Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Earl
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:37 PM

Now Countess R - it has long been my belief that the use of the F word (and others) only shows the lack of vocabulary of the person using such language.

You say you are a journalist so presumably you are more than capable of finding words in English to make your point (whether I agree or not).

Please do me, yourself and the rest of us a favour and desist from using such language - it's hardly ladylike is it?

Dave

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:25 PM

What the fuck has Alan Johnston, a World Service reporter currently lost in Gaza, got to do with music journalism?
It is an absolute disgrace that you choose to use this poor bloke's situation to attempt to push (with no success whatsoever thanks to your totally muddled thought processes) your entirely incomprehensible viewpoint.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:00 PM

And we all know how accurate jounalists are, don't we children? We know we haven't been fed utter drivel by many a jounalist over the years. And none of them are right wing fascists feeding their bile to us nor tell us there's a 'Lancaster Bomber found on the Moon' .

My heart and thoughts do however go out to Alan Johnston - now there's a journalist.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 01:48 PM

stigweard,

You call any post 'pathetic' when you don't (or think you don't) agree with it.
However, Mrs Route (aka LC and a lot of other pseudonyms) talks (or used to) such wall-to-wall bollocks that constant correction just had to occur.
My 'grievance' with her was for existing, and for opening her stupid mouth. Ever.
She seems to have pissed off to Canada or somewhere. I know nor care not where.
And very many people agree with that.
Not with ME, necessarily, but with my relief that the damaging witch is flown.
Many an artist can breathe again and get on with their careers. Phew.
I don't think you can possibly know just how much she has damaged some musicians . . .

None of which has very much bearing on a debate about a Knightley song.
The fact that LC liked it is neither here nor there as she'd probably rave about SoH singing about the coastal shipping forecast. Actually, she HAS.
I am not exactly alone in having serious political concerns about Roots.
Or musical ones, for that matter.
It's far from being their best song, not that I, personally, like any of them much.
My main gripe against SoH is . . . SoH. Knightley is a competent songwriter and Beer a really good musician. Separately.

And don't EVER call me a 'lady'.
I'm a (sometimes) working journalist who happens to be a woman, and have been for 40 years.
Fuck your 'well-intentioned' debate.
I deal in facts, and use them.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 01:11 PM

"So was the Horst Wessel Song"

Good analogy Mr Fox - another well-argued point and a fair comparison. Got me bang to rights on that one. That gig at the Royal Albert Hall will be like bloody Nuremberg all over again - you can virtually hear the stomp of jackboots as the brainwashed masses troop in!

I commented on you post being pathetic CR because you and Lizzie Cornish hijacked this thread for your public catfight and the whole thing decended into a rather unsightly spat - however justified or not your original grievance against LC.

Keep sniping ladies - long may you continu to evade well-intentioned debate with defamation and sneering.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:40 PM

Ha, ha, ha indeed. Reminds me that I forgot to point at stigweard's 'indigenous ingenuity', though he certainly knows how to spell 'pathetic'. Wonder why. Now, the Horst Wessel Lied has a very fine tune. Not Roots. A dirge is a dirge is a dirge. As for sentiment, I think the HWL is intended to be fascist.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:18 PM

"Ingenious cultures" Ha, Ha , Ha !!!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:16 PM

Watch it George, I'm fat and bearded! :-))

Yes Stig, it is an expression of desire for.....ingenious cultures to reassert itself within the context of a multicultural society, with a great singy-songy chorus. So was the Horst Wessel Song.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:14 PM

He's either taking the piss or thick as pigshit. Me thinks the former.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:07 PM

Sam, it could be the way we dress, or the way we are fat, short, tall, thin, bearded or not, open-faced or shy, happy or sad etc. You can't assume that such a statement is racist, it is absurd, PC gone mad.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:04 PM

Pathetic.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Sam Collins
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 11:59 AM

"THE WAY WE LOOK AND THE WAY WE TALK" how is that NOT racist. It can only mean in the context in which it is said that the way we look is white and the way we talk is without a foreign accent.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:05 AM

That was the link Keith posted that restarted this thread Peter - thanks for posting again for those who missed it.

I still like the song. When I first heard it I didn't think the song would be interpreted as a right-wing diatribe, more an expression of desire for one of our island's ingenious cultures to reassert itself within the context of a multicultural society, with a great singy-songy chorus for all those of us who like to get singy in the pub on Friday night when bawling out 'When Jones's Ale Was New'.

