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Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!

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Subject: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:57 AM

For the first time in yonks I tuned into the Mike Harding show the other night and heard this song by Show of Hands, from their new album Witness.

I was blown away! I went straight onto iTunes and downloaded it from the store. A new manifesto for a nation that's lost it's own culture and needs to claw it back. An ideal companion to Maggie Holland's A Place Called England.

I'd love to see the lyrics, but can't find them on the web site.

Anyone else heard it?

stigWeard


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:59 AM

I forgot to mention - the track features Kim 'Wouldn't know culture if it ran over him' Howells comments on 3 folk singers in a Somerset pub.

Ha!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:08 PM

Oh STIG! I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

'Roots' should be our new National Anthem!! It is the most wonderful song! And...here it is!

http://www.myspace.com/showofhandsuk

And this is the thread from the BBC Folk and Acoustic board:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825?thread=2495746


Lizzie :0)


PS....Are you going to see them at The Royal Albert Hall next Easter?


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Subject: Lyr Add: ROOTS (Steve Knightley)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 01:02 PM

Because I love you Stig! ;0)

'Roots' by Steve Knightley

"After the speeches when the cake's been cut
The disco's over and the bar is shut
Funeral, wedding, birthday, wake
What can we sing until the morning breaks?

But Indian, Asian, Afro-Celt
It's in the blood, below the belt
Singing and dancing all night long
What have they got right that we've got wrong.

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, roots
They need roots.

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
On the rocky shores of England

And the Minister says his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl
Pubs where no one ever sings at all

And everyone is staring at a TV screen
Overpaid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estury English, Baseball cap

We learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where we came from?

Take St. George and the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, roots
They need roots

And haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
On the rocky shores of England"



Hope the lines come out spaced properly. Fingers crossed and I'm pressing 'submit' right...now!


Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:01 PM

It's a good 'ne.

I like the idea of many union jacks. One based on Rastefarian colours - Rasta Jack, another with shades of green - Eco Jack, one in shades of sky blue - Man City Jack.

What colours are your jack Jackqueline and Jack?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:36 PM

You could start your new flag design whilst listening to these great guys Les!

Paddy Rasta: (Celtic Reggae)

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=44849265


And this of course is the site of those West Country Wandering Minstrels:

http://www.showofhands.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Cllr
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:45 PM

oh thats truly marvelous Im going out to buy the album next time i get the chance Clr


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 01:53 AM

Lizzie, absolutley brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Grab
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 08:06 AM

Very good. Steve Knightley does seem to produce a few average songs each album - but when he gets it right (like "Galway Farmer") then it's something special.

The title song "Country Life" off their last album was equally heartfelt - that's another album worth having.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Mandy Chello
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 10:15 AM

thanks ..

I was so impressed by those audio sample tracks
I went to ebay to find the cd..

maybe not released yet ?

so i took a risk on a cheap "buy it now" double CD live album

titled "Rush"


looking forward to hearing it


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 03:55 PM

I'm in two minds about it, really. Musically, it's a little too rocky for my taste, but the lyrics and sentiments are spot on.

I have bought it though for solidarity purposes!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:30 PM

On this link to the BBC Music Club board you can listen to some links to Steve's interview on Radio 4 last Monday, but they'll disappear after this week. Message 2 from Keith.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3146306

The interview is taking place on Farming Today and another programme, as 'Country Life' has been used as the soundtrack to a new film about er..country life! This was shown to our all wondrous MP's last Monday....you know...those great guys who care so passionately about us all and our countryside! ;0)

Details are in the thread, links to articles too.

And you'll see there the usual rubbish about me daring to write about Show of Hands on a BBC board where it actually says that you can write about music that you are 'passionate' about! Well...I did...and they hanging, drawing and quatering me....as always.

However, I was able to start threads on Richard Thompson and Yusuf Islam?Cat Stevens and no one batted an eye lid. I started one on The Oysterband as well, no-one passed any comment, but it was later mysteriously removed!

Why do you keep coming up against such outrage over Show of Hands? Part of me thinks it's wonderful mind! To be able to enrage people like that, merely at the mention of their name...well..it says that they are daring to touch more than a few consciences and getting it right!

Well, I'm off to tell them all about someone else now....Oh...and if anyone feels like visiting the new Radio 2 (er...fun) Music Club and going on the Show of Hands thread, which now has no title or first post from me as the ********'s got it taken off...please feel free! ;0) And I started it because Johnnie Walker has now played two of their songs over the last few weeks and is starting to rave about them a bit...he'll soon be like the rest of us, no worries! ;0)

Mind you...I'm already on Pre-Mod over there, which means that every word I write is checked and re-checked before it's allowed on....and then...they remove it!!

Oh...the trials of a Show of Hands fan! ;0)


Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:39 PM

Hi Mandy Cello (great name!) ;0)

'Witness' their new CD is out on general release now. You can definitely buy it from their main website and it should be in record shops too. Not sure about e bay, but Amazon have definitely got it:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000FG635K/qid%3D1150576413/202-3107779-7301430

I think you'll find that the 'Rush' CD is not from Steve Knightley and Phil Beer. There's a US band called Rush who have released a CD entitled 'A Show Of Hands'

I can see why confusion has occurred though. Hope this helps.


Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:25 PM

I've just noticed the first verse was omitted from lyrics Lizzie posted above. The downloaded version of the song starts:

Now it's been twenty-five years or more
I've roamed this land from shore to shore
From Tyne to Tamar, Severn to Thames
From Moor to Vale from Peak to Fen
Played in cafes and pubs and bars
I've stood in the street with my old guitar
But I'd be richer than all the rest
If I had a pound for each request
For "Duelling Banjos", "American Pie"
It's enough to make you cry
"Rule Britannia" or "Swing low",
Are they the only songs the English know?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:29 PM

Oh my Lordy! HOW embarrassing is that???

I've just failed my Show of Hands 'A' Level!

I shall *never* live that one down DMcG. ;0)

Thanks for putting it in.


Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 07:17 PM

Even I know that's the first verse of the tedious Roots. I think LC didn't like to mention it on the grounds that she once said she like American Pie and that's surely very difficult to live down. I find it great fun to mark karaoke contestants on whether they get the tune right on the line Took my chevvy to the levee but the levee was dry. Current score is approximately 0.5%.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 03:49 AM

Countess Diane, I am shocked!.....Though not the least bit surprised when I come to think on it.

This unfathomable Anti-Show of Hands Campaign, that has gone on for years across many boards, is *finally* starting to make sense!!

"..And the Minister says his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl
Pubs where no one ever sings at all..."

YOU, of ALL people, go to pubs where they have KARAOKE?????????

You're Kim Howells aren't you! Oh! WHY haven't I realised that before!

You actually sit around in pubs enjoying giving people marks out of 1 for singing American Pie????????

Hells Bells!

"Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
On the rocky shores of England"




Lizzie ;0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Cllr
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:37 AM

I think some of the finest contemparay folks songs have anger and passion in them my favourites being from the likes of Jon Heslop with "cheap boats" and Robb Johnson's "boxing day". "Country life" was indeed a classic and my utter disbelief at Howells comments is finaly rewarded with a song worth the measure.
Thanks to lizzie for bringing this up because while im sure i would have got round to it Im glad to have found it a bit quicker! Cllr


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 12:44 PM

That's OK Cllr, although in fairness I didn't start this thread. All thanks *should* go to Stig for that one.


Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Cllr
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 01:05 PM

Of course. You are right, my thanks go to stig then 8-)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: rhyzla
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 01:27 PM

'Witness' is, in my thoughts, SOH's best album to date and Roots is probably amongst the best 4 or 5 songs on it - I'd recommend anyone to get to hear some of it, and then buy/download.

try seeing them live too - top performers, again in my opinion!

Barry


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:17 PM

I'd agree with you there Barry. I love the addition of that Afro-Celt sound on some of the tracks...and here is a link to those Afro-Celts too, just in case anyone would like to hear more of Simon Emmerson:

http://www.myspace.com/afrocelts


:0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:41 AM

This is a great review of 'Witness' from the free HMV magazine!


"HMVChoice June/July Issue : Witness

English folk favourites team up with Afro-Celts in winning style.


Without a single flashbulb of mainstream exposure, the folk duo of Steve Knightley and Phil Beer have built a large and dedicated fan base simply by playing every folk club and festival in the land and delivering English roots music of the highest quality. Incredibly, theyve sold out the Albert Hall twice and yet they remain criminally ignored by all but the specialist folk media. Perhaps Witness is the album finally to change all that and deliver them the wider recognition they richly deserve.

With a sparkling, technicolour production by Simon Emmerson and Simon Mass Massey of the Grammywinning Afro-Celt Sound System, theyve gone and made their most innovative studio album to date. Knightleys highly literate, original songs and acoustic guitar are expertly embellished by Beers multiinstrumental skills on fiddle, mandolin and melodeon, while folk wonderkidof- the-moment (and fellow Devon resident) Seth Lakeman helps out on guitar and backing vocals. But its the subtle but dynamic drum programming from those Afro-Celt boys that marks this out as a landmark album. - Nigel Williamson"


Not bad eh!

Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:52 AM

The lyrics to that song are bloody good.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Cllr
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 05:35 PM

I used to play "afro celt sound system's album (whiryigig) alongside SoH, back when I had a student radio show back in 94 -98 It must have finally rubbed off 8-) Cllr

along side Pressgang, martin carthy, robb johnson, Oysterband and shooglenifty and many others


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:03 PM

OOH...Did someone mention those Afro Celts?????

http://www.myspace.com/afrocelts

:0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:25 PM

I agree - Steve Knightley has become just about my favourite songwriter. Country Life, Roots and the older Cold Heart of England are all classics in similar vein, decrying the state of our country and tackling issues that affect us today in Britain; something no-one else seems to be doing in song. And of course Phil Beer shouldn't be overlooked - great musician and performer too.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Fiona
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:10 AM

Zipping my Afrocelt anorak up to the neck and putting up the hood, I'd like to point out that Simon & Mass are part of the band, but not the whole.

HMV have got their research wrong too, the Afrocelts have never won a Grammy (though IMO they should have). Simon was a nominee for his work as a producer with Baaba Maal on 'Firin in Fouta' (sp?) but they didn't win. This album was the seed of the Afrocelt idea, shortly after Simon was working with Davey Spillane and with some input from the agitprop artist Jamie Reid and the folks he'd met on his travels with Baaba Maal, the idea of the Afro Celt Sound System was born.

One member of the band who DID play on the new SOH album but never seems to be mentioned, is Johnny Kalsi, also of the Dhol FOundation. He plays the tablas on 'If I Needed Someone' and is certainly a major contributer to Mass' huge collection of drum samples, with Dhol, tabla and his famous Kalsi Kit (a kind of Heath Robinson affair of allsorts of percussion on scaffolding).

As for the song 'Roots' I'm afraid I don't like it at all, it seems needlessly jingoistic (is that a word?) to me and the chorus doesn't seem to go with the verses. The Union flag (not jack btw) is the national flag of the UK of GB not England. And I like 'Duelling Banjoes' anyway, so there.

But I haven't just joined this thread to plug my favourite band, there is some indication (ok idle gossip and speculative rumour) that 'Roots' will be the last song on Simon Emmersons next project 'The Imagined Village'. This project is a trip through English folk, the only song I've heard so far is Martin Carthy/Paul Wellers 'John Barleycorn' in a thread on the fRoots board Ian Anderson (who heard the finished tapes) mentions PJ Harvey & the Copper Family, also the poet Benjamin Zephania. Maybe the 'Roots' song will make more sense as part of the whole, I hae ma doots though.

BTW Cllr, 'Whirl-Y-Reel' is from the Afrocelts first album 'Sound Magic', two mixes, 'Folk Police' and 'Beard & Sandals' a third, 'Whirly #3' is on Pod. It's one of my all time favourites, Shooglenifty also guest on the tune. ACSS have some wonderful guests on their albums too, Davey Spillane plays pipes on that one.

Lizzie your new favourite Ayub Ogada is another of their guests on 'Sound Magic', he accompanies Iarla O'Lionard on vocals on 'House of the Ancestors' and plays nyatti (?). He features on 'Seed' too in the wonderful 'Ayubs Song/As You Will' a set of tunes which also has Martin Hayes on fiddle. It's that good, Mike Harding even played it on his show!

fx (too hot in anorak)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 09:33 AM

Fiona,

the actual line in the lyric book in Witness is

"I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back"

I think that brings more sense of "Englishness" to the song.

I suspect you read an early (erroneous) transcription from one of Mr Knightley's disciples.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Fiona
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 09:43 AM

Thank you Liam, the wrong transcription has been posted for ages, it makes much more sense your way!

He is still wrong about the 'jack' though, my granda was very scathing about that one and also folk who flew it upside down! I still think the songs rubbish though.

Funnily enough I like the 'Falmouth Packet', good tune, very afrocelty, but I liked phil Beers 'Ryhthm Methodist' too.

fx


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 10:04 AM

I thought you might like Falmouth Packet. It's very jolly and a good entertaining song...whereas 'Roots' of course is far deeper, that's why it means so much to so many people.

Thanks Liam. I got my original version of Steve's lyrics from someone else. And then when I got 'Witness' for my birthday we went to Dunster Castle for the day, took the CD with us...and when I got home I had the case...and the CD...but I'd lost the booklet with all the CD info and lyrics in! Grrrrrrrrrrr!

Somewhere in Dunster.........

"I've lost St. George from my CD rack
It's my booklet ooh! and I want it back"



I don't think they have an 'official' Show of Hands lyrics page on their site, although there is of course the Steve Knightley Songbook (both books in one now I think).....but 'Roots' is way too new to be in there.

It would be great if Show of Hands posted their lyrics up like George Papavgeris does on his site..and then all the correct words would be there for everyone to see anytime....and also to link straight into as well on various sites.

Glad to see the correct version. Amazing what a difference an 'in' and an 'and' can make isn't it? Because that sentence now is suddenly SO much more powerful.

EXCELLENT!!

Heck! I was thrilled with the words before....but now....I'm over the moon!!

"I've lost St. George IN the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back!"

Oh YES!!! I'll be singing that at the top of my voice at Abbotsbury!

Apologies to Steve Knightley for that Dingbat of an Error! ;0)



Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 10:52 AM

The lyrics for "Roots" are up on their MySpace page. Hit the button marked "Lyrics" on the player.

http://www.myspace.com/showofhandsuk


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 11:06 AM

Oh...This gets better every minute!


http://www.myspace.com/showofhandsuk


What shall I wish for next?

I know! I wish that Show of Hands music was being played on every single Radio 1 and 2 progamme every single day!

There...that oughta do it! ;0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Cllr
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 06:57 PM

Thanks for that Fiona, of course you are right and as for shooglenifty i was playing stuff from i think Venus in tweeds, title track love dancing to there stuff Cllr


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 04:17 AM

Now *that's* what happens when you've been starved of Show of Hands!

So QUICK!!!!! Get 'Witness' out and put it on at full volume! ;0)


It's thundering down here in Sidmouth today, just starting to pour as well, a typical sort of Abbotsbury Day really (only SIX days to go!)......Still, once the lightning stops I can put my Show of Hands umbrella up and dance down the street. (I love it when it rains!) ;0)

And now.....*back* to discussion of the lads and their songs.......


Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:25 AM

YES!!! EVEN Colin Irwin now LOVES them!!

This is his review:



"Mojo, August 2006

Show of Hands, Witness

4 Stars

The poppy arrangements which have taken SOH to the edges of the mainstream have often been at the expense of credibility, but Steve Knightley's songs have developed such an edge that it's hard to deny them any longer. The recruitment of Simon Emerson as producer takes a sound augmented by the likes of Seth Lakeman and Miranda Sykes up several notches; this is a big album

Colin Irwin"


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: redsnapper
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 08:41 AM

Not really my cup of tea like most of SoH's and especially Steve Knightley's stuff although I do like and would be in solidarity with much of the message of the lyrics.

RS


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:38 AM

Just heard that Show of Hands are going to be on Mark Radcliffe's BBC Radio 2 show next week.

Here's the link to his page and it'll be on 'Listen Again' for the entire week as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/radcliffe/

Well done Mark!


:0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:07 AM

If you want to hear a rousing live performance of Roots, in which Steve Knightley changes the words to specifically mention Kim Howells' contribution to live music, there is one at the finale of this 55 minute Show of Hands concert recorded in Blackburn and broadcast last Thursday on BBC Radio Lancashire.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/lancashire/aod.shtml?lancashire/drift_lancs

It will be online now until this following Thursday.

There is a repeat broadcast on Radio Lancs tomorrow night (Sunday 23rd July).


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: oombanjo
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:37 PM

Love it


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 05:44 AM

Got it 2 weeks ago complete with booklet and all the required words therein. Lyrics quite clear on listening.............. A fine piece of work. Also got the new CD by Muse. Excellent throughout.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,NellieClatt
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:33 AM

Good song, shame about the performance.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:50 PM

Yes, that's what I've been saying about SoH for a decade before 'lizziecornish' thinks she 'discovered' them, yet it always sends her into a hissy fit for some reason. Steve Knightley is a good songwriter, Phil Beer is a fine musician. Put them together and the sum is far, far less than the parts. The band's output is mediocre, bland MOR crap and now it's overproduced to boot. However it enables them to pay the bills without making any effort and that's the shame.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:58 AM

>>now it's overproduced to boot<<

Methinks the Lady hasn't actually listened to the version of "Roots" on that Radio Broadcast. I can't see how else she could describe that as "overproduced". It is a live performance. I thoroughly enjoyed listening to the whole show. The Band (Miranda Sykes is also there) sounded like they were thoroughly enjoying playing too.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:24 AM

Individually good musicians etc. but together they sound more ' pop ' than anything else.

eric


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:27 AM

No, of course I haven't listened to the radio show. My remark about 'overproduction' (courtesy of Simon Emmerson) refers to the Witness demo I listened to months ago and promptly binned. But the last time I saw SoH live they were seriously out of tune and occasionally time (due partly to foldback problems, I think), but they were clearly just going through the motions to grab the fee and run.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Roots'y Toots'y
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:32 AM

Could someone explain to me how Show Of Hands have come as far as they have, despite the haughty aristocratic opinions of The Countess above? Obviously she/he assumes to know far more about songwriting, performance, pitch, music, live gigs, production, publicity, pairing of the correct musicians etc. than Mr. Knightley and Mr. Beer.

Strangely though, thousands of people have heard and are hearing about Show Of Hands, yet no-one knows or cares who The Countess is, apart from the fact that she/he appears to be one of the biggestself-opinionatedpainsintheARSS in the folk/roots world.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:46 AM

Nobody really knows who this latest Guest is, but most could hazard a guess, if they wanted to. This thread is meant to be about one act, and one track from their latest offering at that, not about those who offer their opinions and judgments. Personally, I find Roots dreary, derivative junk and have said so since first hearing. Some people want to listen to it, that's up to them and to explain why in musical/sociological terms if they want to, or can.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Guest Roots'y Toots'y
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:42 AM

Fair Countess beware!

Others have boasted of perfect pitch and musical knowledge before, strangely enough with regard to this very song. Yet how their so-called certain knowledge blew up in their perfectly pitched ears.

Read this at your peril.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825?thread=2495746


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:02 AM

Yes, Lizzie, I remember what I said after listening back to the Cool As Folk archive. The playback wavered around a semitone flat and I actually then imported it to Sibelius and found it couldn't be cured. Changing the tempo or key doesn't help, though admittedly I didn't apply quite as much transpositional experimentation as Bach might have done. I assume somebody imported the wrong harmony track in during editing. CAF made it sound even worse by playing it on a slowed down deck but that wasn't the whole problem by any means.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jean, Ivybridge
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:13 AM

I have just surfed in to this board and cant believe the meanderings of some people.

How can anyone knock Roots, however it is sung? What lyrics! Such an anthem for this country for those of us who are proud to be english, born here and totally pissed off with the hierarchy (including Countess Richard) who dont understand what it is all about.

Steve Knightley has written this fabulous song, which we all should be singing. Not to be slagged off by the likes of some on here.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:34 AM

Just found a photo of the band. They look like they drink most of the Beer Knightly. It's a very clever song and should appeal to all who fall for the patriotic, anti immigration claptrap that prevails at the moment in some circles.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:41 AM

Anyone that wants to actually listen to the live version of Roots just needs to go about 50 minutes into that Radio Lancashire programme (it is the last song), to which there is a link above.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:40 AM

Ms Ivybridge

Fortunately many people DO realise what Roots is about (apart from boosting the dishevelled duo's bank balance). James Henry puts it well: a clever song in a highly dangerous way, divide and rule, blame somebody else. I'm not suggesting for a minute that Beer & Knightley are far-right manipulators, just that this sort of whingeing claptrap encourages those already of this tendency. The theme is highly derivative and offers no solutions. Added to which, the song is musically flawed and the production (on Witness is rubbish. Yes, Keith, I believe you when you say it sounds better live but I . . . really . . . can't . . . be . . . arsed.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:12 AM

Could someone explain to me how Show Of Hands have come as far as they have

By tending towards being a more commercially orientated pop group with thier own sort of "cult following". They found thier niche and use it well.


