Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:07 PM

If anyone is interested in hearing Steve Knightley and Phil Beer being interviewed about Roots and their music in general, then there is a good 20 minute interview from Canadian Radio at the Canmore Folk Festival last weekend here. The links to the various artist interviews are down the bottom the page - pull the slider down.

http://www.ckua.com/artseen/index.html

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,John Amendall
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 12:58 PM

Now that was a good interview. It brought out a lot of the things about "English Roots" mentioned in this thread. For those into black humour, the story about being rung up to be told your kitchen ceiling has collapsed just before you are about to go on stage on another continent was quite funny too.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 02:59 PM

Two more 'England' links....

Maggie Holland singing 'A Place Called England' which I've known the words of for ages, and heard June Tabor singing, but, now, finally, thanks to Myspace, I, and you, can hear Maggie singing it herself:

"So rise up George and wake up Arthur..."

http://www.myspace.com/maggieholland

And here is Volume II of 'The Albion Chronicles'...Volume 1 being two posts above. It's one of the most comprehensive and enjoyable sites about England that I've yet found...and one which I'm starting to click into more and more:

http://thealbionchronicles2.tripod.com/

Also, thanks for the link to the Show of Hands interview in Canada, 'Guest Liam' above. Very interesting to hear. Hope the ceiling's fixed for when Steve gets home, although perhaps, as he missed out on the chaos of it happening, he should have to put it all back together when he gets home! ;0)



Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:10 AM

I was on my way to a gig the other day, where I would be playing tunes from all over the British Isles (and some French too) for "English" country dancing. My mate, who was driving, put on a CD of SoH doing a live gig which included this song. Two things that struck me at the time.

What would we consider to be an "English" musical style and has this been expressed in this arrangement?

Are the sentiments expressed really about "Englishness" or essentially just a rant about modern living in the UK?

My first impression when hearing the song was of a mixture of sympathy and concern. Sympathy because I agreed with some of the sentiments, concern because I felt there were aspects that could be taken as xenophobic, although having read the lyrics, I'm certain the author did not intend that.

I meet lots of people involved with folk music, song and dance who are notionally "English", who feel as if they are discovering some sort of English identity and pride through the tradition but are nevertheless confused about the whole identity thing. Am I English, British, European, Western or the global "North"?

I guess it doesn't really matter as long as when we are trying to celebrate what we feel connected to, we still value the worth of other people and what they feel connected to too.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 11:08 AM

The second question has been adressed in this thread, but scattered throughout 250 posts.

An english musical style though. How long have you got? I belive 'what is folk music?' is first in the queue of questions that will take some time to answer...

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 11:26 AM

i bought the album the other day at banbury folk festival and the title track was played on Mike Harding's last Wednesday.

First comment isn't it the point of the song that we are confused (speaking generally) about what is our identity and that we ape american values because we dont have our own. ?

and secondly its hardly xenophobic as it praises other cultures that retain there own identity through celebration and song. Cllr

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 11:36 AM

From Bunnahabhain

The second question has been adressed in this thread, but scattered throughout 250 posts.

Yes you are right, but sometimes reading through this thread, my eyes kept on glazing over.

An english musical style though. How long have you got?

Time enough, depending on how the topic is discussed.

I belive 'what is folk music?' is first in the queue of questions that will take some time to answer...

Sure (and I think I have more of a notion about this than what is an English style). Sometimes it seems like a pointless exercise...

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:31 PM

Hope no-one minds me reviving this thread. I've just started a new one about 'Roots' forgetting this one from some time back, which DMcG has just pointed out to me...

As the Lakeman and Harding thread was in er...danger of becoming a 'Roots' thread I thought it best to take mention of this song out of there and into it's own place..so here I am! :0)

Some pretty grotty comments were made about it in there. Speaking personally, I think 'Roots' is Steve Knightley's strongest and best song yet. Perhaps that's because I live in The West Country where our 'roots' are in danger of disappearing, possibly forever...

I'll just put the words in again to refresh memories or inform those who are new to this thread...Just wondered what others thought though....


So...do like it or not? Here are the lyrics and below is the Myspace link to Show of Hands site, where you can hear part of the song:

'ROOTS' by Steve Knightley.