Similar criticisms about jingosim and exclusivity have been levelled at Maggie Holland's song too in previous threads, and that song is positively inclusive - it's talking about a love of the land itself, a concept that would have not been lost on our ancestors.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 08:47 AM

Interesting article here.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:26 AM

I think I know what you mean about the song, Mr Fox. It has a jigsaw of cliches, skipping-rope-chant quality to it, especially the refrain; I took it that this was intentionally put together in such a way. Could be wrong of course. I'll agree that "Country Life" is a better song (and Maggie Holland's song is the best in this category).

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:13 AM

Don't get me wrong, George (and other folks) I actually LIKE SoH (And agree totally with their earlier diatribe 'Country Life'). It's just that one song I can't stand. I think it lurches dangerously towards 'disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' territory and "it's my flag and I want it back" sounds like a Daily Mail headline (Or a child in the playground. Same difference, really).

I am proud of my (Estuary) English roots and love English folk culture. I'm just not a flag-waver and I don't think that the tradition is in as much danger as some people might think.

My family are mostly south London/Kent born and bred and we all speak (like Keith's) with a distinct Estuary accent (And prahd ov it, mate!) and I certainly hear the song as a 'dig' at that way of speaking. The word Steve is looking for is, I think, 'Mockney'.

Erm.....and I think that's it, really.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:44 PM

I know, Joanie, it is indeed very easy for national pride to be misplaced and spill over in ugly ways. The same goes for religion, colour, sex, for being right-handed or heterosexual, and so on. It should make none of these things inherently bad, though, only the people that turn them into reasons for criticising others. So let's be wary of such people, not criticise pride in those things. The reverse leads to PC gone mad; like being called a right-winger simply because I agree with the sentiments of a song that some BNP-stooges tried to claim.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:27 PM

As someone who's lived here for 16 years, George, with a half-English daughter, I agree wholeheartedly. But because of the way that nationalism was co-opted in the 80s by fascists, I think people are simply concerned these days with HOW national pride is expressed, and it's the way in which people interpret this particular song's message, rather than the fundamental sentiment of being proud to be English, that some take exception to.

It is SO easy for national pride to spill over into red-top political sentiment, and it's something I think we still have to be wary of.

Just my thoughts. :)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:22 PM

Oh, I should have said: I like the song!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:19 PM

"and it's still right-wing drivel..."
I don't know, Mr Fox... That may be your view, but here's a non-right-winger who doesn't think so, for a start; and I know several others, both in- and out of Mudcat. Does everything we do or say have to have a political purpose? Politics for me is a reflection of life, and a distorted one at that, whose sole reason for existence is to help manage a society. It's not a code of living and shouldn't have to be in our minds all the time, or we are a sorry lot IMHO.

I am proud to be Greek (a Macedonian Greek at that), yet I am able to have many Turkish friends (who in turn are proud to be Turkish) without letting the bile poured by politicians and history poison our relationships. My wife is English and so are many of my best friends, and I want them to be proud of their Englishness. And this pride is not exclusive. It doesn't make us blind to our own shortcomings or those of our respective cultures.

Once, my son came back from his day at his English primary school upset, because some kids said to him "you are not English"; so I told him "Tomorrow when you go to school, tell those kids that you are not only English, but Greek also - you can be both, and proud of both!". You should have seen his face, he never looked back after that. And today both my children, grown up now, are proud for each half of their ancestry. They are not nationalist bigots, quite the opposite (my son married a Russian-Australian, my daughter's three best friends are Chilean, English and Malaysian).

So I have come to detest the way that the English flag was being usurped by bigots, BNPers and so on. I felt that my children were having something stolen away from them.

And you know what? To the extent that I have lived in England for 18 years and am bilingual and bicultural, I too have a certain "pride-by-association" with England.

And I'll be buggered if I am going to let any politically-driven criticism deflect me.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 02:37 PM

Leaving aside the merits or demerits of the song, I think Steve has a point about the Estuary English. As I read it, the complaint is not that Estuary English exists or that people speak it. It is that some people in Pompey, Bristol and even Plymouth feel they have to adopt a psuedo Cockney intonation to sound hip. There is bugger all wrong with any of those accents, or indeed the London accents. The issue is that one accent is supposedly OK and another is not. That is a loss of culture. I personally think the Birmingham accent sounds a bit like a cat trying to speak out of the side of its mouth with toffee stuck between its teeth. However, if I ever go to Birmingham and hear some prat trying to say, "Wurz'n gain me 'andsome?" my respect for the city will fall. Brum might not be my favourite, but it is as essential to our culture as all the other parts.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:47 PM

...offensive to those with so-called 'Estuary' accents.