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Subject: Lyr Add: ROOTS (Steve Knightley)
From: GUEST,Roots'y Toots'y
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:20 AM

'Roots' by Steve Knightley

Now it's been twenty-five years or more
I've roamed this land from shore to shore
From Tyne to Tamar, Severn to Thames
From Moor to Vale from Peak to Fen
Played in cafes and pubs and bars
I've stood in the street with my old guitar
But I'd be richer than all the rest
If I had a pound for each request
For "Duelling Banjos", "American Pie"
It's enough to make you cry
"Rule Britannia" or "Swing low",
Are they the only songs the English know?



"After the speeches when the cake's been cut
The disco's over and the bar is shut
Funeral, wedding, birthday, wake
What can we sing until the morning breaks?
But Indian, Asian, Afro-Celt
It's in the blood, below the belt
Singing and dancing all night long
What have they got right that we've got wrong.

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, roots
They need roots.

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
On the rocky shores of England

And the Minister says his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl
Pubs where no one ever sings at all
And everyone is staring at a TV screen
Overpaid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estury English, Baseball cap

We learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where we came from?
I've lost St. George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, roots
They need roots

And haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
On the rocky shores of England"



Those words are nothing to do with the far right, they are not anti-immigration either. But, they will be twisted and used in that context to once more criticise Show Of Hands, by those who have worked so very hard on messageboards in many places, to rubbish them at every opportunity. They have failed over and over again in their bizarre mission, but this won't stop them of course, as can be seen from above.

There is nothing wrong in being proud of your country, your heritage, your roots or your music, no matter where you come from, what shade of the skin spectrum you are on, or where you may be currently living.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Helpful
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:25 AM

You can listen to the whole song under the final song title here:

http://show-of-hands.tripod.com/witness.html


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:34 AM

Out of curiosity, what do you consider to be your roots in music Lizzie?

They have failed over and over again in their bizarre mission, but this won't stop them of course, as can be seen from above.

I think you are having another of your fantasies here. I'm not aware of anyone remotely imagining they could actually stop SOH, let alone try to do it.
What I do see is that some people like SOH and others (myself included) do not and that you get kind of excited when views that do not agree with your own are expressed.

Personally I could not care less whether anyone likes them or not.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 08:36 AM

....and predictably, Steve Knightly has been called 'right-wing', 'anti- immigration' and whatever other epithets you feel you need to hurl at him. Let me quote Brendan Behan on this one, he sums it up perfectly I think. " critics are like eunuchs in a harem:they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves." 'nuff said.

"Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
Round the rocky shores of England"


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 08:54 AM

What I said was:

'I'm not suggesting for a minute that Beer & Knightley are far-right manipulators, just that this sort of whingeing claptrap encourages those already of this tendency'

What Guest, John Henry said was:

' . . . [Roots} should appeal to all who fall for the patriotic, anti immigration claptrap that prevails at the moment in some circles

No-one hurled any such epithets mentioned in "Guest, countrylife"s'' post. What people here are criticising is ranting as a substitute for songwriting, poor production, ragged live performances, being out of tune, and general dishevelledness.

And no-one has any intention of trying to stop them. If they're on at a festival you can always head rapidly for another stage leaving those who apparently favour their sort of MOR soft pub-rock to it.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:13 AM

Oi Roots'y Toots'y, the Birdie Song and the Spitting Image Chicken Song both sold enough copies to get into the hit parade, popularity alone doesn't make a song ' good '

eric


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:26 AM

dishevelled and proud of it...but there again I've earned that right to be dishevelled....

And a minister said his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl
Its pubs where no one ever sings at all
And everyone stares at a great big screen
Over-paid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estuary English, baseball caps


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:46 AM

Why do you keep repeating the words? this is the fourth time now, once was quite sufficient, or is it that you think, the more you repeat it, the more people will like it?

eric


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:01 AM

We learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk - Do we? I never have and I never did.

Without our stories and our songs
How will we know where we came from? - I've never experienced an identity crisis.

I've lost St. George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back. - Oh dear! If that doesn't give the impression that someone has hi-jacked the English culture and that fingers will be pointed at the usual suspects then correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps the words should have been chosen more carefully?

Brendan Behan would have shat on the sentiments expressed.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:03 AM

at the risk of repeating myself and Brendan Behan one more time...I will...LOL

" critics are like eunuchs in a harem: they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves."

I like Show Of Hands, always will do as well...I'm not politically correct, never will be either, besides I leave politics to the "experts"

Transmission ends.....


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:15 AM

From countrylife

"I'm not politically correct, never will be either...."

Says it all!

You're not a eunuch are you?

Why do I ask?

Because there doesn't seem to be any balls in your argument.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Countrylife Lover
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM

Now now....boys....calm down. 'Roots' always get people going....that's why it's such a great song, causes heated discussion, in exactly the same way Country Life did too.

Always the mark of a Knightley Song.

JamesHenry, I don't think you have a leg to stand on, or indeed anything else to shout about, after your words above.

This is the quote from countrylife "I'm not politically correct, never will be either...."

This is the quote from you "Says it all!"

This is from me. Oh really JamesHenry! So, you mean that anyone who has the guts to still have their own thoughts and not those they are ordered to have, is a eunnuch now? You mean that if you dare to say you are not politically correct, then you must surely be racist? Is that what you mean? Surely not, perhaps you'd like to explain, for I'd hate to get the wrong end of the stick.

The whole point of 'I've lost St. George in the Union Jack' means to me that it's apparently OK to be British, Scottish, Irish or Welsh, but very non OK to even begin to imagine yourself as English. The English truly have become 'lost' within this Disunited Kingdom. How did that ever happen? It is one of the strangest things to have ever happened in our history.

Most young English people these days couldn't tell you much, if anything, about their past, their heritage, their music, their songs, their dances. If you can get them to even hear you, over the sound of the football on the giant sized screens, in your local pub, you could try asking them and see the bizarre looks you get. Then go and do the same thing in Ireland and see what happens there, if you can get them to hear you, over the sound of traditional music being joyfully played by young and old alike that is.

"Hello, is that The Eunnuch's Room? We've another coming down. His name? Why yes, it's JamesHenry"

Give me a man who thinks for himself and who has the guts to say what he feels everytime.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM

"then...down to The Wagon and 'Orses...half a pint...that's all we can afford...a good oldarguement about Mr. Gladstone, then a song, and that's it for the night men..."

that's what pubs were all about at one time...that quote is from a fairly well known book..about...England, a particular part of England.I'll take me fiddle, or guitar into a pub with me, but I'd probably get looked at strangely or get told to leave, and that's what it's all about isn't it?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 12:51 PM

Countrylife Lover


What on earth are you raving on about?
Did you even read my post or did the red mist descend when you perceived a criticism of Roots, blocking any reasoned understanding
of the content.
Nowhere have I accused anyone of racism. What I have made reference to is the possibility that certain lyrics in the song could strike a chord with the evil bastards in our society who beat the racist drum behind the banner of patriotism. I'm in no way saying that this was the writers' intention, just that the words are open to interpretation.
As for the young people in our society, you don't seem to hold out much hope for them. I think that you grossly underestimate their ability to discover things for themselves and to make their own minds up. The Irish comparison you draw gave me a laugh though. The impression I got was that when you step off the boat in Ireland you find yourself in a scene from Darby O'Gill and the Little People.
I'm sad to say that until you can see past your blinkered view of the little ditty that is Roots then the end of the stick that you will always get will be the shitty end.
Oh! Down here in the eunnuchs' room I've employed my expertise as a pioneer of the ball trasplant and I'm having a ball working my way through the hareem.


Do your nurses know that you have access to a computer?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Countrylife Lover
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:34 PM

Glad you explained yourself JamesHenry, that's what I wanted to hear.
So you're basically saying then that the English can never again say they're proud to be English, as the Scottish, Irish or Welsh can, quite openly, for if they do those, what was it you said "the evil bastards in our society who beat the racist drum behind the banner of patriotism." will once more raise their ugly heads.

Well, we may as well all give up and go home then! I mean, if we're content to let The Evil Bastards win every time, never to sing songs about who we are, never to dare ever be allowed to be patriotic for fear of The Evil Bastards, what's the point?

They've won haven't they! The Good Men And True have all walked away into the mist of wimpishness called political correctness. Take down the flags, remove the history, prostrate yourself at all times JamesHenry, for that is the only way to be English in your opinion it would seem.

I care not what colour an Englishman's skin is, but I care about the state of his soul and what he believes in, and I believe he/she has a right to be proud of who they are and what their country stands for in the world.

So tell me, what do you think people think of these days, when they think of England?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:23 PM

The whole point of 'I've lost St. George in the Union Jack' means to me that it's apparently OK to be British, Scottish, Irish or Welsh, but very non OK to even begin to imagine yourself as English.

Seems ill thought out to me then. Where is St David in the Union Jack?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Union Jack
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:39 PM

When I first came into being in 1606, Wales was united with England.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:37 PM

Where do you begin when those with the mentality of 'lizziecornish' (who also knows precious little about the history and politics of union within these islands) fail to equate the divide-and-rule tactics of imperialism with those of a would-be supremacist ascendancy within a single land? Political correctness means showing equal respect to all within a diverse society, regardless of gender (this includes not demeaning both men and women with stupid terms like 'boysies' and 'girlies), ethnic origin (not patronising those from other cultures like they were novelty musicians who you can pay less cos they're not used to the sort of fee indigenous bands get, whoopee) or a brand of belief, whether religious or just a view from crumbling high moral ground, as superior to any other and generally assuming that Britannia still rules the waves. And a person of colour is never 'English' though they may be a UK citizen.

To quote Billy Bragg:

Oh look out, my country's patriots are hunting down below
What do they know of England who only England know?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:43 PM

Countrylife Lover

Can I have a few pints of what your on?
If you're reading my posts I'm at a loss to understand how you have interpreted them to mean that, "the English can never again say that they are proud to be English."
Are you ill?
You seem to have twisted my words to fit your own agenda, whatever that might be.
I've never read such a load of bollocks (sorry eunnucs)
And as for asking complete strangers to prostrate themselves and think of England, I'd like to oblige but only on the second date.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:49 PM

Balls (sorry eunuchs)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,stigweard
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:53 PM

Been away from the thread for a while so nice to see it's generated some healthy debate.

But Gargoyle, what are you talking about?

Half-frog? Anglophile view? World or American forum?

Anyway, it must be a good thing if the track is generating such interest.

stigWeard with no cookie


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:54 AM

Much as I hate to agree with James Henry and much as I love 'Country Life' (Song and album), this one is too near the knuckle. Parts of it sound like a BNP marching song.

Oh, and where does Knightly get off with the 'estuary English' crack? I was born in South London and have lived there and in Kent all my life (so far). What upper-class (and now, evidently, west country) snobs decry is my natural accent. Does that make me 'alien' or any less 'English'? They may THINK so..........


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:15 AM

Just to add my 5p's worth, and probably kill this thread off for good, I seem to have that effect on people round here :(

I believe the song is just a rant against the fact that English culture and identity (including English folk music) has been suppressed in the name of political correctness - the reference to Kim Howells makes that clear to me. As someone else said above, it seems OK to go around celebrating your Irishness, Scottishness or Welshness in Britain, but not your Englishness - that is apparently considered racist by anyone who is not English themselves. Steve is simply saying 'Why can't I celebrate being English in the same way as everyone else can celebrate their nationality?'.

OK, the lyrics could be misinterpreted by those who don't listen properly to be a BNP-type anthem, but I don't think that's a reason for condemning the song.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:17 AM

To be fair to Steve, I think he is referring more to a generic "Sarf Landun sahnd", which is adopted by people, who have either moved to the South East from other parts of the UK, or is used to try to sound more hip in other places. That sort of intonation has reached as far West as Plymouth. I do not read it as a swipe at any real local accent.
With regard to the merits - or otherwise - of his songwriting, I think I shall stay out of this thread.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:43 AM

Maybe you're right, Alan. And after having my accent criticised since school, perhaps I'm over-sensitive - but that remark stung. (I like Steve Knightley's songwriting most of the time, btw, it's just this one that rankles a bit).


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:50 AM

Mr Fox,

you got ragged for your accent..imagine being from Birmingham...like me *LOL* (and yes I still have the accent as well)
Have a great day everyone!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:07 AM

I think alanabit is right - "Estuary English" referred to in the song refers to the way certain (but not all) features of the accent from the Thames estuary has spread to the rest of the country, making local accents less common than they were. This is often affected by people trying to improve their street cred. Public-school (i.e. private school) educated Tony Blair is an example - he often affects glottal stops. to make himself seem like an "ordinary person" and not a toff.

Steve's lyric is not having a go at the accent of people in the south-east, just the way people affect EE in a kind of inverted snobbery, or alternatively because it's felt by some to be more "cool" than a regional accent.

There's a good article on Estuary English
here.

(My first ever attempt at a blue clicky... wahey, it works!) :-D

Although I love the song, I must admit that (typical of him) the lyric tends to stray off-target a bit with the ranting about "overpaid soccer stars, prancing teens..." but I agree with it all ;-)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:17 AM

here's another very good webpage concerning "Estuary English" a more personal take rather than academic


Gary's (Estuary) Homepage


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:36 AM

OK, well...I wasn't going to come back under my name, but....I can't keep quiet any longer! Apologies to Joe and Max.

I'm ranting! Take cover!!

Right, I'm down here in the West Country. Perhaps you need to live down here to understand where Steve is coming from. The Devon/Cornish accent is very rarely heard amongst the young these days, they could all come from Sarf London. That to me is so sad. Just one particular accent has apparently been deemed 'acceptable' by the media and that's 'Estury English', although you're still a bit cool if you come from New Cassssell, at least on Children's TV you are!

The whole point of what Steve's talking about is ROOTS!

Hello?????

It's this feeling that we can no longer BE who we ARE, that everyone has become so commercialised, so ready to take on whatever they're told is the next big thing. EVERYTHING is disappearing, today it's the West Country accent, tomorrow it'll be the Birmingham one, then the Norfolk...actuallly, that's another place where I don't hear young people speaking in their 'natural' accents anymore, again..Estury English.

There's NOTHING wrong with Estury, nothing! It just doesn't belong in Devon, Cornwall or Norfolk, it belongs in a very small part of London, where it's the *natural* accent, as opposed to other parts of London where the accent is again slightly different. When we went to Yorkshire last year I was stunned to hear youngsters talking in a local accent, couldn't believe it! My ears were all agog and lapped it up, then I spent ages trying to copy it, listening to the vowels and curling my tongue up to get the right sound (OK Am Very Sad Person!) ;0) But it's lovely, it's fascinating and it's what makes us, US!!!!

Ey, Champion!

And as for 'over-paid soccer stars and prancing teens' that's not 'off-target AT ALL, it's bang right up to date and hitting the bullseye over and over. Just this morning I woke up to hear of some new Soccer Star (Star??) being transferred for £25 million..yes MILLION!

Yet...to quote Oxfam "every 3 seconds a child dies" ??????

So, that's OK then isn't it! I mean, heck, let's trample over the bodies of children so we can all get to see the highest paid soccer stars in the land, because, that's what life's about isn't it! Isn't it??????   

Oh HELL...I hope NOT!!!

And last night my town was *filled* with prancing teens, swigging back the lager, shouting, screeching and er...well, we won't go into *that* bit, but hey, use your imagination. The 'Prancing Teens' is surely a reference to the POP Idol/Fame Academy/Britney/Spice Girls culture that has surrounded our young people for a decade now. It's sucked the very *life* out of music, it's vacuous, morally bankrupt and driven by some Decidedly Deeply Dodgy people if you ask me, who personally, as a mother, I'm all up for investigating in minute detail!!

That music 'cultchur' has come right out, into fashion and toys as well. Small children being 'groomed' to like Britney, the Bratz Dolls for tiny tots, which make me shudder, but don't get me started on those, all dressed as Wannabee Pop Stars...or er..prancing teens...Get 'em early, brainwash 'em at every opportunity and voila! The next generation to keep those fat dodgy cats grinning with slimey satisfaction from ear to ear....Sheesh! Give my FIVE minutes with those Cutthroats Crooks and Conmen and I'd wipe the slimey smiles from their faces instantly!!!

Steve's not gone off-track at all!! He's right there in the very thick of it all.

£25 million for a footballer??? And these guys are being held up as heroes to our children???? WHY??? I mean, I'm fair exhausted with trying to figure it all out...so if someone can tell me WHY David Beckham or Wayne Rooney are 'heroes' I would LOVE to know!

And Kim Howells? Well wasn't that a reference to live music being played in pubs. I mean heck, let's just scrap the music, get in the HUGE MEGA TV'S, maybe a casino or two...and let's take the Nation to a whole new HIGH!! Stick ENG..ER..LAND flags up during the World Cup and imprison people if they DARE to fly an English Flag at any other time!!!

Have we all lost our marbles?????

And what does the population do? Are we taking to the streets in rage? Are we writing to the papers in disbelief? Are we ringing up the BBC or ITV and complaining in our thousands? Are we boycotting shops selling weird things?

Nope, we're apparently not able to get enough of it all, well some can't anyway. Cries of "BRING IT ON!" can be heard throughout the land!

Worrying isn't it? Unless you're an apathetic, short-sighted, vaccuous, empty-headed, lager-swilling, one-hit wonder, prancing, over-paid footballing twit!!...In which case, the world's never been so great!

Jumping Catfish! It's enough to bring on a Rebellion!

So don't....DON'T tell me that Roots could be deemed to be a BNP anthem....because it's NOTHING of the sort! I mean are you seriously trying to put my Blood Pressure up even HIGHER in the hope that I'll self-combust???

'Roots' a song that should wake us all up, please GOD, before we disappear down a Black Hole so Deep and so Dark that we may never get out again!!


And now, I'm off to listen to Liege & Lief to calm myself down...although it probably won't, because then I'll get all jiggly about beautiful folk music that's never played because 'the media' have written it out of the picture....apparently because they KNOW we'd all rather be watching Big Brother and Posh'n'Becks than daring to hear songs of beauty, history, or intrigue.

Aaarrrgggghhh!


Lizzie!!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:55 AM

"Lizzie Cornish" wrote: "And as for 'over-paid soccer stars and prancing teens' that's not 'off-target AT ALL, it's bang right up to date and hitting the bullseye over and over. Just this morning I woke up to hear of some new Soccer Star (Star??) being transferred for £25 million..yes MILLION!"

And the "prancing teens"? Where do they come into it? :-)

I obviously didn't express myself very well - I just meant that ranting about soccer stars being overpaid has - as far as I can see - folk-all to do with the main target of the song, i.e. the loss of English identity and culture.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:02 AM

>>I'm off to listen to Liege & Lief to calm myself down<<

Wonder if the writer of Matty Groves ever got told off for "glorifying aldultery"? Mind you message boards and "political correctness" hadn't been invented back then, so perhaps not.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:15 AM

[i]"Lizzie Cornish" wrote: "And as for 'over-paid soccer stars and prancing teens' that's not 'off-target AT ALL, it's bang right up to date and hitting the bullseye over and over. Just this morning I woke up to hear of some new Soccer Star (Star??) being transferred for £25 million..yes MILLION!"

"Scrump" wrote And the "prancing teens"? Where do they come into it? :-)

I obviously didn't express myself very well - I just meant that ranting about soccer stars being overpaid has - as far as I can see - folk-all to do with the main target of the song, i.e. the loss of English identity and culture.[/i]

Come to that, the spread of one particular accent isn't about the loss of English identity either. Loss of REGIONAL identity, maybe. And, if there is a 'generic' accent that is spreading nationwide, it's not 'estuary' anyway - it's, I don't know what to call it, 'Jamaican Cockney?' Ali G? The one with all the 'innits' anyway.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM

First I still think SOH are brill and certainly not MOR IMVHO
secondly I thought it was bloody obvious what the song was about and scrump got bang on the money.
thirdly I think i do understand a little about politics and history,
and the ludicrous argument that allows no other view point is simply that ludicrous. (Karl Popper put it better than that)

the biggest problem, aside from the belittlement by people who should know better, to quote scrumpy"- that is apparently considered racist by anyone who is not English themselves. Steve is simply saying 'Why can't I celebrate being English in the same way as everyone else can celebrate their nationality" take a look a the darkie day threads

as for language and copying accents I can only qoute ali G a big Wassup fom the staines Massive west london stlyee!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM

The prancing teens in your town have probably observed some patrons of the folk festival "swigging back lager, shouting, screeching and er.....well we won't go into *that*" and used them as their role models?
The general tone of your post would suggest that if you are not already institutionalised then you should be, comfortably tucked up in a ward for the terminally deluded.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM

James dont be abusive, it says more about you than it does lizzie


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM

>>I'm off to listen to Liege & Lief to calm myself down<<

>>Wonder if the writer of Matty Groves ever got told off for "glorifying adultery"?<<

Would the "politically correct" term it "a woman expressing her inner desires"?...just asking

But the murder scence would be censored as not being constructive to dealing with the situation....


