By the '60s, they had signs up in radio stations that
said, 'No bluegrass allowed!' " >>

Paul Castle
The Rosinators

broadband / dial-up

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: folkwaller
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 02:55 PM

Mix Snuffy Jenkins with some gospel add a few competant musicians whisk with Mrs Progress and you have Monroe and Scruggs. Superb.
You people across the pond deserve medals for the recipe. Maybe not from the beginning of time, try the Lilly Brothers & Don Stover. I think they have a lot to say. Keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 03:12 PM

Neat site that I'm sure y'all are aware of but just in case y'ain't.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:56 PM

GUEST,

Your points are well taken. And I think Elijah Wald showed us, in Escaping the Delta, how the recording industry and academia have often distorted our understanding of our musical heritage.

It's odd that serious scholars haven't yet taken an opposing view and done the needed research. Maybe one day.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 10:54 AM

...moving on down the road. If I'm up early and driving to some fishing location I put on some hot BG recording and it gets the day off to a roaring start.
Good point, Ron Davies, about "A little tolerance for "religious propaganda" not being such a bad thing." While I'm not a christian I am inspired by the words of and performances of so many great gospel songs that have been done by Bluegrass ensembles like, Bright Morning Stars, Working on a Building, Down to the Valley to Pray, I'll Fly Away and so many others. And I couldn't see ignoring the Cambridge Singers and some of the fine local choirs here because of the message. So much of it is just beautiful, inspirational music. vl

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:17 AM

Many bluegrass festivals in the south solve the "problem" of mixed audiences by having their events alcohol, drug and even pet free. They headline Gospel Bluegrass groups, have "family oriented" entertainers, fiddle contests and strict camping rules.

I attended a bluegrass festival in New Hampshire once, where you got stoned just sitting near the "fog" from the camp ground. Every band sang a version of Panama Red. I didn't see a Confederate flag - but I did pass a gaunlet of reefer and other vendors on my way to the stage!

Different strokes!

... now for Confederate flags?? As a former Yankee now living in Texas and performing throughout the South; I no more expect to see a gathering of people at a festival without a Confederate flag then I expect to attend a Scottish Festival and not see a kilt. The battle flag is as common and accepeted a symbol of southern heritage as is the shamrock or the kilt.

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: BTMP
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 01:14 PM

Jed, I certainly echo your comments. I haved lived both in the North and South, and play both folk and bluegrass music. The Confederate battle flag is not a symbol used exclusively by neo-nazi skinheads, but is highly respected by Southerners for what it is - a symbol of Southern heritage and pride, like Bluegrass. Most of the Bluegrass people I know are hard working everyday Americans, and I resent any characterizations otherwise.

Bluegrass music has been flavored by other ethnic peoples, mostly Irish and Scot, but I would say Bluegrass music is one of the purest forms of American folk expression. -btmp

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:13 PM

I attended the Pocono Mountains Bluegrass Festival in Newfoundland, PA yesterday. There was a new band from Oklahoma playing this year that was simply terriffic and just blew everybody away. They are called THIRD GENERATION. I strongly recommend that if they are appearing in your area you make an extra effort to hear them. I guarantee you will not be dissapointed. They are that good.

p.s. There was only one Confederate flag on display at the festival and was for sale by a vendor with Pennsylvania plate on his trailer.
My driver, who happens to be African American, offered to buy it which simply blew the vendor's mind.

                                              SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:13 PM

...is for...anyone who wants to watch lightning fast flatpickers; humongous sounding dreads--mostly Martin, Collings and custom. For anyone looking for the absolute cream d'el a cream of banjo pickers; for those who want fiddling that puts "the Devil Went Down to Georgia" into the "you must be KIDDING me" category. For anyone who wants to attend a family and generationally kind and friendly fest; for anyone who respects teen-age virtuosos blow us old guys off the stage; for anyone who loves Gospel, traditional and even inventive (as in jazz or classical) music. For anyone who wants to seriously see the capabilities of guitar, mando and banjo. For anyone who appreciates 4 and 5 part harmonies; for anyone who enjoys looking at "grail" acoustic guitars, banjos and mandolins; for anyone who enjoys talking with, and getting TIPS from the nationally known bluegrass headliners--who treat you like you've been a long, lost friend; for anyone who enjoys a park full of folks, who--if you leave your chairs and programs out when you leave for two hours, will have moved them for you out of the rain; for anyone who enjoys trusting a group of "strangers" to treat you kindly, not steal or rip you off--but actually protect your "stuff" when you go out for supper for 90 minutes; for anyone who likes average, hard-working folks who LOVE music; for anyone who wants to see the milk of human kindness; for anyone who EVER wanted to play a pre-war Martin, a Gibson classic banjo, a Loar mando--which will be handed over to you to try by the virtuoso who just got off stage; for anyone who likes making short-term friends who share your passion; for anyone looking to get a coupla days of cheap food, slushes, home-made lemonade (and they put the lemon in your cup that they squeezes in front of you; for anyone who celebrates the human spirit, faith, hope and love. For anyone....

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:22 PM

AMEN, BROTHER or SISTER

                                  SOL

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:50 PM

Bluegrass is a very nice thing that you've done with our Irish and Scottish music.
Thank you.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Bluegrass music is for...???
From: GUEST,Towncrier
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:27 AM

Getting wound up for the TOTTENHAM BLUEGRASS FESTIVAL starting Friday

Two and a half days of wild picking just north of Toooronto Ontario Canada