I have to say that particular line has always got to me as well, since most of my family do speak with one. As did I until the Grammar School "corrected it". I know Steve means "the spread of Estuary English beyond the South East", particularly to the South West, and he explained that again on Bob Harris on Sunday morning. But I just don't hear it that way in the song.

http://www.savefile.com/files/640845

My retaliation is that I'm currently taking elocution lessons from Russell Brand in order to be able to call out for American Pie even more annoyingly next Autumn and will be going to see Don McLean twice when he comes to the UK then just in case SOH still won't play it.

NB I never, ever asked for SOH to play American Pie until they started moaning about it. Thinking about it, I'm at the Bury Met tomorrow night for Phil solo, and last time he DID give me several bars of Duelling Banjos, so I might be lucky...

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:02 PM

Talked about, Keith, hardly tackled.

And it's STILL right-wing drivel and offensive to those with so-called 'Estuary' accents.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: concertina ceol
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:59 AM

Thanks for the link guest keith. A bit of readable prose in amounst the vitriol.

A great song, a great band and someone I can bring non folkies to see knowing they will have a great evening. I read the indi, the guardian and private eye before anyone wants to have a guess ;-)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:14 AM

Nice piece on Roots in today's Independent. I like seeing that Steve & Phil have tackled the thorny issue of people potentially hijacking the lyrics for their own political ends.

Lyrically, however, statements such as: "We've lost more than we'll ever know round the rocky shores of England" is, Knightley and Beer both concede, open to misinterpretation and there is the danger that the Far Right could jump on it. "We always knew it would be a risk," Beer says. "This song is about our experience of playing pubs for the past 25 years," Knightley explains, "but when you talk about reclaiming St George from the Union Jack, and you go to YouTube and look at some of the comments, it's slightly worrying."

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/music/features/article2459288.ece

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,DavieEnglish
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 07:29 PM

Well done countess richard....

Reading the stuff you've written here has made me firmly believe in the Show of Hands track - so much so, that I'm buying the album and going to see them.

Guess what? I'm English - yep English, English, English and there ain't a damn thing you can do to make me change my mind - even with Mr Bragg.

How dare you insinuate that I can't be an Englishman.
How dare you suggest that I can't have my own flag in my own country.
How dare you even suggest that it's wrong for us to have our own culture. It's pathetic to even suggest it's racist.

The song is great and speaks volumes of the current state of English culture. If you don't want to be part of that, great. Stay at home, vote Labour, praise the Scottish(UK)government and watch the BBC. ;-)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 05:16 AM

Pathetic.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 05:04 AM

Session in a mess? Why, just call in Mrs 'lizziecornish' Route to do a Highland Fling, a Riverdance imitation or a blast of Devonish f*lk-tinged, MOR pub rock. Just what English music needs, according to her. Why do you THINK people are pissed off with her?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:34 AM

"And Stig, look on the bright side, at least this thread has been revived"

For what? For you lot to bicker about something completely irrelevant to the original thread title?

"I assume you are referring to Mrs Route's duplicate thread about this very dirge"

No, I am talking about the sort of post this quote is from.

I don't know what your gripe is with LC, or hers with you, but if you could take her and your cronies and feck off to another thread where you can scratch each other's eyes out until your hearts content. Your personal attacks on each other look pureile at best, and frankly it makes for tiring reading.

No wonder English folk is in the state it's in. Is this representative of the pathetic bickering and intolerance that goes on in folk clubs? Thank Christ I never go to one. I play in a session that is in danger of dying on it's arse because the pub has changed hands and the new licencees don't really care for folk music - the people that play there are for the most part are committed indivduals that play the indiginous Isles folk music because we love it. If those licencees read this thread, they'd be rid of us tommorrow.

I am amazed by the intolereance shown in this thread. The idea that if someone likes a song that raises issues of national identity and loss of culture is racist is pathetic, and shows a lack of confidence in your ability to debate a point without resorting to defamation.

Anyone left reading this bilge willing to debate around the squabbling brats? Can we rescue something from this debacle?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:30 PM

Stigweard

I assume you are referring to Mrs Route's duplicate thread about this very dirge, which, far from being hijacked, is where I took the opportunity to repeat my far from high opinion of this socially and politically misguided (if not outright dangerous), not to mention musically and lyrically inept, song.