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:21 AM

In fact those of you familiar with Robb Johnsons work should be familiar with his lyrics whic are opposed to the "celebrity culture" type of thing foisted on us by the tabloids and channel four Z celebrities talent less shows currently dominating the media.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:34 AM

for those of You who want to hear Robb Johnson go to:

Robb Johnson


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM

From Patch Adams.....a man whom many in this country should learn more about:

"Our system of "people fame" values self-centeredness and wealth. I want to live in a world where people become famous because of their work for peace and justice and care. I want the famous to be inspiring; their lives an example of what every human being has it in them to do — act from love!"

You can read more about Patch and his Gesundheit Institution right here:

http://www.patchadams.org/

I am not mad..but I am MAD!

I am not insane....but I'm at times driven almost to the point of insanity by apathetic wimps who have buried their heads so deep in the English soil, that they can no longer see, hear or feel what is all around them!

I have not sold my soul to the Devil Of Commercialised Dumbing Down, nor will I ever....and I will rant, rage and rejoice about people who write songs about what is happening in this country...and around the world too, because I'm fair fed up with being fed a diet of Fast Food Music, filled with additives consisting of mind-numbing substances that seem to be turning people 'off' in droves!!

"We've lost more than we'll ever know round the rocky shores of England"

And..did someone mention Robb Johnson?
http://www.myspace.com/irregularrobbjohnson

I made my Christmas Cake to his 'Tony Blair My Part In His Downfall' the year before last....thwacked those raisins in with such power, the angrier he made me with his words.....another powerful songwriter who sees right through everything....

And now....if you'll excuse me I am away with Fair Reynardine, who is calling me through the mists, across the miles.......

Lizzie


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:45 AM

Woops! Sorry....Robb got posted twice there!

Cross posting I think it's called...and boy! Am I CROSS!! ;0)

Two minds....with but a single thought.....


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Welsh is a drink
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:54 AM

I don't know what all the fuss is about these idiots. Don't you mud people ever get out into the real world and hear some decent bands?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:24 PM

Poster 11:19 AM

What's abusive Cllr? The bit about the role models or the reference to Ms Cornishs' state of mind?

I suppoose that as we're on the subject of Englishness I could amend that to "terminally eccentric," it's cosier than "nuts".

Perhaps you're her knight in shining armour, one of the "Good Men and True" that she is calling on to turn back the clock - King Arthur rising from his sleep?

What I said wasn't abusive, it was stating the obvious.
If I wanted to be abusive (which I try not to be) I'd certainly make a better fist of it than in the post you replied to.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:45 PM

Cllr, I'd perhaps ignore er...'JamesHenry' most of his/her posts are purely to take a dig at me...saying nothing is the best way.

Now this is an excellent review of Witness, and mention of 'Roots' is about half way down, says it all I guess...

From Spiral Earth:

>>>Witness
Show Of Hands

"Show Of Hands are widely touted as 'England's most popular acoustic roots duo', Witness confirms that they are also the most innovative, observant and relevant English musicians around.

Production by Simon Emmerson and Simon Massey has resulted in a confident enveloping sound, the mixing accentuates the layers of vocals and instrumentation. It's not a huge departure from their past work yet it feels more coloured, surer of itself. Beer and Knightley's musicianship is, as we have come to expect, of the highest order. The alchemy between them is in their arrangements, lifting their music away from divides of genre.

Never one to avoid harsh reality, Knightley has penned another of his acerbic epics in the second track Roots. We are living in confusing times, we have a government that is less in touch with the people and the country every day, a government which has never been in touch with rural affairs. Where Country Life decried this lack of understanding by our city bound politicians Roots takes the bit between it's teeth and gets to the heart of what it means to be English. Putting it succinctly:

'Without our stories or our songs
how will we know where we've come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it Back'

This where Show Of Hands are so damn relevant, From their West Country roots they have picked apart the fabric of our country and are holding up the warp and weft for our inspection. Whether we heed the warning is up to us.

The sense of place is as strong as ever, Knightley says 'Every original song on the CD is a first person narrative or testimonial. incidents and events are witnessed and recorded and every narrator is a different character. It's really a series of scenes from a cinematic style journey of the West Country.'

It's their connection to their roots that results in the timeless feel of many of the tracks, thankfully Phil Beer gets to sing the lead on a couple of tracks on this album. He has a great voice and it's good to hear it on some upbeat songs, notably the foot stomping Falmouth Packet/Haul Away Joe.

Knightley's writing reveals a deep understanding of the human condition, and often the conflicting joy and melancholy that lies at it's heart. The closing track All I'd Ever Lost is a touching evocation of life's triumphs and regrets.

Everything has come together perfectly on this recording, the best Show Of Hands album ever? it's certainly the best album we've heard so far this year..." Iain Hazlewood<<<<

Here's the link:

http://www.spiralearth.co.uk/reviews/witnessAlbum.htm


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:00 PM

Without our stories or our songs
how will we know where we've come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it Back'

This where Show Of Hands are so damn relevant,


I'm sure you will find large numbers of people in Scotland and Ireland (and Wales if they were shown of the flag) who would gladly remove thier bits from the flag if that would make it easier for you to find St George on it.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:31 AM

GUEST,Jon wrote: "I'm sure you will find large numbers of people in Scotland and Ireland (and Wales if they were shown of the flag) who would gladly remove thier bits from the flag if that would make it easier for you to find St George on it."
------------------------------------------

Unless it was intended as a wind-up (I infer GUEST,Jon isn't English himself), the above remark just shows how people can misinterpret the sentiment expressed in "Roots".

The song is not saying the English want the Scots or Welsh, or any other race, to be thrown out of England (although there are one or two Scots and Welshmen in high places that I for one would be glad to see the back of ;-)).

Rather it is saying we (the English) want to be able to be proud of our nationality and culture in the same way that the Welsh and Scots are proud of their roots. Political "correctness" (I really hate that expression, but I have to use it because everyone knows what it means and there's no alternative phrase) has increasingly dictated that to be proud of being English is some kind of sin - at worst, racist.

Witness the banning of flying St George's flags by certain local authorities for fear of causing offence to non-English people; allowing a St Patrick's Day parade in London (nothing wrong in that, mind) but not a St George's Day one; and many other examples that I won't bore people with.

Of course if, for example, Scotland went the whole hog and became completely independent, then I wouldn't mind that - it's entirely up to the people of Scotland.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:04 AM

To be 'proud' of being English as depicted in Billy Bragg's
The Few which I referred to several posts above but no-one has taken up is sinful and racist. It is also extremely ignorant, disrespectful and doing exactly what the far right wants; dividing the population against itself. Banning the flying of a St George's flag is entirely justified in view of the way it's meaning has been hijacked and besmirched to such an extent that the perception of most nowadays is that it represents to them the kind of mentality portrayed in the song. In London, St George's Day is celebrated with Morris Dancing in Covent Garden and on the South Bank but the reaction of tourists, English and not alike, to the appearance of St George's flags is to ask who England is playing at football. Unless and until the national emblem is reclaimed it's best left unfurled.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:17 AM

countess richard wrote: "Unless and until the national emblem is reclaimed it's best left unfurled."
----------------------------------------

But I don't see how it (the English 'St George's cross' flag) can be reclaimed (from hijacking by the far right) unless we the English assert our right to fly the flag as our national emblem, and get that message across that this is not being racist but that we are simply celebrating our Englishness. Leaving the flag unfurled is just capitulating to the far right and will just make it easier for them to continue their evil racist campaigning.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: old salty
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:43 AM

Show of hands-are my absolute favourite band in the land.For all those whom are not sure see them live!! You will soon agree. Phil beers blind fiddler is un-real.Great for the step machine and calf muscles.steve is well, makes me wish i was a guitar string!!:)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:51 AM

Does the 'national emblem' really have to be the flag attributed to a medieval, middle-eastern, possibly not mythical bloke with no connection whatsoever to this country and who serves also as a patron saint to all sorts of other places? I don't think anyone is suggesting the monumental task of trying to reclaim the swastika which started off merely as an early christian symbol. Emblems are purely symbolic and once people get the idea that they have come to mean something horrific they are perhaps better dropped. It is surely far more meaningful and of infinitely greater importance to preserve, uphold and build upon our cultural heritage.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:59 AM

Scrump, Jon is English, born in Shrophire of English parents but lived in Wales for much of his life.

What you doen't seem to get is that while the Union Jack is sort of "universally accepted" by the English, the other nations have not always been entirely happy with this Union.

One could argue that the Union Jack itself has contributed towards the other nations wanting to be proud of thier nationality and maintaining thier identity rather than swallowed up in Britain (the all conquring English and thier "unions". In other words, it's not wanting the Union Jack that has helped

There is more than a touch of irony in England, wanting the flag that they "inflicted" on the other nations back to get thier identity, don't you think? "It's my flag too" seem a bit odd, don't you think?

Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong in wanting to be English, enjoying English culture, etc.

Again though, I do find an element of humour in this song. It's style and performance seems to me to owe more to the "American Pie" culture than to the English musical heritage it is apparantly concerned about.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:00 AM

>>Unless and until the national emblem is reclaimed it's best left unfurled.

Diane, Billy certainly unfurled a rather large St Georges flag in Manchester at the Bridgewater Hall gig on the "Hope Not Hate" tour, and very much made the point that the symbol SHOULD be reclaimed from the far right. I assume he did the same at the Shepherd's Bush gig you were looking forward too?

Judging from what I saw up and down my road during the World Cup, and on various cars, THAT symbol of "Englishness" at least is well on its way to being back to being owned by everyone.

"Roots" is a great song, and as long as those singing it also understand the issues behind "English, Half English" (and on the whole most reasonable people in this country do), there isn't a problem.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:04 AM

Yes! Scrump understands!!!

Diane (countess)....WHAT *are* you on about???

It's because of *that* attitude that we're all in such a mess anyway! By giving in to racists and allowing them and ONLY them to fly the flag we are committing a HUGE mistake!

And THAT is what Roots is surely saying? It's time to take that flag away from the racists, the football hooligans etc...and put it BACK into the hands of people who truly care what England is about, what we stand for and where we're going!!

England, imo, is one of the most tolerant and welcoming places in the world. There will always be racists, in every single country, it sadly goes with the nature of some humans, you'll never stop it, but you can water it down to such an extent that it loses it's power..and you can all join together to make your flag stand for the most positive and uplifting things imaginable....

And that's what we have to do....not hide in corners, apologising for ourselves or wringing our hands over the racists and the slobs, whilst offering them our flag and saying "Here you take it, we don't want it anymore, let it become *your* symbol. It's too much trouble to fight back...and besides...Big Brother's on and I so have to watch that!"

WHAT made us all walk away in the first place?

WHY did we stop loving ourselves as a nation?

WHO decided to only bring up every negative thing about the English?

WHERE have all the 'wonderful' things about this country been buried?

And WHEN are we all going to come to our senses, dig them up and start rejoicing in ourselves once more?


Billy Bragg? Diane...do you mean the same Billy who's busy trying to do just what I've described above....to make OUR flag stand for all the right things again, along with many others, Phil and Steve very much included?


Lizzie


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:08 AM

Flag flying to me is akin to a dog marking his territory. Anyone who has visited Northern Ireland within the last thirty years will understand what I mean.
Why the need to fly a flag to establish your Englishness? If you're not proud of it by now you never will be.
I'm really at a loss to understand how waving a flag will make the slightest bit of difference to your/our lives.
I associate flag waving with conflict or a senseless homage to outmoded institutions that haven't the slightest relevance to me.
The outside worlds' perception of our Englishness should be set by our good example, understanding, compassion and tolerance towards othersn not our flag waving.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:09 AM

Sorry Keith, posted at the same time as you there!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:12 AM

Yes! Scrump understands!!!

So well that he thought my comments on the Union Jack were not made by an Englishman.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:32 AM

By giving in to racists and allowing them and ONLY them to fly the flag

Whoever said that? No-one. 'lizziecornish' may be able to find a literacy tutor in South Devon. She needs one.

I love Billy Bragg dearly but I'm not him. Flag-waving is a dubious and highly dangerous activity. This applies more than most to the Union Flag (not Jack) as anyone would discover after a cursory study of the making of the union. Such A Parcel Of Rogues In One Nation springs to mind.

England, imo, is one of the most tolerant and welcoming places in the world

You are surely fantasising. This country has made use of immigrants after colonising their own lands and made it impossible for them to eke an existence there, then made them extremely unwelcome as soon as domestic economics downturns made them surplus to requirements. Even Germany was a bit more upfront and less hypocritical by refusing to grant nationality to their Gastarbeiter influx but continued to treat them as economoc commodities and thus as exportable unemployment statistics.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:35 AM

. . . oh, and btw, 'lizziecornish'. I thought you had turned against BB because he had the temerity to stand up to your monster capitalistic mate Murdoch over the MySpace attempted ripoff?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:46 AM

Nope, I've never 'turned against' BB Diane. Take a look at the Myspace threads where I've praised him...

From you:

"Whoever said that? No-one. 'lizziecornish' may be able to find a literacy tutor in South Devon. She needs one."

From me:

'Physician heal thyself' and then get thee a geography teacher Diane...I'm in East Devon... ;0)


From you:

"You are surely fantasising. This country has made use of immigrants after colonising their own lands and made it impossible for them to eke an existence there, then made them extremely unwelcome as soon as domestic economics downturns made them surplus to requirements. Even Germany was a bit more upfront and less hypocritical by refusing to grant nationality to their Gastarbeiter influx but continued to treat them as economoc commodities and thus as exportable unemployment statistics."



WHY are you SO STUCK in the past Diane????? That's half the problem! The hatreds from centuries brought into the present and carried forward to the future.....The PAST has GONE Diane!! We ARE...NOW...one of the most tolerant and welcoming countries in the world...move on....or at least bring some of our great history out as well as the bad...That's EXCATLY what I was talking about earlier...

The Rotten English! Damn Them All To Hell! Look At What They Did!

Yes....LOOK at what we did....but LOOK in a balanced way, not with the scales constantly loaded up with negative weights!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:50 AM

Nothing worse than capital letters back to front is there! ;0) Woops! Blushing Smiley.....EXACTLY....

Oh heck...I'm becoming pedantic!

Save me, Oh God Of The Messageboards...Save me!


Changing the thread slightly, but not really...


So what DOES 'Being English' actually mean to people these days then?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:51 AM

The hatreds from centuries brought into the present and carried forward to the future.....The PAST has GONE Diane!!

Lizzie, even in Wales, I can find you living people who remember having to wear a placard round thier neck as a punishment for daring to speak Welsh in a Welsh school.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: alanabit
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:54 AM

One of my friends commented to me during the World Cup that he was really glad that so many Germans were showing the flag. He saw it as one in the eye for the ultra right and fascist thugs. In view of the fact that the World Cup represented all that was friendly, open and international about Germany, I think he was right. It was a bad month for the bigots.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:58 AM

I used to think 'lizziecornish' got all her bizarre and dangerous imperialistic notions from Daily Mail leaders but now it seems she isn't even reading THAT rag, reporting as it does with glee the latest Home Office promise to rid our shores of 'failed asylum seekers', possibly by the end of next week. Tolerant and welcoming? Stand by now for the anti-Polish onslaught: 'over here, taking our jobs, houses, health care (ha! actualy, they're providing all these). What'll you want to do? Deport the Warsaw Village Band?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:01 AM

Of course we would all like to see the past forgiven and to move on. I don't really see flag waving as a way forward though.

Although my own tastes do tend me mostly to Irish music, I'd say get out and join in with singing, playing or dancing to the music. It really is the best way. Tell others who much you have enjoyed doing this and invite them too if they show an interst...


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:02 AM

countess richard wrote: Does the 'national emblem' really have to be the flag attributed to a medieval, middle-eastern, possibly not mythical bloke with no connection whatsoever to this country and who serves also as a patron saint to all sorts of other places? I don't think anyone is suggesting the monumental task of trying to reclaim the swastika which started off merely as an early christian symbol. Emblems are purely symbolic and once people get the idea that they have come to mean something horrific they are perhaps better dropped. It is surely far more meaningful and of infinitely greater importance to preserve, uphold and build upon our cultural heritage.
Good point countess, but I don't think the St George's cross has become quite as unpopular as the swastika - at least I hope not.

If we abandon the St George's cross we would have to invent another emblem, assuming we need one at all? See below.
-----------------------------------------------
GUEST,Jon wrote: "Scrump, Jon is English, born in Shrophire of English parents but lived in Wales for much of his life."
OK I was wrong, sorry.
What you doen't seem to get is that while the Union Jack is sort of "universally accepted" by the English, the other nations have not always been entirely happy with this Union.

One could argue that the Union Jack itself has contributed towards the other nations wanting to be proud of thier nationality and maintaining thier identity rather than swallowed up in Britain (the all conquring English and thier "unions". In other words, it's not wanting the Union Jack that has helped

Point taken, but I think 'Roots' is saying they don't want the Union Flag (Jack) any more than the other nations - they want to reclaim the English flag 'back' from it. I agree that the Union Flag has become associated with the far right more than the St George's cross.
There is more than a touch of irony in England, wanting the flag that they "inflicted" on the other nations back to get thier identity, don't you think? "It's my flag too" seem a bit odd, don't you think?
Possibly. I'm aware of the history and why every other nation seems to hate England, but things have changed somewhat in recent years so that some would say the balance has swung against England (e.g. the West Lothian question) and all we are saying is it's time we got back to a level playing field.
Although I'm English born and bred, I have Irish, Scots and Welsh ancestry and I like to see (and join in with!) each nation celebrating their national identity. I would like the English to be able to do the same without being frowned upon by other nations or by our own authorities.

Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong in wanting to be English, enjoying English culture, etc.

Again though, I do find an element of humour in this song. It's style and performance seems to me to owe more to the "American Pie" culture than to the English musical heritage it is apparantly concerned about.
LOL :-)
-------------------------------
JamesHenry wrote:Flag flying to me is akin to a dog marking his territory. Anyone who has visited Northern Ireland within the last thirty years will understand what I mean.
Why the need to fly a flag to establish your Englishness? If you're not proud of it by now you never will be.
I'm really at a loss to understand how waving a flag will make the slightest bit of difference to your/our lives.
I associate flag waving with conflict or a senseless homage to outmoded institutions that haven't the slightest relevance to me.
The outside worlds' perception of our Englishness should be set by our good example, understanding, compassion and tolerance towards othersn not our flag waving.

Very good point, JamesHenry. But the world would be more boring without the annual celebrations (St Patrick's Day, etc.) that go with national identity in a harmless way, without any overtones of racism or xenophobia.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:19 AM

From Diane:

"I used to think 'lizziecornish' got all her bizarre and dangerous imperialistic notions from Daily Mail leaders but now it seems she isn't even reading THAT rag, reporting as it does with glee the latest Home Office promise to rid our shores of 'failed asylum seekers', possibly by the end of next week. Tolerant and welcoming? Stand by now for the anti-Polish onslaught: 'over here, taking our jobs, houses, health care (ha! actualy, they're providing all these). What'll you want to do? Deport the Warsaw Village Band?"

SORRY???????

What makes you think I'm imperialistic Diane? I know you've also called me fascist and racist in the past,(????) (!!!!) but this is a brand new one?

You see, this thread is exactly what the song is about!

As soon as you dare to stick your head above the parapet and whisper...

"Hello guys...er...I'm sort of er...English and I might be just getting er a bit proud of that...is er that OK?"

....Down swoop the PC vultures, pecking out hopeful eyes with their negative beaks, squawking and squealing, name calling and twisting......

SHEESH!!!!!

By the way, we have POLISH dentists all over Devon and Cornwall now...it brings a whole new meaning to having your teeth 'scaled and polished' I guess..... ;0)

(Wait for the cries of "Racist Dental Joke! Off with her head!" to start up) ;0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:55 AM

Our dentist is Irish, name of Phil McCavity.
I know it's ancient but it still makes me smile.

I don't think that you need a literacy tutor lizziecornish but a few sessions in the art of self-assertiveness may help to convince others of your pride in being English.