"Now it's been twenty-five years or more
I've roamed this land from shore to shore
From Tyne to Tamar, Severn to Thames
From moor to vale, from peak to fen
Played in cafes and pubs and bars
I've stood in the street with my old guitar
But I'd be richer than all the rest
If I had a pound for each request
For 'Duelling Banjos' 'American Pie'
Its enough to make you cry
'Rule Britannia' or 'Swing Low'
Are they the only songs the English know?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
They're never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - they need roots

After the speeches when the cake's been cut
The disco is over and the bar is shut
At christening, birthday, wedding or wake
What can we sing until the morning breaks?
When the Indian, Asians, Afro, Celts
It's in their blood, below the belt
They're playing and dancing all night long
So what have they got right that we've got wrong?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than well ever know
Round the rocky shores of England

And a minister said his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl
It's pubs where no one ever sings at all
And everyone stares at a great big screen
Over-paid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estuary English, baseball caps
And we learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where weve come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, shoots - we need roots

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
Round the rocky shores of England"


Show of Hands Myspace page:
http://www.myspace.com/showofhandsuk



Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:33 PM

That's twice you have posted the same set of copyrighted lyrics on this site. Can I assume you have the composer's permission to do so?

---

We post lyrics here all the time, Giok - that's part of discussing them - "fair use," they call it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:37 PM

Hello MacKenzie!

Well Show of Hands openly encourage EVERYONE to copy their CDs and pass them round, so I'd very much doubt that they'd mind their words being put on here, or anywhere else, particularly as I've put Steve's name up there. Thanks for the concern though.

Oh..and by the way...you can read the lyrics for yourself over on Show of Hands Myspace page....just click on er...'lyrics'

:0)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 01:51 PM

I find the lyrics leave a rather unpleasant taste in the mouth; there's a feeling of a manufactured grievance about them. I imagine they would appeal greatly to readers of the Mail and the Express.
To be sure, the English are generally crap at their own culture, but there's an underlying whiff of Nick Griffin about this song, which I'm sure wasn't Knightly's intention.
Listening to the track on the myspace link above, the delivery is dire - about as musical as a metronome. Give me Billy Bragg and Maggie Holland any day.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:30 PM

>>>I imagine they would appeal greatly to readers of the Mail and the Express.<<<

Oh! Here we go!!!!!


>>>>there's an underlying whiff of Nick Griffin about this song, which I'm sure wasn't Knightly's intention.<<<<


Absolute bogwash!!!!! And deeply insulting to Steve Knightley too.

You see...that's what INCENSES me about some people! If you DARE to say that we've lost our way, that our 'roots' aren't doing very well, then out they come with their cries of "RACIST" "FASCIST" "DAILY MAIL READER" and now "DAILY EXPRESS READER" too!

In fact...'they' are also the most intolerant and judgemental of people I've ever come across, who accuse the tolerant English of er...being intolerant and judgemental!

Tell you what Ginger...come down to The West Country and you find me one teenager who has a West Country accent...and I'll treat you to a Cream Tea up at Jacob's Ladder Restaurant!!

GEEZ! All the kids down here, sound as if they've just stepped out of Bloomin' 'Eastenders'...which is FINE if they HAVE...but they haven't have they? They've been made to feel ashamed of how they talk and who they are and where they're from by a media and a Government who seem to be intent on turning us all into dumbed-down clones, who have no past, live for the present, and never think of the future!

Taken from 'Roots' by Steve Knightley, from above:

"....And we learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where weve come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back..."

There is NO identity amongst very, very many of the young people down here in The West Country.....they'd not have a clue about 'their stories or their songs' even though they live in a land FILLED with legends and heroes!

And there is NOTHING racist about wanting your flag to stand for all the right things and for taking a stand against the evil people of the National Front, who've held on to it for way too long!

I mean...are you SERIOUSLY telling me that you think the National Front SHOULD have our flag????????

Because let me tell you something Ginger! My Dad who'd be 92 now if he were still with us, went to war for England and for Britain and for a FREE WORLD! He did NOT go to war, so that several decades later, his flag, would be taken over by The National Front or Football Thugs whilst Apathetic Cowards stood idly by letting them take our flag whilst muttering "Oh forgive us for being English...we are not worthy to raise our heads! We deserve everything we get"

Hell's Bells and Buckets of Blood! I am SOOOOOO angry!