Mrs Route (or Sam's paramour as she may be better known) is as off-topic as usual in her own thread, choosing to pick out some of those she has encountered/harassed before and make up silly stories as fanciful as her cyber fantasies.

Here, she's back on her alarmingly cranky non-theories on education which certainly border on child abuse and which are destined to have far-reaching economic and social consequences for her unfortunate children. Anyone thought of alerting social services?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:25 PM

Funny. My daughter is getting a really good education. She's happy and well-adjusted, with lots of happy, well-adjusted friends. She's been popular with her teachers at every school she's been to - never intimidated, shouted at or bullied.

Just saying.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:23 PM

So would I Scrump!


From Ginger>>>>He hadn't been to school (his family were travellers) and he felt crippled by his illiteracy and too ashamed at 23 to admit it, so we both went along to the free Camden council classes together. And there he was happy to dive headlong into that free, fascist corporate education system that you decry. He did his City & Guilds and last I heard he was running his own building business and doing very nicely. And determined that his own kids would go to university.<<<<

Great! Good for him. BUT.....

Adult education is VERY different from the one our children are receiving. TOTALLY different environment too. I know, I attended some 'adult' maths classes with my daughter, when first she left school. We were treated with kindness, courtesy and empathy. Cups of tea at 'half time' etc..relaxed friendly, chatty atmosphere, completely conducive to learning. My daughter couldn't believe it. She was so used to teachers yelling at her. There have been two teachers in her life who were inspirational, sadly neither stayed in the system for very long.

All teachers need to do is show the same respect and compassion to children that they show to adults. Of course, being cynical I might assume that teachers are scared witless of being sued by adults if they behaved in the same way as they do with children....but hey..that's just me. ;0)

Sometimes, as with your friend, all it actually takes, is someone to believe in you..and when that happens, miracles can occur. That's something that teachers should all be taught. Natural teachers know it anyway of course, but ones fresh out of Uni or College often don't have a clue.

And Stig, look on the bright side, at least this thread has been revived and I'm completely with you on your point about racism, although I wasn't aware that they'd said the same thing about Maggie Holland's song too.

Bill...you might like Show of Hands 'Cutthroats Crooks and Conmen' as well, another great song.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:50 PM

I wouldn't mind swapping 'em Posh and Becks for Gavin and Charlotte, though. She's a belting lass - and a better singer!

I would swap Posh and Becks for anybody!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,billbunter
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:07 PM

As a Scots person who thinks morris tunes are an expression of deep rooted psychological deprivation I still think an English guy should be able to sing about his flag and suggest its symbolism has been hijacked. I don't much care for Nationalism of any form but it can be expressive of good as well as bad things. From what I've heard of Show of Hands there seems to be a tendency in their lyrics to reflect back on a more glorious age - its always dangerous ground, leaning towards myth and legend, but as I said before the song has provoked debate.

I am happy to sing about Bonnie Prince Charlie, the brotherhood of man and the betrayal of working class principles in a single pub set. Its quite dangerous to see music as an expression of a single world view. I like the tune to 'Land of Hope and Glory' but abhor the sentiments. 'God save the Queen' was apparently a Jacobite hymn. I would like Scotland to be politically independant but I'd still watch the Proms for fun. and because some of the tunes are catchy. Show of Hands were good to watch live even though I prefer Phil Cunningham and Aly Bain

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:03 PM

Ay aye - Hwntw am byth, boyo!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jones The Steam
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:56 AM

Bloody Gog, is it?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:48 AM

Very true, Mad Person. The poor buggers have got Tom Jones to live down. I wouldn't mind swapping 'em Posh and Becks for Gavin and Charlotte, though. She's a belting lass - and a better singer!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: AlexB
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:42 AM

As an English person whose grandparents were Welsh I say, bloody hell, grow up people. English and Welsh both have good points and bad points, just like everyone else

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:39 AM

Diolch, Jonesy
(probably a bloody Gog though!)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jones the Steam
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:32 AM

As a Welshman it warms my heart that the bloody English are such a mixed up bunch of tossers.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:32 AM