"Hello guys (an Americanism)...er...I'm sort of er...English and I might just be getting er a bit proud of that...is er that OK?"
doesn't sound very convincing, does it?

Most of my posts are not about having a go at you. This perception is another delusion that you are experiencing. The debate is about the sentiments expressed in "Roots" and it seems that every time someones' opinion differs from yours you take it as a personal attack. Not everything is about you, opinions differ, ours obviously do. Try to argue objectively and I'll do my utmost to do the same.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:10 AM

You argue your way JamesHenry, I'll argue mine, be it with 'guys' or 'chaps' depending on how I'm feeling. I'm not into controlling the way people write or speak. Good joke though. Thanks for that.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:19 AM

Our dentist is Irish, name of Phil McCavity.

Our dentist is from South Africa. Perhaps he Boers holes?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:30 AM

>>I don't think anyone is suggesting the monumental task of trying to reclaim the swastika which started off merely as an early christian symbol<<

The very emotive swastika is a lot older than that, and seems to have started out as a Hindu and Budhist symbol.

You still see lots of them around in the Indian sub-continent, and indeed the 1 billion people there have never really lost them. There is much head-shaking in this house whenever I hear anyone advocating the extension of the current German ban on its display to all Europe, because those that do are just being as intolerant of the wider world,in some ways, as those that perverted the symbol in the first place.

I'm not sure how one says "It's my swastika too and I want it back in Hindu, Urdu or Tamil", but the principal is the same.

All these things, such as flags, are simply symbols of what they represent. It is just we human beings cling to such symbols because on the whole they help rather than hinder expression.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST, swami
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:25 AM

As this article says,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4188141.stm

Hindus do in fact want to reclaim the swastika.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,GUESTrobertlouis
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:56 PM

I'm a Scot who has lived in England for more than 20 years. Yes, I'm a SoH fan. And I don't find anything offensive or intimidating in SK's lyrics. He just happens to capture the voices and feelings of otherwise disenfranchised people in the countryside and on the coast in the west country. Roots is highly polemical and while it's the most immediately catchy, accessible and overtly commercial track on Witness after the Falmouth Packet, a lot of the other tracks contain far better lyrics - he is one of the more mature and thoughtful songwriters around right now.

That's the SoH piece in my context.

Now the flag. Phewww. I'd always seen the English stereotype as lacking in passion, middle of the road, C of E etc - not here. If you could harness the emotions expressed here positively you'd rebuild your cultural identity in no time. But you do need to rebuild it. It's a mongrel, borrowing promiscuously to the point where its real identity has all but disappeared. And that's where SK is right. But during the recent world cup did I feel intimidated by beer-swilling louts waving the flag and daring anyone not to conform? You bet I did. You have a long, long way to go to get the St George's flag back from the simplistic xenophobia that marks out the territory of most of those who wave it. National identity isn't about symbols - they are dangerous and get hi-jacked and manipulated.

And to those who say up above that they're not racist but they'd cheerfully send the Scottish and Welsh politicians back, just remember that Scotland and Wales eliminated the Tories completely from their electoral maps in the 80s but still had to put up with 18 years of those mad English Tory bastards.

Yours cordially

Robert Louis


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 02:30 PM

ROBERT LOUIS FOR PRIME MINISTER OF ENGLAND!!!

Kick out Tony and his well known band John Prescott And The Agribarons!

'Tis that Celtic blood...you see...we English need a Celtic blood transfusion! I think we need to take to kilts.....that may help!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,GUESTRobertlouis
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

Lizzie

Bit of an "oops" there, m'dear.

No wish to be PM of England, if it's all the same to you. I'm deeply honoured but I think the right geographical term is "Britain".

You've just inadvertently jabbed my most tender patriotic Scots spot with a very sharp thistle.

Don't get me started - it won't be pretty..........


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 02:42 PM

Blair's band was The Ugly Rumours, Plenty of those about, and he's quite Scottish. So's the Chancellor who's very Scottish. So are they Celts? The Ancient Britons were quite Pictish which I think is fairly Celtic but they live in Ireland now. The early English were Angles (or Saxons or Jutes), i.e. West Europeans. The kilt came from Assyria (or somewhere like that) which is probably in Turkey now. Does that help? I hope not.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:08 PM

Robert Louis

As I'm now on a terrible guilt trip about thistles and kilts! (Cross-eyed Smiley!...I thought I'd better show you that we English really care about you Scots....so here's a vast amount of Celtic music for you...completely free!

http://www.myspace.com/celticmoonrising


Lizzie :0)

PS...You can 'Prime Minister' the entire country Robbie......no worries! ;0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,GUESTRobertlouis
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM

Blair's band was The Ugly Rumours, Plenty of those about, and he's quite Scottish. So's the Chancellor who's very Scottish. So are they Celts? The Ancient Britons were quite Pictish which I think is fairly Celtic but they live in Ireland now. The early English were Angles (or Saxons or Jutes), i.e. West Europeans. The kilt came from Assyria (or somewhere like that) which is probably in Turkey now. Does that help? I hope not.

My dear Countess

Can I suggest you sleep on the above quote, read it again in the cold light of day and then in your own good time try to explain again the point you're trying to make. It totally escapes me.

I think I've seen enough and will go back to my own part of the planet where there is some occasional sanity.

Oh, and by the way, the Picts were and continue to be a mystery to both historians and philologists amongst others. Their language and culture were quite different from anything in the Celtic pantheon. My forebears all came from Fife which was the centre of the Pictish culture - it's called the kingdom to this day. So please don't air shallow myth and try to generalise your prejudices under the guise of false knowledge.

Goodnight all - I'm off to Lebanon. Makes more sense than this lot.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:11 AM

I'm off to Lebanon

To research St George's geneology?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Guest Robertlouis
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 04:23 AM

Now THAT's actually quite funny!

But remember what I said about symbols........


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 05:33 AM

Could we have a reality check here. Working on the premise that there is no such thing as bad publicity - except no publicity at all, I bet SoH are lapping this up.
Here we have two talented performers involved in the folk industry whose output occasionally throws up a gem but I happen to think that "Roots" isn't one of them. They know their target audience well and the sentiments expressed in this song will give a voice to all who feel as if they have been disenfranchised and who see their way of life slipping away from them. As I've said before it could also appeal to the loony right. It's preaching to the converted.
Now the lad who wrote it probably only wrote what was in his heart at the time, liked what he heard and decided to include it on the album with the aim of hitting his target audience, selling lots of albums and making a living.
The song won't change the world. The majority of people who live in the real world and spend every day working hard to make ends meet won't, if they hear the song, see it as part of the second coming. They will get on with their lives and SoH will move on to their next project.
Things change through peoples' actions, the example that they set and how they treat others, not through a song, no matter how pleasant or controversial it is.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,GUESTRobertlouis
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 05:45 AM

A calm voice of sanity and objectivity, thank you James

If it stays like this I might stick around, so this is your last chance to go way over the top and chase me away.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:16 AM

Thinking of going, RL? Samoa might be nice . . .


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:25 AM

I disagree with JamesHenry I'm afraid.

The only reason this thread is so interesting, so passionate and indeed here AT ALL, is because of a song and the words/message within that song. The whole point of 'Roots' is that it inflames passions and when that happens people begin to talk, discuss, argue...and...THINK!!!

So many people don't think anymore! They've turned away and just carry on with a very miniscule part of life's picture, no longer wanting to look at the bigger image.

We NEED to find out who we are once more and to be proud of that. There's nothing wrong with having pride in your country if your country stands for something wonderful! Yes we're all British, but something profoundly odd, and imo also profoundly wrong, has been visited upon the English people over the last 15 years or more and we very much need to talk about it, air our views, rant and rage...scoff, laugh, whatever....anything that will bring it all out into the open again and get us searching for WHO we really are...

'Roots' is doing just that. Imagine this thread enlarged millions of times over, if this song were allowed 'out' into the mainstream, because that's would happen....

Music, above all else, has the power to nowadays reach millions of people. You only have to see the way an idea in Myspace can snowball so quickly. If the right song gets out there amazing things can happen. The difficulty is in getting these songs to be heard. Once, they would have been, but....very few people think about why 'Roots' or other songs aren't permitted in mainstream radio anymore...Could it be because those in power don't want people thinking too deeply?

After all....dumbed down proles are happy proles aren't they?

I feel deeply that the English have lost their way, generally speaking...and it's interesting that despite me raising the question of "What does being English mean to you these days?" not one person has come back on that.

Music with a message, such as 'Roots' is like this:

"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas." George Bernard Shaw

And so it is with music. The more musical 'ideas' that are heard and exchanged the more they will grow....


"IF THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE CHANGED IN THIS WORLD THEN IT CAN ONLY HAPPEN THROUGH MUSIC" Jimi Hendrix


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:31 AM

Bollocks, LC. (Sorry again, eunuchs).


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:34 AM

The whole point of 'Roots' is that it inflames passions

Your passion perhaps but not mine.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:47 AM

Sorry Lizzie. I'm with the Countess on this one.
Songs change nothing (Though I wish they could).
Many people. Dylan, Baez, Rosselson, McColl, etc, etc.....have tried to change the world (and I agree with much that was written)
Sadly The only people who can change the world are Governments....(You know those people that fuel the arms race, bomb other countries etc)
With the best will in the world. SOH will change nothing...and it's not even that good a song....It's OK...but.

It all stays the same.

Don't mean to put you down, but, look at the larger picture.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:48 AM

countess, methinks you're more than a little peeved about 'Roots' and the effect it's starting to have...

Another good sign! ;0) I'm glad you don't write songs btw, I don't think your use of the English language would catch on, unless you're writing for Vicky Pollard I suppose....Is that your vision of the New Eng...er...land then?

Passions, Potions and Poisons Jon.

It would be a sorry world if we all felt the same.

One Man's Passion Is Another Mman's Poison......


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:48 AM

Oh Ye Of Little Faith Guest! ;0) x


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:01 AM

A New England is exactly what I think. Don't pin your hopes on yesterday's satellites. Well said that Mr Bragg.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:01 AM

Lizzie.

Have you ever realised just how negative the effects of your posts have been to two honest musicians?
They send their message through their songs. Fair enough, and fair play to them.

I'm sure they don't need needlesss sycophancy.

So, Please Stop It.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:23 AM

Uh Oh...A 'Guest' :-(

>>>GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:01 AM

Lizzie.

Have you ever realised just how negative the effects of your posts have been to two honest musicians?
They send their message through their songs. Fair enough, and fair play to them.

I'm sure they don't need needlesss sycophancy.

So, Please Stop It. <<<



Diane....Sorry, can't resist this! ;0)

Could you please stop talking about Billy Bragg, for in the words of 'Guest' above, it might be having a very negative effect on him! I'm sure he doesn't need endless sycophancy! So please stop it! ;0)

Ye Gods And Uncut Toenails!

Preserve me from Moaning Minnie 'Guests'


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:46 AM

LC. 'twas you who mentioned A New England though you've clearly never listened to it. And, hey, you missed a Tams reference, or is he off your fave list now? Phew, bet he's relieved . . .


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:54 AM

From: GUEST,GUESTrobertlouis:
I'm a Scot who has lived in England for more than 20 years. Yes, I'm a SoH fan. And I don't find anything offensive or intimidating in SK's lyrics. He just happens to capture the voices and feelings of otherwise disenfranchised people in the countryside and on the coast in the west country. Roots is highly polemical and while it's the most immediately catchy, accessible and overtly commercial track on Witness after the Falmouth Packet, a lot of the other tracks contain far better lyrics - he is one of the more mature and thoughtful songwriters around right now.

That's the SoH piece in my context.

Now the flag. Phewww. I'd always seen the English stereotype as lacking in passion, middle of the road, C of E etc - not here. If you could harness the emotions expressed here positively you'd rebuild your cultural identity in no time. But you do need to rebuild it. It's a mongrel, borrowing promiscuously to the point where its real identity has all but disappeared. And that's where SK is right. But during the recent world cup did I feel intimidated by beer-swilling louts waving the flag and daring anyone not to conform? You bet I did. You have a long, long way to go to get the St George's flag back from the simplistic xenophobia that marks out the territory of most of those who wave it. National identity isn't about symbols - they are dangerous and get hi-jacked and manipulated.

And to those who say up above that they're not racist but they'd cheerfully send the Scottish and Welsh politicians back, just remember that Scotland and Wales eliminated the Tories completely from their electoral maps in the 80s but still had to put up with 18 years of those mad English Tory bastards.

Good post GUEST,GUESTrobertlouis. On the last paragraph, I'd just like to say that when I said this:
The song is not saying the English want the Scots or Welsh, or any other race, to be thrown out of England (although there are one or two Scots and Welshmen in high places that I for one would be glad to see the back of ;-)).

I was referring to a few members of our government - all right, I'll name them: Blair and Prescott - who I'd be happy to see the back of. But it's not *because* they happen to be (respectively) Scottish and Welsh, but because I think they've overstayed their welcome. It was a light-hearted remark in passing, indicated by the smiley. Just thought I'd make that clear!

As for 'Roots' I don't think it's SOH's best song by any means, but it's great fun nonetheless.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:57 AM

The thing that connects Roots, A New England and American Pie is that they are all have great singalong choruses. Indeed, I have had the privelege of being asked to join in by the writers of the first two during this year, and in the case of Roots it was several times. I haven't had the chance to sing along with American Pie quite so recently (last time was in 2003), but then Don McLean doesn't visit my part of the World quite as often. I think I understand the lyrical content of Roots and A New England rather better than American Pie, but that is still a fine song. I have to confess that the last time anyone persuaded me to kick off my shoes and dance it was to American Pie and it was in Cuba of all places. So idealogical divides are sometimes bridgeable. Crossing them just often takes a lot of work. Songs won't do it all but they sometimes can help.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:17 AM

Yes we're all British, but something profoundly odd, and imo also profoundly wrong, has been visited upon the English people over the last 15 years or more and we very much need to talk about it,

And that's where we part company, Liz. The decaying of the root of being 'British' is far, far older than 15 years - 150 would be nearer the mark, I would say, and I don't think that the last 15 years are fundamentally distinctive.

Incidentally, I saw Show of Hands a year or two back where one of the intros was a story about when they were in a pub in Piddletown (if I remember correctly) and sang some songs collected from there - absolutely no recognition from the locals. After explaining the background, SK was told to wait until Old Fred came in because "he knows all the old songs."   After an hour or two in he came - and the old songs he knew were all commercial hits from around the 50's.
To my mind, it is that sort of loss he is talking about.

No doubt as a fan you've also heard that tale, and can probably remember it better than me.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:18 AM

Ahhh..still at it I see, discussing the pros and cons of this song...just here to remind you (and you know who you are) that the next revolution needs to be paid for, now: will that be cash, Visa, Mastercharge, or American Express?


Have a great day everyone ;-)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Robertlouis
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:34 AM

I was referring to a few members of our government - all right, I'll name them: Blair and Prescott - who I'd be happy to see the back of. But it's not *because* they happen to be (respectively) Scottish and Welsh, but because I think they've overstayed their welcome. It was a light-hearted remark in passing, indicated by the smiley. Just thought I'd make that clear!

Sorry scrump - Prescott's Welsh? Which part of Wales is Hull in, exactly?

Probably a momentary lapse, but get your own country's geography right and don't try to blame that tosser on the Welsh please.

And don't forget that in the 80s the absence of parliamentary representation for the Tories in Scotland and Wales meant that we had to put up with carpetbaggers from English seats supposedly representing us in cabinet. And the poll tax which the Scots voted against hit them first. Bloody hell, you English have short memories. We've had to put up with the absentee crap for centuries.

Lights blue touchpaper and retires..........

RL


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:40 AM

Prescott was born in North Wales. Like most things in his life, this was probably an accident.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:56 AM

We, the English are a mongrel nation. The Romans, Anglo Saxons, Vikings, Normans and a whole plethora of cultural influences have contributed to make us who we are today. Our surnames are generally a clue to where our origins lie. We have, as a race, probably been trying to figure out who we are and what it means to be who we are since the Romans first arrived in what they called Britannia in 54BC.
The Celts would have certainly known who they were but when Caraticus was betrayed, the Druids wiped out on Anglesey and Boudicca was finally defeated in the Midlands, they were subdued and their culture and influence began to wane. The Romans couldn't defeat the Picts so they were contained north of the Roman Wall built by Hadrian in 122 AD.
In 450 AD the Angles and the Saxons arrived and pushed the remaining Celts into Cornwall and Wales and renamed the country Angleland.
Around the year 500AD, legend has it that a brave and fearless soldier called Arthur chased the Saxons from the land but about 50 years later they returned and settled for good, evidenced by place names ending in -ton, -worth and -ley.
In 793AD the Vikings arrived and pillaged Lindisfarne. They settled, were defeated by Alfred at Eddington and the kingdom was split. Alfred ruled Wessex and the Vikings settled in what was called Danelaw. Ethelred lost the whole lot in 1017, Canute regained it and encouraged the spread of Christianity. When he fell off the twig Edward from France, or Edward the Confessor, took the throne.
Harold succeeded him and while he was fighting a Norwgian claimant to the throne at Stamford Bridge, William, Duke of Normandy invaded. Harold got it in the eye at Hastings and the rest as they say is history.
Well perhaps not quite. I'm trying to answer the question put by Lizziecornish, "What does it mean to me to be English" Well I've got this far Lizzie. Perhaps Steve Knightley, yourself or anyone else for that matter could take up the story and we might find out the answer?


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Subject: Lyr Add: KINGS AND QUEENS OF ENGLAND (Vic Gammon)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:11 AM

Now Charles the Second had eleven bastard children
George the Third went mad
And Edward the Seventh they thought was Jack the Ripper
But Richard the Third weren't as bad as people thought he was
Victoria laid back and thought of England
Charles the First lost his head
Well the best thing about those Kings and Queens of England
Is that most of them are dead....

Chorus

Singing, Rule Britannia, Britannia waives the rules
Kings, Queens, Jacks and Knaves and Tyrants
Cheats and Fools

Now William the Third was a Protestant and Dutchman
James the First was a Scot
And George the First spoke nothing else but German
What a mixed up, interbred lot
And William the First, was a grasping Norman bastard
Believe me it's no lie
Well, there hasn't been an English King of England
Since Harold got one in the eye

Chorus

Now she was a well-heeled blue-blood Cinderella
Him, Prince Charming with big ears
But he had a thing going with the ugly sister
So it ended all in tears
So arise now you ghosts of old Oliver Cromwell
Brave Harrison and Tom Paine
Would you rid our land of this monstrous carbuncle
And bring sunshine after the reign?

Chorus

(Vic Gammon)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:20 AM

"Things change through peoples' actions, the example that they set and how they treat others, not through a song, no matter how pleasant or controversial it is."

Things will not change..not while people bitch and whine at each other


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:28 AM

Actually a play did indeed effect change in law. Someones reference to John Tams reminded me of his song How High The Price?, which in turn was used in the Lee Hall adaptation of the play The Good Hope (JT appeared in the play) The orginal Herman Heijermans 1900 play is based on the true story of a Dutch fishing community whose men were sent to sea in a rotten boat (The Good Hope of the title). It was a campaigning play that led to a change in Dutch law.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:28 AM

>>Prescott was born in North Wales. Like most things in his life, this was probably an accident.

He was born in Prestatyn, primary schooled in Yorkshire, secondary schooled in Ellesmere Port (Cheshire). He still has family locally. A few years ago now, I turned from the cash machine outside a bank in Chester and said hello to the bloke behind me, who looked very familiar. I thought I knew him from work. As I walked down the street I realised that the reason he looked so familiar was there had been a big picture of the Labour Deputy Leader addressing a party conference in Blackpool on the front of that mornings newspaper! He had obviously dropped in to visit family on his way back to London.

He has been MP for Hull for a long time (I think 1970), hence why people associate him with there.

I wonder if the former lead singer of the Ugly Rumours knows the words to Go Now? I presume Gordon Brown plays that one quite loudly in his Number 11 office with all the windows open, possibly followed up by Steve Knightley's Crooked Man.


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Subject: Lyr Add: HOW HIGH THE PRICE (John Tams)
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:35 AM

How High The Price?
(John Tams)


How high the price
How deep the water
That makes widows out of wives
For this is not fish you're eating
This is men's lives...