It's WAY overdue that the Good Guys came riding over the hill to take it back and to make it stand for England as she is today. This is a wonderful country! The Scots are allowed to be Scots, the Irish, Irish and the Welsh, Welsh....but the English????????

Oh NO! We're just a bunch of would-be racists, apparently, who have to be kept down by being told how terrible we all are!

Well guess what! We're not playing anymore...

We English are now of MANY colours, indeed we have been for centuries....I've Spanish blood flowing through my veins from my ancestors, but I consider myself English and I'm damned proud to be English too...and I'm also damned if I'm going to let people tell me, anymore, that having a passion for your country, her beauty, her history, much of which is GOOD by the way...is WRONG or DODGY!!!

To Hell With That...

Been there, been yelled at, been accused of everything already (none of which is remotely true) and I'm afraid that I still think that 'Roots' tells it like it is! Because we now have a couple of generations of people who haven't a clue about their history, apart from the awful bits...and EVERY country has awful bits...

If you keep telling a child over and over that they are bad and wicked, that child will grow up confused, unhappy and angry! If you do the same thing with an entire population, whilst also trying to wipe out so much of it's history....you'll get the same thing!

We have a Ministry of CULTURE which is more intent on covering this land in Casinos than in preserving it's Ancient Buildings or teaching it's population the wonders of England's Incredible History....and PLEASE...I'm talking both good and bad here.

SHEESH!!!!!

IT TRULY IS **OK** TO BE ENGLISH YOU KNOW!


Albion Lizzie! (NOT a racist!) STEAMING SMILEY!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:34 PM

You still haven't said how Sam is.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: AlexB
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:45 PM

Wow Lizzie, way to ruin a song I enjoyed.

And what is a West Country accent? I didn't think there was just a single one.

The thing about the song is it is too busy moaning about what we have lost, it fails to appreciate what we have. While on some levels I do agree with it, I think that the song is too busy saying, and not focusing so much on doing. Its funny that it was through folk a disillusioned kid began to accept and appreciate England at all. If I'm going to be ashamed about being English, you are the one thats going to make me feel that way.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:06 AM

Is there a confusion of handles here? Mad Person seems to be talking perfect sense, while Lizzie...
Lizzie - re-read what I wrote. My reaction was a subjective one to Knightly's song. I'm not 'anti-English' or anything like that. I happen to think that Maggie Holland and particularly Billy Bragg have a better understanding of the nature of Englishness today.
Much as many would like, there's no point rhapsodising about some prelapsarian idyll when swains swooned, maidens blushed and all was right with the world. It never existed. Your romantic take on that other Eden is the result of a lot of revisionism from the Edwardian period right up to the present. It doesn't actually do Englishness any favours.
The England to which I can relate is the England that gave us Lilburne, Winstanley, Annie Bessant, Elizabeth Fry, Mary Seacole and Quentin Crisp; the England that gave the world the trades union movement, a bill of rights and the concept of parliamentary democracy; the England of the abolitionists and of the Diggers. I don't give a stuff for the romanticised Arhturian twaddle and the Mabel Lucy Atwell packaging or bucolic bliss. Save the flowers and bowers for the National Trust souvenir shops and embrace real Englishness in all its complex and sometimes unpleasant nature.
Lizzie, my dear, you have to accept that fact that, like it or not, you are in the England of Jade Goody and not Goody Two Shoes. Sticking your head in a cloying bowl or rose petals will change nothing, and neither will listening to a whingeing dirge from a pop-folk group.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:25 AM

...forgive my ignorance of what may be an in joke, but who is Sam, and what is his relevance to this?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Sidmouth Grapevine
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:37 AM

How very odd. I could have sworn there were several posts on here last night explaining who Sam Reynolds is. Jointly with Lizzie Cornish, he appears to be the author of an inaccurate, derivative site called Albion Chronicles which has a page devoted to Sam'n'Lizzie, the very epitome of Mabel Lucy Atwell-type bucolic bliss. Many were inquiring what Ms Cornish's husband, one Mr Route of Sidmouth, thought about this.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:05 AM

"WE'VE LOST MORE THAN WE'LL EVER KNOW ROUND THE ROCKY SHORES OF ENGLAND" (taken from 'Roots' by Steve Knightley)


As I write this, I've just heard on the news that at 11.00am today The Ministry of Culture (HA!) will be announcing the site of our first ever, SUPER DUPER, Las Vegas Style Casino, holding over 1,250 machines, bigger than a football pitch....etc..etc..