I don't belittle people with McJobs; I feel sorry for them. My own daughter worked bloody hard for a shitty supermarket chain on the minimum wage for a year before going to university and I have worked on factory floors, farms and building sites.
It's my experience that most people with McJobs don't choose them - they do them because there's no other option. They tend to be the ones without the qualifications.
And as for choosing not to take exams...well, there's a whole lifetime for 'if only's.
There aren't many things in life that I'm proud of, but one was when I took a fellow labourer along to adult literacy classes so he could learn to read. He hadn't been to school (his family were travellers) and he felt crippled by his illiteracy and too ashamed at 23 to admit it, so we both went along to the free Camden council classes together. And there he was happy to dive headlong into that free, fascist corporate education system that you decry. He did his City & Guilds and last I heard he was running his own building business and doing very nicely. And determined that his own kids would go to university.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:27 AM

Jesus, I really wished I'd never started this soddin' thread.

I was hoping for some intelligent discussion about the song's lyrics, but this has decended into the usual "Any Song With About The English Liking Themselves Is Racist" crap (just like we have had intimated with Maggie Hollands etc songs), as well as the public thread-hijacking spat LC and countess richard are involved in. Hey girls - keep it to yourselves.

Bollocks to it then - I'm off. Sorry to anyone who tried to make an intelligent contribution. I officially disown this thread.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: AlexB
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:24 AM

"Unlike you Joan, my daughter can actually think for herself because she has NOT been brain-washed by the Corporate Education System, which goes hand in hand with the NVQ system and the whole caboodle of "No you can't have this job because those GCSE's mean nothing, you have to have THIS qualification from THIS year, which will cost £500...""

"Do not belittle people, because in doing that you only belittle yourself."

I think that you should take your own advice Lizzie.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM

>>>Even a home-schooled child can take exams. A kid with no qualifications in this country is condemned to a lifetime of McJobs, or a life on the dole. It's not the future I'd want for my child. But if it works for you...<<<

Gee...is it your schooling that's made you SO ignorant Joan?????? Or Ruth????? Or whatever your name is!

My child chose not to do exams. Of COURSE she can take exams...Let me say this very...slowly.....

You can take exams at ANY time of your life! You do NOT have to take 36 all at one go because the STATE tells you that you must!

Unlike you Joan, my daughter can actually think for herself because she has NOT been brain-washed by the Corporate Education System, which goes hand in hand with the NVQ system and the whole caboodle of "No you can't have this job because those GCSE's mean nothing, you have to have THIS qualification from THIS year, which will cost £500..."

She is a talented artist...and her work is already on sale in Sidmouth. If you had visited my page you'd find her on there...and probably your mouth would drop open in amazement!

I'm afraid she knocks spots off you...

She'd never be spiteful, bitchy, callous, unfeeling, unkind, downright unpleasant, or consider herself to be better than others.

I will not dictate my child's future, she is free to choose her own.

And also, many thousands of people work in McJobs. They are not second-class citizens because of that. Do not belittle people, because in doing that you only belittle yourself.

Thank you

Lizzie

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:08 AM

Blimey Guv.
Never realised that Lizzie was that disfunctional..
Hope she gets some help.... Used to laugh about her antics, and now I feel worried for her and her kids,

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:00 AM

Even a home-schooled child can take exams. A kid with no qualifications in this country is condemned to a lifetime of McJobs, or a life on the dole. It's not the future I'd want for my child. But if it works for you...

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:56 AM

From Ginger:

>>>Careful, Ruth - it's a slippery slope. She'll start by writing to the Daily Mail and it'll end up with this lot<<<

There you go again...with your National Front ravings Ginger...

And yet..YOU are happy to leave England's flag in their hands...

I think that says far more about you than it does about me.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

I've got to say, Captain...that link has an awful lot in common with some of the posts Mrs Route has made in the past. How interesting.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

Apologies....one slightly off-topic rant coming up. But I have a right to reply to the ill-informed comment below about my daughter.

Don't read if of tender disposition. :0)



>>>I don't know if I'd be bragging about myy skills as a home educator if I'd also stated elsewhere that my child left education without a single exam or qualification. In my book, that's tantamount to child abuse.<<<

I wasn't bragging.

Child abuse is when your child commits suicide Joanie, because they have been so pressured into taking exams that they can no longer think straight! Child abuse is when education ceases to be giving a child a love of learning and becomes something so fearful, so depressing, that the natural 'wanting' to learn is switched off. Home Educators called it 'Educide' Child Abuse is forcing children to learn things which they have no interest in. Child abuse is when teachers pass on the intolerable pressure they are under, from the Government, to their pupils. That pressure grows and grows as the child gets older....until eventually, on top of everything else, the children feel there is no point left in living really. After all if THIS is what happens at the start of your LIFE, what is the REST of it going to be like????