All clouds the sky
The boats are leaving
One last goodbye
Dark waters call us on
The Northern Sea
Knows well the sound of grieving
How slight the fate
We put our trust upon

Then go we must
No longer can we tarry
The water's wide
Yet we must go and try
And like a bird on a silvery morning
Home to your side we will chance to fly

And the water shines like patent leather
We search for signs upon this lifeless ground
The reckoning sky calls down some heavy weather
We've come for fish, and fish need must be found

Then go we must
No longer can we tarry
The water's wide
Yet we must go and try
And like a bird on a silvery morning
Home to your side we will chance to fly

And we ride the flood and trust to glory
Some planks of wood no thicker than your thumb
It's all that keeps the telling of our story
From being lost or maybe being won

Then go we must
No longer can we tarry
The water's wide
Yet we must go and try
And like a bird on a silvery morning
Home to your side we will chance to fly

All clouds the sky
The boats are leaving
One last goodbye
Dark waters call us on
The Northern Sea
Knows well the sound of grieving
How slight the fate
We put our trust upon

Then go we must
No longer can we tarry
The water's wide
Yet we must go and try
And like a bird on a silvery morning
Home to your side we will chance to fly

Home to your side we will chance to fly

sung by John Tams and Barry Coope


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Subject: Lyr Add: MANCHESTER RAMBLER (MacColl, Tams)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:53 AM

Well, if we're doing Tams now, here's his rewrite of Ewan MacColl's Manchester Rambler which was quoted from earlier:



I've camped out on Crowden, rambled on Snowdon
Slept by the Wainstones as well.
I've sunbathed on Kinder, been burnt to a cinder
And many's the tale I can tell.
Me rucksack has oft been my pillow
Heather has oft been my bed.
But sooner than part from these mountains I love,
Well I think I would rather be dead.

There's pleasure in dragging the peat bogs, and bragging,
Of all the the fine walks that you know.
There's even a measure of some kind of pleasure,
In wading through ten feet of snow.
Well I've seen the white hare on the heather,
The curlew fly high overhead.
But, sooner than part from these mountains I love,
Well, I think I would rather be dead.

CHORUS

Nothing changes, It all stays the same,
They're selling the moorland for profit and gain.
They've sold all the rivers, bought all the rain,
And you can't go up there, you're disturbing the game.
Cod's roe, caviar, milk stout and champagne,
Gold cards and dole cards but never the twain,
That's the game, that's their game.
Nothing changes, it all stays the same.

So, I'll go where I will over mountain and hill,
And I'll lie where the bracken lies deep.
I belong to these mountains, these clear crystal fountains,
Where the rocks they stand rugged and steep.
Well, I've stood on the edge of the downfall,
Seen all the valleys outspread.
No man has the right to own these mountains I love,
Anymore than the wide ocean bed.

Repeat CHORUS.



Ewan MacColl (rewritten by John Tams)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:56 AM

It's a moving song countrylife but I'm struggling to find a connection to this thread, even with reference to post 9:28 above. Could you elucidate please?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 10:02 AM

Nothing changes, it all stays the same

Reference Guest: 0647, before you ask.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 10:27 AM

IT's merely another example of how we see our countries of origin, in this case England, Steve Knightley has his, John Tams has is, another that came to mind is Richard Thompson's The New St. George, Maggie Holland's A Place Called England, the list is endless. Can change be effected through music, I like to think it's a possibility (I'm optimistic that way) but I'm realistic as well, and tend to think the chances, though there, are small. Co-operation between people will effect the change, in the long run, but as I noted in an early posting, that's not likely, not so long as we bitch and whine at each other


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Robertlouis
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 10:52 AM

Scrump

I apologise unreservedly concerning Prescott's birthplace. Doubt if there's a blue plaque on the building though....

Picking up on countrylife's last post, Knightley's view of England as expressed in Roots, and earlier in Country Life and back to songs like Cold Heart of England - at least the man's consistent in his views - may be jaundiced, but it comes across to me as an outsider, albeit one with strong emotional ties to England, as depressingly accurate in too many respects.

It's my flag too and I want it back, indeed!

For what it's worth, Maggie Holland's A Place Called England starts in the same depressing place but ends on a note of glorious optimism - seek it out if you haven't heard it.

Oh, in for a penny, in for a pound. Maybe if you got rid of the royal family.........

Lights blue touchpaper again. Gosh, this is fun!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:00 AM

Robertlouis wrote: Sorry scrump - Prescott's Welsh? Which part of Wales is Hull in, exactly?

Probably a momentary lapse, but get your own country's geography right and don't try to blame that tosser on the Welsh please.


I'm well aware where Hull is, thank you very much, and I also knew that the bloated waste of space (not to mention taxpayers' money) they call Prescott, originated not from there, but from Prestatyn, as others have since pointed out.

So far from me having to learn my own country's geography, I think you owe me an apology. Indeed you owe us all an apology on behalf of your country for foisting that sack of lard - by your own admission a "tosser" - on us.

;-)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Cllr
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:03 AM

I think there is an element "here we are left wing so obviously we are in the right" (as it were) Most people know here that i am a conservative activist and the lyrics apeak just as strongly to me with out putting it on a left right axis.

I have in th past as a club organiser booked Show of Hands and Maggie Holland and for a while Robb Johnson was official resident of a club i was running in slough!

Sometimes the "self congratulatory" left wing of the folk scene seemingly want to keep the music to themselves (i dont mean the artists) perhaps this is why some people think MOR is the worst curse you can utter. folk music is for everyone Cllr


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:05 AM

Oops, your post hadn't appeared when I did my last one. Apology accepted Robertlouis.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:32 AM

"Most people know here that i am a conservative activist"

Which reminds me of yet another persons "Vision Of Albion" as it were,
Peter Bellamy, and he was a conservative as well...

"Bellamists subscribe to a belief in the absolute purity and oneness of all things Bellamy, and bleat daily incantations in the hope of advancing the day when he will finally return to reign in ever-lasting glory" - Jon Boden

Sorry, couldn't resist!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Robertlouis
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:41 AM

Wrong country Scrump.

I'll take some blame for Blair (although he does come from Embra) and son of the manse Broon fae Fife, but not Prescott.

At the risk of altogether lowering in the tone, does anyone else find it amusing, in light of his recent antics, that he was born in "Prestatyn?"

Oh, please yourselves.

And countess - please head north, where creatures of your type haven't been much in evidence since the 1950s north of the border and it would be a nice wee bit of rarity value.

Needless to say I love Scotland, but hell, I'm glad I don't live there...........


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM

and he was a conservative as well

Peter Bellamy was no such thing. He was a free thinker who didn't, unusually, misconstrue and misrepresent Rudyard Kipling's concept of patriotism. He had no time for organised politics but was a very fine musician with very high standards of interpretation. I'm a Bellamist too if it involves aspiring to his high standards of accompaniment, harmony and getting the story over to the audience.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:47 AM

No idea what you mean RL but I must point out that one of my ancestors' skeletons has been found on the cliffs near Scarborough where we have been inhabiting the North Yorkshire Moors for almost a millenium (that can be traced, anyway).


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Subject: Lyr Add: SIR RICHARD'S SONG (Kipling, Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:56 AM

>>Peter Bellamy...was a very fine musician with very high standards of interpretation.

I am indebteded to Paul Downes for introducing me (about 25 years ago)to this Peter Bellamy opus about England's capacity to adsorb people. 1066 and all that indeed.

Sir Richard's Song   

I followed my Duke ere I was a lover, To take from England flef and fee;
But now this game is the other way over-But now England hath taken me!
I had my horse, my shield and banner, And a boy's heart, so whole and free;
But now I sing in another manner-But now England hath taken me!

As for my Father in his tower, Asking news of my ship at sea,
He will remember his own hour-Tell him England hath taken me!

As for my Mother in her bower, That rules my Father so cunningly,
She will remember a maiden's power-Tell her England hath taken me!

As for my Brother in Rouen City, A nimble and naughty page is he,
But he will come to suffer and pity--Tell him England hath taken me!

As for my little Sister waiting In the pleasant orchards of Normandie,
Tell her youth is the time for mating-Tell her England hath taken me!

As for my comrades in camp and highway, That lift their eyebrows scornfully,
Tell them their way is not my way-Tell them England hath taken me!

Kings and Princes and Barons famed, Knights and Captains in your degree,
Hear me a little before I am blamed-Seeing England hath taken me!

Howso great man's strength be reckoned, There are two things he canriot flee.
Love is the first, and Death is the second-And Love in England hath taken me!


(Lyrics: Rudyard Kipling/ Arrang.: Peter Bellamy)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:08 PM

Well, actually it's about love in another land transcending patriotic alliegance to a homeland, but since this must be why my ancestors never made it back to Normandy either, I'll go along with it. And it's a lovely tune.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:22 PM

Mine never made it back to Norway.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Robertlouis
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:34 PM

**No idea what you mean RL but I must point out that one of my ancestors' skeletons has been found on the cliffs near Scarborough where we have been inhabiting the North Yorkshire Moors for almost a millenium (that can be traced, anyway).**

There are not too many Tories in Scotland, ma'am. However, if you hail from North Yorkshire, that's splendid. My late uncle was harbourmaster at Whitby for many years and it's a part of the country I know and love well.

And I'm pure Scots for 300 years back until a little bit of Swedish intervened.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:43 PM

Still don't know what you mean. You're not calling me a Tory are you? I think it was my great-grandfather's brother who also was a Whitby harbourmaster. After Henry VIII nicked all their ill-gotten land they had to work, you see.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:51 PM

"and he was a conservative as well"
"Peter Bellamy was no such thing"

Three easily verifable sources state that, and I quote "Peter was that rare creature, the right-wing folk singer."


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:57 PM

It's not all that rare (ask the Cllr) but Elmer P Bleaty, who I first met in 1965, wasn't one of them.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM

"Bellamists subscribe to a belief in the absolute purity and oneness of all things Bellamy, and bleat daily incantations in the hope of advancing the day when he will finally return to reign in ever-lasting glory" - Jon Boden

I checked Jon Boden's site...he was joking when he said this....he has a sense of humour at least


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:04 PM

Elmer P. Bleaty

In case anyone was was wondering....Bellamy had a distinctive singing style. At a Whitby folk festival sometime in the 1980s an anagram competition came up with "Elmer P Bleaty" for Peter Bellamy, a humorous comment on the slightly nasal vibrato of his voice.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Robertlouis
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:07 PM

Perhaps I'm being simplistic but doesn't "conservative activist" morph quite easily into "Tory" or has local factionalism on the right now gone that final step?

BTW, for everyone who blithely says that the Scots MPs should be disenfranchised from voting on English matters and that Scotland can have its independence, possibly with Wales gaining the same freedom, just consider the likely outcome of that process at the English domestic level - permanent conservative hegemony in England.

Step back from the brink, folks.

And I still think Roots is a good, catchy, commercial, if all too obviously polemical song. I much prefer Steve when he's being subtle and indirect. Still, it has got us talking, hasn't it?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM

Obviously the big scraping one is joking. But at least he didn't jump to ill-thought-out conclusions about the politics of his musical hero.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:09 PM

"I think it was my great-grandfather's brother who also was a Whitby harbourmaster"

Good God!!! Wasn't Steve Knightley's great grandfather the harbour master at Southampton........?

Just asking.....;-P


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:12 PM

Not ill thought merely based on what I've read from various sources..ultimately it makes no difference one way or the other...Peter Bellamy simply was an incredible singer, and lest people forget a great composer...witness The Transports...


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:13 PM

and yes I have my YT recordings on vinyl...


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:15 PM

"What does it mean to me to be English"

Well it means little to me. It gives me a team to support (unless as withe the Football world cup, the media ram it down my throat) in sport but, it means I might know what box to tick on a form, etc but little else. I'm not particulary proud over our history with our neighbouring countries or with our empire building...

I'm not sure whether living in Wales a lot of my life has helped me consider myself largely "unrooted" or not. I have on occasions thought it has but the more I think about it, it probably made little difference.

Ulimately I'm me, in some ways pretty much a loner, and this me is not really a creature that has a great need for any form of "group identity".

There are issues in the "roots" song that mean something to me, but really they aren't specifically English issues anyway. I've known loosing a session in Wales to a Reggae night, another as it became a pub trying to cash in on trade moving towards a late night disco, the "American pie" type requests are familiar, you can play tunes such as Ty Coch Caerdydd to have people think they must be Irish because the dance tradition, at least in the Llanduno area is not as well known as say singing Calon Lan, etc.

Largely much is just an effect of commercialism and our consumer driven world, something no nation is immune to.

Fortunately, I know where to find what I want to find with music.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:22 PM

Didn't really mean that your conclusions were ill-thought-out; I was merely criticising your readiness to accept what you'd read in these 'various sources' (I know who they are . . . ). Having spent over two decades arguing with PB, I can say that his mind could not be readily categorised and that his arguments were always intense and convincing. And that he often didn't mean what he was saying at all but just arguing for the sake of it. He loved to do that . . . as I did and do.

Fantastic blues guitarist too. He used to accompany Bob Copper . . .


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

From Diane:

"And that he often didn't mean what he was saying at all but just arguing for the sake of it. He loved to do that . . . as I did and do."

Gosh, does that mean that you *really* love me then countess?

(splutter!)

;0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:41 PM

No LC, I don't argue with you. As someone else says, your utterances are lacking in cojones so where would be the point? I just try and correct some of your more outrageously inane outpourings and limit the damage. A bit like following a horse around with a shovel and bucket, really.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:51 PM

Excuse moi....being of Spanish Ancestory, that is a very rude Spanish word! Don't you know any proper English *at all*......


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:00 PM

Fantastic blues guitarist too. He used to accompany Bob Copper . . .
and I just discovered courtesey of Karl Dallas' remembrance,
PB was an Elvis Presley fan as well...what a man! (PB not Elvis Presley)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:17 PM

This is one band I don't want to hear about or from, if only because the name will always remind me of this thread.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:21 PM

That's a great shame Jeri, this thread is incredibly interesting. Each to their own though.

Not sure how we drifted from Show of Hands to Peter Bellamy, but...all threads weave into beautiful tapestries eventually...so here's a good site about Peter:

http://thetransports.tripod.com/


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:22 PM

This is one band I don't want to hear about or from, if only because the name will always remind me of this thread.

You have yet to see a proper SOH thread, Jeri.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:53 PM

You have a point there, Jon, but I don't know how long one would survive.

I had the pleasure of hearing Peter Bellamy and meeting him briefly. I enjoyed his vocal style and he was responsible for the fist song I learned on purpose, even if I've never sung it in front of witnesses Wish he'd hung around longer.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 04:14 PM

Oh Jeri...you'd survive and have a smile on your face! And not only that...but you'd be 'hooked in' in no time! Jon can never resist a SoH thread! ;0)

You can hear dozens of their songs right here:

https://www.showofhands.co.uk/merchandisev2/songbook/songbook.html


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 04:23 PM

I've resisted a few, Lizzie, although not as many as I wish I had. I haven't minded this one BTW - overall, rather more attempt at discussion than some past ones elsewhere.

I know Jeri well enough to know she would not find any fun at all in a "proper SOH" thread, particulary if they became routine.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 04:28 PM

Oh well, I seem to have got the 200.

Time for me to go and do something else now. Alby folk club tonight - only 10 minutes down the road, will see if I can do a bit of playing or singing instead of talking here. Not sure my nerves are up to it though...


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Robertlouis
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 05:46 AM

Right everyone.

Behave for the next three days please. I'm off to the Cambridge Folk Festival where I will be seeing lots of wonderful acts and will also be performing.

But my own songs - no SoH covers, or Peter Bellamy for that matter.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:25 AM

All the best RL. Knock 'em dead.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 11:22 AM

This.....is England!

The Albion Chronicles:
http://thealbionchronicles.tripod.com/id1.html

Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:07 PM

If anyone is interested in hearing Steve Knightley and Phil Beer being interviewed about Roots and their music in general, then there is a good 20 minute interview from Canadian Radio at the Canmore Folk Festival last weekend here. The links to the various artist interviews are down the bottom the page - pull the slider down.

http://www.ckua.com/artseen/index.html


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,John Amendall
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 12:58 PM

Now that was a good interview. It brought out a lot of the things about "English Roots" mentioned in this thread. For those into black humour, the story about being rung up to be told your kitchen ceiling has collapsed just before you are about to go on stage on another continent was quite funny too.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 02:59 PM

Two more 'England' links....

Maggie Holland singing 'A Place Called England' which I've known the words of for ages, and heard June Tabor singing, but, now, finally, thanks to Myspace, I, and you, can hear Maggie singing it herself:

"So rise up George and wake up Arthur..."

http://www.myspace.com/maggieholland

And here is Volume II of 'The Albion Chronicles'...Volume 1 being two posts above. It's one of the most comprehensive and enjoyable sites about England that I've yet found...and one which I'm starting to click into more and more:

http://thealbionchronicles2.tripod.com/

Also, thanks for the link to the Show of Hands interview in Canada, 'Guest Liam' above. Very interesting to hear. Hope the ceiling's fixed for when Steve gets home, although perhaps, as he missed out on the chaos of it happening, he should have to put it all back together when he gets home! ;0)



Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:10 AM

I was on my way to a gig the other day, where I would be playing tunes from all over the British Isles (and some French too) for "English" country dancing. My mate, who was driving, put on a CD of SoH doing a live gig which included this song. Two things that struck me at the time.

What would we consider to be an "English" musical style and has this been expressed in this arrangement?

Are the sentiments expressed really about "Englishness" or essentially just a rant about modern living in the UK?

My first impression when hearing the song was of a mixture of sympathy and concern. Sympathy because I agreed with some of the sentiments, concern because I felt there were aspects that could be taken as xenophobic, although having read the lyrics, I'm certain the author did not intend that.

I meet lots of people involved with folk music, song and dance who are notionally "English", who feel as if they are discovering some sort of English identity and pride through the tradition but are nevertheless confused about the whole identity thing. Am I English, British, European, Western or the global "North"?

I guess it doesn't really matter as long as when we are trying to celebrate what we feel connected to, we still value the worth of other people and what they feel connected to too.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 11:08 AM

The second question has been adressed in this thread, but scattered throughout 250 posts.

An english musical style though. How long have you got? I belive 'what is folk music?' is first in the queue of questions that will take some time to answer...


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 11:26 AM

i bought the album the other day at banbury folk festival and the title track was played on Mike Harding's last Wednesday.

First comment isn't it the point of the song that we are confused (speaking generally) about what is our identity and that we ape american values because we dont have our own. ?

and secondly its hardly xenophobic as it praises other cultures that retain there own identity through celebration and song. Cllr


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 11:36 AM

From Bunnahabhain

The second question has been adressed in this thread, but scattered throughout 250 posts.

Yes you are right, but sometimes reading through this thread, my eyes kept on glazing over.

An english musical style though. How long have you got?

Time enough, depending on how the topic is discussed.

I belive 'what is folk music?' is first in the queue of questions that will take some time to answer...

Sure (and I think I have more of a notion about this than what is an English style). Sometimes it seems like a pointless exercise...


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:31 PM

Hope no-one minds me reviving this thread. I've just started a new one about 'Roots' forgetting this one from some time back, which DMcG has just pointed out to me...

As the Lakeman and Harding thread was in er...danger of becoming a 'Roots' thread I thought it best to take mention of this song out of there and into it's own place..so here I am! :0)

Some pretty grotty comments were made about it in there. Speaking personally, I think 'Roots' is Steve Knightley's strongest and best song yet. Perhaps that's because I live in The West Country where our 'roots' are in danger of disappearing, possibly forever...

I'll just put the words in again to refresh memories or inform those who are new to this thread...Just wondered what others thought though....


So...do like it or not? Here are the lyrics and below is the Myspace link to Show of Hands site, where you can hear part of the song:

'ROOTS' by Steve Knightley.

"Now it's been twenty-five years or more
I've roamed this land from shore to shore
From Tyne to Tamar, Severn to Thames
From moor to vale, from peak to fen
Played in cafes and pubs and bars
I've stood in the street with my old guitar
But I'd be richer than all the rest
If I had a pound for each request
For 'Duelling Banjos' 'American Pie'
Its enough to make you cry
'Rule Britannia' or 'Swing Low'
Are they the only songs the English know?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
They're never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - they need roots

After the speeches when the cake's been cut
The disco is over and the bar is shut
At christening, birthday, wedding or wake
What can we sing until the morning breaks?
When the Indian, Asians, Afro, Celts
It's in their blood, below the belt
They're playing and dancing all night long
So what have they got right that we've got wrong?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than well ever know
Round the rocky shores of England

And a minister said his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl
It's pubs where no one ever sings at all
And everyone stares at a great big screen
Over-paid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estuary English, baseball caps
And we learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where weve come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
Round the rocky shores of England"


Show of Hands Myspace page:
http://www.myspace.com/showofhandsuk



Lizzie :0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:33 PM

That's twice you have posted the same set of copyrighted lyrics on this site. Can I assume you have the composer's permission to do so?
    We post lyrics here all the time, Giok - that's part of discussing them - "fair use," they call it.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:37 PM

Hello MacKenzie!