Apparently, it may be Blackpool, or Cardiff Bay or even Greenwich.

Blackpool? Why there? The whole town is already one HUGE casino isn't it? And besides, it wouldn't stand out enough!

Cardiff Bay? Noooooo...way too far from The Museum and The Castle...again....Why put it there? After all most people go to Cardiff to look at the beautiful City Centre and the shops....

But Greenwich?

NOW THEN! NOW we're talking New Labour turkey aren't we!!!

Hey...we could knock down The National Maritime Museum and put it there! After all....WHAT is the point of Greenwich????? I mean REALLY! In this day and age...DO WE NEED GREENWICH anymore?

Nope!

So..let's set fire to The Cutty Sark! Let's trash and smash The Royal Observatory, The Queen's House, lets raze The National Maritime Museum to the ground at the same time...after all, they're in the same place...In fact, let's wipe out any beauty or history left in Greenwich at all.

No longer will we need to hear about Greenwich Meantime every again...because now..NOW we can call it Greenwich Casinotime!

Yup! We can all put our clocks back and forth every single year whilst we feed those one-armed bandits like there's no tomorrow!

After all WHY would we want this in England?

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/

http://www.greenwich-guide.org.uk/cutty.htm



When we can have THIS?

http://nevada.casinocity.com/lasvegas/


"WE'VE LOST MORE THAN WE'LL EVER KNOW ROUND THE ROCKY SHORES OF ENGLAND" (taken from 'Roots' by Steve Knightley)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:22 AM

Does that include BMW motorbikes and emigrees personal posessions?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:24 AM

From Ginger:

>>>>Lizzie, my dear, you have to accept that fact that, like it or not, you are in the England of Jade Goody and not Goody Two Shoes. Sticking your head in a cloying bowl or rose petals will change nothing, and neither will listening to a whingeing dirge from a pop-folk group.<<<<


The whole point that YOU are missing Ginge is that YOU seem to happily accept that you're living in Jade Goody's England.

I DO NOT! And....I NEVER WILL!

'Roots', in my opinion, is about getting people to open their eyes! To finally look aroud them and decide if they're happy to carry on being Apathetic Anoraks or take a stand and try to change things for the better!

Oh How I loathe this dumbing down!

I find it deeply disturbing, to the point of being sinister! And yet..you tell me that I HAVE to ACCEPT it??? Well blow that for a game of soldiers! SHEESH!!!!

A dumbed-down population is so very easy to control...Add to that a population who have no idea WHO they are or where they've come from, who have no passion for their wonderful history, but who just limp along in Orwell 1984 style, humming their latest 'Tunes For Proles' to the next casino, as they desperately try to win some money to survive and hey...those who seek to control have got it made haven't they!!!

We now live in a country that no longer has decently paid jobs, or manafactures anything, with a housing stock that only the mega-rich can really afford. Most people are too bogged down with stress and anxiety to even WANT to think more deeply about anything, other than how to pay the next bill. And whilst all that is happening...our country and our heritage is disappearing!

The link below is from the BBC thread about 'Roots' when the song was played on Cool As Folk...I still stand by every word I said in Message 3.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F2142825?thread=2495746


We CAN turn this around...but ONLY if enough of us want to.


Lizzie

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Happy to be as I am
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:44 AM

Lizzie

Try posting your views in "Cranks galore!" in the BS section. You will probably find some kindred spirits there. It's tailor made for you.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:38 AM

Lizzie.
Very simple question.
You seem to be having an Internet affair with someone in Canada called "Sam"....(Yes I have seen the web site.....Yuch!)
Surely you should be talking to your husband and children about this sad situation before telling the world about it....
The rest of us don't want to know....
Good luck with your future. .....Oh and don't mention SOH again...They are Crap.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:48 AM

I happen to think SOH are good and I like a lot of their songs. I like Roots too, but I don't consider it their best song. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

What I won't do is to try to persuade everyone else that SOH and their songs are good. If I've mentioned them, people can seek them out and listen to them for themselves if they feel inclined to investigate - that of course is entirely up to them.

I think trying to persuade others by repeatedly saying how great a band or singer is can just have the opposite effect to what is intended.