My daughter has two school colleagues who've committed suicide now.
Suicide amongst young people is becoming more and more common!

Our children are bullied by a tyrannical education system that cares not one jot for their souls! It is controlled by politicians, and businessmen who make a fortune out of The National Curriculum. It is also controlled by people who adore tests and examinations and who feel that everyone MUST learn what THEY dictate and do endless exams in those subjects!

BALDERDASH!!!

I have spoken to more children who've been battered by The System than you've had hot dinners Joan!

I've listend to EWO's pouring out their hearts to me, over what is going so wrong within the Education System...I've complained about teachers, many of whom seem to actually DISLIKE children, who feel it is there RIGHT to ritually humililate young people in front of their peers...or scream and shout at them, because again, they think they have a right to do that, purely because they're teachers!

PARDON ME???????????????

A Natural Teacher cares for children. They are able to pass on their love of learning so easily, because they respect the child and the child respects them.

So..NEVER talk to me of child abuse Joan...because every day in every school in this land there are hundreds, maybe even thousands of children who endure it every single day, whilst their parents either know nothing about it, or choose to turn away, because they believe that ONLY TEACHERS know about things...and that without exams you will die!

Well......You don't!

I REMOVED both my children for the daily child abuse they were enduring from some of their teachers and the 'system'

My eldest child CHOSE not to take exams. I have great respect and love for my children and for their wishes.

She is deeply intelligent, kind, spiritual, incredibly interesting and a hugely talented artist (who was told by her art teacher that her work was 'crap' by the way, that was the teacher's word) She also never judges anyone on their exams, because she knows that you can pass an exam, yet still be thick as a brick and not give a damn about learning or understanding anything. She has also had to deal with sad people like yourself Joan who cannot understand anyone who doesn't have or doesn't want to take an exam. She explains it all to them patiently, then steers well clear of the kind of people who judge her like that....and continues on with her love of learning.

10 GCSE's Doth Not A Human Being Make...but...it doth make the corporate education system very rich! And I wonder how many politicians have their fingers in the rich examination business?? Hmmmmm....

More children are damaged by 'education' than I can bear to think about...and it's because of stupid comments like yours, made by people who really don't give a damn, that the situation is allowed to continue, year upon year upon year!

And hey..don't even get me started on the paedophiles who are inside our school system! SHEESH!

And then...THEN you wonder why our children are cracking up all around us! THEN you wonder why they are hugely angry towards adults..why they so often want to drink themselves senseless?

In the next bit I am generalising here, as I realise that many kids ADORE school, but unlike you Joan I ALSO realise that for many children school is pure hell!

Tell me Joan would you take this:

Job Description:

13 years of possible hell await you, with no get out clause.
You'll receive no money for this.
You'll be spoken down to VERY often.
You'll have no right of reply.
You may well be bullied or abused.
You'll be given masses of work to take home each night, on top of your daily work.
You will be tested regularly, with immense pressure put on you to pass.
You MUST wear a hot, tight and uncomfortable uniform at all times.
You cannot remove ties, blazers or jerseys without permission, even in the hottest weather.
Your bathroom facilities will be HELL on earth but no-one will care.
Your dining areas may well be small and cramped, you may well have to eat elsewhere...like under the stairs.
Your holidays will be filled with work too.
You will never be allowed to learn what you WANT, only what you are TOLD and FORCED to learn.
If you are not interested in your work...Tough. There is no choice.
You cannot open a window without permission. Many windows will not open anyway.
You will be in a hot building, filled with glass, with no fans or cooling system and no water easily available to you.
People will constantly report on you and get your parents in to discuss you.
If you have dyslexia you will very often be told you are stupid, lazy or just plain troublesome.

At the end of this we KNOW that you will leave our school system a bright, happy, inspired and grateful young person, filled with the joys of spring....

Please apply to:
The National Education System of England
Dictators R Us House
Wetrulydon'tgiveadamnaboutyou Road
We-Know-Examination-ARE-More-Precious-Than-Life-Upon-Thames
England.


And now back to 'Roots' and a little bit more discussion of the song.

Good though isn't it? Where this song leads people....Amazing actually...


Lizzie

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:34 AM

Careful, Ruth - it's a slippery slope. She'll start by writing to the Daily Mail and it'll end up with this lot.