Well Show of Hands openly encourage EVERYONE to copy their CDs and pass them round, so I'd very much doubt that they'd mind their words being put on here, or anywhere else, particularly as I've put Steve's name up there. Thanks for the concern though.

Oh..and by the way...you can read the lyrics for yourself over on Show of Hands Myspace page....just click on er...'lyrics'

:0)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM

I find the lyrics leave a rather unpleasant taste in the mouth; there's a feeling of a manufactured grievance about them. I imagine they would appeal greatly to readers of the Mail and the Express.
To be sure, the English are generally crap at their own culture, but there's an underlying whiff of Nick Griffin about this song, which I'm sure wasn't Knightly's intention.
Listening to the track on the myspace link above, the delivery is dire - about as musical as a metronome. Give me Billy Bragg and Maggie Holland any day.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:30 PM

>>>I imagine they would appeal greatly to readers of the Mail and the Express.<<<

Oh! Here we go!!!!!


>>>>there's an underlying whiff of Nick Griffin about this song, which I'm sure wasn't Knightly's intention.<<<<


Absolute bogwash!!!!! And deeply insulting to Steve Knightley too.

You see...that's what INCENSES me about some people! If you DARE to say that we've lost our way, that our 'roots' aren't doing very well, then out they come with their cries of "RACIST" "FASCIST" "DAILY MAIL READER" and now "DAILY EXPRESS READER" too!

In fact...'they' are also the most intolerant and judgemental of people I've ever come across, who accuse the tolerant English of er...being intolerant and judgemental!

Tell you what Ginger...come down to The West Country and you find me one teenager who has a West Country accent...and I'll treat you to a Cream Tea up at Jacob's Ladder Restaurant!!

GEEZ! All the kids down here, sound as if they've just stepped out of Bloomin' 'Eastenders'...which is FINE if they HAVE...but they haven't have they? They've been made to feel ashamed of how they talk and who they are and where they're from by a media and a Government who seem to be intent on turning us all into dumbed-down clones, who have no past, live for the present, and never think of the future!

Taken from 'Roots' by Steve Knightley, from above:

"....And we learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where weve come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back..."

There is NO identity amongst very, very many of the young people down here in The West Country.....they'd not have a clue about 'their stories or their songs' even though they live in a land FILLED with legends and heroes!

And there is NOTHING racist about wanting your flag to stand for all the right things and for taking a stand against the evil people of the National Front, who've held on to it for way too long!

I mean...are you SERIOUSLY telling me that you think the National Front SHOULD have our flag????????

Because let me tell you something Ginger! My Dad who'd be 92 now if he were still with us, went to war for England and for Britain and for a FREE WORLD! He did NOT go to war, so that several decades later, his flag, would be taken over by The National Front or Football Thugs whilst Apathetic Cowards stood idly by letting them take our flag whilst muttering "Oh forgive us for being English...we are not worthy to raise our heads! We deserve everything we get"

Hell's Bells and Buckets of Blood! I am SOOOOOO angry!

It's WAY overdue that the Good Guys came riding over the hill to take it back and to make it stand for England as she is today. This is a wonderful country! The Scots are allowed to be Scots, the Irish, Irish and the Welsh, Welsh....but the English????????

Oh NO! We're just a bunch of would-be racists, apparently, who have to be kept down by being told how terrible we all are!

Well guess what! We're not playing anymore...

We English are now of MANY colours, indeed we have been for centuries....I've Spanish blood flowing through my veins from my ancestors, but I consider myself English and I'm damned proud to be English too...and I'm also damned if I'm going to let people tell me, anymore, that having a passion for your country, her beauty, her history, much of which is GOOD by the way...is WRONG or DODGY!!!

To Hell With That...

Been there, been yelled at, been accused of everything already (none of which is remotely true) and I'm afraid that I still think that 'Roots' tells it like it is! Because we now have a couple of generations of people who haven't a clue about their history, apart from the awful bits...and EVERY country has awful bits...

If you keep telling a child over and over that they are bad and wicked, that child will grow up confused, unhappy and angry! If you do the same thing with an entire population, whilst also trying to wipe out so much of it's history....you'll get the same thing!

We have a Ministry of CULTURE which is more intent on covering this land in Casinos than in preserving it's Ancient Buildings or teaching it's population the wonders of England's Incredible History....and PLEASE...I'm talking both good and bad here.

SHEESH!!!!!

IT TRULY IS **OK** TO BE ENGLISH YOU KNOW!


Albion Lizzie! (NOT a racist!) STEAMING SMILEY!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:34 PM

You still haven't said how Sam is.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: AlexB
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:45 PM

Wow Lizzie, way to ruin a song I enjoyed.

And what is a West Country accent? I didn't think there was just a single one.

The thing about the song is it is too busy moaning about what we have lost, it fails to appreciate what we have. While on some levels I do agree with it, I think that the song is too busy saying, and not focusing so much on doing. Its funny that it was through folk a disillusioned kid began to accept and appreciate England at all. If I'm going to be ashamed about being English, you are the one thats going to make me feel that way.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:06 AM

Is there a confusion of handles here? Mad Person seems to be talking perfect sense, while Lizzie...
Lizzie - re-read what I wrote. My reaction was a subjective one to Knightly's song. I'm not 'anti-English' or anything like that. I happen to think that Maggie Holland and particularly Billy Bragg have a better understanding of the nature of Englishness today.
Much as many would like, there's no point rhapsodising about some prelapsarian idyll when swains swooned, maidens blushed and all was right with the world. It never existed. Your romantic take on that other Eden is the result of a lot of revisionism from the Edwardian period right up to the present. It doesn't actually do Englishness any favours.
The England to which I can relate is the England that gave us Lilburne, Winstanley, Annie Bessant, Elizabeth Fry, Mary Seacole and Quentin Crisp; the England that gave the world the trades union movement, a bill of rights and the concept of parliamentary democracy; the England of the abolitionists and of the Diggers. I don't give a stuff for the romanticised Arhturian twaddle and the Mabel Lucy Atwell packaging or bucolic bliss. Save the flowers and bowers for the National Trust souvenir shops and embrace real Englishness in all its complex and sometimes unpleasant nature.
Lizzie, my dear, you have to accept that fact that, like it or not, you are in the England of Jade Goody and not Goody Two Shoes. Sticking your head in a cloying bowl or rose petals will change nothing, and neither will listening to a whingeing dirge from a pop-folk group.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:25 AM

...forgive my ignorance of what may be an in joke, but who is Sam, and what is his relevance to this?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Sidmouth Grapevine
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:37 AM

How very odd. I could have sworn there were several posts on here last night explaining who Sam Reynolds is. Jointly with Lizzie Cornish, he appears to be the author of an inaccurate, derivative site called Albion Chronicles which has a page devoted to Sam'n'Lizzie, the very epitome of Mabel Lucy Atwell-type bucolic bliss. Many were inquiring what Ms Cornish's husband, one Mr Route of Sidmouth, thought about this.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:05 AM

"WE'VE LOST MORE THAN WE'LL EVER KNOW ROUND THE ROCKY SHORES OF ENGLAND" (taken from 'Roots' by Steve Knightley)


As I write this, I've just heard on the news that at 11.00am today The Ministry of Culture (HA!) will be announcing the site of our first ever, SUPER DUPER, Las Vegas Style Casino, holding over 1,250 machines, bigger than a football pitch....etc..etc..

Apparently, it may be Blackpool, or Cardiff Bay or even Greenwich.

Blackpool? Why there? The whole town is already one HUGE casino isn't it? And besides, it wouldn't stand out enough!

Cardiff Bay? Noooooo...way too far from The Museum and The Castle...again....Why put it there? After all most people go to Cardiff to look at the beautiful City Centre and the shops....

But Greenwich?

NOW THEN! NOW we're talking New Labour turkey aren't we!!!

Hey...we could knock down The National Maritime Museum and put it there! After all....WHAT is the point of Greenwich????? I mean REALLY! In this day and age...DO WE NEED GREENWICH anymore?

Nope!

So..let's set fire to The Cutty Sark! Let's trash and smash The Royal Observatory, The Queen's House, lets raze The National Maritime Museum to the ground at the same time...after all, they're in the same place...In fact, let's wipe out any beauty or history left in Greenwich at all.

No longer will we need to hear about Greenwich Meantime every again...because now..NOW we can call it Greenwich Casinotime!

Yup! We can all put our clocks back and forth every single year whilst we feed those one-armed bandits like there's no tomorrow!

After all WHY would we want this in England?

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/

http://www.greenwich-guide.org.uk/cutty.htm



When we can have THIS?

http://nevada.casinocity.com/lasvegas/


"WE'VE LOST MORE THAN WE'LL EVER KNOW ROUND THE ROCKY SHORES OF ENGLAND" (taken from 'Roots' by Steve Knightley)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:22 AM

Does that include BMW motorbikes and emigrees personal posessions?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:24 AM

From Ginger:

>>>>Lizzie, my dear, you have to accept that fact that, like it or not, you are in the England of Jade Goody and not Goody Two Shoes. Sticking your head in a cloying bowl or rose petals will change nothing, and neither will listening to a whingeing dirge from a pop-folk group.<<<<


The whole point that YOU are missing Ginge is that YOU seem to happily accept that you're living in Jade Goody's England.

I DO NOT! And....I NEVER WILL!

'Roots', in my opinion, is about getting people to open their eyes! To finally look aroud them and decide if they're happy to carry on being Apathetic Anoraks or take a stand and try to change things for the better!

Oh How I loathe this dumbing down!

I find it deeply disturbing, to the point of being sinister! And yet..you tell me that I HAVE to ACCEPT it??? Well blow that for a game of soldiers! SHEESH!!!!

A dumbed-down population is so very easy to control...Add to that a population who have no idea WHO they are or where they've come from, who have no passion for their wonderful history, but who just limp along in Orwell 1984 style, humming their latest 'Tunes For Proles' to the next casino, as they desperately try to win some money to survive and hey...those who seek to control have got it made haven't they!!!

We now live in a country that no longer has decently paid jobs, or manafactures anything, with a housing stock that only the mega-rich can really afford. Most people are too bogged down with stress and anxiety to even WANT to think more deeply about anything, other than how to pay the next bill. And whilst all that is happening...our country and our heritage is disappearing!

The link below is from the BBC thread about 'Roots' when the song was played on Cool As Folk...I still stand by every word I said in Message 3.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825?thread=2495746


We CAN turn this around...but ONLY if enough of us want to.


Lizzie


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Happy to be as I am
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:44 AM

Lizzie

Try posting your views in "Cranks galore!" in the BS section. You will probably find some kindred spirits there. It's tailor made for you.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:38 AM

Lizzie.
Very simple question.
You seem to be having an Internet affair with someone in Canada called "Sam"....(Yes I have seen the web site.....Yuch!)
Surely you should be talking to your husband and children about this sad situation before telling the world about it....
The rest of us don't want to know....
Good luck with your future. .....Oh and don't mention SOH again...They are Crap.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:48 AM

I happen to think SOH are good and I like a lot of their songs. I like Roots too, but I don't consider it their best song. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

What I won't do is to try to persuade everyone else that SOH and their songs are good. If I've mentioned them, people can seek them out and listen to them for themselves if they feel inclined to investigate - that of course is entirely up to them.

I think trying to persuade others by repeatedly saying how great a band or singer is can just have the opposite effect to what is intended.

That's my view and, as I said, I'm entitled to it. Others are entitled to disagree.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:56 AM

Scrump.
I am GUEST just above you.
Well said. SOH are a fine duo... I just can't cope with the deification of them....
For Gods sake, It's just two blokes playing instruments and singing.
How will that change the Iraq conflict????
Very nice.....But,......Get real people.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:02 AM

Exactly Scrump. And anyone is entitled to like or dislike any band, I've never had a problem with that ever. But I'll stand up and defend Show of Hands or anyone else I believe in from the kind of venomous twits who follow me round.

But I DO have a problem with being told that I can't mention Show of Hands.

This all started back on the BBC board with the first ever post I'd ever made, anywhere. And I was attacked then because I'd DARED to mention Show of Hands in a good light. I had no idea of the 'Anti-Show of Hands' feeling amongst a small group of er...English Traddies

I'd only intended to ever post once, but I was so incensed at what was said, by this strange, but small band of people, who follow me around to this day, as you can see...that I stayed and stood up for them.

However, over the years, reading what they've said, it would seem to me that it's Steve Knightley in particular whom they want to 'silence'...and I'm afraid...that I won't let that happen, no matter what they choose to throw at me.

From Ginger....

>>>The England to which I can relate is the England that gave us Lilburne, Winstanley, Annie Bessant, Elizabeth Fry, Mary Seacole and Quentin Crisp; the England that gave the world the trades union movement, a bill of rights and the concept of parliamentary democracy; the England of the abolitionists and of the Diggers. I don't give a stuff for the romanticised Arhturian twaddle and the Mabel Lucy Atwell packaging or bucolic bliss. Save the flowers and bowers for the National Trust souvenir shops and embrace real Englishness in all its complex and sometimes unpleasant nature.<<<


ALBION HEART:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=112261952&MyToken=6d8610fd-a4e7-4f07-b04a-104448092e4e


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:09 AM

>>>>How will that change the Iraq conflict????<<<

Well of course, they did write 'Crooked Man' which I believe was about Bush, Blair and Hussein...and of course Martyn Joseph has also written 'How Did We End Up Here' which you can listen to here:

Martyn Joseph:
http://www.myspace.com/martynjoseph

And then...there's Neil Young...trying so hard in his own way to change things and make people aware, by gathering in protest songs from around the world for them to listen to:

Neil Young:
http://www.neilyoung.com/lwwtoday/lwwsongspage.html

ALL of these songs have the power to make a difference! Because they have the POWER to make people think! And if ENOUGH people start to think as ONE and take to the streets...as they did back in the Vietnam War...in which music played a big part in stopping....THEN things may start to change...

But of course...this time round the music has to come from US!!! Because the BBC and other major radio stations or TV channels now hide protest songs away!

And WHY do you think they do that?????????


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:29 AM

Because we have a de-politicised, self-obsessed culture which doesn't really care about politics or political music, and the media are driven by what their audiences want. Blame America if you want - personally, I blame Thatcher. But in any case, it's not a conspiracy.

So what have you been mobilised and politicised into doing for your culture as a result of listening to Show of Hands, Lizzie? Apart from gabbling on the internet, of course. What real-life action have you been spurred to take because you were inspired by the messages in their songs?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:38 AM

So Ruth. Sam is in Canada and having an affair with Lizzie. When did this happen? Did I miss an episode?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:44 AM

Relax Greenwich! ......for a little while longer anyway....

Manchester just got the Booby Prize!

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/economy/industry/regulation/manchester-host-first-super-casino-$464591.htm


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:45 AM

I think I'm beginning to understand The Archers. The forgetful, Alzheimer-stricken Jack Woolley who hasn't a clue what's going on is actually being played by a typecast match, Mr P Route of Sidmouth, right?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:53 AM

Thank you Ruth - a breath of fresh air!

The real reasons for English deracination have nothing to do with conspiracy, Lizzie; they lie in the educational system, the relentless commercial drive of popular culture and in the smug solipsism encouraged over the past few decades.
As such, I'm afraid no amount of writing in capitals is going to stop your local youths bouncing off the walls at chucking out time and swearing in estuarine English as they queue up for Carina's nighclub. As McNiece put it, "you can break the bloody glass, but you can't hold up the weather."

By the way, the link which was perhaps an answer to my earlier comment about my own heroes just seems to load a jumble of HTML with an embedded version of that wretched song. If there's any text there it's illegible.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:56 AM

Ruth is always a breath of fresh air, but Sam being in Canada is really bad news. The kids miss him so much.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:03 AM

What hope is there for a dairyman with a broken heart? He loves his snowboarding, after all. And there's a lot of snow in Canada.

Poor bloke. He thought he got the cowpat-y end of the stick when I dumped him...he can have no idea what he's in for now.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,billbunter
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:09 AM

I saw Show of Hands live in Germany. Among a bunch of bigger gigs they did a tiny midweek venue. I was staggered by their professionalism. Even though the audience was small they performed as though it was the Albert Hall. I am not a massive fan of their music, some good some mediocre. Live though, amazingly good. Intelligent erudite blokes too.

I think its obvious that the key sentiment of Roots is that England has lost is cultural heritage, perhaps in comparison to the other elements of the UK. The Union Jack line is deliberately emotive and makes a good play on a symbol traditionally associated with the right wing , allying it to a depth of feeling for older better days - certainly not older better right wing days. Its unfair to expect a song to address every postmodernistic issue in age where culture and heritage has been deliberately hijacked for political purposes. If the song stirs up interest and provokes debate perhaps that's good enough. Also a singer has got to sing about what he believes in - that's art. I discussed this briefly with Steve - I got the strong impression he is doing what he believes in. He is certainly doing it well. (And I was sober)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:13 AM

I saw them in Germany ( I am not a fan). Seriously in tune and in time. Couldn't fault them on those grounds at all. Professional, competent.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,billbunter
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:14 AM

woops, that anonymous was me again responding to a critique about Show of Hands being out of tune. Thought I was on another thread. sorry


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:39 AM

Lizzie, you know you weren't banned from the BBC boards because you praised 'Show of Hands'. Don't twist things.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:43 AM

Thanks Bill....at long last, a fair and erudite post about Show of Hands. Very glad you enjoyed them. Their intelligence and integrity was what drew me in as well. :0)

And Ginger, probably best not to mention the Education System to me...being a Home Educator these days. Believe you me I could rant for England, if not the world, about what is happening THERE!

But it's not just the education system is it?

It's everything that surrounds our young people these days.
Footballers such as Beckham, who are paid £5 million a WEEK for 5 years are the new 'heroes'...Pop Idol, Big Brother, "Pubs Where Nobody Sings At All"...Casinos For Culture etc etc...

...and of course....music like this from a young lad called Lil' Chris who's about 11 I think...He's on all the children's TV...even Blue Peter I believe..and you can hear him singing about 'Getting Enough' on his Myspace page...it takes a little while to load I'm afraid...Oh...and notice the cutesy little pink hearts all over the place..to draw the kiddies in...and then..when you've listened to him..sit back and wonder what kind of people are behind this sort of thing..and are wanting to draw our children into this? It's not hard to figure really....

http://www.myspace.com/lilemochris

And THEN you may start to understand why I rant all over the place and why I praise songs like 'Roots' up to the heavens..Because at least Steve Knightley and Phil Beer care and are trying, in their own way to get people to open their eyes and have discussions! Just as is happening on here...and THAT is what a brilliant song does...it opens doors and gets discussion going, no matter how heated it may be..

We're all to blame for what we now have around us, in a way, because we've all passively gone along with it.....

It's up to us though whether we continue to do that isn't it?

Sorry you can't 'see' Albion Heart by the way..shame, I think you may have enjoyed reading some of the links on there....ho hum!


Lizzie


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:58 AM

I'm sick of SOH and Roots. Surely there IS other stuff out there. Love to S and P.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: AlexB
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:59 AM

Lizzie, you know you just sounded like an old timer on one of those "kids today, it wasn't like that when I was a gel." tirades, right?

Culture changes whether we like it or not. Yes, we can fight tooth and nail to try and stop it, and sometimes we'll win, sometimes we'll lose. And there are people who are fight here, for instance everyone who is trying to over the licencing laws so that we can play music more freely. What you are doing, is spouting off a load of hot air. In fact, I'd liken you more to the christian who preaches hate in the name of Jesus and ruins the image of those who actually follow the religion properly.

"We've lost more than we'll ever know"

I bet any culture can claim that, because things are lost and gained all the time practically everywhere.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:03 AM

I'll repeat the question: if SoH's message is so important, and the reason WHY it's important is that it inspires people get up and DO something, what have you been mobilised and politicised into doing for your culture as a result of listening to Show of Hands, Lizzie? What real-life action have you been spurred to take because you were inspired by the messages in their songs?

I don't know if I'd be bragging about myy skills as a home educator if I'd also stated elsewhere that my child left education without a single exam or qualification. In my book, that's tantamount to child abuse.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:34 AM

Careful, Ruth - it's a slippery slope. She'll start by writing to the Daily Mail and it'll end up with this lot.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

Apologies....one slightly off-topic rant coming up. But I have a right to reply to the ill-informed comment below about my daughter.

Don't read if of tender disposition. :0)



>>>I don't know if I'd be bragging about myy skills as a home educator if I'd also stated elsewhere that my child left education without a single exam or qualification. In my book, that's tantamount to child abuse.<<<

I wasn't bragging.