That's my view and, as I said, I'm entitled to it. Others are entitled to disagree.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:56 AM

Scrump.
I am GUEST just above you.
Well said. SOH are a fine duo... I just can't cope with the deification of them....
For Gods sake, It's just two blokes playing instruments and singing.
How will that change the Iraq conflict????
Very nice.....But,......Get real people.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:02 AM

Exactly Scrump. And anyone is entitled to like or dislike any band, I've never had a problem with that ever. But I'll stand up and defend Show of Hands or anyone else I believe in from the kind of venomous twits who follow me round.

But I DO have a problem with being told that I can't mention Show of Hands.

This all started back on the BBC board with the first ever post I'd ever made, anywhere. And I was attacked then because I'd DARED to mention Show of Hands in a good light. I had no idea of the 'Anti-Show of Hands' feeling amongst a small group of er...English Traddies

I'd only intended to ever post once, but I was so incensed at what was said, by this strange, but small band of people, who follow me around to this day, as you can see...that I stayed and stood up for them.

However, over the years, reading what they've said, it would seem to me that it's Steve Knightley in particular whom they want to 'silence'...and I'm afraid...that I won't let that happen, no matter what they choose to throw at me.

From Ginger....

>>>The England to which I can relate is the England that gave us Lilburne, Winstanley, Annie Bessant, Elizabeth Fry, Mary Seacole and Quentin Crisp; the England that gave the world the trades union movement, a bill of rights and the concept of parliamentary democracy; the England of the abolitionists and of the Diggers. I don't give a stuff for the romanticised Arhturian twaddle and the Mabel Lucy Atwell packaging or bucolic bliss. Save the flowers and bowers for the National Trust souvenir shops and embrace real Englishness in all its complex and sometimes unpleasant nature.<<<


ALBION HEART:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=112261952&MyToken=6d8610fd-a4e7-4f07-b04a-104448092e4e

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:09 AM

>>>>How will that change the Iraq conflict????<<<

Well of course, they did write 'Crooked Man' which I believe was about Bush, Blair and Hussein...and of course Martyn Joseph has also written 'How Did We End Up Here' which you can listen to here:

Martyn Joseph:
http://www.myspace.com/martynjoseph

And then...there's Neil Young...trying so hard in his own way to change things and make people aware, by gathering in protest songs from around the world for them to listen to:

Neil Young:
http://www.neilyoung.com/lwwtoday/lwwsongspage.html

ALL of these songs have the power to make a difference! Because they have the POWER to make people think! And if ENOUGH people start to think as ONE and take to the streets...as they did back in the Vietnam War...in which music played a big part in stopping....THEN things may start to change...

But of course...this time round the music has to come from US!!! Because the BBC and other major radio stations or TV channels now hide protest songs away!

And WHY do you think they do that?????????

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:29 AM

Because we have a de-politicised, self-obsessed culture which doesn't really care about politics or political music, and the media are driven by what their audiences want. Blame America if you want - personally, I blame Thatcher. But in any case, it's not a conspiracy.

So what have you been mobilised and politicised into doing for your culture as a result of listening to Show of Hands, Lizzie? Apart from gabbling on the internet, of course. What real-life action have you been spurred to take because you were inspired by the messages in their songs?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:38 AM

So Ruth. Sam is in Canada and having an affair with Lizzie. When did this happen? Did I miss an episode?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:44 AM

Relax Greenwich! ......for a little while longer anyway....

Manchester just got the Booby Prize!

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/economy/industry/regulation/manchester-host-first-super-casino-$464591.htm

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:45 AM

I think I'm beginning to understand The Archers. The forgetful, Alzheimer-stricken Jack Woolley who hasn't a clue what's going on is actually being played by a typecast match, Mr P Route of Sidmouth, right?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:53 AM

Thank you Ruth - a breath of fresh air!

The real reasons for English deracination have nothing to do with conspiracy, Lizzie; they lie in the educational system, the relentless commercial drive of popular culture and in the smug solipsism encouraged over the past few decades.
As such, I'm afraid no amount of writing in capitals is going to stop your local youths bouncing off the walls at chucking out time and swearing in estuarine English as they queue up for Carina's nighclub. As McNiece put it, "you can break the bloody glass, but you can't hold up the weather."

By the way, the link which was perhaps an answer to my earlier comment about my own heroes just seems to load a jumble of HTML with an embedded version of that wretched song. If there's any text there it's illegible.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:56 AM

Ruth is always a breath of fresh air, but Sam being in Canada is really bad news. The kids miss him so much.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:03 AM

What hope is there for a dairyman with a broken heart? He loves his snowboarding, after all. And there's a lot of snow in Canada.

Poor bloke. He thought he got the cowpat-y end of the stick when I dumped him...he can have no idea what he's in for now.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,billbunter
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:09 AM

I saw Show of Hands live in Germany. Among a bunch of bigger gigs they did a tiny midweek venue. I was staggered by their professionalism. Even though the audience was small they performed as though it was the Albert Hall. I am not a massive fan of their music, some good some mediocre. Live though, amazingly good. Intelligent erudite blokes too.

I think its obvious that the key sentiment of Roots is that England has lost is cultural heritage, perhaps in comparison to the other elements of the UK. The Union Jack line is deliberately emotive and makes a good play on a symbol traditionally associated with the right wing , allying it to a depth of feeling for older better days - certainly not older better right wing days. Its unfair to expect a song to address every postmodernistic issue in age where culture and heritage has been deliberately hijacked for political purposes. If the song stirs up interest and provokes debate perhaps that's good enough. Also a singer has got to sing about what he believes in - that's art. I discussed this briefly with Steve - I got the strong impression he is doing what he believes in. He is certainly doing it well. (And I was sober)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:13 AM

I saw them in Germany ( I am not a fan). Seriously in tune and in time. Couldn't fault them on those grounds at all. Professional, competent.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,billbunter
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:14 AM

woops, that anonymous was me again responding to a critique about Show of Hands being out of tune. Thought I was on another thread. sorry

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:39 AM

Lizzie, you know you weren't banned from the BBC boards because you praised 'Show of Hands'. Don't twist things.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:43 AM

Thanks Bill....at long last, a fair and erudite post about Show of Hands. Very glad you enjoyed them. Their intelligence and integrity was what drew me in as well. :0)

And Ginger, probably best not to mention the Education System to me...being a Home Educator these days. Believe you me I could rant for England, if not the world, about what is happening THERE!

But it's not just the education system is it?

It's everything that surrounds our young people these days.
Footballers such as Beckham, who are paid £5 million a WEEK for 5 years are the new 'heroes'...Pop Idol, Big Brother, "Pubs Where Nobody Sings At All"...Casinos For Culture etc etc...

...and of course....music like this from a young lad called Lil' Chris who's about 11 I think...He's on all the children's TV...even Blue Peter I believe..and you can hear him singing about 'Getting Enough' on his Myspace page...it takes a little while to load I'm afraid...Oh...and notice the cutesy little pink hearts all over the place..to draw the kiddies in...and then..when you've listened to him..sit back and wonder what kind of people are behind this sort of thing..and are wanting to draw our children into this? It's not hard to figure really....

http://www.myspace.com/lilemochris

And THEN you may start to understand why I rant all over the place and why I praise songs like 'Roots' up to the heavens..Because at least Steve Knightley and Phil Beer care and are trying, in their own way to get people to open their eyes and have discussions! Just as is happening on here...and THAT is what a brilliant song does...it opens doors and gets discussion going, no matter how heated it may be..

We're all to blame for what we now have around us, in a way, because we've all passively gone along with it.....

It's up to us though whether we continue to do that isn't it?

Sorry you can't 'see' Albion Heart by the way..shame, I think you may have enjoyed reading some of the links on there....ho hum!


Lizzie

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:58 AM

I'm sick of SOH and Roots. Surely there IS other stuff out there. Love to S and P.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: AlexB
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:59 AM

Lizzie, you know you just sounded like an old timer on one of those "kids today, it wasn't like that when I was a gel." tirades, right?

Culture changes whether we like it or not. Yes, we can fight tooth and nail to try and stop it, and sometimes we'll win, sometimes we'll lose. And there are people who are fight here, for instance everyone who is trying to over the licencing laws so that we can play music more freely. What you are doing, is spouting off a load of hot air. In fact, I'd liken you more to the christian who preaches hate in the name of Jesus and ruins the image of those who actually follow the religion properly.