Child abuse is when your child commits suicide Joanie, because they have been so pressured into taking exams that they can no longer think straight! Child abuse is when education ceases to be giving a child a love of learning and becomes something so fearful, so depressing, that the natural 'wanting' to learn is switched off. Home Educators called it 'Educide' Child Abuse is forcing children to learn things which they have no interest in. Child abuse is when teachers pass on the intolerable pressure they are under, from the Government, to their pupils. That pressure grows and grows as the child gets older....until eventually, on top of everything else, the children feel there is no point left in living really. After all if THIS is what happens at the start of your LIFE, what is the REST of it going to be like????

My daughter has two school colleagues who've committed suicide now.
Suicide amongst young people is becoming more and more common!

Our children are bullied by a tyrannical education system that cares not one jot for their souls! It is controlled by politicians, and businessmen who make a fortune out of The National Curriculum. It is also controlled by people who adore tests and examinations and who feel that everyone MUST learn what THEY dictate and do endless exams in those subjects!

BALDERDASH!!!

I have spoken to more children who've been battered by The System than you've had hot dinners Joan!

I've listend to EWO's pouring out their hearts to me, over what is going so wrong within the Education System...I've complained about teachers, many of whom seem to actually DISLIKE children, who feel it is there RIGHT to ritually humililate young people in front of their peers...or scream and shout at them, because again, they think they have a right to do that, purely because they're teachers!

PARDON ME???????????????

A Natural Teacher cares for children. They are able to pass on their love of learning so easily, because they respect the child and the child respects them.

So..NEVER talk to me of child abuse Joan...because every day in every school in this land there are hundreds, maybe even thousands of children who endure it every single day, whilst their parents either know nothing about it, or choose to turn away, because they believe that ONLY TEACHERS know about things...and that without exams you will die!

Well......You don't!

I REMOVED both my children for the daily child abuse they were enduring from some of their teachers and the 'system'

My eldest child CHOSE not to take exams. I have great respect and love for my children and for their wishes.

She is deeply intelligent, kind, spiritual, incredibly interesting and a hugely talented artist (who was told by her art teacher that her work was 'crap' by the way, that was the teacher's word) She also never judges anyone on their exams, because she knows that you can pass an exam, yet still be thick as a brick and not give a damn about learning or understanding anything. She has also had to deal with sad people like yourself Joan who cannot understand anyone who doesn't have or doesn't want to take an exam. She explains it all to them patiently, then steers well clear of the kind of people who judge her like that....and continues on with her love of learning.

10 GCSE's Doth Not A Human Being Make...but...it doth make the corporate education system very rich! And I wonder how many politicians have their fingers in the rich examination business?? Hmmmmm....

More children are damaged by 'education' than I can bear to think about...and it's because of stupid comments like yours, made by people who really don't give a damn, that the situation is allowed to continue, year upon year upon year!

And hey..don't even get me started on the paedophiles who are inside our school system! SHEESH!

And then...THEN you wonder why our children are cracking up all around us! THEN you wonder why they are hugely angry towards adults..why they so often want to drink themselves senseless?

In the next bit I am generalising here, as I realise that many kids ADORE school, but unlike you Joan I ALSO realise that for many children school is pure hell!

Tell me Joan would you take this:

Job Description:

13 years of possible hell await you, with no get out clause.
You'll receive no money for this.
You'll be spoken down to VERY often.
You'll have no right of reply.
You may well be bullied or abused.
You'll be given masses of work to take home each night, on top of your daily work.
You will be tested regularly, with immense pressure put on you to pass.
You MUST wear a hot, tight and uncomfortable uniform at all times.
You cannot remove ties, blazers or jerseys without permission, even in the hottest weather.
Your bathroom facilities will be HELL on earth but no-one will care.
Your dining areas may well be small and cramped, you may well have to eat elsewhere...like under the stairs.
Your holidays will be filled with work too.
You will never be allowed to learn what you WANT, only what you are TOLD and FORCED to learn.
If you are not interested in your work...Tough. There is no choice.
You cannot open a window without permission. Many windows will not open anyway.
You will be in a hot building, filled with glass, with no fans or cooling system and no water easily available to you.
People will constantly report on you and get your parents in to discuss you.
If you have dyslexia you will very often be told you are stupid, lazy or just plain troublesome.

At the end of this we KNOW that you will leave our school system a bright, happy, inspired and grateful young person, filled with the joys of spring....

Please apply to:
The National Education System of England
Dictators R Us House
Wetrulydon'tgiveadamnaboutyou Road
We-Know-Examination-ARE-More-Precious-Than-Life-Upon-Thames
England.


And now back to 'Roots' and a little bit more discussion of the song.

Good though isn't it? Where this song leads people....Amazing actually...


Lizzie


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

I've got to say, Captain...that link has an awful lot in common with some of the posts Mrs Route has made in the past. How interesting.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:56 AM

From Ginger:

>>>Careful, Ruth - it's a slippery slope. She'll start by writing to the Daily Mail and it'll end up with this lot<<<

There you go again...with your National Front ravings Ginger...

And yet..YOU are happy to leave England's flag in their hands...

I think that says far more about you than it does about me.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:00 AM

Even a home-schooled child can take exams. A kid with no qualifications in this country is condemned to a lifetime of McJobs, or a life on the dole. It's not the future I'd want for my child. But if it works for you...


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:08 AM

Blimey Guv.
Never realised that Lizzie was that disfunctional..
Hope she gets some help.... Used to laugh about her antics, and now I feel worried for her and her kids,


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM

>>>Even a home-schooled child can take exams. A kid with no qualifications in this country is condemned to a lifetime of McJobs, or a life on the dole. It's not the future I'd want for my child. But if it works for you...<<<

Gee...is it your schooling that's made you SO ignorant Joan?????? Or Ruth????? Or whatever your name is!

My child chose not to do exams. Of COURSE she can take exams...Let me say this very...slowly.....

You can take exams at ANY time of your life! You do NOT have to take 36 all at one go because the STATE tells you that you must!

Unlike you Joan, my daughter can actually think for herself because she has NOT been brain-washed by the Corporate Education System, which goes hand in hand with the NVQ system and the whole caboodle of "No you can't have this job because those GCSE's mean nothing, you have to have THIS qualification from THIS year, which will cost £500..."

She is a talented artist...and her work is already on sale in Sidmouth. If you had visited my page you'd find her on there...and probably your mouth would drop open in amazement!

I'm afraid she knocks spots off you...

She'd never be spiteful, bitchy, callous, unfeeling, unkind, downright unpleasant, or consider herself to be better than others.

I will not dictate my child's future, she is free to choose her own.

And also, many thousands of people work in McJobs. They are not second-class citizens because of that. Do not belittle people, because in doing that you only belittle yourself.

Thank you

Lizzie


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: AlexB
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:24 AM

"Unlike you Joan, my daughter can actually think for herself because she has NOT been brain-washed by the Corporate Education System, which goes hand in hand with the NVQ system and the whole caboodle of "No you can't have this job because those GCSE's mean nothing, you have to have THIS qualification from THIS year, which will cost £500...""

"Do not belittle people, because in doing that you only belittle yourself."

I think that you should take your own advice Lizzie.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:27 AM

Jesus, I really wished I'd never started this soddin' thread.

I was hoping for some intelligent discussion about the song's lyrics, but this has decended into the usual "Any Song With About The English Liking Themselves Is Racist" crap (just like we have had intimated with Maggie Hollands etc songs), as well as the public thread-hijacking spat LC and countess richard are involved in. Hey girls - keep it to yourselves.

Bollocks to it then - I'm off. Sorry to anyone who tried to make an intelligent contribution. I officially disown this thread.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:32 AM

I don't belittle people with McJobs; I feel sorry for them. My own daughter worked bloody hard for a shitty supermarket chain on the minimum wage for a year before going to university and I have worked on factory floors, farms and building sites.
It's my experience that most people with McJobs don't choose them - they do them because there's no other option. They tend to be the ones without the qualifications.
And as for choosing not to take exams...well, there's a whole lifetime for 'if only's.
There aren't many things in life that I'm proud of, but one was when I took a fellow labourer along to adult literacy classes so he could learn to read. He hadn't been to school (his family were travellers) and he felt crippled by his illiteracy and too ashamed at 23 to admit it, so we both went along to the free Camden council classes together. And there he was happy to dive headlong into that free, fascist corporate education system that you decry. He did his City & Guilds and last I heard he was running his own building business and doing very nicely. And determined that his own kids would go to university.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jones the Steam
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:32 AM

As a Welshman it warms my heart that the bloody English are such a mixed up bunch of tossers.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:39 AM

Diolch, Jonesy
(probably a bloody Gog though!)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: AlexB
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:42 AM

As an English person whose grandparents were Welsh I say, bloody hell, grow up people. English and Welsh both have good points and bad points, just like everyone else


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:48 AM

Very true, Mad Person. The poor buggers have got Tom Jones to live down. I wouldn't mind swapping 'em Posh and Becks for Gavin and Charlotte, though. She's a belting lass - and a better singer!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jones The Steam
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:56 AM

Bloody Gog, is it?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:03 PM

Ay aye - Hwntw am byth, boyo!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,billbunter
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:07 PM

As a Scots person who thinks morris tunes are an expression of deep rooted psychological deprivation I still think an English guy should be able to sing about his flag and suggest its symbolism has been hijacked. I don't much care for Nationalism of any form but it can be expressive of good as well as bad things. From what I've heard of Show of Hands there seems to be a tendency in their lyrics to reflect back on a more glorious age - its always dangerous ground, leaning towards myth and legend, but as I said before the song has provoked debate.

I am happy to sing about Bonnie Prince Charlie, the brotherhood of man and the betrayal of working class principles in a single pub set. Its quite dangerous to see music as an expression of a single world view. I like the tune to 'Land of Hope and Glory' but abhor the sentiments. 'God save the Queen' was apparently a Jacobite hymn. I would like Scotland to be politically independant but I'd still watch the Proms for fun. and because some of the tunes are catchy. Show of Hands were good to watch live even though I prefer Phil Cunningham and Aly Bain


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:50 PM

I wouldn't mind swapping 'em Posh and Becks for Gavin and Charlotte, though. She's a belting lass - and a better singer!

I would swap Posh and Becks for anybody!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:23 PM

So would I Scrump!


From Ginger>>>>He hadn't been to school (his family were travellers) and he felt crippled by his illiteracy and too ashamed at 23 to admit it, so we both went along to the free Camden council classes together. And there he was happy to dive headlong into that free, fascist corporate education system that you decry. He did his City & Guilds and last I heard he was running his own building business and doing very nicely. And determined that his own kids would go to university.<<<<

Great! Good for him. BUT.....

Adult education is VERY different from the one our children are receiving. TOTALLY different environment too. I know, I attended some 'adult' maths classes with my daughter, when first she left school. We were treated with kindness, courtesy and empathy. Cups of tea at 'half time' etc..relaxed friendly, chatty atmosphere, completely conducive to learning. My daughter couldn't believe it. She was so used to teachers yelling at her. There have been two teachers in her life who were inspirational, sadly neither stayed in the system for very long.

All teachers need to do is show the same respect and compassion to children that they show to adults. Of course, being cynical I might assume that teachers are scared witless of being sued by adults if they behaved in the same way as they do with children....but hey..that's just me. ;0)

Sometimes, as with your friend, all it actually takes, is someone to believe in you..and when that happens, miracles can occur. That's something that teachers should all be taught. Natural teachers know it anyway of course, but ones fresh out of Uni or College often don't have a clue.

And Stig, look on the bright side, at least this thread has been revived and I'm completely with you on your point about racism, although I wasn't aware that they'd said the same thing about Maggie Holland's song too.

Bill...you might like Show of Hands 'Cutthroats Crooks and Conmen' as well, another great song.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:25 PM

Funny. My daughter is getting a really good education. She's happy and well-adjusted, with lots of happy, well-adjusted friends. She's been popular with her teachers at every school she's been to - never intimidated, shouted at or bullied.

Just saying.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:30 PM

Stigweard

I assume you are referring to Mrs Route's duplicate thread about this very dirge, which, far from being hijacked, is where I took the opportunity to repeat my far from high opinion of this socially and politically misguided (if not outright dangerous), not to mention musically and lyrically inept, song.

Mrs Route (or Sam's paramour as she may be better known) is as off-topic as usual in her own thread, choosing to pick out some of those she has encountered/harassed before and make up silly stories as fanciful as her cyber fantasies.

Here, she's back on her alarmingly cranky non-theories on education which certainly border on child abuse and which are destined to have far-reaching economic and social consequences for her unfortunate children. Anyone thought of alerting social services?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:34 AM

"And Stig, look on the bright side, at least this thread has been revived"

For what? For you lot to bicker about something completely irrelevant to the original thread title?

"I assume you are referring to Mrs Route's duplicate thread about this very dirge"

No, I am talking about the sort of post this quote is from.

I don't know what your gripe is with LC, or hers with you, but if you could take her and your cronies and feck off to another thread where you can scratch each other's eyes out until your hearts content. Your personal attacks on each other look pureile at best, and frankly it makes for tiring reading.

No wonder English folk is in the state it's in. Is this representative of the pathetic bickering and intolerance that goes on in folk clubs? Thank Christ I never go to one. I play in a session that is in danger of dying on it's arse because the pub has changed hands and the new licencees don't really care for folk music - the people that play there are for the most part are committed indivduals that play the indiginous Isles folk music because we love it. If those licencees read this thread, they'd be rid of us tommorrow.

I am amazed by the intolereance shown in this thread. The idea that if someone likes a song that raises issues of national identity and loss of culture is racist is pathetic, and shows a lack of confidence in your ability to debate a point without resorting to defamation.

Anyone left reading this bilge willing to debate around the squabbling brats? Can we rescue something from this debacle?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 05:04 AM

Session in a mess? Why, just call in Mrs 'lizziecornish' Route to do a Highland Fling, a Riverdance imitation or a blast of Devonish f*lk-tinged, MOR pub rock. Just what English music needs, according to her. Why do you THINK people are pissed off with her?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 05:16 AM

Pathetic.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,DavieEnglish
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:29 PM

Well done countess richard....

Reading the stuff you've written here has made me firmly believe in the Show of Hands track - so much so, that I'm buying the album and going to see them.

Guess what? I'm English - yep English, English, English and there ain't a damn thing you can do to make me change my mind - even with Mr Bragg.

How dare you insinuate that I can't be an Englishman.
How dare you suggest that I can't have my own flag in my own country.
How dare you even suggest that it's wrong for us to have our own culture. It's pathetic to even suggest it's racist.

The song is great and speaks volumes of the current state of English culture. If you don't want to be part of that, great. Stay at home, vote Labour, praise the Scottish(UK)government and watch the BBC. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:14 AM

Nice piece on Roots in today's Independent. I like seeing that Steve & Phil have tackled the thorny issue of people potentially hijacking the lyrics for their own political ends.

Lyrically, however, statements such as: "We've lost more than we'll ever know round the rocky shores of England" is, Knightley and Beer both concede, open to misinterpretation and there is the danger that the Far Right could jump on it. "We always knew it would be a risk," Beer says. "This song is about our experience of playing pubs for the past 25 years," Knightley explains, "but when you talk about reclaiming St George from the Union Jack, and you go to YouTube and look at some of the comments, it's slightly worrying."

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/music/features/article2459288.ece


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: concertina ceol
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:59 AM

Thanks for the link guest keith. A bit of readable prose in amounst the vitriol.

A great song, a great band and someone I can bring non folkies to see knowing they will have a great evening. I read the indi, the guardian and private eye before anyone wants to have a guess ;-)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:02 PM

Talked about, Keith, hardly tackled.

And it's STILL right-wing drivel and offensive to those with so-called 'Estuary' accents.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:47 PM

...offensive to those with so-called 'Estuary' accents.

I have to say that particular line has always got to me as well, since most of my family do speak with one. As did I until the Grammar School "corrected it". I know Steve means "the spread of Estuary English beyond the South East", particularly to the South West, and he explained that again on Bob Harris on Sunday morning. But I just don't hear it that way in the song.

http://www.savefile.com/files/640845

My retaliation is that I'm currently taking elocution lessons from Russell Brand in order to be able to call out for American Pie even more annoyingly next Autumn and will be going to see Don McLean twice when he comes to the UK then just in case SOH still won't play it.

NB I never, ever asked for SOH to play American Pie until they started moaning about it. Thinking about it, I'm at the Bury Met tomorrow night for Phil solo, and last time he DID give me several bars of Duelling Banjos, so I might be lucky...


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 02:37 PM

Leaving aside the merits or demerits of the song, I think Steve has a point about the Estuary English. As I read it, the complaint is not that Estuary English exists or that people speak it. It is that some people in Pompey, Bristol and even Plymouth feel they have to adopt a psuedo Cockney intonation to sound hip. There is bugger all wrong with any of those accents, or indeed the London accents. The issue is that one accent is supposedly OK and another is not. That is a loss of culture. I personally think the Birmingham accent sounds a bit like a cat trying to speak out of the side of its mouth with toffee stuck between its teeth. However, if I ever go to Birmingham and hear some prat trying to say, "Wurz'n gain me 'andsome?" my respect for the city will fall. Brum might not be my favourite, but it is as essential to our culture as all the other parts.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:19 PM

"and it's still right-wing drivel..."
I don't know, Mr Fox... That may be your view, but here's a non-right-winger who doesn't think so, for a start; and I know several others, both in- and out of Mudcat. Does everything we do or say have to have a political purpose? Politics for me is a reflection of life, and a distorted one at that, whose sole reason for existence is to help manage a society. It's not a code of living and shouldn't have to be in our minds all the time, or we are a sorry lot IMHO.

I am proud to be Greek (a Macedonian Greek at that), yet I am able to have many Turkish friends (who in turn are proud to be Turkish) without letting the bile poured by politicians and history poison our relationships. My wife is English and so are many of my best friends, and I want them to be proud of their Englishness. And this pride is not exclusive. It doesn't make us blind to our own shortcomings or those of our respective cultures.

Once, my son came back from his day at his English primary school upset, because some kids said to him "you are not English"; so I told him "Tomorrow when you go to school, tell those kids that you are not only English, but Greek also - you can be both, and proud of both!". You should have seen his face, he never looked back after that. And today both my children, grown up now, are proud for each half of their ancestry. They are not nationalist bigots, quite the opposite (my son married a Russian-Australian, my daughter's three best friends are Chilean, English and Malaysian).

So I have come to detest the way that the English flag was being usurped by bigots, BNPers and so on. I felt that my children were having something stolen away from them.

And you know what? To the extent that I have lived in England for 18 years and am bilingual and bicultural, I too have a certain "pride-by-association" with England.

And I'll be buggered if I am going to let any politically-driven criticism deflect me.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:22 PM

Oh, I should have said: I like the song!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:27 PM

As someone who's lived here for 16 years, George, with a half-English daughter, I agree wholeheartedly. But because of the way that nationalism was co-opted in the 80s by fascists, I think people are simply concerned these days with HOW national pride is expressed, and it's the way in which people interpret this particular song's message, rather than the fundamental sentiment of being proud to be English, that some take exception to.

It is SO easy for national pride to spill over into red-top political sentiment, and it's something I think we still have to be wary of.

Just my thoughts. :)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:44 PM

I know, Joanie, it is indeed very easy for national pride to be misplaced and spill over in ugly ways. The same goes for religion, colour, sex, for being right-handed or heterosexual, and so on. It should make none of these things inherently bad, though, only the people that turn them into reasons for criticising others. So let's be wary of such people, not criticise pride in those things. The reverse leads to PC gone mad; like being called a right-winger simply because I agree with the sentiments of a song that some BNP-stooges tried to claim.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:13 AM

Don't get me wrong, George (and other folks) I actually LIKE SoH (And agree totally with their earlier diatribe 'Country Life'). It's just that one song I can't stand. I think it lurches dangerously towards 'disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' territory and "it's my flag and I want it back" sounds like a Daily Mail headline (Or a child in the playground. Same difference, really).

I am proud of my (Estuary) English roots and love English folk culture. I'm just not a flag-waver and I don't think that the tradition is in as much danger as some people might think.

My family are mostly south London/Kent born and bred and we all speak (like Keith's) with a distinct Estuary accent (And prahd ov it, mate!) and I certainly hear the song as a 'dig' at that way of speaking. The word Steve is looking for is, I think, 'Mockney'.

Erm.....and I think that's it, really.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:26 AM

I think I know what you mean about the song, Mr Fox. It has a jigsaw of cliches, skipping-rope-chant quality to it, especially the refrain; I took it that this was intentionally put together in such a way. Could be wrong of course. I'll agree that "Country Life" is a better song (and Maggie Holland's song is the best in this category).


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 08:47 AM

Interesting article here.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:05 AM

That was the link Keith posted that restarted this thread Peter - thanks for posting again for those who missed it.

I still like the song. When I first heard it I didn't think the song would be interpreted as a right-wing diatribe, more an expression of desire for one of our island's ingenious cultures to reassert itself within the context of a multicultural society, with a great singy-songy chorus for all those of us who like to get singy in the pub on Friday night when bawling out 'When Jones's Ale Was New'.