"We've lost more than we'll ever know"

I bet any culture can claim that, because things are lost and gained all the time practically everywhere.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:03 AM

I'll repeat the question: if SoH's message is so important, and the reason WHY it's important is that it inspires people get up and DO something, what have you been mobilised and politicised into doing for your culture as a result of listening to Show of Hands, Lizzie? What real-life action have you been spurred to take because you were inspired by the messages in their songs?

I don't know if I'd be bragging about myy skills as a home educator if I'd also stated elsewhere that my child left education without a single exam or qualification. In my book, that's tantamount to child abuse.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:34 AM

Careful, Ruth - it's a slippery slope. She'll start by writing to the Daily Mail and it'll end up with this lot.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

Apologies....one slightly off-topic rant coming up. But I have a right to reply to the ill-informed comment below about my daughter.

Don't read if of tender disposition. :0)



>>>I don't know if I'd be bragging about myy skills as a home educator if I'd also stated elsewhere that my child left education without a single exam or qualification. In my book, that's tantamount to child abuse.<<<

I wasn't bragging.

Child abuse is when your child commits suicide Joanie, because they have been so pressured into taking exams that they can no longer think straight! Child abuse is when education ceases to be giving a child a love of learning and becomes something so fearful, so depressing, that the natural 'wanting' to learn is switched off. Home Educators called it 'Educide' Child Abuse is forcing children to learn things which they have no interest in. Child abuse is when teachers pass on the intolerable pressure they are under, from the Government, to their pupils. That pressure grows and grows as the child gets older....until eventually, on top of everything else, the children feel there is no point left in living really. After all if THIS is what happens at the start of your LIFE, what is the REST of it going to be like????

My daughter has two school colleagues who've committed suicide now.
Suicide amongst young people is becoming more and more common!

Our children are bullied by a tyrannical education system that cares not one jot for their souls! It is controlled by politicians, and businessmen who make a fortune out of The National Curriculum. It is also controlled by people who adore tests and examinations and who feel that everyone MUST learn what THEY dictate and do endless exams in those subjects!

BALDERDASH!!!

I have spoken to more children who've been battered by The System than you've had hot dinners Joan!

I've listend to EWO's pouring out their hearts to me, over what is going so wrong within the Education System...I've complained about teachers, many of whom seem to actually DISLIKE children, who feel it is there RIGHT to ritually humililate young people in front of their peers...or scream and shout at them, because again, they think they have a right to do that, purely because they're teachers!

PARDON ME???????????????

A Natural Teacher cares for children. They are able to pass on their love of learning so easily, because they respect the child and the child respects them.

So..NEVER talk to me of child abuse Joan...because every day in every school in this land there are hundreds, maybe even thousands of children who endure it every single day, whilst their parents either know nothing about it, or choose to turn away, because they believe that ONLY TEACHERS know about things...and that without exams you will die!

Well......You don't!

I REMOVED both my children for the daily child abuse they were enduring from some of their teachers and the 'system'

My eldest child CHOSE not to take exams. I have great respect and love for my children and for their wishes.

She is deeply intelligent, kind, spiritual, incredibly interesting and a hugely talented artist (who was told by her art teacher that her work was 'crap' by the way, that was the teacher's word) She also never judges anyone on their exams, because she knows that you can pass an exam, yet still be thick as a brick and not give a damn about learning or understanding anything. She has also had to deal with sad people like yourself Joan who cannot understand anyone who doesn't have or doesn't want to take an exam. She explains it all to them patiently, then steers well clear of the kind of people who judge her like that....and continues on with her love of learning.

10 GCSE's Doth Not A Human Being Make...but...it doth make the corporate education system very rich! And I wonder how many politicians have their fingers in the rich examination business?? Hmmmmm....

More children are damaged by 'education' than I can bear to think about...and it's because of stupid comments like yours, made by people who really don't give a damn, that the situation is allowed to continue, year upon year upon year!

And hey..don't even get me started on the paedophiles who are inside our school system! SHEESH!

And then...THEN you wonder why our children are cracking up all around us! THEN you wonder why they are hugely angry towards adults..why they so often want to drink themselves senseless?

In the next bit I am generalising here, as I realise that many kids ADORE school, but unlike you Joan I ALSO realise that for many children school is pure hell!

Tell me Joan would you take this:

Job Description:

13 years of possible hell await you, with no get out clause.
You'll receive no money for this.
You'll be spoken down to VERY often.
You'll have no right of reply.
You may well be bullied or abused.
You'll be given masses of work to take home each night, on top of your daily work.
You will be tested regularly, with immense pressure put on you to pass.
You MUST wear a hot, tight and uncomfortable uniform at all times.
You cannot remove ties, blazers or jerseys without permission, even in the hottest weather.
Your bathroom facilities will be HELL on earth but no-one will care.
Your dining areas may well be small and cramped, you may well have to eat elsewhere...like under the stairs.
Your holidays will be filled with work too.
You will never be allowed to learn what you WANT, only what you are TOLD and FORCED to learn.
If you are not interested in your work...Tough. There is no choice.
You cannot open a window without permission. Many windows will not open anyway.
You will be in a hot building, filled with glass, with no fans or cooling system and no water easily available to you.
People will constantly report on you and get your parents in to discuss you.
If you have dyslexia you will very often be told you are stupid, lazy or just plain troublesome.

At the end of this we KNOW that you will leave our school system a bright, happy, inspired and grateful young person, filled with the joys of spring....

Please apply to:
The National Education System of England
Dictators R Us House
Wetrulydon'tgiveadamnaboutyou Road
We-Know-Examination-ARE-More-Precious-Than-Life-Upon-Thames
England.


And now back to 'Roots' and a little bit more discussion of the song.

Good though isn't it? Where this song leads people....Amazing actually...


Lizzie

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

I've got to say, Captain...that link has an awful lot in common with some of the posts Mrs Route has made in the past. How interesting.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:56 AM

From Ginger:

>>>Careful, Ruth - it's a slippery slope. She'll start by writing to the Daily Mail and it'll end up with this lot<<<

There you go again...with your National Front ravings Ginger...

And yet..YOU are happy to leave England's flag in their hands...

I think that says far more about you than it does about me.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:00 AM

Even a home-schooled child can take exams. A kid with no qualifications in this country is condemned to a lifetime of McJobs, or a life on the dole. It's not the future I'd want for my child. But if it works for you...

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:08 AM

Blimey Guv.
Never realised that Lizzie was that disfunctional..
Hope she gets some help.... Used to laugh about her antics, and now I feel worried for her and her kids,

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM

>>>Even a home-schooled child can take exams. A kid with no qualifications in this country is condemned to a lifetime of McJobs, or a life on the dole. It's not the future I'd want for my child. But if it works for you...<<<

Gee...is it your schooling that's made you SO ignorant Joan?????? Or Ruth????? Or whatever your name is!

My child chose not to do exams. Of COURSE she can take exams...Let me say this very...slowly.....

You can take exams at ANY time of your life! You do NOT have to take 36 all at one go because the STATE tells you that you must!

Unlike you Joan, my daughter can actually think for herself because she has NOT been brain-washed by the Corporate Education System, which goes hand in hand with the NVQ system and the whole caboodle of "No you can't have this job because those GCSE's mean nothing, you have to have THIS qualification from THIS year, which will cost £500..."

She is a talented artist...and her work is already on sale in Sidmouth. If you had visited my page you'd find her on there...and probably your mouth would drop open in amazement!

I'm afraid she knocks spots off you...

She'd never be spiteful, bitchy, callous, unfeeling, unkind, downright unpleasant, or consider herself to be better than others.

I will not dictate my child's future, she is free to choose her own.

And also, many thousands of people work in McJobs. They are not second-class citizens because of that. Do not belittle people, because in doing that you only belittle yourself.

Thank you

Lizzie

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: AlexB
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:24 AM

"Unlike you Joan, my daughter can actually think for herself because she has NOT been brain-washed by the Corporate Education System, which goes hand in hand with the NVQ system and the whole caboodle of "No you can't have this job because those GCSE's mean nothing, you have to have THIS qualification from THIS year, which will cost £500...""

"Do not belittle people, because in doing that you only belittle yourself."

I think that you should take your own advice Lizzie.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:27 AM

Jesus, I really wished I'd never started this soddin' thread.

I was hoping for some intelligent discussion about the song's lyrics, but this has decended into the usual "Any Song With About The English Liking Themselves Is Racist" crap (just like we have had intimated with Maggie Hollands etc songs), as well as the public thread-hijacking spat LC and countess richard are involved in. Hey girls - keep it to yourselves.

Bollocks to it then - I'm off. Sorry to anyone who tried to make an intelligent contribution. I officially disown this thread.