Similar criticisms about jingosim and exclusivity have been levelled at Maggie Holland's song too in previous threads, and that song is positively inclusive - it's talking about a love of the land itself, a concept that would have not been lost on our ancestors.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Sam Collins
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 11:59 AM

"THE WAY WE LOOK AND THE WAY WE TALK" how is that NOT racist. It can only mean in the context in which it is said that the way we look is white and the way we talk is without a foreign accent.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:04 PM

Pathetic.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:07 PM

Sam, it could be the way we dress, or the way we are fat, short, tall, thin, bearded or not, open-faced or shy, happy or sad etc. You can't assume that such a statement is racist, it is absurd, PC gone mad.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:14 PM

He's either taking the piss or thick as pigshit. Me thinks the former.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:16 PM

Watch it George, I'm fat and bearded! :-))

Yes Stig, it is an expression of desire for.....ingenious cultures to reassert itself within the context of a multicultural society, with a great singy-songy chorus. So was the Horst Wessel Song.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:18 PM

"Ingenious cultures" Ha, Ha , Ha !!!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:40 PM

Ha, ha, ha indeed. Reminds me that I forgot to point at stigweard's 'indigenous ingenuity', though he certainly knows how to spell 'pathetic'. Wonder why. Now, the Horst Wessel Lied has a very fine tune. Not Roots. A dirge is a dirge is a dirge. As for sentiment, I think the HWL is intended to be fascist.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 01:11 PM

"So was the Horst Wessel Song"

Good analogy Mr Fox - another well-argued point and a fair comparison. Got me bang to rights on that one. That gig at the Royal Albert Hall will be like bloody Nuremberg all over again - you can virtually hear the stomp of jackboots as the brainwashed masses troop in!

I commented on you post being pathetic CR because you and Lizzie Cornish hijacked this thread for your public catfight and the whole thing decended into a rather unsightly spat - however justified or not your original grievance against LC.

Keep sniping ladies - long may you continu to evade well-intentioned debate with defamation and sneering.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 01:48 PM

stigweard,

You call any post 'pathetic' when you don't (or think you don't) agree with it.
However, Mrs Route (aka LC and a lot of other pseudonyms) talks (or used to) such wall-to-wall bollocks that constant correction just had to occur.
My 'grievance' with her was for existing, and for opening her stupid mouth. Ever.
She seems to have pissed off to Canada or somewhere. I know nor care not where.
And very many people agree with that.
Not with ME, necessarily, but with my relief that the damaging witch is flown.
Many an artist can breathe again and get on with their careers. Phew.
I don't think you can possibly know just how much she has damaged some musicians . . .

None of which has very much bearing on a debate about a Knightley song.
The fact that LC liked it is neither here nor there as she'd probably rave about SoH singing about the coastal shipping forecast. Actually, she HAS.
I am not exactly alone in having serious political concerns about Roots.
Or musical ones, for that matter.
It's far from being their best song, not that I, personally, like any of them much.
My main gripe against SoH is . . . SoH. Knightley is a competent songwriter and Beer a really good musician. Separately.

And don't EVER call me a 'lady'.
I'm a (sometimes) working journalist who happens to be a woman, and have been for 40 years.
Fuck your 'well-intentioned' debate.
I deal in facts, and use them.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:00 PM

And we all know how accurate jounalists are, don't we children? We know we haven't been fed utter drivel by many a jounalist over the years. And none of them are right wing fascists feeding their bile to us nor tell us there's a 'Lancaster Bomber found on the Moon' .

My heart and thoughts do however go out to Alan Johnston - now there's a journalist.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:25 PM

What the fuck has Alan Johnston, a World Service reporter currently lost in Gaza, got to do with music journalism?
It is an absolute disgrace that you choose to use this poor bloke's situation to attempt to push (with no success whatsoever thanks to your totally muddled thought processes) your entirely incomprehensible viewpoint.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Earl
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:37 PM

Now Countess R - it has long been my belief that the use of the F word (and others) only shows the lack of vocabulary of the person using such language.

You say you are a journalist so presumably you are more than capable of finding words in English to make your point (whether I agree or not).

Please do me, yourself and the rest of us a favour and desist from using such language - it's hardly ladylike is it?

Dave


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:40 PM

Oh my! Such lovely rhetoric as usual. A reporter is not a journalist then??
I did say that my heart and thoughts go out to him, that is genuine and heartfelt and I really hope the outcome is positive.

Your rants on the otherhand make my hair curl. As a journalist I presume you have met many people - I apologise if you haven't. I just wonder if you treat them all with such disdain when you either meet them face to face or write about them? Due you rant on about their use of english I wonder?

Ho - hum. I'm bored!!
John Barden


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:41 PM

Fuck off Dave.
And I ain't no lady.
Don't you READ previous posts?
I'm a (sometimes) working journlist.
So fuck off.
OK?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:45 PM

You know my father always said that when people started using the sort of words that Countess Richard is now using, they are the poorer for it. Sort of reminds me of 'The Sun' at its worst.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM

You know, I'm beginning to get the "sometimes" bit.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:15 PM

Nice one Richard Bridge. It made me laugh anyway


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:22 PM

You're probably in a strop cos many more than me are showing you up as racist, narrow-minded shits.
Ahhhhhhh!
Why would I care what your father said?
I'm a working (when I can) woman, not the kind of 'lady' such a sexist dynosaur would like to squash under his boot.
Go and play your SoH shit to yourselves if it takes your fancy.
Then fuck off.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:30 PM

My word I don't think I've come across such a man hater before. Each to their own countess richard; each to their own.

How on earth you come to the conclusion that I'm racist is beyond me. Perhaps your profound knowledge of the English language endows you with some third eye that enables you to see into my very soul. Wrong I'm afraid. Return it and demand your money back


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:37 PM

Who, exactly, is this 'Guest'?
I thought I was taking to the ever so old fashioned John Barden.
Me a 'man hater'?
Ah no. I just dislike intensely a vast number of vile human beings.
You might as well fuck off too.
Whoever you are.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Earl
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:16 PM

I rest my case.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:32 PM

Not me countess richard. Been watching Joni Mitchell on BBC Four, and a bit of Robyn Hitchcock.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:40 PM

Eh?
Who's Robyn Hitchcock anyway?
(Good grief, sounds dodgy).
This thread is so pointlessly bizarre I feel I must sprint to the pub.
I do hope the television's not on.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:44 PM

My father was one of the Monty's Desert Rats and fought up and down the desert, onto Sicily and then up through Italy until he was badly wounded and shipped back home in 1944 to see his son, who was four years old, for the first time. He was fighting the very same fascists that you quite rightly attack and I would never forsake his memory for that cause be assured.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: growler
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:47 PM

John, I'm with you on that, My Dad was in the eighth army, at that time, and I hold his memory dear


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 04:39 AM

"Fuck your 'well-intentioned' debate"

It's nice to see that the standard of wordsmith attracted to journalism is as high as ever. Which illustrious organs do you write for? Wouldn't be the Daily Mail by any chance?

All of us with family who fought and died in the war take exception to being called facists - the consquences of that conflict are still with many people today. It's all too easy to hurl words like that around as we've seen, but it's a cheap shot and reminds me of one or two who used to frequent this site and used the same tactic.

Seen as well-intentioned debate is fucked here, time to abandon thread to her ladyship et al.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:17 AM

Hmmmmm, as I wrote in the 'let's give a platform to those nice racists and fascists' thread:
Don't.
It's not 'well-intended debate'.
It's dangerous and misguided.
Anyway, stigweard, who the fuck called you a fascist? No-one that I can see. You're not Norman Tebbit with a silly handle, are you?
And, as I also said in the other thread, I intend to remain free to think and say and write what I like.
So I'll say 'fuck' when I want. It's only four letters and you can spell it. Unlike 'fasCist'.

Fasces (Latin): a bundle of sticks tied round an axe.
Fascismo - a term coined by Benito Mussolini


This inordinately long thread is supposed to be about a SONG (and not a very good one). OK, you like it. You can listen to it. Do you really imagine a government housed in an English parliament led by this show of tossers would let you? Do you?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Earl
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:46 AM

Yet again we have an example of the language used by "I'm a (sometimes) working journlist".

A thought occurs to me. Why only sometimes?

Could it be that there is not much demand for a journalist (note my spelling) who uses that style of writing?

I can't imagine any publication that I might buy wanting an article written using that language/style.

Please be aware CR that I have been insulted and slagged off in better style and in better English than you have ever managed in postings I have seen on this forum.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:56 AM

Oh dear.
The man in the silly hat strolls by again.
Who's insulted and slagged you off then?
Not me, I've hardly noticed you but you chose to insult ME by referring to me as a 'lady'.
Since you ask, I 'sometimes' do any number of things, including writing, and 'sometimes' nothing.
By choice, you see.
I'm a) a freelance and b) retired.
Though I can't imagine of what relevance any of this is.
Haven't you anything better to do?
I have and it doesn't include listening to SoH.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Earl
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:01 AM

Call me over sensative if you like but :-

"Fuck off Dave.
And I ain't no lady.
Don't you READ previous posts?
I'm a (sometimes) working journlist.
So fuck off.
OK?"
is hardly a compliment.

As it happens I am at work (and have been since 07:00 this morning).

I can multitask when it suits me.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:11 AM

I'd NEVER call you 'sensative' (or even sensitive).
But don't let me keep you from your McJob (are you playing Roots and other MOR garbage?)
Just quit telling what I can say and write.
Unless and until Tebbit and his Freedom Association crew take over I'm free to do and say what I like.
Now fuck off.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Earl
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:24 AM

Spelling error competion =

CR 1 Me 1 result a draw.

You probably don't want to know but I am working in a Concert Hall where the music comes from across the whole range from Classical through MOR to pop/rock and occasionally folk type stuff.

I am not trying to tell you what to write/say I am just suggesting that you might get a less antagonistic response if you were to moderate your language.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:54 AM

You may as well try to plait sand, Dave. There are people that actualy produce things, be they art, literature or music and there are those who critisise said works. Those who make a living by reviewing other peoples work and telling everyone else what to think are not worth worth arguing with. They will often wield clever words and phrases that make people think they are producing works of art themselves but all they ever create is dischord and unrest. I do not think I am being overly harsh in saying that the media have played a huge role in todays hatred of the west by fundementalist Moslems and vice versca. Somtime press can create their own wars. Sometimes.

Dave.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:08 AM

(closes eyes) One.... two.....


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Earl
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:30 AM

Well I suppose I should know better.

I have crossed paths (and swords) with CR elsewhere in the past.

It seems that from the Ms Easby standpoint the rest of the world has got it wrong and only she has the right answer. I can live with that as a concept (not accept it though)but I find the bad language unpleasant and prefer not to hear such things etc from anyone (man/woman or lady/gent if you prefer).

It seems to me that if someone is cofident enough in thier beliefs they should be able to justify whatever it is without the use of bad language.

Now if herself doesn't agree with me (she doesn't have to)I'll just let things rest leave her to her own devices.

That doesn't equate to doing what she is fond of telling people to do.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 09:19 AM

Firstly, I will use whatever language I please to express what I have to say.
I do have a lot to choose from and tend to tailor it to suit the audience,
As it goes, I'm not overkeen on the language you employ, finding it patronising, sexist, outdated, overbearing and crass.
All that's really getting up some of your noses (the SoH fanbase) is that I have two major criticisms of the song Roots.
I said when it first emerged (well over a year ago) that it was musically mediocre and lyrically, a rant bordering on the racist.
Some of the 'rest of the world' agree with me, others (including yourselves) apparently do not.
So fucking what? It's only a song.
Nobody in the present political climate is preventing you from listening to it, nor indeed forcing me to hear it.
I am not expressing 'my beliefs' in the form of language you prissily shy from, but my disdain for your idiotic male chauvinism.
Someone somewhere called me a 'man hater'. As a matter of fact I know not whether some of you are male or not. It's just that you act like a shower of pricks lacking the ability for constructive thought and hunting your quarry in a mindless, baying pack.

Goodbye, little boys.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Earl
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 09:36 AM

When did I express an opinion on Roots? As it happens I have not heard it so I have no comment to make.

My issue was what I said it to be - the use of the F word by someone who I think doesn't need to use it.

You tailor your language to suit the situation do you? Hm

Think on! Think on!

Dave


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 09:58 AM

You haven't heard Roots?
Well lucky you, but what the fuck are you doing posting in a thread of which it's the subject?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Earl
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:02 AM

Second line of my previous post - please read

Dave


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:17 AM

So you are a self-appointed member of the Fuck Police?
YOU think I 'don't need to' write in the way I do?
I write to topic.
Example: The only thing I don't like about SoH is . . . SoH.
Knightley is an adequate songwriter, Beer a really good musician . . . blah blah blah . . .

YOU stick your nose into threads about which you are spectacularly unqualified to comment.
Think I know who's breaching netiquette here.
Sod off.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Earl
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:23 AM

Still not impressed.

Thank you for your lack of consideration.

Leaving now

I have a life and friends.

Goodbye

Dave


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:24 AM

If you are not one of the almost 30,000 that have now seen the video, here it is again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5h4PFBuzvw

On the "racist" thing, Steve Knightley actually did tackle those issues here, in his chat with Mike Harding on Wednesday. The interview is only 4 minutes long. It is worth hearing him explain it in his own words. It is on listen again until this Wednesday coming. It is around 10 -15 minutes in if I remeber right.

I shall continue to give him stick on the "Estuary English" barb though...and a rather good song about Buddy Holly.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:24 AM

Hey, thought this might amuse:

Who are you listening to at the moment?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:40 AM

Diane, no I don't think Cruel River will be quite your thing. Well, perhaps other than the Mark Knopfler song on it.

I think you might like what is in Phil Beer's upcoming box set though. I think that box is a Knightley-free zone but I couldn't swear to that.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:46 AM

Hi Keith, yes, saving my pennies for the Phil box.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:53 AM

Keep an eye out here then

http://www.chudleighroots.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,sailorboy
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 08:23 AM

Just appeared on Phil Beers tour diary!!


And so to a busy day at Norden Farm arts Centre. We sold the evening show a couple of weeks ago and put in a matinee for four in the afternoon. This was in the studio theatre. We couldn't move over to the main auditorium because there was another show on. When we got there we discovered that the main event was a day of indian dance for youngsters featuring both traditional and film style dance. The large and partly communal backstage area was a riot of colour and exuberance as groups of kids practised and sorted their glorious costumes out and, as I put on my plain black trousers and a fresh black shirt and polished (you guessed it) the black guitar, I was struck once again by the contrast between what I 'm doing and what these kids were involved in. They were all born around Maidenhead/Slough/Reading but were full bloodedly celebrating culture from their parents homeland. They were up for it, wanted to do it and were having a ball doing it. I had a chat with some of the mums and took some pictures. The kids came to see the guitars and fiddles. As I did my thing I was aware of all this going on the other side of the door. (Quite inspiring really) My knowledge of our musical traditions only came about by a series of happy accidents and by being in the right places at the right time. What if I hadn't come across Davy Grahams 'Folk Blues and beyond' when I was fourteen, What if Katy Fincham hadn't become fascinated by the English concertina and taken me to The Jolly Porter Folk club. What if Pete and Mike Gaskell hadn't started the Double Locks club and booked people like Cyril Tawney and their very own Bob Cann. (Sticklepath boys).
We've lost more than we'll ever know etc etc
Anyway. Great gigs. Miranda was as always superb and Isambarde made a host of new friends. Thanks Mike and Ruth. Onwards and upwards!! See you at Nettlebed


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Sam Collins
Date: 01 May 07 - 12:53 PM

"except for the bullets, except for the guns, except for the youth thats gone" michael Franti and Spearhead, Light Uh Ya Lighter, "your net profit stats speak of murderous facts" The Coup, piss on your grave "they ain't teachin' us how to get crack out of the ghetto" Dead Prez, they Schools, "New world Water make the tide run high, run inland make your house go by" Mos Def, New World Water "Where are the weapons of mass Desruction" The Perceptionists, Memorial Day "Television, tell a lie vision, a schism, Negative realism" Pete Rock and C.L. smooth, Anger in the Nation.
I think Show of Hands complain about American rap because they can actually write good rather than farcial political songs about things   that are actually currentely relevent to society. But I suppose blacks arn't "THE WAY WE LOOK" so they shouldn't be listened too.

A masterace of farmers will reign supreme, burn the urbanites in their apartment blocks. Comit incest, hunt foxes, only trust your fellow tweedites, protect our heritige.


ok i'm taking the piss now but my previous comments stands this song is still racist( "The way we look and the way we talk")


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 02 May 07 - 05:24 AM

Any of you lot coming to Pocklington on thursday to see Steve Knightley perform then? See you there!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 May 07 - 05:43 AM

OK, Sam, I answered your point about racism but you shose to ignore my answer and still keep trying to play the color card. Fair enough, your life, you clearly won't be persuaded...

But don't give me American rap "relevence(sic) to society". Not only me at 54, but my daughter at 21 and son at 25 find bugger all relevance in the rhymes-for-the-sake-of-rhymes or the pseudopolitical sloganeering (I quote back at you the examples you mentioned in your last message). Sorry, mate, slogans without thought and no ideals isn't politics - it's only aimless anger.

And while I accept that American rap does indeed express the anger of many (mainly Americans), it has zero relevance to those people the rapper wouldn't recognise if he/she bumped into: the ordinary folks, the taxi driver and the waitress, the newspaper seller and the garbage collector. No farms or farmers, so don't go on about that - and no big shareholders or company owners either. Just ordinary people. But they are the majority. They don't own guns, they don't get mixed in crime, they don't trash Heathrow airport because they were not upgraded to the 1st class lounge (rap with relevance to the real world, gimme a break!). And they deserve a voice that is relevant to them.

Rap, with its bling, posturing and posing, is not that voice. Punk might have been, once; folk might be sometimes. But rap isn't it. Not for them. Not for me. Not for the vast majority of people I know.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 May 07 - 06:14 AM

Of all the bits of Roots that might (even though this may not have been the intention) be construed as racist, 'the way we look and the way we talk' is not one of them because it is precisely this of which Knightley says: 'we learn to be ashamed before we walk'.

What he means (or what I take this to mean) is how mainstream education has taught a generation of English school children to disown and ridicule their own cultural inheritance. What's wrong with Roots is that it's just a rant which offers no solutions on how to overcome this peculiarly English trait. We haven't 'LOST more than we'll ever know off the rocky shores of England' because children can be, and are, being taught to value what's been hidden from them and, eventually, given the courage to add to it as well as to many other areas of cultural expression.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 07 - 08:25 PM

I quite like the sound of Countess Richard. You tell 'em love! X


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 May 07 - 12:20 AM

Patronising git.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 07 - 05:10 AM

How sad - somebody says something nice to you "Countess", and you throw it back in his/her face.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 May 07 - 05:33 AM

Whatever happened to the automatic zapping of unidentified Guests?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Patronising git.
Date: 03 May 07 - 06:05 AM

What a disappointingly anticlimactic reply! I still like you though. And thanks for the new soubriquet. X


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 May 07 - 04:42 PM

Hate to interupt this little lovers' tiff but can I say something about "Roots"?

I'm sure that Show of Hands intentions were good if a little naive but the Rabid Right can and will latch onto that sort of thing so you have to be careful. See, for instance, this.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Patronising git.
Date: 03 May 07 - 06:55 PM

Ah yes, the thread. "Roots" is mediocre and posey fayre but I agree with the snail- I'm sure they meant no harm.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,noabawby
Date: 15 May 07 - 10:58 AM

We're agreed then? Steve Knightly won't be joining the BNP any time soon?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 May 07 - 12:33 PM

I don't think anyone has suggested he would but that's not to say that the BNP wouldn't seize on Roots to use for their own purposes.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 06:04 PM

Why do you keep repeating the words? this is the fourth time now, once was quite sufficient, or is it that you think, the more you repeat it, the more people will like it?

Ah yes, the thread. "Roots" is mediocre and posey fayre but I agree with the snail- I'm sure they meant no harm.

Individually good musicians etc. but together they sound more ' pop ' than anything else.

It's just that one song I can't stand. I think it lurches dangerously towards 'disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' territory and "it's my flag and I want it back" sounds like a Daily Mail headline (Or a child in the playground.


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Subject: John Tams - rewrite of Manchester Rambler
From: GUEST,Swaleman
Date: 10 May 12 - 10:14 AM

Does anyone have the chords for the rewritten version of The Manchester Rambler by John Tams? The lyrics were kindly provided by 'The Borchester Echo' in July 06 but the chord sequence is so much different from the original. Thanks for any assistance.


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